Hi all,
I found this site by chance and I have to say that it is helping me try to sort out a whirlwind of a week. I had what I and everyone around us considered a perfect marriage of 12 years (no kids, thankfully). Yet, I had been suspecting W of straying with a friend of ours, and had even confronted it once a couple weeks ago, which she denied. Tuesday night we came home late, and she told me she had been seeing him for around three weeks intimately. She was in love with him, and needed time to be with him. I was overwhelmed, as I didn't even imagine that it was anywhere near that level.
I told her I couldn't wait in our house while she spent a couple weeks with him 'sorting it out'. I left the next morning to drive 480 miles to stay with my parents and think. We spoke several times while I was driving, and I somehow instinctively (I hadn't found this site yet) managed to avoid any LB's, tried to be calm and understanding. She said she understood I need time to cope, but she wanted me to come home and try to make it work. I said I'd return on Friday and do everything I could to repair what damage there was.
I got back about 5 hours before she would get home from work, and found this site. I spent the next hours in enlightenment at what a jerk I had been the last year, getting too wrapped up in work, lying and hiding I was smoking again, not listening to her enough, etc. I realized that the OM was meeting some of her deepest needs that I wasn't, and apparently doing it well.
When she got home, I immediately said I forgave her for everything, I had been an idiot for not doing the right thing. She said she realized that that was what made her look. I asked her for what amounted to plan A, to give us another chance. She said she'd try, but she was in conflict about who she wanted to be with, and didn't know if she could avoid contact right now.
We ended up going to New York City for the weekend, and had a wonderful day on Saturday, the best in several months. But as the evening wore on, she wanted to talk some more, and said she still hadn't decided who she wanted to be with. This was a long conversation with some brutal honesty on both of our parts, but I managed to keep my head and only request that we try. I wasn't judgmental, and avoided LB's. I told her if she couldn't avoid contact with him, and she wanted to try being with him, that she would get no contact from me. That was only fair since that was what I was asking of her with me. She agreed that that was what was needed, but again didn't know who she wanted. We left it at that for the night.
This morning she said she needed to talk to him one more time, when we got home, which I allowed. When she returned she said she wanted to try with him for a week or two, would I take her back if she changed her mind? I said to call me when she was ready, otherwise e-mail me if she needed anything from the house, and I'd make sure I wasn't there.
This has progressed rather quickly, and I'm surprised and disappointed that she wouldn't want to try for a little longer with us first, but I think I handled it as well as I could. I just wondered if anyone had any feedback. I tend to think that the speed of the progression doesn't bode well for us, is it unusual for things to go this fast? I've apologized numerous times for the things I've neglected, and asked (not demanded) for another chance, but it seems that he's given her a whole lot of deposits in her love bank for me to contend with. I can only hope that there’s more things that I was still giving her than he could ever hope to.

My suggestion is to give it time.<p>For an analogy
If someone came up and hit you 5 times a day for a year and then stopped. They then came up to you and said they were sorry 10 times a day for a few weeks would you be very receptive.<p>It is her decision to have the affair. You can't control it and you can't stop. Only she can do that. I would say try your best to do plan A for a lot longer if you can and hope and pray.<p>Try to keep your eye on the prize. Remember that piece of poetry you see in the stores "Don't Quit"
Try to keep it mind. I wish you luck

But, now that she's with him, aren't I supposed to avoid contact? Or do I continue to try to contact her? Wait till she contacts me? I've only had a day to start to learn the concepts.

Remember that while she is involved with the A you can't really make any deposits in her love bank. I'd step back for a minute and rethink your strategy. When you find out about an A, you want the WS(wayward spouse) to immediately realize that they are wrong and recommit to the marriage. This does not always happen. If you've been reading the material - and you should read SAA (Surviving an Affair) you would know that A's are like addictions to drugs or alcohol. The WS has to make the decision to quit and return, but it is EXTREMELY hard for them to do it, and probably a week or 2 with OM will not make her want to come back because you are out of sight out of mind and he is going to wine and dine her and fuel the flame of an already exciting relationship. <p>I'd keep in Plan A - which should be used to lay a foundation for Plan B. She will need to see sustained changes in you. Hopefully both of you can still live in the same house- it's harder to Plan A not living together because WS has the freedom to do whatever she wants without feeling as guilty because you're not around and it's harder for her to see the changes that you've made. <p>It sounds hopeful, but don't push her away unless you're ready for the relationship to end. You can also try reading Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson if you prefer that approach. Good Luck. K

Unfortunatly, she has already decided to not stay here. She does want to stay in touch, but as you say, she's with him, and he gets the advantage, when he already has the upper hand. Would suggesting that she read some of this information here be a good thing, or not?

