Every day there seems to be no progress. WS has no desire about anything. I suppose this is her fog but she insists she is not in any withdrawl.<p>She said during holidays she thought she might be on the verge of a breakdown. All she wants me to do is "be positive and look forward" (do not get into any details of A)<p>The first week after D Day was pretty intense. Thank goodness I found the MB site and ordered SAA. <p>She read about 3/4 of SAA to see what kind of "stuff" MB was all about. Weeks 2-4 I saw some effort to at least address my EN's (SF and affection)<p>She has promised but has been unable to finish the book in the last six weeks. This frustrates the hell out of me.<p>We discussed the EN's questionnaire and she just can't find the time to complete. How can I work on her EN's if she will not tell me what they are? <p>I send her a link about wanting to counsel with Steve and she wants to spend several hours going through the site to understand before committing. She is an RN and cannot believe that you can counsel by telephone. I sent her the link before Christmas.<p>During the holidays she had several opportunities to have more than enough time to:
finish reading SAA
completing the EN questionnaire
review MB site for counseling<p>but nothing. And everyday it seems more and more in a fog.<p>I have been good about not LBing but I'm glad she can't read my mind.<p>I then started reading up again on Plan A and it said it was not about satisfying her EN's so may be I have been off base. But right now nothing is happening and it's hard to be "positive and look forward" We've had sex once in the last month and that was duty sex in my opinion.<p>I just don't know what direction to turn.<p>Coping&Hoping<p>
[img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

C&H--Welcome to the site. You've stumbled upon an incredible resource, not to mention the BEST support group. There are many people out here who have a virtual wealth of information to give.<p>I generally ask questions that relate to the pattern that I saw/see with my WS, so forgive me if I come across as being rather blunt. I tend not to sugarcoat much of anything.<p>My first question to you is regarding your WS's A--you said it was quit 'cold turkey'. I always tend to be a bit skeptical of this the first, second, third etc time they say this unless there is proof or strong, strong belief. It's like being the alcoholic on probabation caught in the bar with the cocktail in their hand--"I'll never drink again. . .". <p>Suffice to say, I hope truly that your WS's A is over. My recurring piece of advice is to determine through whatever precarious methods you can employ (cell phone, email etc) that the A is in fact over. Until it is, you can Plan A as long as your shredded heart is willing to take. Or go to Plan B, assuming you have read SAA and made substantial changes and fixes to your faults.<p>That being said, wonderful people like Redhat, Orchid and others (not trying to slight anyone), will give you links, ideas and input that will help you forge a decision.<p>The bottom line is that we are all here for you and each other. This board has saved me many a time from going straight to the attorney and filing. <p>God bless,<p>Guido

coping&hoping,
Review your plan A, see if there is any stone unturn ?. Did she acknowledge your changes ?. Could you improve that and add more stuff to show changes ?. You are still in plan A and WS will waffle. Just see their actions not their words, remember they are master of trickery. This way you will not get your hope high or start reading something that wasn't there.
See the link on my sig by Distress & WAT, check it out.

Guido,
The best I can tell from cell phone, caller ID etc she has stopped making contact.<p>She works at a hospital three days a week and we both know that their paths will cross at least on one of the days. I ask her if any contact was made and she is volunteeering on these days what if anything happened. <p>At first she said the OM avoided her like the plague. There were opportunities to strike up a conversation etc and neither did. <p>Out of the past 9 weeks:
- once she said serious eye contact was made
- once he told her about a mutual friend who had died
- beyond that no contact<p>I know there is no way to monitor if any contact is made while working. We talk every day while she is at work and she calls before leaving the hospital. <p>She is familiar with the No-Contact philosophy but is not willing to go there yet.<p>Coping & Hoping

