I'm glad that my advice for TheLion helped you too Tofu. And yes I am very aware of your situation since I have contributed a few posts to your thread at the pregnancy/other child bb. In fact in your situation I would strongly consider whether you should stay married if your WW is hellbent on having OM as part of the child's life because his presence will be a sabotaging force for your marital recovery. Divorcing your WW does not mean you will abandon her or stop having a relationship with her, but it will help you detach emotionally from the situation somewhat while limiting the financial impact which at this moment you do not seem to be very appreciative of. It may also be a wake up call to your WW if she knows that you are divorcing her because she will know that she will not have any emotional,moral or legal claim to you.

LIsten to your rational side. Feelings change from one day to another and are not a reliable indicator as can be seen from your wife's actions. Look at your wife's actions not what you wish for.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tomaz:
<strong>LIsten to your rational side. Feelings change from one day to another and are not a reliable indicator as can be seen from your wife's actions. Look at your wife's actions not what you wish for.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>But sometimes the rational side can get seduced or corrupted by the emotional urgency for a speedy resolution that in the long run may not be in our best emotional and rational best interests.

Hi TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I have come to a conclusion that rational mind is the way to go because of the following reasons.<p>I understand and can relate to your example, in that case I myself have to make a determination again with (the rational mind) and I would not accept my W back after one year because I am committed to the other women, I cannot make her the new women suffer the pain and agony I have suffered <p>(I cannot even think of putting some one thru this pain not even one of my worst enemies)<p>This is in my opinion worst than DEATH itself. I am tired and sick of it.<p>Also, dont you think the WW has made her decisions based on emotions and not rationalization that is the reason we all are in this mess. <p>Wouldn't I be making the same mistake if I go with my emotions and wait (1 year) or forever, and had to go thru this all over again..<p>To me at this point rational decision seems right but maybe you can explain to me in a better way or with some advise, I know and I am suppressing my emotions to make the right decision, to be honest I am 33 year old Man but still I cry like a baby and cannot stop crying but this is something I have to overcome to make the correct decision.<p>Please help me decide ?
TheLion

Hi TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>This is my problem, WW has conversation as her 1st EN the reason we do not connect is I am very honest person and believe in TRUTH however, she says some things and certain time you do not have to tell the truth, I cannot live with that...<p>She is still in FOG, she does not want my parents to know about the A, however, I want to tell them the truth, I think that is the right thing to do..<p>We both have to face the truth, with the world, I will be at peace with myself and with her and I even told her I am willing to accept her the way she is eventhough the world knows about her A.<p>Am I right or wrong ? should I or should'nt I.<p>To me it also sounded like a threat if you tell your parents than it is over otherwise I am still thinking of coming back.<p>By the way you can read my thread at Plan B/Need advise...<p>Please help me sort this out ?<p>thanks! thelion!

Ok Lion I'd like to propose a little experiment to you. Since you will go with your rational side on this one, tomorrow I want you to contact a divorce attorney and start the divorce proceedings to terminate your marriage. Call your WW and tell her to get herself an attorney because you have started the divorce proceedings and there is no changing your mind. Do not accept any of her calls or visits, you are done with her for the rest of your life.<p>Having second thoughts? why? if you follow your rational side then this is the only way for you to go.<p>My point in all this is to show you that you can not shut your emotions or feelings when they are very strong towards her. The only way is for you to lose all love and not care for her anymore. Can you honestly say that you do not care about her anymore? Your posts betray you Lion, you are a very emotional individual because you are a human beign that has been hurt in one of the most painful ways possible. It seems to me that you are using the rational side as an excuse to runaway from your emotional side beign hurt but that's ok because we all have that same tendency of running away from the things that have caused us pain instead of dealing with them and learning from them.<p>Look if you were 100% rational you wouldn't even be here asking for advise because you would have been certain that divorce was the only solution to your problem. So I humbly suggest that you consider suffering a little bit longer so that your love for your WW will be totally purged from your soul and then you will no longer be susceptible to her coming back at a future date to sabotage any future relationship you might develop. Remember the old saying that which does not kill me only makes me stronger. You WILL be stronger if you tough it out a little bit longer.

