Just looking for some Plan B advice when kids our involved. I am in the process of writing a Plan B letter to W and would likemto address how we will take care of the kids. We have 4 kids, D12, D11, D8 and S6 and need to figure out how to factor in their well being while in Plan B. The current separation agreement states that I have them on Wednseday evenings and every other weekend. But, I do know that this can be modified so that I can see them whenever I want, altogeher or individually.<p>I also know that the kids are beginning to show signs of the effects of the separation. This is probably going to be the biggest thing that I will have to deal with during Plan B, going to parenting classes and counseling with them. I am sure that counseling should be done with both parents involved, but not sure if parenting classes should be done together.<p>If anyone has some advice about how to handle kids and kid issues during Plan B, I would appreciate it very much. Right now my kids welfare is what is most important to me.

loveherstill,<p>Plan B is hard and point of no return for BS. So you should try to see more time w/ your kids. Some WS have a very negative feeling about the letter. Get 50-50 time before you hand her the plan B and try to get as much as you can modified in the agreement to fit in when Dv comes along.<p>It is your call but IMHO, I would stick by no contact, no parent class and no conseling together. You would to go for separate conseling & parenting class. Explain also to your kids about plan B. Explain it to their conselor. It is temporary thing and you will join later when Dv is done.<p>Review again your plan A and maybe get Harley's help to review it before going to plan B.

I think that the kids are what is really preventing me from going forward with Plan B. Now that the RO has been thrown out, I can start taking them more and more. If I had my way, I'd take them 24-7, even if I do live in a 1 bd apt.<p>But, I have been hurt so much by W that I feel the Lovebank is almost bankrupt, and without any deposits from W, I don't see any other choice but to move forward with Plan B sometime in the future. Her continued involvement with OM, even as 'friends' is what makes it so difficult to even think there is hope.<p>I guess that maybe for now, I'll sit tight and concentrate on getting my single life in order and concentrate on the kids. Then I can revisit Plan B and go from there.

loveherstill,<p>Actually my LB$ is also bankupt by my WW's dummb actions and her treatment in the past 2 years before the D-day. She is unhappy w/ life and picks me as the cause of it and pick OM as the lover.<p>However it is easier to do plan A !!!. Why ?. I have no expectations and I am ready to move on. I am settleing down on acceptance mode waiting to sort out financial mess. Why not move back in and sleep in the sofa ?.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I guess that maybe for now, I'll sit tight and concentrate on getting my single life in order and concentrate on the kids. Then I can revisit Plan B and go from there.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is the idea of plan A, go about fixing you and go about your bussiness minus A or new R until Dv. No LB'ed !!!.

