I found out that my husband was having an affair on Valentine's Day of this year. (Ironic, no.)I confronted him. We talked about it over the next couple of days and he said that he would end the affair the next day.<p>I found out approximately 2 weeks later that he had lied; he did not end the affair but merely told the other woman that his wife knew. They saw each other and had sex twice after Valentine's Day. I again confronted him when I discovered that he had lied. He again claimed that they agreed not to see each other anymore.<p>After this, he agreed to go to counseling with me. He and I have attended 3 sessions together so far. The counselor suggested that if he ever was going to get together with the OW again, he should discuss it with me.<p>Well, yesterday he came to me and told me that he had been asked to go golfing with a group of 4 people, one of which would be the OW, in a couple of days. I told him that I didn't want him to go and he said that he did. We talked about it and he admitted that he had been talking with her on the phone and via email for several weeks now. I told him that I will not live in a marriage where one partner is having an affair. I told him that if he goes on this outing, that I will take that as a sign that he does not want to work on our marriage. <p>At one point in the conversation, he said that he would file for divorce because he didn't think that he wanted to be married anymore. I replied that that's a decision that he has to make. He then said that he would file and I agreed. We starting talking about dividing up our property and all of a sudden he said that he didn't know what he wanted to do. I asked him what he meant and he said "about everything". I asked, you mean about keeping in contact with the OW? Not contacting the OW? He responded yes.<p>Based on this conversation, I assume that he is thinking about what he wants to do 'about everything' over the next couple of days.<p>Please give me some advise. Did I do the right thing? I've read about plan A/plan B but Plan A doesn't appear to have worked because he's lied twice now about ending the affair. Plan B doesn't seem like a workable option because I would feel like a fool moving out while he gets to continue his affair.<p>I understand that this is a long email and I appreciate your patience in reading through it.
Thanks.

greatentertainer,<p>Never moves out ... regardless if you have kid or not. H is the one who have A and let be him to move out. You are lucky that H doesn't have any plan at all. He has a second tought. What you just did is "tough love" approach.<p>You misunderstood plan A. Plan A is not to get your H back or it is not the primary objective. The primary objective is to show changes within you on all the habits/behaviors that cause this environment of A possible. If you want to do plan A, think hard all H's complaints about you in M. List them all and do your best to fix them.<p>Good luck -RH-

Does Plan A require that I stay and show him that I'm working on the changes I need to make (which I am)if he goes on the golf outing and sees this OW. He did come to me and tell me that he was going as well as that the OW would be there. I told him that it was his decision but that I won't be married to a man who has such apparant disregard for my feelings. He claims that he can have a "friendly relationship" with this OW and I say no, you can't. So I've let him know that I disapprove of them having any contact but apparently he still is considering going anyway.<p>So if I decide to stay if he goes on the golf outing, how long should I implement Plan A? It's been since February 14, 2002 that I first confronted him. <p>Next, I read The SKM Chronicles and found it very helpful. I am considering showing it to him but am afraid he would see it as attempting to 'control him' which is one problem he felt led to him having an affair. I have admitted this and am working on not being so controlling. (Such as before would have been hysterical at mere mention of golf outing with OW. Instead, I have told him my thoughts, feelings and boundaries and that he is free to make his own decision.

greatentertainer,<p>Plan A'ng has nothing to do with him going golfing or not. It is about you making the changes. Yes, you have to work on staying since you need to show him that you are not controling (plan A list of actions). You did good by not LB but express you disaproval and your feeling and it is up to him to trespass it. You choose to stay not because you are doormat but because you want to work on M.<p>How long will you be in plan A ? ... Either A dies of natural death means that you won or you have to move on plan B to protect whatever love bank left for your H. Depends on you. If you have done great plan A and no changes or visible changes on H's attitude ... you have to get a second opinions to end it or drastic measure. The whole plan is based on letting the A dies on its own and while waiting BS tries to work on themself.<p>Get to know OW, what she likes what do you think your H likes in her ?. The more info you have the better. OW might married to someone. Know thy enemies so that you could plan better battle.<p>Good luck -RH-

