Hello persistant:<p>I agree with you to a certain extent about plan A, and I have or might have done things wrong, I have shown her and helped her see that I am ready to change but the FOG can never see that....<p>Also, you have to understand that to me it looks like deceived me even b4 the M because I am still not sure if there was some A or connection when they were classmate in college.... <p>if you think it that way it was all along a lie, so why do I want this M back so badly, just because I love her to death does not mean she did too, rather she never loved me it was A LIE, double life....<p>well persistant thanks for all your help... I am giving up hope...<p>No the A is over but my W is obsessed to the extreme will not let go, she still chases the OM who is overseas via e-mail and telephone.....<p>I have talked to steve, she has never and is not ready to talk to him.......<p>TheLion

Yep, I see your problem very clearly.<p>You are quite confused about Plan A/B and you're not sure what you want to do.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>However, A is not a solution to a Marital problem, if you have a problem in the marriage you discuss and try to solve if still you are unhappy, you get out of the M via D and than do whatever you want but not while you are committed to the M... make sense!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, but your W is not currently committed to the marriage so this ideal "normal" solution isn't applicable to you nor to any other marriage enduring an affair. <p>Plan A is not advertised as a solution to a marital problem - it's a solution to YOUR problems and a solution for what you do while the affair runs its course.<p>Now, I and others here can help you implement Plan A/B if you want to try to salvage your marriage. If you don't want this, just say so and I won't waste my time. <p>If you can't kiss her butt, then give up and file for divorce. You haven't been at this nearly as long as a lot of other people who post on this forum so if you don't have it in you, just say so.<p>But I will tell you this: what you're currently doing is NOT Plan A. Based on what you've described, you have an excellent chance at restoring your marriage to a much better condition than you ever imagined.<p>Yes, she is wrong and it's unfair for you to have to go thru this. Despite your contributions, what she has done is unexcusable. Your are right to expect honesty and respect from her. She is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! You are RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT!!<p>Do you wanna be right or do you wanna be married?<p>So, what will it be?<p>WAT

Hi worthatry:<p>I see your point but see no HOPE...
I have to think for a while and make that decision, but rationally i am ready for D....<p>Emotinally ready to fight and this confusion will never let me decide... I have to decide thought...<p>You are right, she is wrong, but cannot see it...<p>Well maybe plan B is the answer.....
Because as long as A continues I cannot see any hope, also just to let you know I have been playing plan A for last 6 months, though the D day is 2-1/2 months ago..<p>I know people on this board have played plan A for 2 years as well, and I am not them, I cannot do it period....<p>TheLION

Here's your first problem: you want to fight, but this isn't about fighting, it's about loving. <p>Your other misconceptions: You want to change her, but you can't expect to be able to change anybody except yourself. <p>You expect her to be rational, but she doesn't have that capability right now and you don't see it. <p>You think the affair is over, but it's not. <p>You think she was open and honest with OM, but she wasn't. <p>You think you've been Plan A'ing for awhile, but you haven't started. <p>You don't think you can kiss her butt for very long, but you can.<p>And last, but not least, you forget who you're dealing with. She's been abducted by aliens and had her brains scrambled. She's re-writing history and going thru all kinds of mental gymnastics in order to justify her actions and the changes to her value system. Be suspicious of everything she says and half of what she does. This is EXACTLY why the "normal" process of resolving marital disputes won't work in this case.<p>WAT

Hi worthatry:
<strong>Here's your first problem: you want to fight, but this isn't about fighting, it's about loving. (agreed it is about love)!<p>Your other misconceptions: You want to change her, but you can't expect to be able to change anybody except yourself. (I agree!)<p>You expect her to be rational, but she doesn't have that capability right now and you don't see it. (OK, so when will that be ?) no one knows!<p>You think the affair is over, but it's not. (OK in denial)<p>You think she was open and honest with OM, but she wasn't. (well if she wasnt how was her needs of conversation met) I guess I am confused!<p>You think you've been Plan A'ing for awhile, but you haven't started. (well I do not agree here) <p>You don't think you can kiss her butt for very long, but you can. (How can you ?) after all this!<p>And last, but not least, you forget who you're dealing with. She's been abducted by aliens and had her brains scrambled. She's re-writing history and going thru all kinds of mental gymnastics in order to justify her actions and the changes to her value system. Be suspicious of everything she says and half of what she does. This is EXACTLY why the "normal" process of resolving marital disputes won't work in this case.
(So what you are saying is only MB principle will work and anything rational will not work) is that correct ?<p>TheLION
WAT</strong>[/QUOTE]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>(So what you are saying is only MB principle will work and anything rational will not work) is that correct?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No, that's not what I'm saying at all.<p>You can continue to do what you're doing and suffer thru this ordeal and it's possible that she will come out of the fog before it's too late and decide to work on your marriage. Recovery from affairs has been going on for as long as marriages have been around - long before MB - so, clearly, MB principles is not the only success path for recovery. Further, MB principles don't always work. My marriage is a good example of this.<p>My point was that you're trying to be rational with an irrational person. Rationality won't work until she comes out of the fog.<p>So, whether you use MB principles or not, you can continue your course and maybe she'll return. If you do absolutely nothing, maybe she'll return. In fact, doing ANYTHING to try to end the affair will probably make it worse. But what do you do when she does come back? Return to the same poor state of your marriage that existed before the affair? Remember, the affair is not the problem - it's only a symptom.<p>MB principles DO NOT END THE AFFAIR. Only the affairees can do that.<p>MB principles are all about taking care of yourself during the affair and recovering from the affair when the WS is ready.<p>WAT

