First I would like to say that I am new to this discussion board, and in fact have never posted anything on the internet before. This site however has been a real godsend to me since I found it several weeks ago.<p> I currently find myself in a very difficult position and would greatly appreciate any advice people have to offer. As a brief introduction, let me provide the following background information about my situation. In August of 2001 I discovered that my H of 14 years (19 together) was having an affair. The A began about a year earlier whn we were in the process of moving. He came down several months ahead of me while I stayed with our 3 children(then 1,3, and 5) to sell our house, etc. We purchased the book Surviving an Affair almost immeadiately and began counseling. From the start I acknowledged my role in creating the condidions that allowed his affair to take place. I also began a truly heart felt Plan A, and learned a tremendous amount about myself and my marriage in the process. The problem of course, is that my H behaved, and continues to behave, precisely like the WS in the book. Over the past six months he has left, or claimed to have left the OW a myriad of times. But she always shows up again. In the process he has lied and manipulated me in ways that I would never have dreamed possible.<p> He moved out of the house into an apartment in January, claiming after a 2 and 1/2 separation from her that he could not make a committment to our marriage. I let him go, and made a rather weak attempt at Plan B. The problem was that almost as soon as he left the house, he was begging to come back home, claiming he made a mistake, he loved me, etc. He then attempted to convince me and the MC that he should move home and continue the "friendship" part of his A so he could "wean" himself from contact with her. When that idea didn't fly he surprised me by actually ending the A in a firey show down with the OW. During this she actually hit and kicked him and attempted to run him over with her car. Keep in mind I am talking about a 40 year old senior exeutive with a mutlimillion $ company (my H that is, not OW). At this point I actually thought the A was finally over, as did the MC and H's own Dr. So I began talking to him about moving home, agreed to go on vacation with him and our kids, and worst of all began seeing him WITH our children, and let him tell the kids he was moving home and, in fact move in.
From the start I had a bad feeling about H's intentions. So, the first morning he was home I looked at the phone log on his cell phone (something he had promised to let me see as a condition of reconciltion). Sure enough there was the OW's home and office #. My H then told me the truth: while he had repeatedly told me that he had not contacted OWin several weeks, the truth was that he had seen her several times and been in contact with her by phone. He then argued that it was all okay because he had told her the very day he moved home that it was, yet again, over and he was moving back.
There are no words to describe my feelings. I am not sure how to proceed from here. Should I simply file for divorce and rid myself of this nightmare once and for all? Are there conditions underwhich we could possibly continue (he claims he has not seen or spoken to OW since he told her he was moving home on Friday)? Should I even give him an option?
I still love him and I know that our children still need him very much. I hate to have gone through this h*** just to throw in the towel, if there is still a chance for us.
What a mess. Any thoughts those of you who have been there might provide would be welcome.

Please excuse the many typo's in this message as I cannot figure out how to edit it!

stickingw/it,<p>Get advice from MB ... I would always advice that first ... we are here for supports and give our oppinions but it would not match proffesional advice. You have read SAA and that is good. <p>IMVHO, ask H to consel w/ MB. Do ENQ & LBQ and ask him to fill it in.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>From the start I had a bad feeling about H's intentions. So, the first morning he was home I looked at the phone log on his cell phone (something he had promised to let me see as a condition of reconciltion). Sure enough there was the OW's home and office #. My H then told me the truth: while he had repeatedly told me that he had not contacted OWin several weeks, the truth was that he had seen her several times and been in contact with her by phone. He then argued that it was all okay because he had told her the very day he moved home that it was, yet again, over and he was moving back.[quote][qb]
Ask him to end the A properly, by no contact letter. He needs help in withdrawal. Don't let this one spoil it.<p>[quote][qb] There are no words to describe my feelings. I am not sure how to proceed from here. Should I simply file for divorce and rid myself of this nightmare once and for all? Are there conditions underwhich we could possibly continue (he claims he has not seen or spoken to OW since he told her he was moving home on Friday)? Should I even give him an option?</strong><hr></blockquote>
From your description you are not ready for paln B let alone Dv. Take his word and ask him to back it up w/ actions. Ask him to "solve" no contact and prove it to you to protect it. Follow Torizo saga ... you will understand.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Please excuse the many typo's in this message as I cannot figure out how to edit it!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't worry, mine is even worst [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img] ... Hint: third icon with a notepad & pencil is an edit button.<p>God Bless you

