Here is an update from this weekend.
We had a nice weekend. Talked about the difficulties in our life and where to go/what to do. Got along wonderfully. <p>Last night. We talked a little more. H says he thinks he needs to separate so he can have time to think. Not sure what he wants, goes back an forth between working on it and ending it. Feels very lost and confused. Thinks that time away would help him sort out his feelings.<p>Problems with this. We have separated before and both times I found out (via his admissions) that he spent nights with OW. Not sure if I can do this separation with that knowldege. He says HE WILL NOT SEE HER. That it's not about her.<p>I would feel much better if he stayed with our married friends but he want's to stay with one of his single guy friends. He has never told me where his guy lives, I do not know his phone #. He does not want me calling this guys house, etc. I would feel much safer if he were with our married friends. Yes, because I would know where he was. Is it wrong of me to want that?<p>What do I do to help this marriage survive? Is there any hope? Can I plan A while separated? Can I plan A while separated with OW in picture? <p>I also posted this in the Recovery section.<p>If you read some of my earlier posts (on the Recovery Borad), you know that I am a big snoop but also very honest. When I find something I ask about it and it's gotten me into a lot of trouble with WH. <p>On Tuesday, I did one of my snoops and found a check for $200 writen out to her the week before. I asked about it and he said it was for expenses when he lived with her. OK, fine. However, he did not like the snooping thing (nothing new). Anyway, the next few days were fairly bad, with him saying that he might not be able to do this any longer.<p>Then yesterday he said that he would still like to have a nice V-Day with me and I agreed. I did everything I planned. I took off half a day in order to get it all done. He called me to say that he would probably be stopping by her place to pick up some tax forms he got in the mail and wanted to do it since she would not be there (he still has a key). Said she left him a VM on his office phone. I said fine and thanks for telling me, you made my heart swell. He said you are welcome. Anyway, I tried calling him and he does not pick up or call me back for about two hours. I start getting nervous and thinking about the fact that it's V-Day but put it out of my head. He comes home and we have a great night.<p>Then this morning I snoop again. I find a receipt for $80 at the Bath & Body Works dated 2/13/02. Needless to say, I got Ralph Lauen parfume and nothing from Bath & Body. I don't say a word to him about it. But my heart was sinking. All the I love you's and the love that we made the night before again seemed like a big lie. <p>So, we talk a little this morning about the events earlier in the week. And he says he is thinking about 3 scenarios: 1. Continue to work on it, 2. Go for the Big D, or 3. Separate and live with a friend while we work on it. Needless to say, option 2&3 both suck. I don't like #3 because everytime we separated in the past, he was still seeing her and I don't think I would feel comfortabale this time around.<p>So, my question to everyone is Do I go to Plan B now? Quick snapshot- D-day in July, H fence sat till Nov and then moved back in Dec saying he wanted to work it out. I THOUGHT we were in recovery and use Jan. as a start date. Is he in the fog? Should I give Plan A a little more time?<p>I am really and could use some major help.<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: need2bhappy ]<p>[ February 19, 2002: Message edited by: need2bhappy ]<p>[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: need2bhappy ]</p>

need2bhappy,<p>Snooping is very hard on us, but you need to do it to measure your plan A and also to check if WS is laying. You are doing the correct thing by avoiding to confront H. Snooping is used only for informational only, not to confront WS, to fill in the missing pieces. <p>I am glad that you have a nice V-Day. In plan A you should lower your expectation or even no expectation at all. Putting your expectation will only get you hurt even further. You fillin your H's EN whenever allowed and do not expect H could do that yet. He is still in his fog and cake-eater too.<p>What is your H preferences about M out of 3 options ?.<p>IMHO you should give plan A more time. He fills in some of your EN, he allows you to fill in some of his ... it is easier to do plan A since there is no rejections. What you need to do is review your plan A. Have you address all the issues ?. <p>Last time in false recovery, do you use SAA guideline on ending A w/ no contact letter and willingness to do 4 rules for recovery ?.

redhat,<p>Thanks. I was hoping someone would respond.
Let me try to answer all your questions.<p>
[B][/B]What is your H preferences about M out of 3 options ?. Idont know yet. We are supposed to discuss it tonight. But I don't think I can to option 3. Too much hurt rom the past when he was supposed to be staying with a friend and was living, sleeping with her.<p>My H will NOT, commit to MB. I don't know if we have addressed all the issues. I asked him if I am fulfilling all his EN's and he said yes. Please keep in mind, he probably does not know what all the EN's are. I do know that his #1 would be SF and I have more than fulfilled that. We have more SF than we ever have. There is more passion, fire and steam. He said that it's far better than with her. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>He is actually doing a good job with my EN's. There are a few I would like him to do better on but again, we have not addressed them. I would love to go over the EN questions (mine are filled out) tonight.<p>Do you think the fog will lift with continued contact with OW? He says he wants the marriage But he also want's to be happy, even if that means without me. I too want to be happy, with or without him but I TRULY prefer with him. <p>We have not used SAA, a no contact letter (he refuses). And I have not approached him about the 4 rules. Maybe tonight.