Check out Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.) and Plan B - 101 (2nd ed.) and Plan B - 201.<p>Learn Plan A and do it with the (forethought)possibility of having to go to Plan B.<p>About learning what the OW does...
...focus a bit more on what you have/can do for your H...
(Sometimes knowing what the OW does... and imitating helps... but only if its really you too!)<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

I have re-read the Plan A/Plan B article and have questions. <p>Is Plan A supposed to be about negotiating with the WS to break contact with the OW? That's what article says. I feel like I've been trying to do that.<p>For example, last night my WS and I talked about the golf outing with the OW I mentioned in my earlier posting. He said he felt bad all day about what he was doing to me. However, he said that he is going to go. <p>Our discussion started out well. I was listening to him, not judging or critizing, but eventually he said that the OW, in a recent conversation, offered to "back off" and not see him. WS replied, I don't think that will help. This admission, that OW offered to leave, and he refused, devestated me and made me feel like a "fool".<p>He's stated (and said again last night) that he doesn't know if he wants to work things out with me and that he feels like the A "ruined things beyond repair". He admits that something is holding him back from filing for divorce now (which is the same situation I'm in). He acknowledged that what he's doing is hurting me immensely and that makes him feel bad. (But apparently not too bad, or he wouldn't do it, right?)<p>He also stated he was "not going to have sex with her at the golf outing. It's just 9 holes of golf and dinner with 2 other people" (whom he "guarantees" doesn't know that he and OW had(?) an affair. He told me where they were golfing and eating dinner and what time he would be home. He stated that me trying to talk him out of going golfing just felt like more of my "controlling", which is something he said led him to have the A and I believe that I need to change. He acknowledged that he has seen that I have been trying to work on this since we discussed it.<p>He told me that he wants to maintain friendly, casual contact with the OW and that this just needs "to run its course". He stated that if he ever wanted to or had sex with OW again, he would come to me and ask for a divorce because he doesn't want to have an affair again. When I asked him if he was sincere about this (sex with OW would equal divorce), he said yes. This statement actually comforted me. (Is this weird? Was my reaction appropriate?)<p>We talked for over 3 hours until he finally got really angry and said that he needed to sleep.<p>This morning, I approached him and he apologized for getting angry. I told him that I was afraid that our conversation last night might have made things worse between us and when he goes on the outing he would have fun and end up thinking that his wife was a pathetic loser. He responded that last night is just a part of what we're going through.<p>I also told him this morning that my anxieties were at an all time high. I know that the "right" reaction would be to let it go, that he made his decision to go on this outing, so that's what I have to accept. But I'm finding this extremely difficult, to say the least. What can I do to accept this? Detach emotionally? What can I do to take better care of myself? (Has anyone else experienced a similar situation? What did you do that helped you cope?)<p>When he left this morning, he looked awful (tired and miserable) and said that he would talk to me today. I gave him the article "SKR Chronicles", about the WS who had an affair and how long it took her to get over it and return to her husband. He agreed that he would read it.<p>What should I do under Plan A now? Continue to negotiate with him? Not negotiate and wait for him to come to me? <p>Additionally, WS and I have a weekend trip that was planned awhile ago. Should we go? Both of us have admitted that we really don't want to.
Please advise.

greatentertainer,
Do not take what he said personally, it cames out from his fog as you figure it out ... it doesn't make sense. It is an excuse to keep holding on A. Focus on what you could do, show him that you could change and fix your part. Meanwhile treat H like an insane person that you loved tremendously. All action in the past, present and even future it is not attributed to him. H is not himself right now. His selfishness clouded his judgement. You are doing great on keeping the communication open.<p>You negotiate by showing that you could compete w/ OW, it doesn't mean literally "negotiate". You tell your boundry and let him make his decision and focus on you and how you could show to him you could change.<p>Also let him know that a lot of people travel this path and recover the M and have better M than before A. Let him know if he want to conseling w/ MB. If he is interested get him SAA book to read.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Additionally, WS and I have a weekend trip that was planned awhile ago. Should we go? Both of us have admitted that we really don't want to.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Do not cancel it. Go for it, do your best to have fun, just pure fun for each other and told him that no R talk, no A talk. Right now you are competing w/ OW on time spend together, fun together and probably even SF.<p>Good luck and keep us updated -RH-

