My WH and I went to dinner the other night and after a couple drinks each we were able to talk a bit without either of us getting heated. We only scratched the surface and didn't really dig too deep, but it was light conversation about this dark cloud hanging over our M.<p>Since that night we have really opened our dialogue about our issues - still not really digging too much, but we agree we really need to dig and get to the root of his need for constant female affirmations (even when it's great between us at home).<p>We have agreed to get a bottle of wine and start the ball rolling - with some ground rules so we don't just end up bashing each other. <p>I've confessed a few things to him and I think he feels a little freer to share his secrets. I shared with him that I've felt like running into a tree on more than one occassion during the last two years and I also confessed that in our current state I feel extremely vulnerable to have an PA of my own (seriously considering it). <p>I gave him the letter that was posted recently from BS to WS explaining why the truth is needed to be able to put the puzzle together fully. He said he started reading it last night, but that was all he said. <p>I also started reading the bok Boundaries and find it interesting. I know I have boundaries, but I am always readjusting the lines when he crosses them instead of inforcing them. My WH on the other hand has absolutely no boundaries when it comes to other women he comes in contact with.<p>My question is - do we go this path? Is this his way of manipulating me so he doesn't have to move out? We haven't stopped Plan B plans yet, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to consider this. I do think it needs to be done at some point, whether we divorce or not, so we can fully heal as individuals and not drag this around with us.<p>Thank you for reading and I look forward to any and all comments!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Free2BMe ]</p>

Free2BMe,<p>Well, here's my opinion, for what it is worth.<p>Discussing the outstanding issues is necessary, if you are thinking of trying to recover your M. But, it is a long, long way from being even a small step towards recovery. By my best recollections, you and your H have gone 'round this mullberry bush' more than a few times - you pull away, he chases you, you try to resist, he talks about a woman at work, you feel protective of what you have with your H, you open up, he opens up, eventually he makes promises of big changes, you agree to stay together and do everything it takes to rebuild your M. Well, you know cycle better than I do.<p>So, at this stage, I think you need really BIG CHANGES, not discussions, not revelations, not promises, but real, consistent, reliable changes. To start with, your H has some recurring problems when it comes to resisting temptation in the form of other women, whether real flesh and blood women or the airbrushed photo variety (if I remember correctly). He was in a sexual addiction programme for a while, was he not? Clearly your H has either a sexual addiction or a serious boundaries issue. The first place to start, and this is for him to do honestly and candidly, is a boundaries assessment; the boundaries assessment might point to a sexual addiction or something along the lines and the expert can recommend the appropriate recovery programme to follow. Whatever the problem is called, your H will need to commit to breaking this habit once and for all time; like other addictions, he will simply have to adopt a lifestyle that keeps him away from his temptations.<p>The assessment and recovery program for your H's longstanding problem is an absolute must, IMHO. Without it and continued vigilance on his part, your M will continue to be vulnerable because your H will not be applying the Rule of Protection in a meaningful way (given his propensities).<p>If he actually does this, in a manner which is completely transparent to you and which involves you in a co-dependent's programme, then I think you will have a necessary element of a M recovery plan in progress.<p>Then there is the rest of the recovery plan to discuss, agree upon, and implement. You have been around here as long (if not longer) than I have; so I won't repeat what you already know about the other elements of a workable plan.<p>So ask yourself this Free, do you have it in you to go through one more round? Do you have the strength and the will to invest in your M, to give an assessment and programme the time it will take, to come up with and then work at a recovery plan for the months to come? Remember, if your H is serious about overcoming his boundaries issues, he can do that with or without you in his daily life. I would go as far as to say that if he is serious, then he would do it notwithstanding plan B (and separate living arrangements) being in place. Have you thought about going to plan B as contemplated, and leaving it to him to show you that he is serious about his own personal recovery? If he can seek out an assessment and follow a programme, and show you with consistent and sustained conduct that he IS (not he promises to) breaking his old patterns, then you might have the start of a recovery plan.<p>Frankly, my opinion is that you should stick to going to a strong plan B. Prior to physically separating, you can still have your discussions about what could be done BY HIM; but none of that should change your plan B. What those disucssions would do, however, is give your H a very clear map of what he needs to do, the changes he needs to implement before you will consider re-investing in M recovery.<p>Perhaps I am a little jaded after more than 1.5 years of post-d-day h***. But, forcing a separation was the best thing I did in recovery, as strange as that may sound. In fact, I think I agreed to reconcile too quickly. If I had it to do over again, I would have continued with the separation for a few more months. But then, hindsight is 20/20.<p>As usual, just my long-winded thoughts.<p>Hugs,<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: OneDay ]</p>