Thanks TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I agree to fight, well how long ? maybe till the end of the year ? i dont know..<p>Did you read my recent ?
Please tell me what should I do ?<p>Should I tell my parents or not ?<p>TheLION

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Hi TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>This is my problem, WW has conversation as her 1st EN the reason we do not connect is I am very honest person and believe in TRUTH however, she says some things and certain time you do not have to tell the truth, I cannot live with that...<p>She is still in FOG, she does not want my parents to know about the A, however, I want to tell them the truth, I think that is the right thing to do..<p>We both have to face the truth, with the world, I will be at peace with myself and with her and I even told her I am willing to accept her the way she is eventhough the world knows about her A.<p>Am I right or wrong ? should I or should'nt I.<p>To me it also sounded like a threat if you tell your parents than it is over otherwise I am still thinking of coming back.<p>By the way you can read my thread at Plan B/Need advise...<p>Please help me sort this out ?<p>thanks! thelion!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Your WW is definetely deep in the 'fog' when she tells you that she doesn't want you to tell your parents about her A. This would make sense if she ended her A, ended all contact with OM and asked for your forgiveness and comitted herself to counseling and marital recovery. But why should she be rewarded for her A when she is still deep in it? If she contacts you and brings this matter up, just tell her that since the continuation of her A will bring the inevitable divorce, that the truth will come out sooner or later and that they will have to be told, so why not now?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Thanks TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I agree to fight, well how long ? maybe till the end of the year ? i dont know..<p>Did you read my recent ?
Please tell me what should I do ?<p>Should I tell my parents or not ?<p>TheLION</strong><hr></blockquote><p>How long? That can only be answered by you. Every day that passes and she continues in her A is one more day that she withdraws more love units from your love bank and there will come a day when her love account will be empty and at that point you she will have essentially closed her account at TheLion First Trust National Love Bank [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] and at that point you will no longer have anymore love for her that even if she ended her A, ended contact with OM, and promised to be a true wife committed to marital recovery, you will no longer want her back in your life. At this point you WILL be ready for divorce and moving on with your life.<p>I would tell your parents but only after you talk to her and tell her that her continuation of her A will inevitably lead to divorce, and that they will find out the truth sooner or later, so why not now since there doesn't seem to be the slightest probability that she will end her A, end her contact with OM and committ to marital recovery.

I agree with you TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I have tried to tell her the same thing but when WW are in FOG nothing gets thru to them.<p>I have made a decision to tell my parents and the whole world that my W had an A..<p>Even after this she is more than welcome to come back and work on the M, I dont care what the world things as long as we both can work on our M and be satisfied with our love bank balances, thats all that matters...<p>What do you think ?<p>thelion

Oh I agree wholeheartedly with your decision.<p>I beleive that many WS that are deep in the 'fog' want to keep good relations with their in laws and are afraid that once the truth of the A is revealed to them, they will be forever shunned by them.<p>It's one thing when you've got a WS that totally ends the A once it's discovered by the BS. In that case I would be more simpathetic to not let my folks and friends know about the A because WS has done the right thing and wants to repair the damage to the M.<p>But when a WS is still continuing with the A even after d-day and shows no sign of ending it, I have no qualms about letting friends and relatives know the truth. If the WS doesn't like the fact that s/he will be shunned by the his/her in-laws well tough because they do not deserve to be rewarded by the BS for their continued thoughtlesness.<p>If she again tells you she is angry with you for telling friends and relatives about her A, ask her if her A is so right in her eyes why would she try to hide it from others?

