I am pretty sure that my WW is still having an affair while living with me and telling me otherwise. I plan to give it until next week to stop but my guess is that she will not change her behavior. I need help creating an effective way to tell her about plan B. My counselor recommended to me that I script out what I would say.<p>If any of you good folk out there have used an effective plan B, I would welcome your feedback. The words you used, the setting, what you said, everything would be helpful. Thanks.

First, plan B is supposed to come after a solid plan A, that lasts several months. You have to demonstrate your ability to change and be a good husband, so that she can come back and work on the marriage. It's also important to avoid love-busting. It's not clear from this post whether you've done plan A, or not.<p>Plan B is a separation with no contact. There is no provision for showing you can be a good husband, while in plan B. You have to be prepared for the possibility that plan B will lead to divorce.<p>Now as far as the logistics, you have to work out all the details ahead of time. Who lives where, whether you will make any support payments, arrangements for kids (if any). Especially if there are kids, you need to check with a lawyer about protecting your rights to custody.<p>Plan B is announced in a letter. There are examples you can find in the book "Surviving an Affair" and on this board. You might want to post a draft here and get some feedback. This is an alternative to a script, because you can't control where a conversation goes even when following a script. I think it's best to hand her the letter, or leave it for her.<p>- Tom

Well, I have talked the the OMs spouse and I have learned a lot. My WW has been trying to get me to fall out of love with her so that so that I would file and she could move onto the other man. I am pretty certain at this point that no amount of plan a is going to work. In fact, she refuses to give me any access to her to do any plan a stuff while at the same time, she continues to see the OM.

Longing,<p>IMHO, you should be in plan A. You miss understood plan A. Plan A is not about fillin EN. It is not about no LB either. You fillin ENs only if your spouse allows you to in which it is a benefit to you to show your changes, but most WS will reject you since they receive it from OP. Don't get deperate by that. No LB is a requirement for any healthy relationship. Plan A is about you working on the issues on your M that you have control over. Plan A is not about changing her behavior right now ... the process of "out of love" takes time what do you think the process of "in love" will take, a few days ?. You have to give time, patience and consistency in your behavior.<p>Sorry being harsh but JMO, you have not done any plan A at all. Have you read Torizo's story ?. Please do.

I agree with that RedHat, but, I think I am being set up. I found two emails she sent to him that basically suggested that she is just stringing me along until they can be together. Perhaps you are right but the OM told his wife that they had conspired to get me to fall out of love with my wife.<p>I have so little access to my W (we do nothing together, no meals together, no social time together, we don't even go to church together - we are living as less than roommates) that I don't see how I can effectively do a plan A. Perhaps I am being hasty. She is just so consistantly dishonest that I don't know if I can trust the fact that she is actually giving me a chance.<p>I look forward to your replies. Perhaps you folk can help me devise an effective plan a with all the limitations I have to deal with.<p>Edit: I have only had one LB (to my knowledge) in two weeks. No change (in fact, things are worse).<p>[ January 31, 2002: Message edited by: Longing ]</p>

bump

Longing,<p>Questions again, What is OM's W reaction to all of OM's actions ?. Does OM have a history of infidelities ?. Try to get info as much as you can about OM, stack them against the odd of their A. The more lies and pattern the more likely A will dies and you just have to wait and watch OM to LB'ed. Does OM's W know about MB ?. Tell her to get online but do not tell her your screen name. OM might get a hold of it.<p>Honestly, out of my session w/ SH I felt slapped by his comment. SH told me that she doesn't feel safe near you !. I thought I did a good job on plan A, wrong !. I did LB that I thought a small LB but sure it is really big one for my wife. When my WW starts hurting me or disrepects me, I push back using reference to her A or OM. It stopped her actions but that doesn't help my plan A. She wasn't feel safe, she needs to let out her anger too. She was not happy in life and She is not happy now ... she puts out her anger. I should just say "Hmm, I have different feeling about it but I understand your feeling." my WW's A is an escaped A, not about OM at all. She is not happy w/ her life and blame me for it. Her A is not the answer and will die sonner or later.<p>If you could afford it, call MB, it helps me a lot specially when I have a burning question about MB or when I bang my head against the wall of A.<p>Fill in LBQ as if your W does it. From your posts, you did LB by chasing her with A or trying to push EN on her. Next is guess her ENs, you could use ENQ as a guideline, just the top 5 and not in any particular order. Now this is the hard part ... think what she complaint about your M ?, some of them justifications (excuses) some of them are facts. The facts is the basis for your changes or plan A. Even some justifications you should try to change it if it is within your mean to do it.<p>She sent you email ( the other post indicate it ), what is your reply ? When is the last time you make her feel special and feel wanted ?. Take her advances and work on it. I am the same boat as you are and my W doesn't even wants to acknowledge everything I do but don't despair.<p>I just seal an card (encouragement card from hallmark) with a sort note :<p>Dear W,
Every sleepless and lonely night I always asked my self, why ?. Why couldn't I move on ?. I have always arrived to the same answer,
because I love you and because you hold a very special meaning to my life.<p>Love,
H<p>She will ask me again to put it on the table ... she reads it later. I thought initally she did that on purpose to hurt me ... but now I am not sure, I think that she wants to read it alone !!!. I wish I could a fly on the wall to see her tears, I am planing to get remote VC to confirm it. Steve Harley might be correct on my plan A has an impact and you might not see it, WW is still rejecting me.<p>I will be on Men's Church retreat this weekend so I will be answering back on Sunday very late or maybe I could find a telephone line to plugged my laptop.<p>Good luck and God bless you.