Hi worthatry:<p>I agree with you we are trying to deal with ratinality with an irrational person, I really appreciate your replies....<p>To be honest yes I would like to learn and make myself a better person with all the MB principles however, I am not sure if and when she comes out of the FOG I will be ready to take her back, and as of now I am not sure if I want to wait that long ? which unfortunately I dont even know when it will be ?? I cant take so much uncertainty. I would rather close this and start all over again in that case I know what I am getting into, rather than get BETRAYED again and again by the same person... What is your take in this ?<p>My sympathies with you because your M could not be saved, but I am sure you are happy that you tried every possible way to save it... correct ?<p>I am reaching that point as well, where I will be satisfied with myself that i did everything I could if she cannot see it or does not want to see it too bad for her and me as well.<p>Thaks WAT, once again, you thoughts help me see thru other side of the coin!<p>TheLION
<strong><p>No, that's not what I'm saying at all.<p>You can continue to do what you're doing and suffer thru this ordeal and it's possible that she will come out of the fog before it's too late and decide to work on your marriage. Recovery from affairs has been going on for as long as marriages have been around - long before MB - so, clearly, MB principles is not the only success path for recovery. Further, MB principles don't always work. My marriage is a good example of this.<p>My point was that you're trying to be rational with an irrational person. Rationality won't work until she comes out of the fog.<p>So, whether you use MB principles or not, you can continue your course and maybe she'll return. If you do absolutely nothing, maybe she'll return. In fact, doing ANYTHING to try to end the affair will probably make it worse. But what do you do when she does come back? Return to the same poor state of your marriage that existed before the affair? Remember, the affair is not the problem - it's only a symptom.<p>MB principles DO NOT END THE AFFAIR. Only the affairees can do that.<p>MB principles are all about taking care of yourself during the affair and recovering from the affair when the WS is ready.<p>WAT</strong>[/QUOTE]

