My background.<p>I bought "His Needs, Her Needs, and Love Busters" and put them in my wife's van while she was at work along with a sympathy card for the anniversary of her fathers death 11 years ago and a note saying I thought these books might interest her and if she wanted to pick one to read and I would read the other. Then we could switch. I heard back from her today and she kept His Needs, Her Needs and said she began reading it and gave me the Love Busters copy. Nothing more was said.<p>My background kind of covers where we are at so please read, I took next week off for vacation and asked for the kids since they are out of school. Usually I have them on Saturday night. They spent two days at my folks this week so she did not see them much and made a big deal out of keeping them this weekend so she could spend time with them. I had invited the whole family to go roller skating this evening and she said she did not want to go but to go ahead and take the girls. I did for two hours and we had a great time. I asked what they did last night with their mom and they said they wanted to play a game but that she went out somewhere with her "friends" and did not get home until late. This after getting them books and making a big deal about seeing them! The girls told me that she said today they were not getting an apartment but a 3 bedroom house!!! She works part-time and we are signing bankruptcy papers Monday morning!<p>What in the world is happening? I am trying so hard to not bring him up. She did tell me about going to his house Christmas day after leaving the wonderful night and morning we had together. I just cannot fathom sharing your heart that way or pretending. I guess I needed to vent and meet some support. I never thought I could forgive a sexual affair and the thought of an emotional one is very painful also. I neglected her EN and obviously she went elsewhere, I have accepted this and spent two months showing her that this is the most important thing in our lives. I know I need to back off but I cannot stop wondering how much lying is really going on.<p>I guess I will give you all a chance to respond and I hope I have made sense. My heart hurts and I'm tired of crying but I cannot seem to just pick up and go on. How do you all hold it together?<p>Thanks
Scott<p>[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: ScottP ]</p>

ScottP<p>I felt I needed to share. I read your "background" figured you'd understand. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My heart hurts and I'm tired of crying but I cannot seem to just pick up and go on. How do you all hold it together?<hr></blockquote>We don't. Take a look at my thread sometime. Holding it togeather is not what I would call it. We play the hand we've been dealt. Sometimes it's easier than others. Try this on for size: "One day at a time". Yes it is familiar to me too. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>She did tell me about going to his house Christmas day after leaving the wonderful night and morning we had together. I just cannot fathom sharing your heart that way or pretending.<hr></blockquote>I think this is what RedHat and Orchid would call "waffling" I have had to get used to it. They tell me this should pass. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have accepted this and spent two months showing her that this is the most important thing in our lives. I know I need to back off but I cannot stop wondering how much lying is really going on.
<hr></blockquote>Backing off, that't realy the hardest part. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. (One more for RedHat) I'm learning to show the improvements in myself without pushing the R. Almost like not showing my intrest in M, just being a better me around my W. Hopefully showing a better me will make her intrested in M, then she can come back and "fix" it. I don't know sounds like reverse psychology to me, but it seems to be working. The lying issue will have to wait it's turn. Untill she can commit to working on your M she may see no reason to be open or honest with you. This is somthing she has to want to do. You can play detective if you'd like. (Don't ever let her know what you learned from this) It may help you understand what your up against and give you better insight as to how to deal with her. That's your call. I'm not sure I could handle all the things I would learn that way.<p>Best of luck, there are a lot of MBs behind you in this.<p>Thanks
Rev

rev, <p>I have been reading your thread and I can be empathic, although your situation is much more concrete than mine. I sometimes wish it would all come out in the open. I feel like a jerk when I ask my kids something and they know that it hurts to tell me the truth. I deep down want to believe it's only and emotional affair but I have butterflies in my stomach telling me there is more. I have been on Zoloft since she left,(double the dose I used to take) and took Prozac for 7 years after becoming Clean & Sober. I do not feel any relief. Some moments I am angry, others I am jealous.