Well, Redhat, I took your advice and last night I went home and was pleasant and conversational. (No Love Busters) At one point, I put my hand out, he took it and I squeezed his hand. He said, what's wrong with you tonight? I said, I just decided that I don't want to fight with you anymore. We've both said all I think we need to say and I just want to have a pleasant evening. He replied, Ok. I came home prepared to fight with you but instead it has been a nice evening. <p>The golf outing was not discussed.<p>Today he called me at work and left a voicemail message that he was trying to "touch base" with me and that he was leaving work at 12:15pm. (Meaning, of course, that he was going golfing.) <p>At work today, I had some meetings to attend and didn't have time to call him back so I have not talked to him today.<p>Tonight when WS comes home from the outing, I plan (and I'll give it my damnedest...) to continue to be pleasant and conversational. That's what I should do under Plan A, right? <p>Obviously, I've had a very bad day. My emotions are wild. I cannot accept the fact that he is going when he knows how much this hurts me. (His behavior is most definitely a Lover Buster, no?) After my meetings, I left work and came home because I couldn't focus.(I made a massage appointment in about 2 hours. I think that'll help me to feel a little better.) <p>Today I called a divorce attorney and made an appointment on a date that's about 3 weeks from now. I'm afraid, however, that this is merely a reaction to his going on the golf outing. <p>Should I have to have more faith and patience with the application of Plan A? I'm doing Plan A for myself, right? Not for him? <p>But how do I get the pain I feel about his going to stop?<p>As far as finding out about OW. WS has told me that he likes her because she is a "strong and independent woman". (Of course, I said how strong and independent could she be if she's married and having an affair?) Also, when he admitted that they were back in contact and that she had initiated the contact, I asked him what about strong and independent? And WS merely shrugged...<p>What else should I find out? I'm not going to ask WS to describe what he likes about OW. (I could most definitely NOT follow Plan A while hearing that.) Is this question merely a way to find out what emotional needs OW meets? I could ask WS (again) what his EN are. That question I could handle under Plan A.<p>Please advise. Thanks.<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]<p>[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]</p>

greatentertainer,<p>You are doing good. Also ADD medications might help you, it certainly helps me a lot, see your doctor. I am on paxil the day she filed ... what a coincident. My Lord knew better and sent me to see my doctor.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Tonight when WS comes home from the outing, I plan (and I'll give it my damnedest...) to continue to be pleasant and conversational. That's what I should do under Plan A, right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeap, no LB , no R talk unless he initiate it.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Today I called a divorce attorney and made an appointment on a date that's about 3 weeks from now. I'm afraid, however, that this is merely a reaction to his going on the golf outing. <p>Should I have to have more faith and patience with the application of Plan A? I'm doing Plan A for myself, right? Not for him? </strong><hr></blockquote>
You did the right thing to see your lawyer, not to file but to seek legal advice. Knowing your right is very important. Yes, plan A is all about you.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>But how do I get the pain I feel about his going to stop?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Time will heal it if you allow it. Also get busy to take your mind out from all of this. Going to the gymn and pushing my body works wonder on me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>What else should I find out? I'm not going to ask WS to describe what he likes about OW. (I could most definitely NOT follow Plan A while hearing that.) Is this question merely a way to find out what emotional needs OW meets? I could ask WS (again) what his EN are. That question I could handle under Plan A.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No you don't ask your H, if you have your freinds that know OW that is a start. Do you know her name or address or phone# ? You could check her background ... who knows if OW has criminal history or still married. You need to know as much as you can about OW for H & your own good. It is to see also how much their A will fall into 5% success rate into M.<p>For your plan A, make a list of complaint that H has on you in M. Do your best to fix it up. For your H' EN ... print out ENQ also actually LBQ too, fill in for your husband, guess it. You only need the top 5 and the order is not important. You have try to fill in if H allows it.<p>Good luck for tonight.