Thanks for all your help redhat. I do have encouragement that the affair will not last, based on the OMs actions.<p>I have to say, though, that I moved to plan b. I was hurting far too much knowing that she was still seeing him but telling me she was not doing so. I would get paranoid every time she left the house. I have been physically sick and I don't think I could remain sane much longer.<p>She spent Friday night with him. They spent the evening making out in a bar then went to a hotel room together.<p>She tried to tell me that just because she is kissing him and spending time with him (she did not admit to sharing a room with him - nor did she deny it) that it does not mean she is in a relationship. The fog of denial is just too thick for me.<p>Again, perhaps I was hasty. I was just killing me from the inside out knowing that she would spend zero time with me in any setting while at the same time, spending all of her time with him. I know now that she may simply run into his arms but at least I don't have to know about it.<p>We are both going to counseling and I have no plans to divorce her. I pray for the patience and the strength necessary to await her decision.

My understanding was that you couldn't effectively do Plan A unless WW or WH was in no contact with OP? Isn't that right?<p>First, she has to agree to no contact with OP before Plan A will work!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Shannon1:
<strong>My understanding was that you couldn't effectively do Plan A unless WW or WH was in no contact with OP? Isn't that right?<p>First, she has to agree to no contact with OP before Plan A will work!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Nope, that's not right.<p>Plan A is done WHILE the WS in IN THE AFFAIR. <p>True HEALING of the marriage CANNOT begin until there is NO CONTACT.<p>Plan A is about YOU, and about making the marriage a SAFE place for your WS to return!

Hi, I just wanted to add that it does appear that you need to step back and re-think your Plan A, during this phase you should be the one healing, regardless of what your WS is doing. Its hard, I know I am living it, but in order for your W to see that you are a changed person you must demonstrate that you have forgiven yourself and her. Only then will you truly be able to become the Rock that weathers the storm in her life.<p>But you have to really give your self some time to heal and let go of past things. I hit a pretty low point the other nite, feeling so miserable and alone, and I kept thinking this hurts too much, why should I have to suffer like this? Well I dont know if the answer I have is the answer that you need, but if I feel this way, so out of touch, so lost, so hurt, so everything is wrong, then I know I love my W.<p>I hope you are able to set judgement aside and start focusing on the real issue, which at this point is not the A, its getting yourself healed and strong, keep reading the success stories here it will help you see how the BS has healed and forgiven themselves, then and only then can you truley lead/live/have a happy life, regardless whether or not your WS returns.<p>I dont mean to sound harsh, but sometimes it takes someone to push you to see new ideas, it helps, people have done it for me here, and I owe them a debt of gratitude.<p>Breath, Relax, Move Forward
You can do this! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I don't see it as possible for me to heal while she continues to have an affair and remain married to me/live with me. That makes not sense to me. As my counselor said, that is like be castrated daily as it happens.<p>Well, I forgave her (told her this weekend and again apologized for my role in it) for what she did but there is no forgiveness for what is to occur in the future. She told me this past weekend that she planned to try and make a relationship with him again. I cannot forgive that if it is onging -- at least not until it is over; again.<p>I have also forgiven myself. I know what I did wrong and am already a changed man. I will never be that man again.<p>We have moved to plan B. She has an apartment. I could not continue to live with her, as less than roommates, while she went out and spent time with him. That is letting myself be a doormat and I deserve better. Luckily, the OM has finally realized that he can't trust her to be honest either so he has called it off (as of yesterday). From what I can tell, she is all alone for the first time in her life (this is a good thing I think for her recovery). We still see each other and we talk but it as friends and nothing else.<p>She will not be allowed to move back in until she is ready to commit to the marriage. Right now, I just have to be patient and strong. I am trying to get healed and strong. I sinmply could not do it with her living with me. I am too weak around her currently. I am much better now that she is gone.