Hi Lion,<p>Wow. Well I just read through your thread. Ok, so now you have to read through mine &#8211; entirely!<p>Nah, but I was wondering what advice Steve had. I never was really clear on whether he advised you to do a Plan A or a Plan B. In a Plan A, you would be meeting her EN&#8217;s, being pleasant, maybe even dating per se. In a Plan B, no contact unless absolutely necessary. Messages, finances, business would all be conducted through a mutual friend. There would be no contact.<p>You seem to be doing the partial contact, but little interaction. Not sure what message this sends. I guess I always thought it was Plan A, or Plan B, but no Plan A/B.<p>Finally, you talked about so much of this just being an EA, because they rarely saw each other in person. Let me tell you, the EA&#8217;s are probably harder to break. Or that&#8217;s my opinion. My wife had an EA, which was also very infrequently physical, for about 2-1/2 years. Until D-day and no-contact, she was in the fog bigtime. I Plan A&#8217;d for 15 months, with MB-coaching the entire time, but neither Jenn or myself knew about the affair. It seemed to be getting very little returns, then I was about ready to quit, then my wife confessed. And it all ended. <p>The withdrawal from OM lasted about two strong months, then has been off/on since. She abhors the counseling/coaching, but has participated enough to know the concepts and is starting to do her own Plan A. D-day was about six months ago. She has times where she really misses him, and I think some times even where she just feels used. She misses the constant attention of lots of e-mails from him each day, talking on the phone, etc. But it&#8217;s getting better. And, of course, I try to fill that need myself now.<p>Ok, now I&#8217;m rambling. I was just wondering what Steve&#8217;s recommendation was re: Plan A or B. Or to just continue doing what you&#8217;re doing.<p>P<p>PS. I think we can trust again. I know after having my heart dragged through the mud for years, I&#8217;m starting to have feelings for my wife again. For the longest time, my only motivation in continuing to work on this was to keep a family together for young daughter. That&#8217;s changing. At the same time though, there are no secret accounts, passwords, or unknown time anymore. It will take a while before trust is ever restored. Yes, openness and honesty, regardless of the message from her (like &#8220;I&#8217;m feeling bad now, because I miss what I had with OM), goes a long way toward restoring trust. And sometimes testing your ability not to LB!

Hello TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I agree! with you and though I am still confused about what I should do ? I am leaning towards telling my parents the truth, I have 24 hours to make that decision, most likely I will tell them, how bad can the truth be....<p>BTW, new update, W ready to counsel together not with MB yet but the local counselor, but I think her decision is based on the fact that I will tell everything to my parents.... I dont want that I want her to come back for me and not just to save her shame... What do you think ?<p>second, she filled EN quest, though I dont know how much familiar she is with the MB principle guess what, CONVERSATION is her 1st need which I always thought, she seems very unhappy with the way I converse with her... Is this a bias timing maybe the OM is meeting that need that is why she says that. Or perhaps that is the truth, I need to know how to fulfill her need.. Need to learn I guess the way that pleases her the best.. or deposit max love units..<p>Third, I gave SAA to her to read, I am not positive if she would read, I have filled EN quest in the book and told her that she needs to look at it, mine 1st EN is HONESTY but guess what honesty is not her need not in the 1st 7-8 needs, that is where were our differences are... I need complete honesty and openness but she still does believe certain things and certain times you can lie and hide... which I totally disagree...<p>my second EN is SF her is 3rd she says she is happy to get SF but not happy the way we do it, I never knew that, however, same is true for me my SF was never fulfilled I still have several fantasies and the move which I want her to perform which she thinks she cannot do or fulfill so I kind of suppressed it for long, so I am a dissatisfied with SF...<p>For her SF once a month or never is good, but for me 2 times a week is a necessity...like breathing...<p>Well enough for now coffee, please disect and give me your comments, you have been a great help all along, I really appreciate that...<p>TheLion

Hi persistant:<p>Give me a link to your thread, I would like to read your story. Thanks!<p>I just talked to steve once and he mentioned that unless my W talks to him we cannot do much.<p>Yes you are correct I am in Plan A/B sort of, because I have no choice we are building a house and need constant touch, though I am doing most of the work, I still want her in our decision making...who know what future hold for us.<p>I agree with you EA are more difficult to get over, I am still struggling with it on a daily basis..<p>However, I have to salute to you for your patience, I am running out of steam and I dont know how long I can take this, but you seem to handle it very well, maybe different personalities... Good Luck and keep up the good work... you will conquer your love.<p>In my case they were the best friends as well since college, that makes it hard, she just does not want to CLOSE and no contact she still emails him and call him, however, as far as I am aware that he is not interested in any relationship whatsoever, but my W is extremely obsessed with it. The only EN need the OM was meeting was conversation that too because he is single has nothing to do, I am paying for the telephone bills, OM has nothing to loose....<p>The worst part is IF there is no COMPLETE CLOSURE the M recovery is impossible and thats where I am and I dont know about you ?<p>Please hold your LB's that is the key and with time and patience we all learn that, I wish you all the luck in getting back your W and have a wonderful and fulfilling relationship.<p>TheLion

Hi Lion,<p>Actually, I was just kidding about you reading my post entirely. If you want though, it's here:<p>Persistant's JFO Post<p>BTW, it's 142, uh now 143 pages long! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] But if you're really interested, it starts about D-day and goes to present. About six months. Plus a couple of other characters jump in with their own stories too.<p>Anyway, I guess my point is that I think you either need to be in Plan A, making changes to yourself and showing her you've changed into something desirable; or in Plan B hardlining her to change and end the affair before you'll provide any support or meet any EN's. If she's going to counseling, and trying to work through the affair, my recommendation would certainly be Plan A. But I thought Steve would have suggested the same.<p>P