All that Redhat has said is correct... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>...but continue to be honest with your H...<p>...he needs to hear that... if the relationship continues... you will... over time... lose the love you have for him...<p>...if he doesn't make the decision to end the relationhip...
...your lost love... will result in separartion or divorce.<p>Yes...
...you have to be loving in saying this!<p>Like a loving parent to his/her children...
...by making sure they are reminded of right and wrong...
...and the consequences that follow each...
...that kind of love... is not a love buster... because it is in truth and honesty.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

Redhat and others who have replied, thanks. Writing these postings and reading your replies has already been very helpful for me.<p>You stated,
No you don't ask your H, if you have your freinds that know OW that is a start. Do you know her name or address or phone# ? You could check her background ... who knows if OW has criminal history or still married. You need to know as much as you can about OW for H & your own good. It is to see also how much their A will fall into 5% success rate into M.<p>I know a little about OW: she's 56 years old (WS is 35 years old)and lives about 10 or 15 miles from our house. She is married and has at least one grown child.<p>I have a friend who worked with OW around 12 years ago. (She hasn't seen her since then.) I asked my friend about OW and she said it would be better for me if she didn't tell me. I trusted her. My friend did say that she has a suspicion that OW has a pattern of affairs with younger men because OW was apparently bothering a young male coworker when they worked together 12 year ago. (Even WS has his own suspicions that OW hasn't had past affairs. When he and I were talking once, he stated that OW told him that this was her first affair but that he didn't know.)<p>Should I ask my friend again to tell me more about OW? I was afraid it would really hurt to hear the answers so I trusted her when she refused the first time I asked.<p>Comparatively, she's old; I'm not (I'm 37). (I feel that for a 35 year old married man to be involved with a 56 year old woman is unbelievable. The OW is closer to his mom in age (mom's 63) than me (I'm 37). <p>WS wants a family; OW certainly wonn't give him one. Her child is grown.<p>She's married. Consequently, for them to have more than an A, she would have to leave her husband and get a divorce.<p>Based on the above information, there doesn't seem to be much of a future for them beyond the A, does there? From the other information WS has told me (yes, I know that his credibility is zero right now, however), the A is a "loose arrangement". They talk once or twice a week at work via telephone or email. They cannot call each other at home. Everytime they're "together" (I understood this to mean having sex), WS said they understood it could be the last time...<p>It appears that OW is free on Saturday afternoons because that's when they would go to hotels and have sex. WS changed his schedule (which used to be going to gym with me) so that he could do this. (His schedule change was one of my first clues to the A.)<p>Overall, I think that OW appears to say "jump" and WS says "how high"...(Why doesn't he do this for me?)<p>That's all I know about OW. Please advise. Thanks.

greatentertainer,
What a joke ... as you see knowing OW you know that their A has no chance into M. 56 year horny wife [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] . You know you could compete w/ OW ... As Jim/NSR says you need to let your H know about your feeling, not begging or demanding or threatening but kind of FYI. Talk fogeese back to them ... what if H is in your shoes ?. Go and treat yourself nice ... fix your hair up, get your nail done, get a new dress, get a new parfume ... show changes in your outlook ... think of it you need to show changes for a new date. Mind your own business and get busy.<p>Do you have anyway of notifying her husband ?. You have to bring A to daylight.<p>The most important thing is do the action list for your plan A. Set time frame how long is acceptable for you (don't tell him) and keep a good journal so that you could look back and keep your progress.<p>Keep your travel plan, it is a big chance for you to show changes.<p>Good luck & keep us updated -RH-