need2bhappy,<p>Right now your H is cake-eater however you have more than slight advantage than most of us ... some of your EN are met and some of his are met. I would not push H to no contact again, you mention it once but H refuses, let it go for now. I would not push 4 rules either, ask but not pushing it. While OW is still in the picture, your M will not recover ... so you have to plan A ... Again you get your H to fill out ENQ and LBQ is already a lot. My W says if love me you should know everything about me, what a fogesse.<p>So stay in plan A and do your best !!!. NO LB is a requirement. You basically have to compete in ENs department with OW best you can. You already win the top EN [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ... check the rest of top 5. You are doing great !. Don't beat the dead horse of asking him to dump OW ... you do that after you are done with your plan A. Let him choose.

need - OK, here's my take for what it's worth:<p>Stop snooping so much.<p>WHY?<p>Because you already know all you need to know.<p>He's been abducted by aliens!<p>There's nothing else to know.<p>Seriously, continued snooping will do nothing but re-confirm what you already know. There's no need to re-prove it to your self and it's futile to try to prove it to him.<p>Hopefully, he'll eventually clear his head, renounce his affair, and send a "no contact" letter. Only then should you consider further snooping.<p>So, what do you do in the meantime?<p>Plan A and Plan B.<p>You titled your post, "Should I move to Plan B or hold tight a little longer?" Have you demontrated your Plan A improvements?<p>If not, you're not ready for Plan B. You HAVE to do this. In the best case, he has already acknowledged your improvements, but don't be discouraged if he hasn't. You have to satisfy yourself that you've demonstrated your improvements. If you have, that's the first test.<p>Are you physically separated? If not, you CAN'T move to Plan B.<p>Lastly, have you written your Plan B letter? Obviously, this has to be done.<p>So, make a checklist:<p>Demonstrated improvements, yes or no?<p>Physically separated, yes or no?<p>A "NO" to either one equates to more Plan A.<p>Don't initiate a separation just to affirmatively answer the second question!!!<p>Don't do ANYTHING to further the demise of your marriage. Make HIM do this by NOT making the move on your own. In this way, no matter what happens, you will be guilt free.<p>I hope this helps.

Remember - Plan B is also for you - to protect your love for WH. And you need to be ready for the end of the relationship too.<p>It's not a strategy that you should count on to make WH choose you.<p>Set your time limit for Plan A - make improvements. Keep checking yoruself for lost love units and then right before you think you will lose all love ofor WH, then you go to Plan B.<p>Usually, if you have to ask, you're not ready.<p>You are also doing whatever you need to do while you are waiting for the A to end. If you don't LB and enough time goes by, usually the A ends and WH should come back. If you feel you'll lose love, then you wait in Plan B. But like I said - Plan B may also lead to divorce. <p>K

If I were in your situation, I would Plan A for a little longer. I am not in your situation, my WH moved out 2 weeks ago. I am still trying to Plan A, but I have also realized Plan A is all about me, me being happy again. I can actually tell my H enjoys my company sometimes. I can tell it is also painful to him to be away from us right now. (we have 2 daughters) especially when he realizes I can be happy and move on without him. I can tell it bothers him if I go out with another guy- I do not do anything unfaithful- I just enjoy attention and especially the company. <p>As far as the snooping goes, I would not do it for a while. Simply because, the more you know the more you hurt. You already know there is an affair. What more is needed. My H moved into another apt. where we already lives. I have to pass his place several times daily. I have actually started going out of my way when coming or going, so I dont have to see her car there, or his truck gone and wonder if he is with her or not. I just feel like if there is any pain I can spare myself, I should.
Now, when the A is over, and you are working on recovery, snooping may be required, for your protection. I would also give Plan A a set time limit. Dont give up yet, (((((hugs)))) and good luck.
heather [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

Bump- Have an update.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by need2bhappy:
<strong>Bump- Have an update.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>What is your H's decision on #1,#2 or #3 ?. What are the top 5 En of your H ?. How do you stack against OW in H point of view & in yout point of view ?. How did your long weekend go ?.<p>If you are looking for plan B approval you are out numbered ... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . It is hard in plan A but be patience, giving time and be consistent.