I don't think that moving back in is an option right now, much as I want to, it would create just to much tension. I am at the point where I too have no expectations, except for me to move forward by myself. If W agrees to end contact with OM and then commit to restoring the M (my boundaries), then I will move back in. She has this idea that in three months, I can finish a room in the basement and move in there, and then we can start 'dating' again. Personally, I think this is just buying herself some time to see if OM is going to leave his W for her, maybe I am wrong, but she has made comments about this before.<p>I refuse to go by her plan, I would rather spend the money, time and effort working on the M using solid, proven MB principals. We are not starting over, we have 13 years together, why not take that history and make the M even better. <p>If I continue to be the best dad possible for now, then Plan B and possible Dv will be easier on the kids later on.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by loveherstill:
<strong>I don't think that moving back in is an option right now, much as I want to, it would create just to much tension.</strong><hr></blockquote>
My 2¢. If you can't handel the tension how could she come back to you ?. This is what Harley meant by "safe environment". As long as there is no physical and drug/subtance abuse, you should learn how to not LB'ed.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> ... She has this idea that in three months, I can finish a room in the basement and move in there, and then we can start 'dating' again. Personally, I think this is just buying herself some time to see if OM is going to leave his W for her, maybe I am wrong, but she has made comments about this before.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why not do it ?. 1.It will raise the value of your home. 2.You will stop burning rent money. 3. You will be able to plan A'ng easier 4. You will be closer to your kids. 5. You chances of more custody time will increase incase you Dv. 6. You might "date" your W. 7. You might be wrong w/ your assumption.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I refuse to go by her plan, I would rather spend the money, time and effort working on the M using solid, proven MB principals. We are not starting over, we have 13 years together, why not take that history and make the M even better.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Watch out ... it could be LB. If her top EN includes Financial security, helping increasing the value of home is depositing LB and should be part of your plan A. I refused to do it since I was busy working, being a single dad and I refused to be a handyman. I bet w/ you if you call up Steve, he will ask you to do it. He make me fixing the apartments that we own as part of plan A. Steve told me to do it, it part of my plan A !!!. Yesterday I was fixing one of the tenant's heater. I have to be all three of them and find time to do them. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] I guess I have to live up to my sig. "absolute best". [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>If I continue to be the best dad possible for now, then Plan B and possible Dv will be easier on the kids later on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
At least they know there is some one care and love them. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Redhat-<p>Maybe the pain is still too raw for me to think objectively, but I just dont see the value of me moving back in without some kind of commitment from W to work on the marriage. I know its been only 4 mo since DDay, but W's actions since then, to me, have been absolutely repulsive. I am at the point where I am embarrassed to call her my wife, and that hurts me a lot. I cant even look at her anymore without me feeling disgust at what she has done.<p>Right now, I feel like if I follow W's plan, I would look like I am crawling back to her. W has made absolutely no commitments to the M, why should I think she will just because I am living in the house? I tried that plan for 3 mos and all it got me was a restraining order and a huge attorneys bill. I dont want to have to go through another separation, I dont think I can do that again. The restraining order really was the last straw for me.<p>As far as financial security, not a problem for W. She has gone on government aid to have those needs met, and the terms of the separation agreement make sure that she is provided for and anything extra has to come from me. So, forces me into a second job just to make my own ends meet.<p>Emotional needs, not a problem for W. She has all her friends, including OM, that help her out and listen to her problems. I tried (I really did) to meet these needs as part of my Plan A but W didn't want anything to do with it. She just pushed me aside and said that her friends understood her better than I ever will. I even tried to ask her how I could meet these needs, she told me it was to late, nothing I could do anymore.<p>The only other need I thought I might have a chance to meet is to help out around the house. Not a problem for W, she says she will pay me out of the support agreement if I do things around the house. Basically be a servant, a paid handyman. I dont have much left, but my self-respect is one of them.<p>Physical needs, not a problem for W since she really didn't want them met anyway. W even told me that she would rather flirt with the guys at the bar than to have sex, its more fulfilling for her.<p>So you see, I dont really see where I can meet any needs, whether I am at home or not. W is going to have to do something to convince me that the M is worth something to her before I would even consider moving back in. And right now, she is doing nothing at all.<p>I know Plan A is working great for me, but it is worthless if the WS doesn't see or acknowledge the changes you have made, and if you have been removed from the house, what is there left to see?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by loveherstill:
<strong>Maybe the pain is still too raw for me to think objectively, but I just dont see the value of me moving back in without some kind of commitment from W to work on the marriage. I know its been only 4 mo since DDay, but W's actions since then, to me, have been absolutely repulsive. I am at the point where I am embarrassed to call her my wife, and that hurts me a lot. I cant even look at her anymore without me feeling disgust at what she has done.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I had to drink stomach relaxer on my bad day, continue to drink pepacid once in a while. This roller 'coaster ride is not a natural treatment. Read up on plan A missapplication by distress then decide if your plan A is a good plan A. You try to expect your W to meet you half way that is not plan A all about. In the past 13 years of M, do you feel disgust of her ?. My point is she is in the fog right now, at the top of her A and you probably LB'ed all over the place. You can not compete with A, let her live in it and see if she likes it. Meanwhile you keep removing the issues you had done in your M such that you are a better choice when A dies !. My W repulsed me too, pushing my hot button ... it is easier for W to blame her A to me. So she could run to OM and cry how bad of a man I am. No more, she is now staring at her A point blank, I remove my self out of the path of A.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Right now, I feel like if I follow W's plan, I would look like I am crawling back to her. W has made absolutely no commitments to the M, why should I think she will just because I am living in the house? I tried that plan for 3 mos and all it got me was a restraining order and a huge attorneys bill. I dont want to have to go through another separation, I don't think I can do that again. The restraining order really was the last straw for me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are hurt of her action about RO, and right now you are in anger. You have to move to acceptance before you could do a good job at plan A. Check the 5 steps of greive on my sig. Also reread plan A missapplication by distress. IMHO, if you do not follow her plan, you will preceived as not loving her ... sound familiar ?. I am sorry for you that the plan A hits your self esteem, but are you ready to throw the towel ?. You have 13 years history of M compare to few months of A. There are probably many other positive thing that you could hang on to. Do not get suck into her fog.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I know Plan A is working great for me, but it is worthless if the WS doesn't see or acknowledge the changes you have made, and if you have been removed from the house, what is there left to see?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, plan A is not fillin ENs. Not at all, only if she allows you to. What you are doing is you are competing with her A and her fog, you will never win that way. You just got sucked into it and depresses you even more. Get validation from third person who is close to both of you if they see your changes. Most WS doesn't acknowledge it since it will invalidate her reason of A. The more reason for you to come back home and it is very hard but you have to.<p>[ January 28, 2002: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