Hi Lion!<p>(I'm guessing you are a Leo?) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Do you ever lurk over on the General Questions II board? Try it sometime, maybe over the weekend? THere's lots more traffic there, and from reading thru your thread, seems you may relate to some of what others are going through.<p>You've been given GREAT advice all over this thread. DO you ever go back, relax, and read back through it to see where you've come from, and see the advice with a new day's eyes on?<p>ok... not much to add really. <p>Here's 2 links you may find helpful. let me know what you think, k?<p>Length of time for Plan A<p>The Mis-Application of Plan A<p>
I'd like to try to address some of what you posted last to WAT:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>To be honest yes I would like to learn and make myself a better person with all the MB principles however, I am not sure if and when she comes out of the FOG I will be ready to take her back, and as of now I am not sure if I want to wait that long ? which unfortunately I dont even know when it will be ?? I cant take so much uncertainty. I would rather close this and start all over again in that case I know what I am getting into, rather than get BETRAYED again and again by the same person... What is your take in this ? <hr></blockquote><p>ahhhh... the questions and feelings many of us have/had. I believe this is the same thought process our WS's had when they chose to have an affair. As the marriage comes out of the honeymoon stage - things got a little stale - or even got to a very poor state, MANY WS's decided they might rather go start over somewhere else then face the problems head-on and stay married.<p>The problem with this "grass is greener on the other side" is that weeds grow over there too. right?<p>So why not weed and feed your own yard, and give it nurturing, time and patience, before giving up on it? You're in a period of draught now, right? There may be rain right around the corner. But you don't get a beautiful lawn overnight, and you sure don't get it without some hard work.<p>so.... enough of that silly analogy [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ...<p>I believe you CAN kiss her a$$ for a little while. I believe a marriage is made up of mutual a$$-kissing, for a lifetime. If you kiss hers for a lil bit, she may decide to pucker up herself... or maybe not. only time will tell.<p>The point that I believe everyone is trying to make with you, is give this some more time and patience. You may feel that your situation is hopeless, but we've seen FAR too many stories on this forum of hopeless situations turning into success stories!<p>Your not sure if you can ever love and trust her again? SHe's not sure if you can change what needs to be changed. <p>Well, I hope that helps a little. No one promised this would be easy. But nothing WORTH anything comes easy, does it? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Roll up your sleeves and don't be afraid of some work... it will be worth it! <p>Take care of YOU... and give this time.<p>[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>I cant take so much uncertainty. I would rather close this and start all over again in that case I know what I am getting into, rather than get BETRAYED again and again by the same person... What is your take in this ?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>My take is that either you want to try this or you don't. No one can predict how long it will be before you get a chance at rebuilding your marriage. Even if she comes out of the fog today, you still have a lot of uncertainty about the durability of your recovery. This is where the MB principles can help, if applied correctly. As you recognized previously, this is not the only way. But if done as designed, the goal is that you then have an affair-proof marriage because you've both learned how to meet each other's ENs.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>My sympathies with you because your M could not be saved, but I am sure you are happy that you tried every possible way to save it... correct ?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You're a good straight man, Mr Lion. Perhaps "happy" isn't the correct word, but I am content knowing I did all I could and I have no guilt. If not for MB, I may not be where I am today in this regard. You see, I am a Plan A/B success story and I'm divorced. See? Plan A/B is all about YOU!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I am reaching that point as well, where I will be satisfied with myself that i did everything I could if she cannot see it or does not want to see it too bad for her and me as well.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>If you truly think you're at the end of your rope AND you've demonstrated your Plan A improvements, Plan B is next. But, I'd like to read that you're gonna give Plan A some more time. Get to a doc and get on some anti-depressants. You may find your second wind - and then your third, and fourth, and fifth..........<p>Please consider slowing down with your time frame. Is a few more months of Plan A worth the potential for a long, wonderful marriage? <p>WAT

Hey Lion, I have been reading the lastest advice given to you and man it is making me more and more confused. What to do, what to do. Like you I am seeing my parents this weekend and I want to tell them everything including that W is pregnant with OM's kid.
BIG NEWS - W called today after 6 days on plan b.
We talked for over two hours. She did not deny the affair this time and listenend to me discuss the Love Bank and my understanding of why the affair occurred. It went quite well. However, she is still very much unclear about where to go from here and feels like keeping a child away from its natural father is wrong and cannot be done. I told her I agreed and it can be done, but what cannot be done is for her to continue talking to OM. He can visit the child, but when he visits you need to be out of the house. And if he calls, I talk to him. I told her that is how it would have to be. She did not disagree, but listened. She did tell me about all the horrible things I did over the years that made her question our marriage etc. . . It went quite well, but now I am at a point where I don't know what to do again. She seemed a lot more clear headed and more mature about the whole thing. Should I now continue on with plan A again or stick with plan B which will be difficult. OH, btw, she wants me to tell my parents. She asked me to call her afterwards to tell her how it went. It seems like she wants the truth out of the bag . . Damn this is so confusing. I think one of the reasons you and I feel like just going for the D which sometimes feels like giving up is because it is so damn hard to live like this. And could we really find happiness again with our WW. I too feel sometimes like maybe this marriage was one that should never have happened. She did mention that she has no intention of having another child and I told her that is something that we can talk about should she decide she wants to make a commitment to me. And of course for me that is a total LB. I really want to have a family with her and if one child of another man will be my only family, that may be a major LB for me. Especially if OM is an active participant of the kid's life which is how she sees the future right now. Being that my wife is pregnant with OM's baby and that this affair is a heavy EA with the "soulmate" issue it seems to me that the best thing for me is to move on. However, if my wife was not pregnant I would definetely be plan A'ing for awhile longer. W has already been able to see that OM is not Mr. Perfect that she thought at first and she can recognize that life with him will not be the bliss that she imagines. Your wife will soon see that this obsession with OM is a waste and will realize that The Lion is still there loving her everyday. The fog will clear. With my wife, the fog is still lingering and sometimes realy heavy but unfortunately she had to get pregnant for a little clarity to come. Since your W's OM is not around, your W still has these lingering thoughts that if he were here, we could be so happy together. Your W might need to spend some more time with him to realize he is not the Prince Charming that she imagines, by then it will be too late to return to the lion. I hope for your sake that she can realize this on her own without having to destroy your marriage. I guess you have to be a little more patient and plan A a little longer. Think about it, you know she will not be seeing him becaue he is far away so you don't have to worry about the PA continuing plus she is not pregnant with his kid!!It is almost funny when I think about it now!
So I don't see any reason for you to not continue plan A. If OM is really out of the picture, at some point your W will realize that the man who really loves her and she should be with is you.
Good luck Lion.
I will need some too.