Update:<p>Still living seperately and the OM has called it off (Yaa!)<p>Now I will have to get over the additional fact that if she had her chioce, she would likely still be with him.<p>The OM is going to counseling to break his addiction to her. He is not to see her, be friends with her, or to be physical with her. Hopefully such will help him to break his addiction. Unfortunately, they work together and see each other every day so it is going to be hard on both of them.<p>The OM and his wife are working on being friends. I have great hope for them.<p>No change for me and my WW, though. She still has too many emotional issues (disorders) that she has to work out before she knows what she wants to do. I am trying to be her friend but I have rediscovered my anger so it is difficult.<p>Patience is a virtual and I wish I was more virtuous.

Longing,<p>In spite of what everyone has said, I think Plan B might very well be what was needed. It was mentioned that Plan B is to have no contact. I think your healing would be best if you didn't see her. I know that will be hard for you as you want to be her friend. She is alone now in her apartment and she might very well find peace to understand and heal herself. <p>Use this time to continue to be a better man and husband. Do you work out or have other hobbies to keep you busy?<p>Believe it or not, I think this could be a good thing for you both!<p>Take care!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

It has been good for me in many ways. I have refound my faith, I have developed new friendships, I have lost 20lbs. ;-)<p>I tried to break contact with her (as my counselor recommended as well as plan B) but she manipulated me by threatening to run to the OM and stated that we would have no chance. Obviously, I was weak and told her that I did not want that. Still, I will not go out of my way to see her and in fact will try to avoid contact with her (without her noticing if possible). LBs are in the eye of the beholder and if she knew I was avoiding her, it would be a LB.<p>Now that the OM seems to be out of the picture, she has no one to run to if I don't give her what she wants. She was a cakeater for a long time and it is now hard for her to have no cake at all.<p>I have been exercising more and doing more activities than previsously. It is difficult because all of my friends where we live were her friends first so I have been cut off from them.<p>Staying active and improving my self-image is helping. It would be nice to simply forget about her for awhile.<p>[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: Longing ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I tried to break contact with her (as my counsel or recommended as well as plan B) but she manipulated me by threatening to run to the OM and stated that we would have no chance. Obviously, I was weak and told her that I did not want that.<hr></blockquote><p>Okay so you were weak, but you can recover! It was blatent manipulation - don't allow her control you that way. I would simply say If that's what you choose to do, that is you're choice!. I know, I'm one to talk! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good luck and it sounds like you're doing great for yourself!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Longing I agree with you that you do not deserve to be treated this way. Ask yourself this question, could you ever trust such a woman at all? if not then your marriage is already doomed.<p>Plan B totally. She has lost OM and now she will loose you but only if you stand firm and she sees that you are not her doormat.<p>No one respects a man without dignity and it's useless to try to rebuild your marriage with such a woman that is still selfish and doesn't care about your feelings and doesn't know the difference between right and wrong.<p>Good luck and God bless.<p>Joe

I saw her last night and it did nothing but hurt me. I am moving to a total plan b (as much as is possible with our situation). It just hurts too much to see her or to speak to her under these conditions. I feel completely miserable while I am with her and just as low when she is gone. I ache to hug her goodbye when she leaves.<p>It is almost as if I relapse into my own addiction every time I see her. I have to break that addiction because it simply is not healthy or respectful for me.<p>I don't know if I could ever trust her again. Does anyone really know at this point? I do know that I still want to be married to her and that I still love her. I guess with love, anything is possible.

Good morning, Longing,<p>I so understand where you are at emotionally! I am still under the same roof with my WH and although it's a bit more relaxing knowing where we're moving to (Plan B) and I have started to detach, I still love him very much.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>It is almost as if I relapse into my own addiction every time I see her. I have to break that addiction because it simply is not healthy or respectful for me.<hr></blockquote><p>I, too, think my H is my addiction. It's sick to think that I can love a man so much yet get pooped on by him repeatedly.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I guess with love, anything is possible.<hr></blockquote><p>I'm starting to recognize that love alone is not enough, especially when it's a one-sided love! I want more - I want and need the trust along with the love.<p>I wish you continued success in your recovery and healing!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

HUGE UPDATE (man, things sure can change in a week).<p>As I said, the OM ended things last Monday. On Friday, I told her that I intended to move forward with a complete plan B. It was not 10 minutes later that she called me and said that she wanted to work on our marriage and that she put her ring back on.<p>Now, to me, much of that screams desperation and loneliness. And, I think that is much the case. She has never really been alone. She is not very emotionally mature. Much of her actions and responses are very much "high school" (at least three people have stated such to me). I also still have deep resentment over the fact that I feel as though she is settling for me so I have issues I still have to work out on my own (or in group counseling). We did have a very good day at church together on Sunday and then out to lunch with some church friends.