I do know that the most important thing to me is giving my best shot at showing her I am no longer neglectful and having her fall in love with me again. I do not believe I should give up my night school though as we both agreed that is the only way for me to get out of my career of 12 years that I no longer enjoy (Retread Plant Foremen for a company that recalled tires [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )
I am going to school to enter the IT industry but at 36 I am a little old to be getting started. I did great earning the four MOUS certs and am studying for CompTia's A+ and Net+ currently. Wish me luck, it takes time but I think I spent a lot of time beyond what school requires when I should have been working on EN's. Funny how it takes a brick falling on your head to realize what really matters.
I am really scared that while waiting for her to make up her mind she may just file for Divorce after this bankruptcy thing is over. I make what you do which isn't much but in WA. state I could really get socked. My counselor told me I should file to get prepared but that goes against everything I have read here and I do feel it would negate any chance of reconciliation.
Do you think giving her the HNHN book was a good idea, especially if she is reading it?? She is also seeing a counselor who it turns out is a guy she went to high school with! The OM is a guy I went to high school with (actually his older brother). What a small world.
Thanks for your reply rev, I think we have a lot in common. I will be following your story and keep you in my prayers.<p>Scott

ScottP,<p>Don't take this wrong, Drugs are a good thing. Hopefully they will take the edge off. They won't stop you from feeling what you need to feel, but they will help you get throught it. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I deep down want to believe it's only and emotional affair but I have butterflies in my stomach telling me there is more.<hr></blockquote>I get the same feling. My W comes to the house when she gets offf work at 1:00 am, stays for 15-45 min then goes back to OM's house for the night. She keeps reasuring me that it is just a place to stay. (you'll eventualy get to this in my thread) <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I do know that the most important thing to me is giving my best shot at showing her I am no longer neglectful and having her fall in love with me again.<hr></blockquote>There is only one thing to say about that. Stay Focused! This isn't going to be easy, but it will be worth it. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I do not believe I should give up my night school though as we both agreed that is the only way for me to get out of my career of 12 years that I no longer enjoy<hr></blockquote>Has your W filled out the Emotional Needs Questioneer (ENQ)? If so, how important is the financial support need. I ask this because I see that you could be headed for a train wreck. I am in IT. Untill my W left I was working 50-65 hrs a week. It is easy to do in this field. I got into IT as a hobie, then got a job, then I let it ruin my time with my W and family. Yes, I have an adictive personality too. If you watch yourself it is a great career, if you don't, it can become "the other woman" figuratively speaking of course. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I spent a lot of time beyond what school requires when I should have been working on EN's.<hr></blockquote>I think I just coverd this. Just keep an eye on the time. It doesn't matter if it's school or work, it is still time. I don't mean to discourage you. I think what you are doing is great, as long as it falls in line with the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA). <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Funny how it takes a brick falling on your head to realize what really matters.<hr></blockquote>Notice that did you? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I had to find out the hard way too. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am really scared that while waiting for her to make up her mind she may just file for Divorce after this bankruptcy thing is over.<hr></blockquote>I must have missed somthing. Is she talking about this? If not, don't give her any ideas. When my W moved out, she was headed straight for the lawyers office. after she cooled off a bit and gave me the 3 months to get my act togeather. Time can do wonderfull things. Since then it has been the best Plan A I can muster. NOT A PERFECT Plan A, just the best I can do. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My counselor told me I should file to get prepared but that goes against everything I have read here and I do feel it would negate any chance of reconciliation.<hr></blockquote>D is at best an advisarial process. At worst in can destroy a person for life. I agree with you on this. IMVHO woould recommend doing a bit of shopping in the C aeria. You may find one who has beliefs closer to the plan you have chosen to follow. Mabey even Steve H. or Jen here at MB. Again that is only my opinion, and may not be a good one at that. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Do you think giving her the HNHN book was a good idea, especially if she is reading it?? <hr></blockquote>If she is willing to read it in the right frame of mind, this wasn't a bad idea. I printed about 1/2 this site for my W. She grabed a highlighter and went to town, highlighting and commenting on all the things I havn't or wasn't doing for the last 12 years. In hindsight it probably wasn't the brightest thing I did. I should have waited a few weeks for the Plan A to take hold. Update on that though, she put her first post up here a couple days back. I think I could call that progress. Having bee through this, Iwas a little freaked when I first read about you doing this, but your W seems to be handling it much better at this point.<p>Off topic:<p>Lets talk IT for a moment. I'm in front of a P133 with 64Mb ram running Windows 2000 server on a 21.6Kbps dialup connection. Last night I spent about an hour doing a far better job on this very post than I have today. During my editing the box ran out of resources. When I hit the Add Reply button the browser dove, and I had to reboot to get back on line. I had no way to recover the post. Sory this took so long I just couldn't bring myself to redo it at 1:30 this morning.<p>Thank