hI Faith1:<p>Yes I am a leo!<p>I will start posting on GEN Q II..<p>You are right on point looks like the M got out of honeymoon phase, yes we had WORLDLY problems now and than but you see I am a person who will face the problem right on however, my W will not she will procstinate, and sit on it forever without facing the problem. Or rather she had A to get away from these worldly issue's...<p>"time and patience"<p>These are two very powerful words.... I dont know if I can live with it. Only time will tell.<p>Thanks Faith,! I will always remember your name and advise!<p>TheLion

Lion I was reading the missaplication of plan A thread and saw this, I thought it might be helpful.
Until the WS comes to you with: 1) genuine remorse, 2) a commitment to end things with the OP, and 3) a desire to understand what went wrong and learn from it (implementation of the extraordinary measures, openness, and acceptance of your feelings), you have nothing of value.
I guess your W and mine have not shown us this as of yet. In my contact with her today after plan B'ing for 6 days I thought she did have a desire to understand what went wrong but she was using it to justify the affair, to defend her actions. I think may be all the advice to stick with plan a or b is just not helping because it seems to me that in your mind plan A is no longer possible, but you are still a bit scared and unwilling to go for plan B. From my understanding, we should go with plan b when we are no longer capable of applying plan a and it looks like you are at that point. May be you should ask your wife to either take care of all the things about the house or ask her to not participate in any of the decisions about the house. I bet that will be a major wake-up call, but I am sure it can also be viewed as a major LB as well. But what a way to start with a serious no holds-barred plan B!

WOW tofu<p>What a change Plan B has done for you!!! I really respect your guts man, I would never be able to go thru what you have described.....<p>I dont know what I will be doing, but you seem to be handling things better, I guess we all have good and bad days!!!!<p>Hang in there my friend, we will pass thru these storms......<p>TakeCare and continue plan B do not plan A until the FOG clears altogether otherwise you will be back to square one!!!!<p>TheLion

Hello worthatry:<p>Thanks once again for all your advise.. I can relate to it but effectively following is HARD.<p>Here is another problem, lying still continues, my W has started applying for jobs out of state, I dont know what she is trying to do, run away from all this ?? dont know....too many lies, how do i dissect them and make decisions....<p>I will give PATIENCE AND TIME a try and see how long i can take it...<p>Thanks again!
TheLION

Yes tofu you are right I have not seen and genuine remorse, nor understanding of why this happened. Both of our W's are in deep FOG, they are not here they are in alien land, we cannot convey any message across...<p>The only thing to do is plan B and wait as long as we can and just give when you cannot continue any longer, for me that is sure coming along very soon....<p>You take care man, I think by the time we get over this, I can get couple of PHD's in A.. what do you think.. I have been reading too much...
I need to stop and think rather...<p>TheLION

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Here is another problem, lying still continues,</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OF COURSE it continues! The Mothership requires it! This is not another problem. It's all part of the affair. Lying is fundamental.<p>Re-read what I said previously. You are not dealing with a rational person. Believe none of what she says and only half of what she does. Heck, she's lying to herself!<p>She's is just like the hundreds of other WSs I've read about. She will not stop lying until she escapes the clutches of her addiction. think of her as a drug addict or a drunk. Have you ever tried reasoning with a drunk? Same thing.<p>tofu - you need to decide whether you're in Plan B or not. You say you are, but you're not doing it. What the heck are you doing talking to her? What were your conditions you set in your Plan B letter for communication? Did she meet them?<p>Forgive me guys for being so harsh with you, but I want you to succeed. This is not just a cheerleading section. Until that judge signs that Order, you have a chance. Even after that, if you want it, you can still succeed in recovery. The really hard part is deciding what your goal is - and when to change your mind.