Redhat,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my question. Although my first post my not have conveyed it, I am in fact very close to filing for divorce. I just retuned from a visit to our MC (I saw him alone today) and he is very pessimistic about our situation. My H's recent claim to have ended contact with the OW is the latest in a very long string of similar claims. He appears to be sincere in the beginning, but after a few days, or sometimes as long as a week, he contacts her again and begins lying until he is caught, or confesses. This is absolutely exhausting. Our FIRST MC got so frustrated with him that she told me flat out that he was a liar and I should get a divorce. It has taken about 3 months to get the second MC to sing a similar tune. This last episode, which involved our children, was a new low, and that is saying alot.
I have repeatedly asked my H to "end the affair in a way that is acceptable to me" i.e. a no contact letter, but he always refuses. I think he wants to keep his options open with this woman.
Externally, I have been a model plan Aer for the past six months but it has taken an outrageous toll on my love and repsect for him. Today the MC asked me point blank if I thought H could be a reasonable father to our children and a man I could be happy with for the long term. I honestly wasn't sure. I don't know who he has become, but if this is who he is for keeps, I think I am better off without him. My H keeps saying that he is the worst of both people in the SAA book (workaholic AND cheater), but I don't think I am the best of the folks either. By that I mean I am not willing to put my life on hold for another year or two while H finds out if he can make a go of things with OW. I am just so tired. I have told very few people about this siuation because I find it all so humiliating. My family, who once adored my H now all hate him and are of no support since they all want me to leave him -- whether he gives up OW or not!<p> The MC believes that my H doesn't really think I will ever leave him or stop loving him and that as long as he thinks he can have me and the OW he will string us both along. We are seeing the MC together in the morning and I am going to tell him that he either writes the no contact letter and (?) gets a restraining order against the OW immeadiately, or I am moving on with my life.<p> I can't just keep doing the same thing and expecting different results. I am also worried about jeopardizing my financial position in the event of divorce and/or failing to get his consent to relocate with the children outside the state. At the moment he still seems to willing to "buy" his way out of the mess he has created.<p> When I think about all this, I would like to sink into a coma.<p>Thanks for letting me get this out of my system.

stickingw/it,<p>What you are planning to do is "tough love" approach. I am not proponent of it ... you are gambling w/ H and if OW is smarter & ready this time you will have to move on. But in any case, may God opens up H mind and do the right thing.<p>Let us know how your conseling go tomorrow.
RH

Redhat,<p>Again, that you for responding to me. We met with the MC this morning. My H admitted that after talking to me on the phone last night, and assuring me that he had not spoken with the OW since last Friday, he proceeded to go to a bar where she she often hangs out. Of course she was there and he spoke with her. He seems to think that since he did not go home with her this continued contact is okay. Pesonally, I don't care that he hasn't slept with her in 3 weeks. It's his continuing contact with her and lying about it that I can't take. I told him again that I needed him to end ALL contact with her and to write a letter to that effect. At that point the whole conversation deteriorated. He began bringing up strange nit-picky things that had happened AFTER he resumed contact with OW, as some odd post hoc rationalization. I got upset and started crying. The MC announced that H was too angry to give a clear answer about ending contact with OW, so we should wait until our 9:30 appointment tomorrow for him to give an answer. (This is costing a fortune.) <p>I feel like I am caught in a recurring nightmare, repeating the same conversations and events over and over again. Often I think he is trying to get me to leave him so that he can tell himself that it wasn't his decision. For a long time I really didn't want to give him the satisfaction of dumping him myself; I wanted him to have to take responsibilty for ending our marriage and destroying our family. Is there any hope that after 6 and 1/2 months of vacillating back and forth that he will change now? <p> Perhaps, you could explain to me the difference between "tough love" and Plan B. I know on some level I would still like to have my H back and begin to work on our marriage in earnest. But at the moment I feel like my very sanity is at stake. Having glimpsed a world without all this craziness, I can't summon the strength to go back to dealing with my H.