Redhat, thanks for your reply. <p>I'm not going to notify OW's husband. I don't think that it would end the A, it might actually drive WS and OW together. My friend that used to know the OW at a former job, seems to think that this may be a pattern for the OW. Maybe her husband knows (or suspects) and has been willing to look the other way for many years.<p>This morning, WS and I discussed our LB questionnaires. A couple of surprises for me. His number one LB was "selfish demands". WS admitted that part of the reason he went on the outing was to "show me that I can't tell him what to do".<p>He also admitted that he went because he wanted to go. He said that he's emotionally involved with OW and he never expected to be and doesn't know what to do about it. He's confused.
I told him that it hurt me to think that he was in love with someone else. He didn't respond. I asked if that was a fair statement, that he had said that his feelings are "more than friendship". He agreed that they were "more than friendship" but he didn't go so far as to say he loved her. I said that he had indicated after the outing that his feelings are not what they were a couple of months ago and that they were moving more towards friendship. He agreed.<p>At this point, I didn't say anything [though I wanted to] about breaking contact helping to clear his confusion because he would only disagree and feel like it was another "selfish demand". He knows my feelings and position on that issue.<p>I did tell WS that unless he gives up these feelings for OW, and decides to stay married to me, our marriage is in limbo. He agreed.
I stated that you don't have a future together. She won't give you a family (WS agreed). I stated that unless she left her husband, you have no future. He replied that right after I found out and he attempted to break off contact, she offered to leave her husband. WS said that he was surprised but WS believes that this was just a "knee jerk reaction" to the situtation. She hasn't offered that again and he has not brought it up. I asked WS if he ever offered to leave me. He said no.<p>I would say that the next appropriate step for me would be not bring this subject up again with WS. He has told me that he hates these "discussions" and they don't help him make up his mind. However, I initiate these discussions because they help me to put my thoughts in order and I've told him this. So he talks to me when I initiate it and for as long as I want to. But under Plan A, I should just "back off" and leave him alone, right?<p>However, I'm anxious that he will never make up his mind because he doesn't seem to be taking any steps to clear the confusion. He stated that maybe a session alone with the marriage counselor would help him, but when I said he should ask her for one, he backed off and said that the counselor should decide if he needs to go alone! I replied that if you indicated that you wanted to talk with her alone, she would agree to do it. He said, ok maybe. (This refusal to ask the counselor for some sessions alone must be more "fog talk", right?)<p>He stated that he will work this out in his "own way" and that we have different ways of working things out. I said, what do you think will help you work this out then? He said, time...<p>At one point during our conversation, I said that I'm a great person and that sometimes I feel that he's a total idiot to throw our marriage away. He agreed! He admitted that he loved me but when I asked him if he wanted to stay married to me, he said that he didn't know. I asked him why he felt that way and all his answers dealt with the problems that lead him to the A. I stated that I'm working on those issues. He agreed. But he still doesn't know...<p>As far as focusing on myself, I've embarked on a self improvement program. I'm taking a dance class (belly dancing, sexy and exotic, no?). I'm reading a lot of self help/self improvement books to become a better person and I've lost 20 pounds!! <p>WS has noticed that I'm doing these things and at one point he told me, with a look of concern on his face, that I might might work out all of my issues and and dump him anyway. I said, yes that's a real possibility. (That's something for WS to think about, no?)<p>Please advise. <p>P.S. Today for the first time, I bought up OW's age with WS. When I said, she's in her 50's, WS said no, she's only 49. Redhat, I know for a fact she's 56 so she's lying to WS about her age!! I didn't challenge WS on this though, because I found out her real age through my job and if it came out, I might lose my job.