Redhat,<p>I am copying part of your post. I read this a week or so ago and that is when I realized that I was doing it all wrong. <p>I thought Plan A was about satisfying her ENs and winning her back. That's when I got confused.<p>The only part I seem to be able to control is no LBing which I think I have done pretty good.<p>Her request was to "act positive and look forward" So, do I do this and just wait until she turns the corner?<p>Also, Red - what did you mean by "leaving no stone unturned?"<p>C&H<p>
**************************
"I am a great believer in the Harley methodology and it helped me work through a horrible situation. However, I am convinced that there is no greater misunderstanding and misapplication of techniques than in the betrayed's use of Plan A. FAR, FAR too many betrayed's seem to believe that if they stop love busting, go to great efforts to meet the wayward's needs (while the affair continues), and don't bring up OR talks or any issues, their spouses will eventually come back. While the spouses sometimes do come back during Plan A, it is my strong belief that their coming back is much more related to the natural death of their affairs than any action the betrayed is taking.<p>Plan A serves one narrowly defined purpose only. Its purpose is for the betrayed spouse to demonstrate for the wayward spouse the behavior he/she is capable of should the wayward ever decide to return to the marriage. That's it. It does not and cannot be used to: 1) win the spouse back from the OP, 2) recreate love from the wayward while the affair continues by meeting emotional needs, 3) unconditionally demonstrate love and self-sacrifice from the betrayed, or 4) create guilt within the wayward."<p>********************************<p>
"

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by coping&hoping:
<strong>Her request was to "act positive and look forward" So, do I do this and just wait until she turns the corner?<p>Also, Red - what did you mean by "leaving no stone unturned?"
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, you do. You have to wait and not intefere w/ A. WS made a decision to have an A, you let WS makes decision to get out of it on their own, their own concious !!!. Then you have a chance to rebuilt your M, to create a fullfilling M.<p>You have to review your plan A once in a while, probably once a week depending on your situation. What works and what doesn't and how to impove it. You have to make sure that you address all of her issue(s) in your M.

I can only pray she is still not having an A. She may still be in a fog and confused. BUT, if she is actually still in an A I don't know that I could handle that.<p>I have read all of these posts and I never have understood how the BS can just sit back and hope the A dies. <p>
Coping&Hoping

coping&hoping:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I can only pray she is still not having an A. She may still be in a fog and confused. BUT, if she is actually still in an A I don't know that I could handle that.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Be prepared for the worst and when is not true you are feeling better. When it is true you are ready.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I have read all of these posts and I never have understood how the BS can just sit back and hope the A dies.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, BS is not sit back ... BS sicks, hurts, and sometime crying their guts out. BS is busy to make them better in relationship and make it as habit. No, BS doesn't hope A dies. BS believe A will dies and when it is not BS do plan B. The issues here is not A actually, A happens and nothing we could do since it is WS's choice to have one. BS works on bigger issues to build a fulfilling M after A. I could close the join account and refuse to pay WW's bill. She can not file spousal support since I didn't kick her out from home and let her stay as she wishes. If she wants money she could get a job, the court will tell her that. It will be a war and I do something. Let say that A dies because of it and WW is coming back and said is working on M. There is a resentment that W could have toward me, killing her once in a life time happiness. There is a nagging voice, my ego tells me that she is back because of my inteference not because of her own choice.<p>I truely believe in MB principal. The road to recovery is very narrow and you do not want to second guessing it with intefering A. After learning MB, I would not settle for less, I want a fulfilling M and I am capable of creating one with or without my WW . I give my WW the last shot at this M, gave her my last breath of love for her, when I move on I will not look back.

Last night after the party we hosted we laid on opposite sides of the bed. I told her that I felt her affection toward me was same as it was the two months prior to D day. How during the last month she was keeping her distance from me at all costs.<p>I wasn't trying to LB. But my God, she took off on a big LBing tangent about how she is trying to do everything not to contact OM and upset me. <p>Suffice it to say she got louder and louder and questionned herself why she is staying in this M. I remained quiet and let her yell to her hearts content. We eventually just went to sleep.<p>She feels like I don't let up on finish reading the SAA book or completing EN questionnaire. She feels the pressure to complete but I quit bringing up the subject a week ago. <p>Did I really screw up by calling the OM the day after D-Day. I say this because if the A-- is over I stopped it and it was not my WS's decision. What Red said made sense ... I stopped her emotional high of the A-- and could she be resentful? <p>Waiting for her to wake up to see her attidude today.<p>Coping&Hoping<p>Today