Redhat,<p>Thanks for posting, I was hoping to hear from you.<p>Please see the first 5 paragraphs of this post, it's an update.<p>We had a nice weekend but H still want's to go with option #3 (YUCK). I am having a real hard time with it. I was thinking of offering the option to be separate in our own house but don't think he will bite.<p>Still don't know what his EN's are, we never got to that. I approached all the MD stuff very delicately and he seemed he seemed slightly interested but never really inquired further.<p>Don't mind being out numbered on Plan B, not ready for it. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] Wish I was. I hope I/we can make it through this separation. Guess the fog is pretty thick for him right now. Although we would sware on a stack of Bibles that OW is not part of his doubt. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

need2bhappy,<p>I missed your edit ... I just read it. Sorry that your H choose #3 ... most likely A is still rampant. Most likely H feels gulity to stay home and having A. Yes, I agree with you to try to make H stays home but it is not a total lost if he decides to move out. You could plan A from far and most of us have OP in the picture.<p>Yes, you could fill in his EN by yourself, at least you could guess it. Do so, it iwll help your plan A. How about LBQ ? do the same thing.<p>My W swore on her mother grave that she doesn't have A back on April '2001 ... OM was in the pictures that time. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] . When their selfishness take control of them, you wonder if you want to find out how far they could go. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] I almost could not forgave her for that I love my MIL, she is a very wise woman.<p>What are H complaint in M about you ?. Have you worked on it ?. If you have and your H sees the changes in you ... you might want to use CarrolKH's Venusian Lady steps. It works if your H doesn't have any issues on your love for him but try to be cakeman.<p>Catch you later

Redhat,
Thanks again.<p>Yesterday we talked about option #3 and some variations of it. Then last night he just said forget it, it is to difficult, he does not have it within himself to continue, the love for me has died. He says he will always love and care for me but the romantic love is gone. Says he can't continue since I will never forget and I will never trust. Asked for more time, (it's only been 7 weeks). He said it's better for both of us this way. <p>During both conversations, he said that he want's this to work out but he just thinks we are kidding ourselves, that we can never recover.
He continues to sware that OW is not in the picture. Said he does not want to travel down that road again with her. <p>So, I cried, we yelled, we talked some more and both calmed down. Then he said prove to me that you can forget and trust and then maybe I can come home. He said no promises but there is always a chance. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So, do I continue to Plan A? If so how? Escpecialy if SF is his #1 EN. We have joked in the past the we would still have SF even if we D. Should I distance myself? If so, how much?<p>Part of me is dying and so upset and lost, part of me is content and at peace, part of me is just confused since there seemed to be so many postives, part of me is looking forward to the future. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

Is he willing to go to ANY counseling with you? If so, GET IN SUCH! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>This would be a good time for the POJA. If he is determined to move out, you can negotiate where he will stay. It is very much a good faith action his part to stay in a place that would make you feel comfortable.<p>If he is absolutely determined to live with his single friend and refuses to work on the marriage, then I fear that you have little choice but to plan B (with a twist). Let him know that you love him and that you know that it is possible to save the marriage. Let him know that when he is ready to work on the marriage, that he is welcome back. The key is that he is not welcome back until he is ready to work on the marriage. It is too destructive to you for him to go back and forth. Perhaps he would need to demonstrate his willingness in counseling.<p>Even if he is unwilling to go to counseling, it may not be a bad idea for just you to go.<p>Plan A from a distance can be very difficult, especially when you spouse is completely unwilling.

Longing,
Thanks. Let me answer your questions.<p>No, H is not willing to do ANY M. Will not move on that one.<p>I tried to ask him to negogiate with me on where he will stay and hit a brick wall. In fact, he wanted to move with single guy and work on M. After I made my suggestions, it was move in with single guy and not work on M [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] He is not willing to make me feel comfortable. I really belive he is not at the sigle guy's place but at OW's place. <p>I was thinking Plan B with a twist too. Only question, does the twist mean we still have no contact with each other? <p>One small problem. My H feels that he has been working on the M and doing a darn good job of it. He has done ok, but has by far not given me what I truly needed to feel safe. I don't think he cares if I feel safe. He feels that it is me and only me who failed this time and now I must PAY by loosing the only thing I wanted and worked so hard at. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>One other thing. I think he sends mixed messages and therefore I think he is in a deep fog or just very lost and confused. One minute he says that he loves me and has felt closer, next he does not. One moment he says that he can't go on like this and the next he says that he would really like to see this marriage work but feels that there is too much pain and hurt to get past. Then he tells me if I can prove to him that I can trust and forget that maybe he would be willing to give it another shot. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] So now, I am the confused one.<p>This really stinks. I made some mistakes and so has he but I am willing to overlook his, yet he can't over look mine. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I really think there is love there it is just so covered up.