Amazing. She decides to continue to have an affair with this OM and tells you to wait while she sees if he is the right guy for her and you agree to wait. You must be very much in love with her to agree to this but you need to step back from this picture. Do you think that your wife respects a man who can stand by while another man is screwing her. You blame yourself for not fulfilling her ENs. What you must understand is that this does not justify her having an affair. It does not justify her spending a few weeks with this OM sorting it out. She has an obligation to you as a MW to either help rebuild or leave the marriage.
By condoning this adulterous behaviour you are contributing to the death of your marriage.

JRL.
a couple of things that i think you should remember. her cheating is not your fault! she made a concious decision to perform a despiciable dishonest act. she could easily of handled the matter differently. instead she decided to act out in one of the most damaging and destructive ways that a person's supposed "best friend in life" could ever think to act.<p>the state your marriage happens to be may be partially your responsiblity, it's true, but that is no excuse for your wife to be doing what she's doing! further, the fact that you have behaved with civility and understanding demonstrates that at least one person in the relationship knows how to act appropriatly.<p>what to do? at this point it would sound like plan B is the place to be. but from my perpective, that is always the place to be once it's been established that the spouse is cheating.<p>but then i must admit; i would have no room in my heart and no patience in my life to plan A a cheater and betrayer of my love and trust ever...that's just me! and understand, i don't claim that this is attitude is right for everybody, just for me.<p>however, to go on, being where you are right now, i would be very independent...very much so indeed! i would be totally unavailable to her on any level. and make no mistake...i'll bet anything that she'll try any way she can to stay in contact with you...she will not willingly give up the security of having you to come back to after she's had her little fling.<p>no sir, if were me, i would be totally unavailaile and doing everything i could think of to do to make myself a more interesting, worthy and mysterious man. <p>if my hair was long, i would cut it short. if i were heavy, i would starve myself and work out in the gym until i was noticibly thinner and more muscular. i would take courses, find hobbies, go to the theatre and the movies and be sure to make new friends. i would be sure to be away from home every weekend and almost every night. and if you see mutuale friends, be sure that they notice how happy and well ajusted you are.<p>here's another idea. contact your local community or church theartre group and get involved. you don't have to go on stage to help out. there awe hundreds of things that the group needs help with so pitch in, make new friends and become part of something creative. <p>or how about going on a cruise? boy are they cheap now and think about a week away, visiting exotic ports of call. just do something! take action!<p>now on the other hand, if you want her back on any basis what so ever, then it's a different story. sit home and sulk; waiting for a kind word or thought that she just might decide to throw your way... but i can't help feeling that if she gets it into her head that you've bought into her having the right to enjoy this disgusting little interlude, she will have you draped and measured for the role of dupe hence forth and forever! <p>so remember...no needy behavior, no anger and no negativity. concentrate on yourself and make yourself a more interesting and mature man. and who knows, maybe you'll decide that she's not good enough for you! LOL <p>good luck.
poodlepapa

Thanks for the replies. As I said, it's still very new (about 6 hours since she left as I write this) and it's been an overwhelming week to go this far. I do love her deeply, at one time we were very happy together, and for a large part of our marriage. But you're right that I can't condone it. I've been sitting here wondering what the hell I was thinking. I was trying so hard to be non-combative and positive I lost sight of what I was allowing to happen. Would it be negative at this point to tell her I might not be able to take her back? It would be honest. I'm really having second thoughts about how selfish she's being, when I tried everything I could to get past the first offences. I guess I need to sleep on it and see how it goes.

jrl,
Welcome to MB, it seems that you has read basic concept, if not please do so. The most critical time is right after D-day. You have to make a decision ... if you want to give it up or to work on it. You did the right thing by sleeping it for now. I would add for you to learn HNHN (EN), plan A & LB then make a decision. Some of the reply, specially from "poodlepapa/barry" is not reflecting MB at all. He is a very sorry soul, he destroyed his M. Take his advice if you want to give up.<p>You will see that MB is just a concept like any other but I do believe MB is the safest approach. I will be in the court right now for Dv if I follow Dobson's (marriage's boundry). Again there is no plan B if you don't have enough time for plan A.<p>Post question here if you have any doubt, there are many in here that has similiar story like yours and work it out. Again, educate your self then make a decision. Good luck.