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by coping&hoping:
<strong>Last night after the party we hosted we laid on opposite sides of the bed. I told her that I felt her affection toward me was same as it was the two months prior to D day. How during the last month she was keeping her distance from me at all costs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why do you bring the subject ? let it go, you try to beat the dead horse.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I wasn't trying to LB. But my God, she took off on a big LBing tangent about how she is trying to do everything not to contact OM and upset me. </strong><hr></blockquote>
You are the messager, she hates you to the bone now for breaking her dream.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Suffice it to say she got louder and louder and questionned herself why she is staying in this M. I remained quiet and let her yell to her hearts content. We eventually just went to sleep.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Keep note ... listen & pay attention ! Whatever she complain about or "the why" staying M are you basis for plan A !. Not LB is not enough, you have to shake her believe that you can not change. The fact that she says this kind of thing make me to beleive you still have some work to do on plan A.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>She feels like I don't let up on finish reading the SAA book or completing EN questionnaire. She feels the pressure to complete but I quit bringing up the subject a week ago. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Good work, even she doesn't want to continue you have let it go. Forget even you gave her the book. About her EN, you could pretty much guessed and alos from her LB'ed you could see where the EN(s) are.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Did I really screw up by calling the OM the day after D-Day. I say this because if the A-- is over I stopped it and it was not my WS's decision. What Red said made sense ... I stopped her emotional high of the A-- and could she be resentful? </strong><hr></blockquote>
No, you did what you thought the best at the time. However it is not the end of the world, you just have to deal with it better. I am going to be point blank to you so don't take what I say personally and it is the fact. You the body of your wife only, her soul is with A. She hates you soo much that even if you do not bring up the R issues she will. She is rationalizing why she stops it. (give me the detail if you don't mind). She didn't see any changes yet or she doesn't attribute the changes as a reason to stay. You have to drastic change on your approach. You still have to do no LB as hard as you can, just be there and do not comment if you know it is a "trick" question or a question that will be use against you. Just say "I understand" or say "I have a different opinion but I understand yours and right now I do not want to change the subject". Learn how to talk fogese !!!. You already done a decent work on plan A but you and to crank it up. After reviewing your plan A and what to do to show changes, you should make physical changes too so that she pays attention on your behavioral changes. I colored my hair, went 2 days a week to gymn and stop drinking latte (cold turkey), and change my outfit from very casual to casual dress up as an opening to my plan A. It shocked my WW and she tought I was moving on and start looking for A myself !. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . She notice some changes and I know she like it but she is still on the fence. When I need to make her notice me, a month ago I cut my hair soo short, 1/4 inch, a marine look, going to movie by myself (alone). Steve Harley wanted me to start giving her a "love" card every now and then. I gave her once a week plus some special occation card. My point is SHOW HER PYHISICAL CHANGES AS AN OPENNING TO YOUR BEHAVIORAL CHANGES. It is very effective. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Waiting for her to wake up to see her attidude today.</strong><hr></blockquote>
C&H, do not expect any changes. You have to chip away her beleive that you can not change. It is very slow when WS is WW, I beleive it is due to the slow build up of reasoning of A. Be patience, learn how to "pass" some baits of LB. When the beleive is shaking, her attitude (behavior) will changed too. Concentrate on the beleive and stop beating the dead horse.

Red,
[quote]
You are the messager, she hates you to the bone now for breaking her dream.{/quote}<p>I think you are right on target. And that's why I said what I did. I appreciate your candor. Don't hold back any punches because this is making me realize which direction to go and where to stay the h-ll away from.