Originally posted by OneDay:
<strong>Well, here's my opinion, for what it is worth.</strong><p>It is worth a million dollars to me at this point. Thanks so much for taking the time to write such well thought out replies.<p><strong>By my best recollections, you and your H have gone 'round this mullberry bush' more than a few times</strong> <p>We have gone 'round and 'round and I intimated as much to him recently. I told him we need to get to the root of the problems here so we can finally heal and move forward.<p><strong>To start with, your H has some recurring problems when it comes to resisting temptation in the form of other women, whether real flesh and blood women or the airbrushed photo variety (if I remember correctly).</strong><p>We discussed his inability to set boundaries with women this morning, but again, we've discussed this with a few different counselors and our pastor in the past. He just never follows through.<p>You are correct in your memory - porn is a big issue (movies and pictures).<p><strong>He was in a sexual addiction programme for a while, was he not?</strong><p>No, he went through outpatient drug rehab. a year or two before we met. Since we met and had issues he went to AA a few times and I went to Al-anon for about 3 weeks.<p><strong>Clearly your H has either a sexual addiction or a serious boundaries issue. The first place to start, and this is for him to do honestly and candidly, is a boundaries assessment; the boundaries assessment might point to a sexual addiction or something along the lines and the expert can recommend the appropriate recovery programme to follow. Whatever the problem is called, your H will need to commit to breaking this habit once and for all time; like other addictions, he will simply have to adopt a lifestyle that keeps him away from his temptations.</strong><p>Do we need to go to a counselor for an assesment? I really don't know if he could honestly do something like this. I did see a workbook by Patrick Carnes for the sex addict to use in recovery. There were sheets to write down secrets and when they occur. It was interesting, but again, I don't think he could be honest even with himself.<p><strong>If he actually does this, in a manner which is completely transparent to you and which involves you in a co-dependent's programme, then I think you will have a necessary element of a M recovery plan in progress.</strong><p>There used to be a local chapt of Co-Da, but I haven't seen it in the paper in a while. I know this is something I need as I see my past patterns.<p><strong>So ask yourself this Free, do you have it in you to go through one more round? Do you have the strength and the will to invest in your M, to give an assessment and programme the time it will take, to come up with and then work at a recovery plan for the months to come?</strong><p>At this point I just don't know! <p><strong>Frankly, my opinion is that you should stick to going to a strong plan B.</strong><p>I think you are right. I don't feel I should be the one to tell him what needs to be done. If he's serious then he'll come up with the plan and implement it himself. I'm setting myself up because I'm giving him hints and so far he's not fully understanding.<p>Thank you for your thoughts!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Free2BMe ]</p>