There's no question I decided to make it work on D-day, and I still want to. But I have to have some sort of boundry for what I can put up with (I am not a doormat) and I think it's reaching that point. Moving in with him for the holidays is pretty drastic. I know she's not in her right mind, and I try to be patient. It seems that even for MB to work, she has to want to try a little, and I'm not getting that from her. I think she's considering plan D, and is giving it a test fit. I just have to take it day by day.

jrl,
The road to fulfilling M is very narrow when A is involve, you have to handle it with care. One wrong move could hinder the recovery. Not every one could take this 'coaster ride, plan A/B is not for everyone. Like our WW choose to have A (selfishness), we choose to do the opposite (unconditional love). You are not a doormat neither do I, yet I let my WW goes w/ OM. I told her, despite whatever history she rewrote, she knows that I love her and I give her this love of letting go and hope when she realizes I am still here to work on M. However first thing first. A has to die for MB to work, it has to die naturally. Make her stare at her chooice ! and take yourself out of her path. The more you manipulate and interfere with A the harder the road to fulfilling M. Meanwhile you work on plan A to get all issue(s) out also. You could do plan A from far. The boundry is defined by WW !!!, that is why Dobson's tough love won't work, you could try and state the fact but no demand (LB).<p>I know she's not in her right mind, and I try to be patient.
Yes, she is "insane", you forgiven anything she does even before she does it. Either she will stop the 'coaster ride with ending A and working on M or you stop it (plan B) ... no one could ride this 'coaster forever.<p>.It seems that even for MB to work, she has to want to try a little, and I'm not getting that from her.
Yes it is, in MB both party has to be willing participant (POJA) however you are not even there at all. You are in plan A !!!, A has to die first !!!. Do not expect anything at this point. It depends on your M issues to begin with, it might be a long way to show/convince WW that you are changed or capable of change.<p>I think she's considering plan D, and is giving it a test fit.
Some WW like mine want to end this 'coaster ride w/ Dv, they will try anything to push you out. Also OM might be impatience. Either way if you do plan A properly, she will be confused like hell ... mine stop Dv screaming and fence sitting on this M. If she want plan D, let it and nothing you could do but plan A'ng anyway. The bright side of it she will compare you with OM (living w/ new person has a lot to take) and the lure of A will subside. She might even see that OM has the same habit (LB) as your but you show her you could change by doing plan A.<p> I just have to take it day by day.
We all are. However you could perfected your plan A by working on the issue(s).<p>I pray the best for you.

redhat,
Thanks for your kind words and support.<p>she knows that I love her and I give her this love of letting go and hope when she realizes I am still here to work on M

I have made this clear as well. The longer she stays away, the more difficult it is for me to accept, but I believe even after months I would still be able to try (plan B will need to come into play sometime during this). I'm just trying to be as patient and as positive about us as I can be. <p>A has to die for MB to work, it has to die naturally<p>This is probably the hardest part for me, as it makes me feel a little like second choice. I know that plan A'ing helps alot to shift the tide, though.<p>However you could perfected your plan A by working on the issue(s).<p>Since I'm still in the house, I can work on one of my failures well, which was helping with household duties, as I'm responsible for all of them now. I'm working on everything else as best as I can long distance.<p>I've ordered SAA, and will be deeply reading it when it arrives.<p>I pray the best for you.
Thanks, and I for you

jrl,
Go to local library, they might have SAA ... don't have to wait or go to B&N or Border, w/ a cup of latte you are set for a while. It will help you to get past this holiday.<p>You are not her second choice, you are her better choice [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>Happy Holiday ...<p>[ December 24, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Hi, <p>They guys here look like they are supporting you well. Remember this.... keep your diginity and self respect. <p>If she is out there making a fool out of herself, your telling her will do no good. It may even push her farther. However, bettering yourself so that you are more attactive than that sleeze bag OM will eventually be seen. It takes a while for fog to lift and clear thinking to be restored. <p>While you are looking for books, his needs/her needs, surviving an affair and another book: Love must be tough (this one is by Dr. James Dobson). These are all good for strenghten you and not adding or enabling the A. The WS tries to use the BS as an excuse. REmove all the excuses. Then they are left with the naked truth and the naked OP starts looking a 'bit small' of a person. LOL! <p>Take care, you are actually doing quite well in such a short time. <p>L.