Rev.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I printed about 1/2 this site for my W. She grabbed a highlighter and went to town, highlighting and commenting on all the things I haven't or wasn't doing for the last 12 years. <hr></blockquote>
I did the very same thing and the difference was that I highlighted all I felt pertained to us. She cried when she read the article "Why women leave men" and turned to me and said you finally understand. The first italicized lines describe exactly what she has been feeling. This was over two weeks ago so I thought buying the books was in order.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Having bee through this, I was a little freaked when I first read about you doing this, but your W seems to be handling it much better at this point.<hr></blockquote>
I am also surprised because she has told me numerous times she needs to work on her and has nothing left to give for us. One thing that upsets me on that note is the story about OM being separated and needing support. How can she honestly expect me to believe she nothing to give "us" but can be there for him. Hence, my lack of trust grows and I feel as though she is hiding many lies.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Has your W filled out the Emotional Needs Questioner (ENQ)? If so, how important is the financial support need. I ask this because I see that you could be headed for a train wreck. I am in IT. Until my W left I was working 50-65 hrs a week. It is easy to do in this field. I got into IT as a hobie, then got a job, then I let it ruin my time with my W and family. Yes, I have an addictive personality too. If you watch yourself it is a great career, if you don't, it can become "the other woman" figuratively speaking of course. <hr></blockquote>I gave it to her with the original printouts a couple weeks ago but have not asked or seen anything come of it. I filled out EN and LB questionnaires and gave them to her to see where I was. Mistake?
I to have always been an addict. We went to a marriage counselor last summer who told her things she did not like to hear such as she has changed the rules and I am doing what I have always done. When we were dating she was my obsession. I slowly got back into drugs, alcohol, and always played in bands. She was supportive and went to band practice and gigs. After we had kids she worked nights and babysat others children with ours during the day. I would stay home with the kids and my a housedad in the evenings. We had a fantastic relationship despite the circumstances. Once I got sober almost 8 years ago I was promoted at work and our financial life got better. I got into mountain biking heavily and rang up many credit card debts that negated any financial gains we had. Once again she was supportive and involved for a while. I admit knowing what I know now that I slowly drove her away by being away so many hours. I have always worked 45 to 55 hours a week, physical labor even as a manager in this business, and then spent 15 hours a week or more mountain biking. That time should have been spent with my family and I felt guilty doing it. Obsessive once again. My knees began to give out and she had obtained a Real Estate Agent License so she suggested getting a computer so she could make brochures. I had always had an interest in them but she was afraid I would become and addict. Fortune teller that she is [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Soon after getting it I spent way to much time with it and tried to learn all I could and share my knowledge with her and help her to use it. She felt resentful and even name it "Charlotte", my girlfriend. The OW made her jealous. It go to the point after getting cable internet that I admit I was hooked. The online flirting I referred to in the other thread was the trust breaker as far as I can see. I thought we had worked through it but she has told me recently she stills holds a lot of animosity. I never cybered or anything, but thought the attention was interesting and screwed up. She has told me at least when I was mountain biking I wasn't here, but when I am on the computer it hurts her more because I am in the same house but not even there for her. She feels ignored. I have told her I will quit cold turkey, give up school, whatever it takes to work on us. She says she couldn't do that to me it would just make me miserable. I don't push the issue because I am starting to think there is more to it than just her EN not being met by me. If it were not for OM I think we could work on things but right now there is no working on us. She just wants space.
rev, you should feel extremely lucky that you get to go to lunch and talk with your W. Mine does not want me to call or see her at all. Other than the kid exchange she says seeing or hearing from me is not giving her the space she needs. She told me to get cell phones when she left so we could talk to each other because she never gets the messages at her moms. After seeing all the minutes to the other man and finding out that she resents my calls I canceled her phone last week. Maybe a LB, but I am not going to pay for her to talk to him and not me.