Hello again, Free:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Free2BMe:
<strong>We discussed his inability to set boundaries with women this morning, but again, we've discussed this with a few different counselors and our pastor in the past. He just never follows through.<p>You are correct in your memory - porn is a big issue (movies and pictures).<hr></blockquote></strong><p>The follow through is the only part that can actually change the the pattern. His saying he has boundaries problems when it comes to women (real, unreal or imagined) is pretty useless he DOES SOMETHING ABOUT IT.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>He was in a sexual addiction programme for a while, was he not?</strong><p>No, he went through outpatient drug rehab. a year or two before we met. Since we met and had issues he went to AA a few times and I went to Al-anon for about 3 weeks.<hr></blockquote><p>Then your H is not as far along in his acceptance of his own problems as I thought. As they say with any addiction, the first step is to admit there is a problem and then to take action to overcome the problem. Your H has not done either in any real way, has he?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Do we need to go to a counselor for an assesment? I really don't know if he could honestly do something like this. I did see a workbook by Patrick Carnes for the sex addict to use in recovery. There were sheets to write down secrets and when they occur. It was interesting, but again, I don't think he could be honest even with himself.<hr></blockquote></strong><p>As I understand it, anyone truly qualified to deal with boundaries issues does some form of assessment to determine the kind and severity of the problem. That gives the counsellor a starting point for recommending the right kind of treatment. I think the Carnes books and workbook are good, but you raise the biggest obstacle which is whether your H can do it on his own. From what I have read (and I have done some reading on boundaries issues), it is very difficult to overcome these problems alone; at the very least, an accountability partner is necessary (same sex), much the same as the AA programmes. Another difficulty with the workbook approach is the level of honesty that your H would apply to the exercise. So, I think HIS going to counselling with an expert in boundaries issues (not any old counsellor, as many have the wrong approach to temptation and lust - 'everyone feels that, it is no big deal') is a must.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>There used to be a local chapt of Co-Da, but I haven't seen it in the paper in a while. I know this is something I need as I see my past patterns.<hr></blockquote></strong><p>I think this is a very good point. You should be thinking about what can help you heal, with or without your H and your M.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Frankly, my opinion is that you should stick to going to a strong plan B.</strong><p>I think you are right. I don't feel I should be the one to tell him what needs to be done. If he's serious then he'll come up with the plan and implement it himself. I'm setting myself up because I'm giving him hints and so far he's not fully understanding.<hr></blockquote><p>You should not be the one telling him what he needs to do. You are 100% right about that. But isn't that what your bottle of wine discussion would amount to?<p>This is your H's problem. He needs to accept it, admit he has a problem, want to overcome the problem, and take responsibility for making the changes necessary. And yes, he should come up with a plan and implement it himself. The thing is, Free, you have already talked to him about all this stuff; he knows exactly what it will take, with or without your input. Really it is a matter of whether he is going to look at himself in the mirror honestly and do the hard work. You can't do any of that for him. You can encourage, you can support, you can try to help - but haven't you done all that already, many, many times over?<p>When I asked my H to move out (and btw, he moved out within 2 days of my forcing the issue), I made it very clear to him that I needed to go to plan C (which would have been plan B had it not been for our very young children) for two reasons: (1) that I needed to heal personally and it was clear from the preceding year that it was not happening while living with him; and (2) that I was no longer taking responsibility (or sharing it) for his longstanding problems, he needed to decide whether he was going to take responsbility for them and fix them by himself. Truly, the three month separation accomplished more on both fronts than anything else in the past year and a half.<p>Keep talking to us. Okay?<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: OneDay ]</p>

<strong>When I asked my H to move out (and btw, he moved out within 2 days of my forcing the issue), I made it very clear to him that I needed to go to plan C (which would have been plan B had it not been for our very young children) for two reasons: (1) that I needed to heal personally and it was clear from the preceding year that it was not happening while living with him; and (2) that I was no longer taking responsibility (or sharing it) for his longstanding problems, he needed to decide whether he was going to take responsbility for them and fix them by himself. Truly, the three month separation accomplished more on both fronts than anything else in the past year and a half.</strong><p>This struck me profoundly! Forget the nuts and bolts and digging - this is what it all boils down to.<p>We discussed this morning that it does all come back to me not sure if I could ever trust him again (even if he became a saint). He said he really didn't think I could.<p>I will discuss his finding an interim place to stay while he waits for the apartment to open up. Actually, I think he's lying about the date for the apartment and I've thought about calling the complex office, but I just don't feel motivated to go backwards.<p>Again, I'm trying to do things for him. It really isn't my problem to worry about where he'll stay. I feel badly he has put us in this place and I feel badly for his 2 boys (12 & 14) who will suffer his displacement. I'm trying to make an easy transition for him.<p>This is good to "talk" with you! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hello Free,<p>How are you holding up? Did your H ask about that 'bottle of wine' discussion?<p>OneDay