greatentertainer,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I'm not going to notify OW's husband. I don't think that it would end the A, it might actually drive WS and OW together. My friend that used to know the OW at a former job, seems to think that this may be a pattern for the OW. Maybe her husband knows (or suspects) and has been willing to look the other way for many years.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Whatever fit in your situation. It is sad that may spouses willing to look the other way for whatever reasons as a doormat for life. We, BS, doing it just to give a chance for A to die and work on M w/ a specify time frame. Pain is given but misery is optional.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I would say that the next appropriate step for me would be not bring this subject up again with WS. He has told me that he hates these "discussions" and they don't help him make up his mind. However, I initiate these discussions because they help me to put my thoughts in order and I've told him this. So he talks to me when I initiate it and for as long as I want to. But under Plan A, I should just "back off" and leave him alone, right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, you should stop it since you have enough information at hand. Don't beat the dead horse.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>However, I'm anxious that he will never make up his mind because he doesn't seem to be taking any steps to clear the confusion. He stated that maybe a session alone with the marriage counselor would help him, but when I said he should ask her for one, he backed off and said that the counselor should decide if he needs to go alone! I replied that if you indicated that you wanted to talk with her alone, she would agree to do it. He said, ok maybe. (This refusal to ask the counselor for some sessions alone must be more "fog talk", right?)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Patience, time and consistency ... leave him alone. Usually MC will see each of you alone first then will bring you together after she/he gets all information. Make sure that MC is using MB !. Otherwise it could do more harm than good to your M. They tend to treat the fog rather than treat the source of the fog which is selfishness of A.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>As far as focusing on myself, I've embarked on a self improvement program. I'm taking a dance class (belly dancing, sexy and exotic, no?). I'm reading a lot of self help/self improvement books to become a better person and I've lost 20 pounds!! </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeap ... most of martians top EN is SF. Keep hitting your list of actions.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>WS has noticed that I'm doing these things and at one point he told me, with a look of concern on his face, that I might might work out all of my issues and and dump him anyway. I said, yes that's a real possibility. (That's something for WS to think about, no?)</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are doing good, you are working on being equal partner in this M. Find values in yourself, keep maturing as a person and let him know there is no rain check for him.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>P.S. Today for the first time, I bought up OW's age with WS. When I said, she's in her 50's, WS said no, she's only 49. Redhat, I know for a fact she's 56 so she's lying to WS about her age!! I didn't challenge WS on this though, because I found out her real age through my job and if it came out, I might lose my job.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Smart. All info from snooping is used only to measure your progress and to see how much of a fantasy in their A. I am exchanging information with OMW about their activities and helping OMW to plan A'ng her H.<p>Be patience, reduce down R talk !!!. Concentrate on having fun and enjoy time together with H. Change your dresses, changes it 10 years younger type. Change your hair and try new stuff ... let H notice you and stop talking about A or R. Plan to go out with your girlfreinds and dress well for it ... enjoy it. You need a break from all of this and you need to let H thinks what he is going to miss. Give a treat to your self for good progress on plan A. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Good progress, keep it heart to heart talk but not about A or R. Make it safe for him to let his feeling of thought out. About current even or about his childhood. As martian, we need to be train to pour our feeling out. When he is honest about his feeling, give him a bit reward, something that he likes and show your appreciation. -RH-

Amen, Plan A! <p>This morning WS came to me, took both my hands, and said the following:
he was sorry about the past few months,
he thanked me for trying to work to save our marriage,
he would break off contact with the OW and if she contacted him, he would tell her that he didn't want any contact between them because he was trying to work it out with his wife. Also, he would tell me when she contacted him and his response (if any).<p>I was speechless!!<p>He said if I'd like to talk about his reasons, we could do it later tonight because he had to leave for work.<p>Thanks to Plan A, WS has taken his first step towards reconciling with me. WS and I are not out of the woods yet (I have to see if he follows through on his promises and I still have to work hard to make certain changes in myself) but, as my recent prior postings state, I was beginning to doubt if Plan A was working. To anyone who is doubting like I did, or feels like it's never going to work, I say, don't give up!!<p>Thank you Redhat and others for your support. It meant a lot to me. If anything further happens, I will keep you posted.<p>[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]</p>