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Hello TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I agree! with you and though I am still confused about what I should do ? I am leaning towards telling my parents the truth, I have 24 hours to make that decision, most likely I will tell them, how bad can the truth be.... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>What's so magical about 24 hrs? Again calmly ask her if what she is doing is not bad then why does she object you telling your friends and relatives about it? If she gives you something like they wouldn't understand because you would paint a very negative picture of the situation and make her look like the villain in their eyes, then propose to her to accompany you so that she can give her side of the story when you go tell them. Chances are she will say no at which point say to her 'fine I'll proceed to tell them myself' and then leave her alone to think of what you told her. But before you leave her don't give her a time limit as to how long it will be before you let the world know about her A.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>BTW, new update, W ready to counsel together not with MB yet but the local counselor, but I think her decision is based on the fact that I will tell everything to my parents.... I dont want that I want her to come back for me and not just to save her shame... What do you think ?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Doesn't matter what her motivation for going to counseling is. Counseling will hopefully make her look inside herself and maybe see what she is doing not only to you but to herself.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>second, she filled EN quest, though I dont know how much familiar she is with the MB principle guess what, CONVERSATION is her 1st need which I always thought, she seems very unhappy with the way I converse with her... Is this a bias timing maybe the OM is meeting that need that is why she says that. Or perhaps that is the truth, I need to know how to fulfill her need.. Need to learn I guess the way that pleases her the best.. or deposit max love units..</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You may want to read the book 'Men are from Mars ,Women are from Venus' to help you to improve your conversation skills with your W.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Third, I gave SAA to her to read, I am not positive if she would read, I have filled EN quest in the book and told her that she needs to look at it, mine 1st EN is HONESTY but guess what honesty is not her need not in the 1st 7-8 needs, that is where were our differences are... I need complete honesty and openness but she still does believe certain things and certain times you can lie and hide... which I totally disagree...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Good move in giving her the book because there is the possibility that she will read it, and make her think that her A is not the answer to her problems.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>my second EN is SF her is 3rd she says she is happy to get SF but not happy the way we do it, I never knew that, however, same is true for me my SF was never fulfilled I still have several fantasies and the move which I want her to perform which she thinks she cannot do or fulfill so I kind of suppressed it for long, so I am a dissatisfied with SF...<p>For her SF once a month or never is good, but for me 2 times a week is a necessity...like breathing...<p>Well enough for now coffee, please disect and give me your comments, you have been a great help all along, I really appreciate that...<p>TheLion</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well I hate to break the news to her but almost no OM is going to want to be with a woman that wants sex once a month. SF is, if not the top EN of most men, then most certainly one of the top 3 on the list. Hopefully by opening herself to let you meet her most important EN's she will in kind reciprocate with meeting your most important EN's.<p>Overall I would have to say that your post was a very positive update. I humbly suggest that you continue to plan A.

Hi Mr. Lion - Orchid called out for reinforcements and I think I need to give you a dose of tough love. Being a Lion, you can take it. Now, sit down, this is gonna hurt. I didn't read your entire thread, so if this plows old ground, forgive me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>If your WH is not ready to give up the OW I strongly believe Plan B is the best option for people like us, who have not done anything wrong and are still suffering the aftermath of the crap.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not done anything wrong, huh? I don't believe you.<p>You may BELIEVE you didn't do anything wrong, but you did. Guaranteed.<p>This does not mean what you did wrong justifies her affair. What it DOES mean is that you have some responsibility for creating the poor marital environment that made her decision to have an affair justifiable in her mind.<p>Enter Plan A.<p>Plan A is all about YOU finding out what YOU did wrong and fixing it. Until you've done this, Plan B shouldn't even be in your vocabulary. While you're doing this, you kiss her a$$.<p>You said she's calling and wanting to talk to you? DO IT!!! This is the perfect opportunity to show her that you're the better man. Don't turn her off!! That just adds to her justification!<p>Repeat after me: Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A <p>There is NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING you can do to end the affair. But it will end. To hasten its end, do not interfere with it. While it's ending, make yourself into the best Lion you can be. This is what Plan A is all about. If you get the opportunity to meet some of her ENs, jump at the chance. Lastly, but most importantly, don't LB.<p>Now, tell us about some things you need to improve. If you don't know, ask HER.<p>WAT<p>[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