A couple of new updates. I called some old friends we hadn't seen in a while after she left yesterday for some support. They came over for a while and invited me out for Christmas Eve, so I wouldn't be alone. (I've found out how many true friends I have the last few days, including here. When it happens you think that no one can possibly know what your going through, but reading this forum show me I'm not alone) They wrote out directions to their new place, and gave me their new number (I called him at work). She came over this morning to pick up a few things. She saw two empty brandy snifters (only one of them and myself like brandy) saw the directions and phone # (I didn't write a name, I knew who it was) She said she was getting off early and would be over in the afternoon. I asked her to feed the pets, as I was going out for the evening. She got upset and asked if I was having an affair! I told her who I was going out with, and she asked if those were thier directions on the counter. I said of course. I didn't even think until after it happened how it looked, but the fact that she didn't like it gave me some small hope.
I got off early today as well, and called her to see if she was still at work. I had left my asthma inhaler at home, and she has one in her purse. I asked if I could stop by and borrow it. She said she was on her way out also, but I was five minutes away and she would wait. When I got there I asked if she would like to come over tommorrow and open presents (We had agreed to wait until after the first of the year earlier) She said she'd like to, but she didn't know if she could. So we parted again. A few minutes later she called and said she really wanted to! So I get some great plan a time in the morning.
I keep getting signs that there's hope. I just need to decide where the line between plan a, and enabling her to continue living with this bum is. And I have to stay on the good side without LB's. Wherever that ends up being, I don't even want to come close to an LB tommorrow, as Christmas is her favorite time of year, and I hope to sway her in her thinking as gently as possible.
I would like to ask her about why she would be so upset at me having an affair as she's waist deep in one herself, with no visible remorse. Would this be bad? I know if I did have one it would be devestating to any hope of us, But I think I gave her a tiny glimpse of my side for a second, and it may have stung a little. If I do ask it will be later in the week, as I said, I don't want to have any negative emotions at all tommorrow, if it can be helped.

jrl,<p>Go for it ... be ready like your prompt night. Never talk about relation or A unless she brought it up. If you are not ready and you feel that you might tripped by it, avoid it. You could tell W that "let's have a nice Christmas day and forget about A problem for the day and will find time in later day to discuss it". [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
Since her OM is a bum what are you afraid of ?. Let her find out herself. The most important thing is no LB and plan A'ng your butt out. She choose to leave let her choose to come back herself. That is one of the MB's requirement to have A dies naturally to rebuild fulfilling M.<p>Keep us posted and behave tomorrow.