Well, today WS had a golf outing planned that did not include the OW but included some people that they used to work with. Because the OW was not supposed to be there, I told him that I didn't care if he went golfing with these other former coworkers.<p>Today it rained most of the day. WS, however, still left work early to go "golfing". My initution told me that something was wrong. <p>When he came home, I asked him what he did tonight. He first said they golfed and then went to one of the former coworker's homes for a cookout. I asked if the OW was there. He said no.<p>I pressed him by asking him several times to tell me the truth and he repeated the same story. Finally, he confessed that he didn't golf but went to the cookout only and that the OW showed up. He said that he didn't know that she was going to be there because she wasn't supposed to golf. <p>So, again, he's lied to me about her. When I asked him why, he said because he didn't want me to "judge" him for seeing her.<p>Then he said do you want me to be honest about when I see her? I said I thought that you had already agreed to do that. And you weren't.<p>He insists that he can see her in group situations and he won't sleep with her. To WS, that's what an affair is, you just don't sleep with someone.<p>WS says that he wants to spend the rest of his life with me and have a family. He says that he loves me. But he doesn't want to stop seeing OW in these group situations. He said that if I can't live with that, then I should get a divorce but that he doesn't want one.<p>When asked, WS admitted that he and the OW had previously said that they loved each other, talked about leaving their spouses and adopting a child together. When WS discovered that OW lied to him about her age, he decided that was not possible because she's was too old. (She's 56.)<p>I told WS that until he stops seeing her that I feel like we're just roommates and our marriage is in limbo.<p>I don't know what to do now. Should I go back to Plan A? Please advise.<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]</p>

Yes, you have to be in plan A at this point. You are still asking [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ... , seriously, you move to plan B when WS rejected your plan A or you start loosing it .Read Forgiver's thread ... , specially at the end. You have to learn how to set the boundry and stick with it. You did good by telling him that continues contact will drain your love & M ... and no LB'ed. Let him make the decision. Distance a bit and let H makes the move.<p>Did I miss a psoting on your weekend trip ?. did you cancel it ?.<p>Now you know that his A is full of holes, you could relax a bit. Be patience and presistant and give it time. You did about 3 mo. worth of plan A, actually little less than that ... H already waffle, in and out of the fog. Now what typical WS do is trying to move the boundry so that WS could be a cakeman. Don't disrespect yourself ... nothing in the world worth loosing yourself !. <p>H is like a kid afraid of loosing his candy, he is bargaining w/ you. Don't entertain it. W/ no LB states your boundry, be firm but loving ... <p>Now check his EN's list and also go back and check your plan A list of actions. -RH-

Thanks for your reponse, Redhat.<p>WS and I didn't take that weekend trip because the weather where we were supposed to go that weekend was awful. (A lot of snow fell.) We're planning on going later in the summer when it'll be nicer.<p>I'm not clear on one point. Are you suggesting that I should be in Plan B now? Or should I continue with Plan A? Is three months too short a time for Plan A? The articles on this website state that 6 months is average. That would mean that I'm only halfway through.<p>I do understand that I'm supposed to not allow him to negotiate with me about contact with OW. I tell him I would think that there should be no golfing and no contact between them. I think I've done that so far.<p>(By the way, last night he also told me that he's golfing with OW on a couple of weeks and if I don't like it, I can "get a divorce".) <p>After I wrote my posting last night, I went back to bed. I accidently brushed up against my husband. He was awake and reached over and took my hand! I asked him, why didn't you just tell me that the OW was at the cookout when you came home? He said, I'm sorry. I should have told you. Then I feel asleep.<p>When we woke up this morning, he looked at me, I looked at him and he reached over and put his arm around me! <p>At times like this, I think that "fog" might be breaking but when things like last night happen and I realize he's still in it. Is this conflicting behavior typical? <p>He also said that he's going to see our counselor alone at our next scheduled appointment in a couple of weeks. This is a change from his earlier position of, if the counselor thinks I should some alone, then I will. I think that this is appropriate at this stage and told him so.<p>Please advise. Thanks.<p>P.S. Talk about "holes" in the A. WS told me that at the cookout there was another male coworker in his 30's and OW was flirting with him!! He said, maybe OW's already on to her next one (meaning A).<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]</p>