Hi fellas!<p>ditto WAT...<p>and persistant worded it very well:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>In a Plan A, you would be meeting her EN&#8217;s, being pleasant, maybe even dating per se. In a Plan B, no contact unless absolutely necessary. Messages, finances, business would all be conducted through a mutual friend. There would be no contact.<p>You seem to be doing the partial contact, but little interaction. Not sure what message this sends.
<hr></blockquote><p>
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Okay Plan B question-
My WW called me today. I said hello I am happy to hear from you. Then our conversation started.
How was I supposed to react? Should I have immediately asked her, are you ready to reconcile with OM out of the pic? If she said no then I would say very nicely to call back when you are ready for that. Is that what I should have done?
I don't know I figured I needed to at least get a feel of where she is at. One positive thing did happen. She did not go berserk when I said the word "affair" or "lover". She didn't deny it, but she did tell me all the BAD things I had done all these years THAT I had no idea were bad things that caused her to look elsewhere for love i.e. justifying the affair.
How about this, I do not call her back telling her about my talk with my parents. I am going to lay it all out for them. If she wants to know about it, she can call me and ask. ouch, can i really do that???
I can do it. I can do it.

Another thing- she told me today that she repressed herself so much these years with me that she never was really herself and lately she has become a completely different person. She and I are not really on the same wavelength as far as life goals. Could this be a sign for me to move on knowing that everything she says now may or may not be true. 3 things that she says that I am totally NOT in agreement with and will have a hard time dealing with.
1. I only want one kid, Om's kid! (She used to say she wanted at least 3 kids)
2. I want to live in the country and not send my kid to school. (She used to love to be at her Grandma's with all her little cousins - the big rowdy house with lots of family all over - that was one of her dreams early on in our marriage - but she also wanted to be a doctor which she has given up too)
3. I don't want my kid to ever watch tv or go to disney world ( the happiest place on earth!)
(She never did like TV and resents it because that is one of the things with which I avoided her these past few years so I understand that one but Disney?? She went there for the first time with me and she absolutely loved it. She liked to collect disney character stuffed animals.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Originally quoted by tofu:<strong> How was I supposed to react? Should I have immediately asked her, are you ready to reconcile with OM out of the pic? If she said no then I would say very nicely to call back when you are ready for that. Is that what I should have done? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Almost.<p>This would be more effective:<p>You: (without interrupting) Did you understand my letter?<p>Her: (It doesn't matter what she says)<p>You: I understand your concern. Please respect my wishes to not communicate directly with you. It's just too painful for me. I'd be delighted to talk about our future when you're ready to work on our marriage. I love you. Goodbye (Click)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> I don't know I figured I needed to at least get a feel of where she is at. </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>We KNOW where's she's at: under control of the Mothership. You'll know when she's not - she'll tell you.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> One positive thing did happen. She did not go berserk when I said the word "affair" or "lover". </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>Nothing positive about that. You just LB'd and you don't even know it. Don't say anything that comes close to accusing her or could possibly make her feel guilty.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> How about this, I do not call her back telling her about my talk with my parents. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>How about this: You don't call her about ANYTHING? You're either in Plan A, Plan B, or divorced. Only if children are involved should you initiate ANY contact - and then only thru an intermediary or indirectly thru voice mail or e-mail. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> If she wants to know about it, she can call me and ask. </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>If she does, repeat the conversation above.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> Another thing- she told me today that she repressed herself so much these years with me that she never was really herself and lately she has become a completely different person. She and I are not really on the same wavelength as far as life goals. Could this be a sign for me to move on knowing that everything she says now may or may not be true. </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>No, quite the contrary - this is a sign that she's a typical WS. In her being so, you have an excellent chance of restoring your marriage to a condition much better than you can imagine.<p>Everything else she said is straight from the WS script. She is very, very, very typical. Your situation is not unique.<p>So, tell us, what did you accomplish in your Plan A?<p>WAT<p>[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

I see what you mean WAT. The whole time I was talking to her I thought you know I am not really sticking to my plan B but I COULDN'T STOP! I was enjoying talking to her, I was weak! I see what you mean about bringing up the affair being an LB, but once again I couldn't help it! I see what you mean by it being better that we not talk to them at all because it is useless when they are under control of the mothership and anything we say will most likely not make any difference at all.
I am not really sure exactly what I accomplished in my plan A because she left me pretty suddenly after D-day. She spent two weeks with me in mid-April before going to stay at her Dad's to "sort things out" and go to therapy (which I hope is a good thing at least for her sake). She kept telling me how amazing I was during those two weeks etc. . . I did plan A perfectly those two weeks. She returned to the OM to pick up her stuff and return to me that was when she discovered that she was pregnant. She returned to me pregnant suffering major OM withdrawal and guilty feelings about taking his baby away from him. This was difficult for me and I LB'd a lot at that time and really ruined the plan A I had been working on.
So Lion make sure you are really ready to plan B before starting it because I am not sure I was.
It is very difficult to let go.