need2bhappy,<p>I vote for trying Venusian Tricks ... read CarolKH's link. It seems that your H will move out no matter what, let it go. However you should test 180 degree, not all of them just the one to test the water ... Basically you pull a bit on fillin EN, and see if he is reaching you. If he baits then you know you could do full blast. If he reaches you, give him the cheese and then pull back again harder and wait. Read DivorceRemedy, but do not use it full blast, test it first and see if it works for you. It works best with guys and a bit of love left.

redhat,<p>Not sure what all of your post was talking about. I read the post and found it very interesting. I think that would work with my H. In fact, last time we separated, I showed independence and he came running back in a week. Unfortunately, I did not know the rules and gave in way too fast.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <hr></blockquote>However you should test 180 degree, not all of them just the one to test the water ... <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <hr></blockquote><p>What do you mean by not all of them just the one, just the one?? <p>Where do I find out more about Venusian Tricks? Is it in Divorce Busting?<p>You wrote: It works best with guys and a bit of love left. Do you mean best WITH guys with a bit of love left? If so, I think my H still does have a bit of love left for me, in fact, I think there is more there than he is willing to admit.<p>Thanks again. I look forward to anything you or anyone has to offer.

need2bhappy,
Yes, divorceBusting/divorceRemedy. In divorceRemedy there are steps to pull back and let H to reach out to you. I would test one of them and see if he reaches you. For instance, if you used to say I love you at the end of phone conversation, stop saying it and let him wonders and notice. Test it first ... if he notice and ask you why. Let H know a small step that you want H to make and he could easily make. When he took the bait you go back saying it again. Now you know you could do 180 degree pull back. You could train H that way. However if love is one of the issues it won't work and for some reason since guys do not think with the stuff between their ears but between their legs, this lure and bait works well.

Hey Redhat,<p>Thanks for clarifying.<p>I had an interesting yesterday and would like to give you a brief run down to see what you think. Would not mind some one to one with CarolKH<p>Sent H an E-mail asking if he could watch the kids on the 8th as I wanted to make plans. He responded, with yes and saying it was nice to get my e-mail. He also said that he was wondering how I was doing and " I sincerely hope you are as good as can be and respond to this e-mail if you like." Well, I never responded. He paged me and then called my cell around 4 pm and I did not pick-up the page or the call. He left a msg. telling me he rec'd the e-mail and responded but it looked like I did not open his. Said no need to call back, so I did not and that he would talk to me when he called the kids. <p>So he called them at 8, we talked a little and he spoke with the kids. <p>THEN at 7am today he calls to see how I was and if the kids were acting better than the night before. I said yes, they were fine this AM, asked if he wanted to speak with them and he did. They goofed around and it was kind of funny. I made sure he got a play by play of their looks and actions so he could see what he was missing. We talked a little more about our D's B-day party and what needed to be done. I told him, if he was planning on seeing the kids tonight to please call me before hand. He asked why and I just said so that I know when to expect you. <p>Well, that's about it. I am not sure but I think he is a little surprised by my actions, not begging, not talking about us and what we can do etc. He would really be surprised if he knew I am seeing my Attorney tomorrow. Not sure what I plan on doing but just need to prepare myself.<p>Thanks again. Any other advice is welcome. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

need2bhappy,<p>I will cut and paste Longing's reply to Espie ...
He is a Martian [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] .<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Longing:
<strong>Men have to be trained some times. You are training him to behave a certain way. Much like a pet, if he does what you wish (having a discussion), you need to reward him with kindness. If you are training a pet and they do an OK job at something but don't get it quite right, you still reward them a little. You don't train a pet (well at least I hope most don't) with negative reinforcement.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>The only thing that I want to add is you have to give him a bit of reward if he bites the lure. Make him feel like wanted ... [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . After a period of time you pull back again w/ a bigger bait. You have to be patience and it takes time.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Well, that's about it. I am not sure but I think he is a little surprised by my actions, not begging, not talking about us and what we can do etc. He would really be surprised if he knew I am seeing my Attorney tomorrow. Not sure what I plan on doing but just need to prepare myself.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good job. This is plan A all about, focus on you not us or him.