Good morning,<p>Thank you for thinking of me today.<p>My H had an event with his son last night so he didn't get home until after 9:30.<p>We have a rehearsal/dinner tonight and a wedding tomorrow so the weekend will be filled with events to keep us from our talk.<p>Frankly, I bet if I don't bring up the letter I gave him or mention the talk - I doubt he will either.<p>I can see I'm trying to figure both of us out and it's not my job - I need to work within myself and figure out my own confusion. And he needs to work on himself and explain it to me. Am I correct in this?<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

I am glad you checked here.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Free2BMe:
<strong>I can see I'm trying to figure both of us out and it's not my job - I need to work within myself and figure out my own confusion. And he needs to work on himself and explain it to me. Am I correct in this?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You've got it!<p>You look after you, in the manner that you need to in order to feel the best you can. Keep him out of the equation. He looks after himself and his issues; and it is up to him to show you that he is making progress and has what it takes to be in the kind of M you want.<p>On the looking after you side of things, what is your plan B deadline? Are you going to ask him to leave sooner or let him hang around until April 1?

I want to ask him to move out sooner than April 1st. I don't think I can do this for 30 days and it'll probably get swept under the rug again and never happen until my mistrust builds to an unbearable level again.<p>I'm not looking forward to this wedding (I am as I really like this guy), but not in the sense of watching my H in action. He said he'll be by my side. I just hope I don't get triggered and get in a depressed funk. I want to enjoy myself. <p>This guy who's getting married was my H's accountability partner last year. They would get together each day and read the bible and discuss their situations (porn). This guy knew of the possibility of one OW, but my H even lied to him about contact so even with tools in place it'll only work if he's willing. So far it's all been lip service.<p>I fear him getting upset with me if I again waffle about the next month. I'm just trying to have an easy transition for everyone, but it's not doing ME any good.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Last night we had the wedding for the guy my H works with and my H was in the wedding.<p>Two pieces of information made me uneasy and unable to fully enjoy the evening:

• During the reception line after the ceremony I was walking with anothr coworker of my H's and we were talking about how they had to work today. My H had told me who was working with him last week and OW name never came up. Apparently she'll be there (as told to me by other male coworker). My first reaction was to question my H right there at the church, but I didn't - not until this morning. I was going to wait and see how the day went and whether he came home late or not, but I just said over coffee that I didn't know if he was just too nervous to tell me or if she was a last minute addition, but I knew she was going to be there. H said he didn't know how to tell me. I'm very nervous today, but I think I handled it fine.
• The other thing that really unnerved me was that although my H was extremely attentive to me the whole night (kissing me and dancing all night), he told me at one point that the maid of honor told him she wanted to dance with him. He told me he would fast dance with her if she did ask, but not slow dance. From that point on I was watching her like a hawk to see if my H was watching her or if they exchanged looks or a dance. It never did happen and she did have a date with her so I think she never said that to him. She never glanced his way or searched him out for the dance so I feel as though it was his way to make me jealous (which equals love in his eyes). I told him he couldfast dance with her if she did ask and I appeared happy all night although it was eating away at me. I was quieter than normal, but I didn't let on that I was very insecure.

<p>I'm trying very hard not to react to anything as I feel this is exactly what he wants, but it's very hard. My obsessive thoughts are that he flirted with her in the limo and quite possibly exchanged phone numbers. I feel as though that really isn't the case just in his head maybe, but I'm a bit shaken emotionally. I never saw them exchange as much as a hello during the rehearsal/dinner or the ceremony/reception. I think it's a fantasy he concocted in his head.<p>I haven't talked about Plan B earlier than when his apartment is ready - really haven't had the time, but intimated that I do still need Plan B as planned. I need some time to breathe, recover, refocus and regenerate. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Thanks for reading my rambling thoughts!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]<p>[ March 03, 2002: Message edited by: Free2BMe ]</p>

FREE.........Get his BUT outta there!

[img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Talk to me, Free.