Financially we are filing for bankruptcy. She works part time for about 1000 a month. They want her to work more but she says she wants that time for the kids. I know when I enter the IT field I will be taking a pay cut initially as I make about 35K a year now and in this town IT entry level work is hard to come by due to layoffs and pays 10 bucks an hour. I know how I can get carried away with work but as miserable as I am in my current position I feel as though I should find something I enjoy regardless of pay.
She must be planning on getting money from me if she told my daughter they will be getting a three bedroom house. She told me she thought I was only seeing the kids to set it up so I don't pay child support. I am lonely, you have your kids rev, I have an empty house and an empty heart. I may not of spent near as much time with them before but I am reaching out and changing. I must direct my love somewhere and they are the only ones open to receive it. <p>She agreed to sit down Monday after leaving the bankruptcy lawyers and write down what we want to split up in a worst case scenario, I suggested this as a way to get it on paper instead of involving lawyers and financially damaging either one us any more. She does not want our house, she has always hated the low income neighborhood we live in. Other than that everything we have we have acquired together.<p>
So both have us have threatened to file D. Me because I said if she wants to be single then I will just give it to her because I could not just wait in limbo for the six months she asked for. This was a month ago.<p>Her, because she said this was not fair to me and she did not want to hurt me anymore.
Also a month ago.<p>Now, she says she does not know where this is heading but to be prepared for a divorce. She has told the girls that we may never be a family again. She is not willing to work on our marriage and insists she must work on herself first. I don't know where the OM fits into all this but I feel as long as he is involved and she continues to hide things from me that I don't stand much of a chance. I will continue to read and learn, I guess if she does take the first step and file then at least I am not the one who initiated it and will know in my heart that I tried my best. Regardless of the financial outcome, money means nothing to me anyway. I am just scared if she freaks out and keeps my kids away from me. In WA state the one who files can do that until the D is final and gets support during the mean time. That is a hard pill to swallow. I am having a hard enough time without her but without my kids I don't know how I would survive.<p>About your processor, you should load Linux up, it runs well on low end systems. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Sorry, double post. A preview screen would be nice on this board.<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: ScottP ]</p>

ScottP,<p>Now, how am I going to respond to all of that? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>First things first: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>About your processor, you should load Linux up, it runs well on low end systems.<hr></blockquote>I thought about that. I manage 7 FreeBSD machines. Linux is nice, but I'm partial to FreeBSD. My W isn't as savy about this thing so I try to keep it simple. It's one of those POJA things. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How can she honestly expect me to believe she nothing to give "us" but can be there for him. Hence, my lack of trust grows and I feel as though she is hiding many lies.<hr></blockquote>This isn't a zero sum game. She's probably being honest about this. I think the idea here is intrest. If she is intrested in you she'll have somthing to give again. Right now she is intrested in OM. How do I say this... Oh yeah... PLAN A PLAN A PLAN A [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I gave it to her with the original printouts a couple weeks ago but have not asked or seen anything come of it.<hr></blockquote>Try this, in as pleasant a way as possible, without LB, ask about it. I had to ask every day for 2 weeks. OPINION:It's a power thing. You know that the ENQ will give you what you need to make large LB deposites. She doesn't quite know what it's all about, but she knows that it will give you insight. In other words she knows she is giving you an advantage, weather she is consious of this thought or not.END OPINION Based on her reaction to the book, giving her your questioneers probably wasn't bad. She most likely won't take much intrest in them untill she decides to work on M, and that may be a while. Of course she is reading the book. That needs to be taken into account in everything as it can be interpreted as a good sign for so many things.<p>I agree on the cell phone. It may be a LB, but I wouldn't pay for W to talk to OM either. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>because she said this was not fair to me and she did not want to hurt me anymore.<hr></blockquote>RedHat says many WW try to push you away so that you and WW can get off the roler coaster. DON'T buy into this. If she doesn't know or is confused all the better for you. Remember, if she is confused about you, then she is confused about him too. I like to think that there is OM on one side of the "confusion scale" and me on the other. My W wasn't confused when she moved out, she was on OM's end of the scale. She started to get confused. A sign that she was headed my way, and away from OM. She is still confused a bit, but I think she is 3/4 of the way to my side of that scale. I think she could make the rest of the trip if we could get past the pannic attacts and she could stay at "our" house at night.