greatentertainer,<p>Your H still allows you to fillin some EN and has not reject your plan A ... therefore you should stay in plan A. I know how hard it is but M requires work specially when it is wounded by A. 6 months average is just a guideline since most A dies within 6 months and also within 6 months we we make plan A actions sticks as habit.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I do understand that I'm supposed to not allow him to negotiate with me about contact with OW. I tell him I would think that there should be no golfing and no contact between them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, you have to set the boundry ... no, you don't demand H that is an LB'ed. You let him know that you feel uncomfortable with actions and you feels that it is bad for your M and you might lost your love for him. Learn how to express your boundry w/o demand.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>By the way, last night he also told me that he's golfing with OW on a couple of weeks and if I don't like it, I can "get a divorce". WS said that he doesn't want one, though.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Reverse the logic and start talking fogese back to H ... what if you go out to movies w/ a guy or a group of mens how does H feels about it ? If H say go ahead, you tell H what if after movie you can't resist the guy and something happens, is that ok ?. ... you get what I mean. Also start talking to lawyer, not to file but to consult !. To learn and get prepared ... second, to call H's bluff. Go and see lawyer, do not tell him why but make sure he is aware that you are going to see one. Most lawyer will give you free advice, non legally binding until you hire them ... interview them you might need it later. Pull a candy from an 8 years old boy, you will have the same result ... mad, negotiate, but if you are firm they will shut up.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>At times like this, I think that "fog" might be breaking but when things like last night happen and I realize he's still in it. Is his behavior typical? </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is the 'coaster that we are talking about, drives us nuts. :mad<p>Please get an MB conselor ... I am still waiting to hear about Forgiver's MC that tell her H to cut the ties as soon as possible if H is out of love.<p>Crank up your plan A, check what you missed in his complaint and also ask him if he see the changes in you.<p>-RH-

Redhat, I've already said to WS, how would you feel if I were to see other men? <p>He had a hurt look on his face but replied that he wouldn't like it but that he couldn't stop me. I told him that's how I feel when he sees OW.<p>I brought it up again last night and he said, I wish you would because then we'd be "even".
I asked, what would you do then? Start back up with OW? He said yea, probably. I said, you do want an open marriage? (Having no intention of giving it to him, of course.) He actually looked like he considered it!!<p>Sometimes I believe that nothing I say or do could really hurt WS that he's so emotionally removed from me. I would think that if your wife was talking about seeing other men, it would be terrible. But after that first time and the hurt look, he seems to "take it in stride". I don't think bringing that up anymore would help him see my point of view.<p>Tomorrow I'm supposed to go out with some friends. I feel like not going because I have this feeling that WS and OW are going to be together while I'm away. (This had been their usual pattern before.) I told WS on the phone today that I don't think I'm going to go because it's an outdoor activity and the weather isn't supposed to be good. He said ok. I said, you didn't have any plans anyway, right? He said no.<p>WS called me at work today and we had a nice conversation. He asked my advice about a business matter (we're in the same field but work at different places) and I gave it to him.<p>Then I asked him for his voicemail passcode and he readily gave it to me. I told him that it probably doesn't matter because he will warn OW not to leave a message. He said we never talked much on the phone anyway. I said, when was the last time you talked with her on the phone? He said weeks ago. I said, are you sure? He said yes. (I don't believe him but I didn't tell him that.)<p>I just have this feeling that WS is seeing OW (much less often) and he's become better at hiding it. I think he saw her two Saturdays ago (when I was out with my mom) and I think he's planning on seeing her tomorrow when I'm supposed to be gone. Should I tell him this? (Without LBing of course.)<p>[ May 17, 2002: Message edited by: greatentertainer ]</p>