Good morning, Oneday!<p>It took me a good 24 hours to shake my insecure feelings brought on by the wedding's events. I know I need to Plan B and work on my own stuff.<p>I'm really getting into the Boundaries book and it's eye opening.<p>What exactly do you think about my post about the wedding?<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm just sad it's coming to this!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Free2BMe:
<strong>Two pieces of information made me uneasy and unable to fully enjoy the evening:</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Sorry to be blunt, but I don't think you will fully enjoy any evenings with your H at this stage. How can you, with all the cr*p you are still dealing with?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I was going to wait and see how the day went and whether he came home late or not, but I just said over coffee that I didn't know if he was just too nervous to tell me or if she was a last minute addition, but I knew she was going to be there. H said he didn't know how to tell me. I'm very nervous today, but I think I handled it fine.<hr></blockquote><p>More of your H not taking responsibility. Ugh. Of course he should have told you. "I didn't know how to tell you" is about as lame an excuse as it gets. He simply does not make any effort to take responsibility for his past mess ups, and he does not practice openness. This one would have been pretty easy, it seems to me. What about simply saying "Free, this is not good news for either of us, but I thought you should know that OW is going to be at the wedding. I wanted you to know so that you would not be taken by surprise." Sheesh, it does not take a Rhode Scholar to figure this out.<p>Sorry to be rough on your H, but come on. He's not even trying, not even a little!<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The other thing that really unnerved me was that although my H was extremely attentive to me the whole night (kissing me and dancing all night), he told me at one point that the maid of honor told him she wanted to dance with him. He told me he would fast dance with her if she did ask, but not slow dance... I never saw them exchange as much as a hello during the rehearsal/dinner or the ceremony/reception. I think it's a fantasy he concocted in his head.<hr></blockquote><p>Whatever this 'thing' was, real or imaginary, it is clear that his telling you was to achieve his usual goal - playing with your head. Again, sorry to be blunt, but can I come over with a 2x4 and silence this man for you? If it was real, he should simply have told you and said he would have nothing more to do with her. If is was concocted, well then he is a liar on top of being manipulative.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I haven't talked about Plan B earlier than when his apartment is ready - really haven't had the time, but intimated that I do still need Plan B as planned.<hr></blockquote><p>It is time to stop intimating and start being direct. If you have decided on plan B, then put your plan B face on and go to it. If you have not decided on plan B, then decide already and either plan A or plan B. Right now, you are in plan nowhere and it is eating you up - AGAIN.<p>Feel free to tell me to jump into a lake. I am so angry at your H for being such a jerk and playing with your head, again. I want to implement plan B for you. If there was only a way to do that...<p>I am sorry if my 'plain talk' is harsh. The harshness is directed at your stupid a** of an H, but the advice really is directed at you.<p>Sending you loads of hugs. Really.<p>OneDay

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by OneDay:
<strong>I want to implement plan B for you. If there was only a way to do that...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well, that would be cool if you could, but then that would mean I wasn't being responsible! I think I need you to whack me with the 2X4. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I will try to talk with him within the next couple of nights! And I'll keep you posted.<p>Thanks for all your thoughts and caring!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Free,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Free2BMe:
<strong>Well, that would be cool if you could, but then that would mean I wasn't being responsible! I think I need you to whack me with the 2X4. [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] </strong><hr></blockquote><p>No. You don't get any 2x4s, just a not-so-subtle reality check from time to time. The 2x4s are reserved for those who repeated hurt the one they are supposed to 'love, honor and cherish'.<p>You, my friend, get hugs, support and a gentle prod back to the 'plan A / plan B' analysis.<p>As for not being responsible, I disagree. If I could do it for you and you could accept, then I think that would be friendship in action - being strong for someone when they are having trouble being strong for themselves.<p>Aren't I about as ornery as they get? I have opinions about everything. Sorry.<p>OneDay

Believe it or not, my friend, I'm learning a lot from the book I'm reading on boundaries. I'm a very passive person, which is not good in God's eyes. I need to work at this and my boundaries will get stronger and more defined.<p>I appreciate your prodding!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]