<p>On the Wa. thing: This isn't going to be easy to hear, but listen any way. My second wife D'ed me in Wa. (Yes more of my past) I haven't seen my daughter since she was 3. She will be 17 next year. Yes, it sucks, but you live through these things. You can only play the hand we've been dealt. You can't cheat in life. I pray that this won't happen to you, but know that there are people in the world who have lived your worst fears, and are still doing ok.<p>I can't cover everything you put up, as much as I want to. I have to let others post too. You've got some great stuff here. I recommend you re-read your post. I figure that with a little thought you could probably pick out her top 3 ENs from your post. If you listen to what she was unhappy about, and throw away all the excuses to see OM, you will probably find everything you need for a solid Plan A.<p>Thanks
Rev<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]</p>

Update:<p>My daughters called this morning and thankfully their mom stayed home last night and spent time with them. That is good. She got up this morning and went to mass with her mother...very good [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] They said she read the book while they watched TV last night...good again. Then they said she was taking a nap, afterwards they are going out house hunting...very bad???<p>Man, this is tough. I know what her EN's are without a questionnaire. I just don't have any opportunity to meet them. I will try as hard as it is to just be there for my kids and show them how much I love them. Maybe Monday, at the lawyers I will ask her about the questionnaire. <p>I wonder if I should ask her about the house hunting and how she plans to afford it? Or if I should ask about saying she wants to spend time with the girls and then going out all night??<p>Suggestions??
It is so hard to try and let things go and try to be nice when I feel as though my kids are suffering and I am being lied to. I am reading LB's book and it validates what I already know about myself. I always have tried to "persuade" her to my point of view because I thought that was the best. Not purposefully mind you, but I realize how damaging that has been to our relationship.
She thinks I am trying to manipulate things to go my way now, and I suppose I am, who would not be when you are trying to save your marriage?
How do I do this without coming across as manipulative?<p>rev, I agree it would be nice to have some other input from other members...any takers?<p>I have read all your thread and your wiles. You guy's have some majorissues and I don't envy you one bit. I do appreciate your response to my posts and wish you the best of luck.

ScottP,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I wonder if I should ask her about the house hunting and how she plans to afford it? Or if I should ask about saying she wants to spend time with the girls and then going out all night??<hr></blockquote> Can you say LB? I know, I did it and I posted about it. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It is so hard to try and let things go and try to be nice when I feel as though my kids are suffering and I am being lied to. <hr></blockquote> Ya got to do it man. I know it's hard. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have read all your thread and your wiles. You guy's have some major issues and I don't envy you one bit. I do appreciate your response to my posts and wish you the best of luck.<hr></blockquote>See, others have lived your worst fear. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] We are actualy doing a lot better. She told me today, that she was thinking about starting to move some of her stuff back to "our" house. 7:16 MB time. Ok, now that I put that up you can look at my thread to catch the new news.<p>Thanks
Rev<p>[ December 30, 2001: Message edited by: rev ]</p>

Wow, what a day yesterday was. <p>The day before was a giant pity party for me as I stayed inside all day and read the LB book, I then downloaded and printed two copies of every form required in WA state for us to do our own divorce. The reasoning, we were to file bankruptcy yesterday then she would come over and we agreed to put on paper an amicable split in a worst case scenario.
What a difficult day imagining dividing up 12 years of your life and trying to figure out what is fair for your wife and children, even though she left me!<p>Fast forward to yesterday. Rough morning, called the doctor to explain uncontrollable crying. He added Buspar to my Zoloft and I have an appointment with him tomorrow and my C the next day. OK, so I meet her at the lawyers, she brought the kids. It goes well despite the butterflies. I know we cannot pay our debts while living apart and even together we have struggled to make interest only payments. This was the only logical decision we could make. I feel like a welch but I hope relieving the financial burden allows her to concentrate on what she wants and just doesn't open up the road for an easier divorce.