First the positive:
We had a nice christmas, she was here for a couple hours, and then left. She's still calling me a few times a day, and I took her to pick up her car from the shop. I got a nice e-mail from her as well. I still feel in my heart she wants to go, but she's torn. I encouraged her to call an old friend to talk to, to help her sort things out.<p>And the downside:
The rest of christmas pretty much sucked. I went out with some friends for a while, but I've been clinging to them for a few days, and I didn't want to wear out my welcome, so I came home. There was several messages on the home machine that were obviosly someone's cell phone accidentally dialing when it was in a pocket or purse, everyone sounded like they were having a great time, but it was muffled. She told me she was going to a bar where a guy we know worked, I assumed that it was her phone, as she does it sometimes on my cell. I sunk lower. I was really low this morning, and told her I was really sad. I made a major LB and told her I didn't think I could wait much longer for her to decide where she wanted to be and mentioned the "D" word. She definatly changed her tone, and I immediatly felt really bad. I told her I was sorry I said it, and I was trying to deal with her living with him. I still wanted us to work, and then I told her about the messages. She said it wasn't her, she only had my cell on speed dial. So I really blew that one.<p>
I'm having a really difficult time adjusting to these changes so quickly. It's only been a week since D-day, and it's all so new. I still can't grasp that she's not here. I reach for her every morning when I wake up, and realize she isn't there. I really want to try to make us work, but the wounds are still so fresh, it's hard to stay positive when I talk to her. She was always my best friend, even in the last year when things weren't so good. We hung out at the same pub after work quite a bit (for the last five years). But that is where she met the OM, and they still go there all the time, so I don't even have that confort. I either hang out at home alone, or go to a place where I know no-one. All of my friends are couples, and I don't want to intrude on their lives too much, I know they need their time as well. They are all supportive right now, and I want to keep it that way.
Part of me wants to try and move on, and try to heal (Taker talking?). But most of me wants to give it all I've got, before it's too late. I know I have to let the A end on it's own, but it isn't easy at all. I know he has a strong advantage right now, if we didn't have a strong relationship for many years, I think she'd be gone already. (if we didn't blow it the last year she'd still be here) I mean I know she is gone, but she tells me she doesn't know if she wants to stay with him or come back to me. Is it an LB to ask her what the issues are? What's keeping her on the fence? She said she's afraid of making the wrong decision, but she hasn't elaborated. I told her yesterday that not choosing while she's there is still a choice. Which wasn't an LB I think, we were in a pretty deep conversation.
Plus we have all of the finacial stuff to deal with, which I know is an issue with her. I just don't want her to stay because she doesn't want to give up the house or something. She tells me that they have a really good relationship (we swore to be honest) and she really loves him. I think he's a dirtbag, but my opinion is biased [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]
So I'm wondering how far I can go. If she's really happy, and really believes she won't be with me, I feel like I should let her go. I don't want to beat my head against the wall. I know she still loves me on some level, as she tells me, and does show it. I just can't imagine right now going on like this for a month, let alone six, or a year. It's been such an intense week. I keep in mind often Redhat's sig. In ten years I want to look back and say I did my best with no regrets. I'm looking at my own motives. I do love her more than anything, and I want to be back where we were. I don't wan't to lose my best friend. I don't want to lose the life we had together. But is what I want fair to both of us? How long do you go on? If you believe she's happy can/do you let her go? Is it really possible she's found someone that makes her as happy or happier than I can, or ever did? I think I'm a strong (weak)enough person to let her go, and I also think I'm a strong (weak) enough person to try to keep her as long as I can. I want to be strong, but I question my motives. I'm confused as to the right path.

jrl,
You may want to investigate DivorceBusting.com, as I think of Davis' approach as something between Harley's plan A and plan B, which sounds like what you may need.<p>I used this approach when my H left, and he was only gone 6 days, but unfortunately, I hadn't read SAA yet, so I made the mistake of letting him return without a marital recovery agreement in place. I emphatically recommend that you do not let her come back without first reading SAA all the way through. Plan A has sucked for me, and I could have avoided that if there was a specific recovery agreement in place.<p>Anyway, Davis' approach involves no talking about the A or M unless at WS's request, just kind of a friendly upbeat attitude, not being too available, working on yourself, basically letting the WS do any initiating of contact and keeping everything light and easy, but please read what you can about it to get the whole concept.<p>For instance, I did not answer H's calls and only returned every second or third one, explaining that I had been out "with friends" (and I was--I stayed BUSY). I couldn't talk very long because I "had an appointment", etc. Never be the one to bring up the M. Never be the one to initiate contact. Always be the one to end contact when it happens. If there is a hug, you be sure to pull away first. That sort of thing. Leave her wanting more of whatever she wants from you.<p>This approach avoids the doormat feeling that sometimes happens in plan A. However, unlike plan B, you do have a chance to live the changes you are making in your personal growth and if the WS chooses, she can see that for herself if you allow contact once in awhile. You do not remain at her beck and call--you live your own life and make sure she sees a vital, vibrant, exciting, desirable person just like she did when she was attracted to you in the first place. In fact, that is the best way to do it--Recreate yourself in that image.

Sounds like a good book, my local library has that one, I'll stop by tomorrow and check it out. Thanks! I'm still waiting for Mr. UPS man to deliver my SAA, it was supposed to be here today :-(

jrl,
Learn as much as you can then decide ... there are Dobson's tough love approach & others like the one conqueror mention. However some WS you can not push them and worst when they are at the top of A. MB is very conservative and take a very safe approach.
You go on as long as you can until then you have to put plan B. But before plan B you have to make sure that your plan A has no holes on it and you are ready emotionally. MB will provide you with peace in mind when you have to walk from M. For now, give it time ... patience, time and consistent. As you know, M stats against WS !. They regret that they did not give enough effort. As for motive, yes we want happy M and we convince ourself that we could do it with W, given a chance to do it. Meanwhile, let A dies naturally & "fix" your flaw in your current M. If you have done it and W stil in la la land, the she is not yours to begin with.<p>Happy Holiday<p>[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>