[quote]
You the body of your wife only, her soul is with A. She hates you soo much that even if you do not bring up the R issues she will. She is rationalizing why she stops it. (give me the detail if you don't mind)[/quote}<p>The first sentence out of her mouth on D-Day was that she was hoping I would catch her. She did it for the self-esteem. Kind of proving to herself that she could. The OM was her former employer and he was caught in an A-- with one of his employees. He was married at the time but not now. She said she rationalized to have an A-- with him because of his reputation and figured it wouldn't go anywhere. She said it had been going on for about a year and they had only been "together" four times.<p>All of the above came out on D-day. No information about A-- since then.<p>As I revamp Plan A I am still confused. I have always thought it was better to get it out in the open and discuss (daily if it were up to me). Yet this is beating a dead horse. <p>However, I feel like if we let days go by without "talking" the days will turn into weeks and nothing will change. The forever catch 22.<p>I'm OK with going forward but how do I get her to discuss what the real issues are? or do I wait until she brings them up?<p>Coping&Hoping

coping&hoping,
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>The first sentence out of her mouth on D-Day was that she was hoping I would catch her. She did it for the self-esteem. Kind of proving to herself that she could. The OM was her former employer and he was caught in an A-- with one of his employees. He was married at the time but not now. She said she rationalized to have an A-- with him because of his reputation and figured it wouldn't go anywhere. She said it had been going on for about a year and they had only been "together" four times.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Look, CNC, you have to learn how take the words and separate them from action. I would not "trust" on what she say about 4x etc, etc. However, she said that A is for her selfesteem. This is your plan A, CNC !. Did you ever comment on her beauty, brain & everything else in public to help her out ?. Did you ever tell her that you appreciate her as W and as a freind ?. Did you stop any comment or act that bring down her self esteem ? (If you one of the source of it).<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I revamp Plan A I am still confused. I have always thought it was better to get it out in the open and discuss (daily if it were up to me). Yet this is beating a dead horse. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I wish rev is here. Nope, she is not going to and stay away from it. The above situation about "self esteem", I bring it up for you as an example. Now, think, think, think in the past where you have discussion, what else comes out ?. Then devise a plan to show that you could make it better.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>However, I feel like if we let days go by without "talking" the days will turn into weeks and nothing will change. The forever catch 22.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are chipping away my freind, chipping away the wall, one chip at a time and one brick at a time until it is crumbled. You won't see the result until it is crumbled. You have to attack it from the foundation up !.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I'm OK with going forward but how do I get her to discuss what the real issues are? or do I wait until she brings them up?</strong><hr></blockquote>
She will comes around when she sees your changes, she will comment on it. Look for those comment or acknowledgement. For now she is expecting you to have a crystal ball to read her mind. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Red,
First, what does CNC stand for?<p>Second,
The self esteem should not really be the issue. I think that was BS. She is very attractive and has mentioned in the past how she gets hit on all the time. <p>I think I complement her a lot but maybe not...<p>I do know that the one thing that sets her off is when I change the tone in my voice when I get irritated. Over the holidays I had one instance of this when my kids from previous marriage were in town. She later said that was one time she wanted to call the OM but did not.<p>The kids (13 & 20) are a major strain. They live in other cities.<p>Last night we had a wonderful time preparing a nice meal together - just like old times - We did this for a couple of weeks after D-Day and would have deep conversations. However, last night when it was over she wanted to watch a movie. Which eventually wound up with me going to bed and her falling asleep on the couch. Are you saying to let her bring up any deep conversations?<p>Copping&Hoping