Redhat-<p>Looking back at my posts I can see a lot of anger and bitterness coming out. But, right now, that is exactly what I am feeling. To have these things done to me by the one I committed my life to, it cuts deep. There is just to much pain right now. The A, the continues lies and betrayals, the continued contact, the RO, I sometimes wonder what else W can do to me, what other bomb can she drop on me, and do I have it in me to survive it. I have seen a side of W that I don't like, don't like one bit. I didn't think she was capable of this, not at all.<p>I think the one thing that hurts above all else is that I am no longer able to be the father I once was. So many of the little things that me and the kids used to do have been taken away from me. And I know that the kids are suffering immensly because of this. Their lives have been turned upside down and I can't even tell them why, all I can say is "mom and dad aren't getting along right now".<p>No, I don't want the M to end, she is my wife, durnit, and I will always love her. Maybe I am in some fog, but I really don't see the M as being as bad as W does. We have had some great times together, we had plans for the future, you know? We have also had some bad times, but we managed to pull through, at least until now.<p>On the plus side, I have actually gotten to know my in-laws a lot better than I ever had. I talk to them and SIL's a lot and you know what, they aren't all that bad. I used to keep my distance from them because W would tell me things about them that I didn't like. Maybe its true, but the side that I am seeing I like a lot, a lot of care and compassion from them. I'm even getting closer to my dad and sis, seen them more in the last few months that I have in a long time. I'm even starting to like my dads new girlfriend. Can you believe that, a 71 year old guy with a girlfriend, he is enjoying life again.<p>So, as far as the Plan A/Plan B question, I don't know anymore. It would be so much easier if W would just come out and admit her mistake and commit to rebuilding the M, that's just wishful BS thinking, I guess. Its not over by a longshot, just too much going on inside myself right now for me to make any rational decisions about the future. That's what is so great about these boards, you can actually talk yourself through these times.

RedHat-<p>I have seen many of your posts on this site, and you give me great courage to move forward. I just wanted to say "Thanks" your words have been right on target.<p> [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Just had a few thoughts - take'em or leave 'em.<p>Remember that your WW is in an ADDICTION -just like drugs or alcohol. It's like if you tried to tell a smoker to stop smoking or an alcoholic to stop drinking. They just can't, it's not that they are a bad person, they are just being controlled by an addiction right now.<p>Also, in Plan A you need to keep focused - I asked S Harley the key to a good Plan A - and he said you have to have a great support system - fmaily, friends, counselor, God. Without it it's almost impossible.<p>Yes, my WH made me sick too, and so I went to Plan B - but you have to be ready for that to be the END of your marriage. It's a big step.<p>Remember too that TIME is on your side. It takes awhile for As to end. But the odds are in your favor that they will - you just need to figure out what you need to do to keep yourself sane until then.<p>Have you been Plan Aing for 4 months? WW needs to see consistent changes and when they are in the fog they will 1)not admit they see changes and 2) it takes a long time for them to see changes.<p>Sometimes you have to over compensate - go overboard on some things for them to get the picture. <p>As for getting any respect from WS - forget it. Yes you will feel like a doormat - but you can't take it personally because they are in the midst of an addiction - fog. When they come out of fog it's likely they will either not remember what they did or choose to block it out of their mind.<p>If WW wants you to move back in - I'd finish the basement pronto - because it's easier to Plan A while in the same house, WS can see changes faster, and it's harder for them to keep up with an A while you are there. It brings more sneaking around and guilt on their part.<p>In Plan A you need to stay FOCUSED and write yourself a note or something when you are in an up mood to read and give you support when you are in a down mood.<p>Anyway - these are things I've learned after couseling with MB - not that I've always been able to follow them myself, but you may find them helpful.<p>Keep strong. K

Oh, I forgot to mention Plan B with kids - it depends upon their ages as to how they will react. But remember, you did not make this situation happen - WW did.<p>It does work if you have someone who will be able to be a third party - e-mail helps too, and we used the third party as the pick up and drop off place for the kids. You can also have set times for WW to call the kids and the n the kids can usually call the other parent whenever thay want.<p>I would have any changes in custody made before Plan B though. <p>Just be sure you want to go this route before embarking on it. K