She then comes over and we begin our talking with her switching HNHN with LB books with me. I cannot believe it but she read the whole book in one day just like me! She said it was irritating and had highlighted the sections where appearance was given such importance. Also the money section. My wife is absolutely gorgeous and she knows it. I have to agree with her, I think the doctor should have explained physical attractiveness to each other. We both feel to much importance was put on giving the wife a choice of working or not. Any way I hope that is not all she got out of the book. I began reading it last night and the first couple chapters explaining how affairs happen would be difficult for her to swallow if in fact she is having one. She still has only admitted to being "friends" with OM and commiserate. <p>Well, we shook hands and agreed not to retain a lawyer under any circumstances. We decided on what possessions she would take when she moves out of her moms and into a house. I told her I would help her move and she said that would be too difficult. I agreed to help support my children, now that we have filed bankruptcy I should have enough to give them $300 a month. I said I would help with inconsequentials also.
We hugged and had a romantic afternoon that she said afterwards we both needed.
Later that afternoon I met them on the other side of town to pick up my girls for my one week vacation (they are staying with me), I brought a bottle of sparkling cider and four crystal champagne glasses and set them up on the tailgate of my truck for a New Years Eve toast with my family. They showed up and we all sat there in the parking lot drinking and toasting. She seemed to like it and was glad I brought the LB book that she had forgotten at the house. I had written her a little note in response to her earlier one telling her I admired her and that her (Catholic) feelings of hoping God will forgive her for selfishly pursuing happiness were valid but that in my opinion, staying in a marriage while "suffering in silence" as she calls it, it a sin. I am glad she did what it took to wake me up to the fact that I have not met her EN's. I just want to be the one to do it now, not OM.
The major thing I have learned and she keeps telling me is that I must give her space! Every conversation ends up being about our relationship or our past. I end up sabotaging myself. I feel she would be back already if I could teach myself to endure the pain and not call or try to contact her. What do you all think?
She says she is taking it one day at a time and still does not know what she wants or how she feels. I need to respect that and plane A... my butt off. I need to show her that I am capable of meeting her EN's but how do you do that when she wants SPACE!!!<p>I have put a link in my signature to some pictures of my family. Cheesy web site I know but I built it with point and click software as that is all I know right now. Enjoy and thanks for letting me vent [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: ScottP ]</p>

Scott, <p>I read you posts and do see that you are a dedicated family man. I am sorry you are having to go through this pain. <p>Often I share this thread about the 5 stages of grieving. It is what the BS goes through which in some cases can be just as difficult as the WS claims they are going through. <p>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002494.html <p>Sounds like you have experienced some anxiety attacks. Medication may help but letting the attack go to it's completion is usually the best. Mine were pretty constant at the beginning. Everyday, several times a day for the first 8 weeks or so, then several times a week to now maybe a couple a month. It is been over a year and a rough year at that. <p>If you are looking for more support, I recommend you try posting in the GQII site. There is a mixture of people in different stages of healing. <p>Remember this healing is 2 fold. Healing for the marriage and healing for the individual. At MB we learn both. <p>Pose all the questions you need. Vent as often as you need. Don't worry about hurting anyone's feelings. You won't. We are a pretty tough bunch....after all look at what we are dealing with? LOL!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You have a beautiful family. You all look so happy in those pictures. That is the kind of stuff your W needs to see and recall. <p>question: Has she taken the children around the OM? <p>Just a question, no need to answer if you don't want to. <p>Take care,
L.<p>[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]<p>[ January 04, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

Orchid,<p>I think I wrote this story but I will recount. The week before Christmas she had admitted having an EA with him and told me she would not see him any more as it could be seen the wrong way, them being friends while we are separated. She asked me to leave her mothers and was very upset. My daughters had been putting together a play all afternoon for her and Granny. The next day when we had dinner together at a local restaurant, the girls chose to ride with me to the movie store to rent a movie, we had agreed to watch it at our house if I refrained from being romantic or bring up the relationship. On the way my youngest daughter told me about how she could not do the play because right after I left mom took them out to pick him and his son (visiting for Christmas) up and take them Christmas shopping. Her sister bumped her and said Shhhh! I asked her what that was about and they both said mom made them promise not to tell me about him and that they were only "friends". I told them girls I would not ruin them movie or embarrass them and then I did the wrong thing, and asked them how many times they had seen him ( a couple rides home after work) and what they thought of him ( they think he is funny). It turns out my suspicions about the cell phone bill were right, it is a guy I went to high school with, well his older brothers anyway.