First, what does CNC stand for?
Mistypo I want to type CNH coping&hoping, sorry
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Second,
The self esteem should not really be the issue. I think that was BS. She is very attractive and has mentioned in the past how she gets hit on all the time. <p>I think I complement her a lot but maybe not...
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, this is plan A all about, it is drawn by WS and we have to sort them through, which one is a fact (issue) and which one is a justification (excuse). Get third party, very close to her to help you to see if this is not an issues.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I do know that the one thing that sets her off is when I change the tone in my voice when I get irritated. Over the holidays I had one instance of this when my kids from previous marriage were in town. She later said that was one time she wanted to call the OM but did not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
BS usually very scare, very scare of LB .. because we care, care too much. You could do thing that make her unplesant (angry) but it is not an LB. WS is a master of deceive, they know how to push back and manipulate the situation toward their advantage. Again it is a boundry that both of you constantly negotiating.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>The kids (13 & 20) are a major strain. They live in other cities.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How so ?.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Last night we had a wonderful time preparing a nice meal together - just like old times - We did this for a couple of weeks after D-Day and would have deep conversations. However, last night when it was over she wanted to watch a movie. Which eventually wound up with me going to bed and her falling asleep on the couch. Are you saying to let her bring up any deep conversations?</strong><hr></blockquote>
It is not an LB to bring up deep converstation but you stay away from relationship talk unless she bring it up. There are a lot of mine field in the conversation, you better ready. It is even encourage to share feeling, for instance about the kid creates some strain.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> The kids (13 & 20) are a major strain. They live in other cities. <hr></blockquote><p> They have never have bonded with her. The 20 year old is manipulative. The 13 year old is at that testy age.<p>I visit the 13 year old for a weekend about every six weeks. She never goes with me. She never had any kids of her own. From a previous marriage she raised two infants for six years. When we got married I was 42 and she was 36. I did not want any more children and had a vasectomy soon after we got married. I guess she views this as a major sacrifice on her part.<p>The six week visit is a gut wrencher for me because that was the last time she and the OM were together. She had volunteered to go with me this month - then wanted to back out after the stressful holidays - then agreed to go (said it was a major deposit into my Love Bank) - then we find out the kids are going to be out of town and have to reschedule. Let her off because her job requires scheduling a month in advance.<p>The sad thing is I am not really that close to my kids but I don't want to stop seeing them. It's really a pickle I'm in.
Coping&Hoping

coping&hoping,
Hey, don't short change yourself, I never bonded w/ my dad and I live w/ him all my childhood. They know you care and that is worth a lot to them. Also you should see it as a blessing that you did the operation, no kid involve here.<p>Good luck on reviewing your plan A.

What a roller coaster yesterday was.<p>WW was off work and asked me to come home early from work. Said she was going to pay bills and finally get on MB web site to check out Harley for possible C.<p>Wound up inviting couple over for happy hour. They left around 7:30. <p>We have only been intimate once in past month. A real bummer for me. In our own way we said tonight was the night. <p>To make a long story short I went to take a long bath hoping she would join. After 45 minutes went back to den and she was asleep. <p>I lost it to myself. Went to finish the laundry and was mumbling big LBs to myself. Well sh-t she was standing there. This started a one hour major argument.<p>When we went to bed she started crying and I tried to console. Well - she said "I don't want you to touch me" What a major REJECTION. <p>I told her how I felt she hated me because I intervened in her A- and didn't let it die naturally. The more she talked the more I realized that we were not making any progress and she was taking major steps backwards.<p>I said some major LB which I regret but the "rejection" just set me off. She left the bedroom and started to sleep on the couch. I went and got her to come to our bed. She cried how she was rejected by her parents as a child. I have never heard of this before.<p>Anyway, I slept about 3 hours. This morning I told her to listen to her cell phone and I was going to leave a message. In the message, I told her that I loved her and that I was going to survive this and hoped she would survive it with me. But she had to decide which direction she was going to go and put 100% into her decision. I wanted her to go with me but in the event that was not in the cards that I would still love her and would be OK.<p>2 hours later she called me from work and said she was where she wanted to be - at home - thank God ! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>She said she was going to get some medication prescribed to help her out of her stagnant attitude. And wanted to call early so I would not worry all day.<p>I was prepared to start Plan B. But feel like a tremendous weight was lifted off my chest when she said she wanted to be at home.<p>Thanks for listening.<p>Coping&Hoping

coping&hoping,
Stop talking about R or A. Just do your plan A and do not expect anything back. You are in plan A, remember ?. Let her sort her own feeling and you should be out of her way, focus on plan A. It is hard yet easier since A is dead, you are half way there.

Red,
Positive steps. She has set up appointment to see pyschiatrist next week. She also took some time and review ENQ. <p>I understand Plan A a little better now. I now realize to stop hoping she will address my EN's and that I need to make my side right without expecting anything in return. I know this is what I was doing wrong and when she didn't respond I was extremely frustrated.<p>What does R stand for.<p>Coping&Hoping.

R is relationship, between you and her. I am glad finally you understood it. Rev calls it "enlightenment". Give it time and sit back and watch her ... take note !. You will have to be on guard all the time since she might drop you in the 'coaster ride.<p>Good job [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]