Yeah WAT,<p>Yes, I guess I have been too subtle with The Lion. Like I tried to say, you either Plan A or Plan B. What he&#8217;s doing now is some mix, and I&#8217;m sure sending the wrong message. &#8220;I care for you, but can only talk to you for a minute.&#8221;<p>Another thing &#8211; what&#8217;s with the need to tell your relatives about your wife&#8217;s indiscretion? I still don&#8217;t buy that &#8220;I must tell, or otherwise it would by a lie.&#8221; Is this how you treat your wife? It&#8217;s certainly not part of a &#8220;see how I have changed, we CAN have a good marriage, Plan A.&#8221; It&#8217;s nothing but retribution and hurt because she hurt you. Don&#8217;t try to disguise it as anything else. If you want to know what to tell your parents because the two of you aren&#8217;t living together, tell them that the two of you are having difficulties in your marriage that you are working through. Besides, your wife is in counseling isn&#8217;t she? That sounds like working on it to me.<p>I don&#8217;t think the recommendation would ever be to Plan B without first doing a serious, deliberate Plan A. The &#8220;I&#8217;ve done nothing wrong in my marriage&#8221; is not a believable stance. We&#8217;ve all done things wrong. If you were perfect, she wouldn&#8217;t have found the other man attractive.<p>It&#8217;s time to get your stuff together and do a real Plan A.<p>P<p>PS. I&#8217;m also confused about the affair. Is it still going on or not? At this point though, it doesn&#8217;t matter. After you&#8217;ve worked on YOU, then it will matter. <p>PSS. Surely, after even just 1-2 sessions with Steve, the two of you talked about what you should be doing. What did her recommend? I don't buy the "can't do anything until wife participates" thing. I counseled with Jennifer for over a year before my wife ever picked up the phone to talk to her. Plan A coaching.

Hello TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>My parents are visiting me today from out of state, that was magical about 24 hours.....<p>I am trying plan A, but FOG is so thick I dont know how long I can sustain it, also, do I really want this...<p>This is the W I gave everything, my life, money, my heart, my soul, my flesh, and she even doesn't care or have remorse... Honestly I just found out the EA might be 3-4 years or b4 the M, how can you tell when you cant even differentiate between what is TRUTH and Lie ???? Honestly I am giving up....<p>Thanks Coffee! you have been a great help, hope all is well with your daughters, take care of them.<p>TheLion....

Hi worthatry:<p>I agree with you and respect your frank and honest opinion.<p>However, A is not a solution to a Marital problem, if you have a problem in the marriage you discuss and try to solve if still you are unhappy, you get out of the M via D and than do whatever you want but not while you are committed to the M... make sense!<p>yes, her 1st EN is conversation, I may have lacked the way she get pleased, but definately I am not denying that i am perfect, I am learning how to converse and what conversation will deposit the max love units... No doubt about that...<p>also, here is a proble, my 1st EN is HONESTY AND OPENNESS, however, this is not on her list of top 10 ENs by the way she has weird ideas that lie, deception, manupulation and holding on info to herself is OK, that is the way she has been brought up, so unless she makes an effort to master this skill I will never be satisfied bcoz that is my primary need...<p>second I am extremely dissapointed with my 2nd EN which is SF, for her once a month is OK for me atleast minimum 2 times a weeks, that is bare min, dont you agree....<p>Well what do you think ? is there a way out apart from D.....<p>"What it DOES mean is that you have some responsibility for creating the poor marital environment that made her decision to have an affair justifiable in her mind"<p>she has that responsibility too, i think the M was poor, but I did not go out and did what she did, if I want to do that I will get a D 1st and do that next, dont you agree....<p>
Well I dont know if I want to kiss her A$$ forever......<p>her top 5 EN
conversation
Financial
SF
Attractive spouse
domestic help<p>I was ranked perfect on all except the 1st which the OM is fulfilling because she is OPEN and HONEST with him, I could also have a wonderful conversation if she is Open and honest with me...<p>We had that b4 the A maybe we lost it about 3-4 years ago.. and since than i have been pursuing to get this straighten out but I was not aware of the A until 2-1/2 months ago... you see my prob ?<p>well help!
thank you all!
thelion