So yea, after the movie (suffered in silence), I calmly told her that she could do anything she wanted to me, but to never ask our children to lie to cover her actions, or try to make them feel guilty. She broke down and cried and apologized and said she would talk to them about it and it would not happen any more. She has not said one word to them since. I know she spent Christmas day with him and his son, she told me when I asked, but the kids have not seen or heard from him since. Whenever they stay with me they cannot ever get a hold of her at her moms and since I closed her cell phone account we just wait for her to call. She says she told him she could not see him anymore but I am having a hard time with trust.
Deep down, I think I want to believe her, she says I know her better than to think she would lie. But I hear you all go through that and wonder if it can happen to me. She of course just thinks I am trying to blame her leaving on him, and I have explained how I understand me not meeting her EN's, and asked her if I had made the changes I am making now last summer when we went to marriage counseling if it would of helped. She says YES! Why is it too late now? She needs to work on herself, and I need to give her space.<p>Thanks for your reply, I will keep posting and reading and hopefully come to peace with myself. I have always been the "dedicated" family man, but by no means the ideal mate. I am committed to making it work and pray she will come to the same.<p>Thanks,
Scott

Scott,<p>You know the funny thing is that they always will say they want what they know you can not do. Your example about ok to go to C now is not ok but last summer it was. Make sense? No.....but if they say yes, then there is commitment available. <p>They may be in the fog but they sure know when you are trying to make a point. The part about her asking her children to cover up and lie to you is not respectful. Those tear may be real but becareful. Make sure her actions matches her words. <p>Sooo hard to do with your kids involved. At least it sounds like you in-laws are not supporting her. Train your girls well so that they will consider the OM a stranger. He may be funny but you never know. Yes, he is someone's daddy but he is not daddy's friend. Hm..... is that an LB? Well, it is the truth so you have to decide. <p>I told my 6 year old that and he knew the difference. He even told his dad not to take him to see the OW. H never even mentioned it but when our son knew his father had moved out, our son assumed he moved in with OW (he rented a room but did live with her off an on)....when we finally were allowed to see where he lived, our son said, I am glad dad is not living with that lady. Out of the mouth of babes. <p>One thing is that I never held my child back from speaking his mind. Our children carry stress also. So it is important that they have a way to be able to vent as much as they need. <p>Take Care,
L.

Well I just got home from my appointment with my counselor. She came down to visit the girls while I was gone. They asked her to stay until I got home but she said no.
The counselor is right and so are you all. As hard as it is I have got to stop asking my kids what mom is doing, or did you guy's do anything last night with mom. This always leads to "no, she went out with her friends" or something similar. It tears me up inside wondering what she is doing, be it an affair or not. I guess I am trying to keep tabs on her (controlling behavior), and I must just let it go. I need to learn to be happy on my own. It is just soooooooo......HARD!!!!
She suggested the marriage counseling last summer and I went to three session with her. That is all the insurance would cover. The counselor told her things she did not like to hear such as "you have changed the rules" and not told Scott what the new rules are. It was always OK for me to be in bands, mountain bike, or the computer thing. I guess I took advantage of her pleaser personality while she suffered emotional stagnation in silence. I have learned and grown and realized how I just assumed my family knew how much I loved them. I always did fun things and have always been there for everyone, just not enough. Anyway, she kept alot bottled up and admits it. I still don't understand why she said if I had made these changes last summer this would not have happened, but now she just wants space. I don't get the opportunity to deposit any love units.