Again thank you so much for responding to me, I don't feel like I have anywhere to turn for support in this.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stickingw/it:
[QB]Redhat,<p> plan B 201 will give you plan B desccriptions and misconceptions. Dr. James C Dobson website is riddled w/ comercialism. You have to read Love must be Tough book.<p>In short ... Tough Love set bounderies in M on Christian based and proceed with separation or Dv until the WS willing to meet, it is all about WS. In Plan B, you withdraw contact to protect you from bankrupting your love for WS beyond repair. IMVHO, some WS needs tough love some don't. The Harley's plan A/B approach is the safest approach and inline with Christian beleive too, in which you have to actually give unconditionally while you are working on plan A.<p>Bounderies in tough love is set by BS. In plan A/B there is no boundry ... it is set by WS [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] The bounderies to rebuild M is joinly set ... POJA after A is dead.<p>You seems exhausted from plan A ... IMO, you should take mini vacation from H, weekend get away and retreat w/ love one but not H. I did that back in Dec, it has helped me a lot to keep going. Also get conseling w/ MB ... ask your H if he is willing to try.

Redhat,

I will take your advice. We had planned a ski vacation with our children for next week, back when I believed he had ended A. Instead of taking the kids myself, I think I will suggest H go with kids and his sister (he could never handle kids alone). Then I can take a long weekend and fly up to see my sisters. I dread telling the kids that I am not going with them, but having my SIL there may be fun for them. Likewise a little emotional distance may help put the situation in perspective for me. I truly am exhausted!<p> Thanks as always.

sticking - I see similarities with your situation to so many others. You do not deserve your plight.<p>First, be aware that somewhere out there is the worst MC. Does yours understand the MB principles?<p>I think you have an excellent chance at recovery, if you live up to your name.<p>But, it won't be easy.<p>Your H is displaying classic WS behavior, albeit a stubborn case, perhaps. Have you considered counseling with one of the Harleys? Give it a shot.<p>Have you made and demonstrated your Plan A improvements? If so, it may be time to turn him loose by taking the tough love approach.<p>Ask him to leave until he gets his head straight.<p>Normally, MR'ers do not suggest that a BS initiate a separation. But it feels to me like this is exactly what he needs.<p>Can you do this?

Worthatry,<p> The Harleys' principles have been very useful. Particularly in the first months after I discovered the A, I focased a LOT of energy showing my H that I understood his needs and was able and willing to meet them. He now admits that prior criticisms of me on those grounds are unfair and that I have made huge steps toward resolving my role in our pre-A marital problems. From the beginning of this mess he has been very willing to allow me to meet his EN, but he is a bottomless pit that can never be filled, and he has made little effort to meet my needs in return.<p> Today at the MC my H admitted that the triangle created by his affair is in part the acting out of his own madonna/whore complex. (This has apparently been the topic of much conversation between H and his Dr.) I am now convinced that the only way that H is going to ever rid himself of this A is to let the OW stand or fall on her own merits. H has continued to see me and USE me as the stable reliable anchor in his life. So long as he gets that from me, H is protected from OW's failings as a immature, volatile and basically selfish person. In any case I have definately hit the wall as far as my own Plan A is concerned. Whether we are able to pull our marriage out of the fire or not, I still have to afford H the respect and generosity he deserves as the father of our children. If I deal with him anymore now I may lose even that.<p> With all that in mind, I told H this morning with the MC, that it is time for us to develop some contingency plans. He is still out of the house and will come get the rest of his stuff while I take the kids away for Easter. I hope this time to stand much firmer in my efforts to avoid any unnecessary contact with H unless and until he truly ends this A for life. He seems bent of a path of self-destruction and the least I can do for myself and our children is get out of the way.<p> My own parents' marriage was plagued by infidelity for its duration. It finally ended in divorce after 22 years. During that time my sisters and I were left to raise ourselves alone because both my parents were too wrapped up in their own issues and misery to provide for us. At the very least I can spare my children that fate. And as fate would have it (!) after my parents divorced my mother believed that she was finally free to pursue the man she believed to be the TRUE love of her life. Can you guess what happened? In the harsh light of the real world the OM failed miserably. He was really only interested in my mother while she made no actual demands on him and did not require a committment from him. After an affair of more than 14 years, their realtionship died its own death within 1 year of my parents divorce! As a happy MB ending to this story, my parents re-married 7 years after their divorce (in the mean time my father remarried and divorced his 2nd wife) and my parents have been happily reunited for almost 9 years!<p> It is very creepy to see my own life following so similar a path. I only hope it has a similar happy ending.