Orchid, your support is greatly appreciated, I guess I am going to have to pull myself together and be strong. My counselor also said Sara would not want to come home to someone weak. I need to show that I am OK and can get along fine without her. How do you all put the thoughts out of your mind concerning "what are they doing" and all those feelings of jealousy about OP?
Thanks again Orchid and all who are reading and praying for my family.<p>Scott<p>[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: ScottP ]</p>

Hi Scott, <p>In answer to your question: "How do you all put the thoughts out of your mind concerning "what are they doing" and all those feelings of jealousy about OP?"<p>Take a look at the thread in my previous post. I finally fixed the link...sorry. <p>It is a good question and hard to do. But learn what you can and understand the impact of your actions. Then you will be able to do the
'right' thing vs what you 'really' want to do. <p>Reaching the stage acceptance will help you see where the best place is to put your time and energy. Truly after a while the OP will become dull and boring. Maybe even irritating. <p>Why? Because you are better than that. <p>L.

Ouch again and again! Today the girls called W's mom's to say hi, and their cousin said she went skiing with OM. Just yesterday she told me they were no longer in contact and that she was being completely honest. She said she had an appointment with her counselor (New Years Day!) and he said not to be intimate with me any more because that would not let her get the space she wants. She said that he has her drawing boundaries to get what she wants. What do I believe?
I have enjoyed having my kids with me this week but am very scared of them going back tomorrow. She is supposed to pick them up after I take them to mass. How should I approach knowing about the skiing (she has never wanted to do that with me!)?
She will think I was trying to keep tabs on her but the truth is that the girls just missed her and were calling without my prodding.
How do you ask someone to be honest without LB? God this hurts. I did make the mistake of making a couple calls to her BIL and the cousin to inquire if she is having an affair. Of course they said they knew nothing and don't want to get involved. Big mistake! She will find out and be mad. I lost it in my pain, luckily I think either the meds are starting to work or else I am learning to cope better because I have not been crying all day. I am trying to accept the reality that she is in the "fog" and lying to me about having an affair. Do I just keep plan A-ing?
Thanks for a place to vent...sheesh [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Scott

ScottP,<p>Looks like you got some other input, and from some great people. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I just wanted to make a couple comments on what I read tonight. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Every conversation ends up being about our relationship or our past. I end up sabotaging myself. I feel she would be back already if I could teach myself to endure the pain and not call or try to contact her. What do you all think?<hr></blockquote>I agree. I have done the same thing. I am now trying to look stronger, mabey a little dissintrested. That reverse psych. thing again. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Those tear may be real but becareful. Make sure her actions matches her words.<hr></blockquote>Orchid is dead right on this. I have the same struggle. The honesty hasn't been there. Watch her, you will see the truth. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>As hard as it is I have got to stop asking my kids what mom is doing, or did you guy's do anything last night with mom. This always leads to "no, she went out with her friends" or something similar.<hr></blockquote>There is a recipie for disaster if I've ever seen/lived one. I know how tough this is to stop, but you can do this too. I see all the effort your putting into this. Just keep it up. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Orchid, your support is greatly appreciated, I guess I am going to have to pull myself together and be strong. My counselor also said Sara would not want to come home to someone weak. I need to show that I am OK and can get along fine without her. How do you all put the thoughts out of your mind concerning "what are they doing" and all those feelings of jealousy about OP?<hr></blockquote>This isn't easy either, but you can do it. As RedHat would say, if your busey you can't think about it. Fill up your calendar and stay busy. That's what I had to do. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Truly after a while the OP will become dull and boring. Maybe even irritating. <hr></blockquote>I don't know about boring, but my W has been moving from one tiff to another with OM lately. I like that idea. I hope the same happens for you. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I am trying to accept the reality that she is in the "fog" and lying to me about having an affair. Do I just keep plan A-ing?<hr></blockquote>I can't say anything about this other than: learn it, know it, live it. Remember, her actions will speak louder than her words. You have to decide if you can stay in Plan A, but I would stay there as long as you can take it. She has to remember how good Plan A was if you go to Plan B. The longer and better you do it, the more you reinforce those memories. You can't Plan A forever, no one can. Just do as much as you can.<p>Thanks
Rev