I hope someone can give me some advice because I am having a really difficult time with this. My wife and I celebrated our 10th anniversary last August – a marriage that gave us 3 sons. A little over a year ago, my wife and I were having some marital problems. She had a business that eventually folded and I it bothered her very much. She took another job, and that's when the big problems started. What I didn't know at the time was that she was looking for someone else. She felt that I wasn't there for her emotionally. By July of last year, it became obvious that something was wrong. I sat down with her and asked her what she was thinking. She assured me that nothing was wrong. A week later, she told me she wanted a divorce. I'm quite sure that she was already involved with her boss by that time, but she won't admit to that. She filed for a divorce in October, but put it on hold for about a month, until she could "sort things out". In November, I discovered that she was having an affair, and when confronted, she confessed. She also said that it was over. Then I discovered that she spent the weekend after Thanksgiving with him while I was with our children at her sister's house for the holiday. I told her to move out, and she did by the end of the month, taking my 2 youngest boys. Our oldest (14 yrs old) refuses to speak with her. (He was trying to tell me that she was having an affair before I figured it out). The evening that she moved out, she told me that she will miss me, and again said that she told her lover that she didn't want to see him any more. By February, we seemed to be getting along pretty good. I began to show her that I still love her and told her that I could forgive her for the affair, and the hurt that was associated with it. By April, she started to act like something was wrong again, but she assured me that she was not dating anyone, nor was she interested in a relationship with anyone because she likes her independence. We began making some plans. The plan was that I was to get a new job in Colorado near her sister, and she was going to move out there with my boys so I can be with them as much as I wanted to. She wasn't going to move in with me, but I thought that the change would do us both some good, and who knows... ?<p>About a month ago, she told me that she was thinking of moving to the small town about 15 miles away from where we live until I find a new job, and moved some her things over there. The house was supposed to be a friend's grandmother's house, and she could stay there rent free, so I was told. Memorial weekend, she said she was taking the boys to stay at the new house (she still lives in a house near me). The following weekend, my son told me that they spent the weekend at their new with some man. Turns out, she took them to her lover's house for the weekend, and that she and my boys are moving in with him by the end of the month. She told my 10 yr old that he cannot tell me where they went or who they spent the weekend with or he was going to get into a lot of trouble.<p>I don't know what to do. I thought things were going good. We even get intimate on occasions (we haven't in a couple of months). She tells me that she loves him and that she wants to spend the rest of her life with him. I'm not letting my boys live with her and HIM. We aren't even divorced yet. I filed for custody last week, which obviously is causing more problems. I know she loves me. When we talk about "us", she always starts to cry. Through all this, her mother and father refuses to speak with her. She has abandoned all her friends and they won't speak to her. Her siblings have tried to talk to her, but she refuses to talk to them and virtually abandoned them. And her oldest son refuses to speak with her because he is so angry with her for abandoning him, too. I don't even know who she is anymore. <p>Is it time to move on to Plan B? I'm not sure if I'm ready for Plan B because I am afraid I will lose her completely. I suppose I've already lost her though. I have continued to help her throughout this whole mess. When she needs money (in addition to the child support that I pay her), she comes to me and I always end up helping her. When she wants me to watch the boys so she can "go out with the girls", she can always count on me. Now she doesn't ask me because I know that she has been seeing him, and so she just takes the boys with her for the night or weekend. <p>Okay, sorry this has been such a long story, but can someone give me some advice? I've been working on Plan A from the start, which has been just about a year. What's my next move? I'm all out of ideas and I'm frustrated and exhausted. Maybe there's no Plan A or B to consider... maybe I just can't come to grips that she is gone.

I know it's hard, but IMHO, I think it's time for plan B for you. She is trapped in feelings for you and the OM, take away you, make her see what it will be like for you to be completely out of her life. She still knows she can come back to you if things don't work out with the OM. Now is the time for you and your son. Save what love you have for her, and don't let her destroy what you have left. <p>I know it's hard, it's one of the hardes decisions I ever had to make, but you also know when it's needed. Make sure everything that you want to say is said, and it makes it a little easier, at least it did for me. I didn't have no instances where I was like, oh, I should of also said this and that, maybe I should call my H and tell him. I said all that I could say, did all that I could do, so I knew it was time for me to turn it completely over to God and let him go.<p>That was about a month ago, and if you read my topic of "Guess who just called me", you'll see where I stand now. <p>Best of luck to you, and always remember to look up when you are down, God helps those who ask for his help.

Hi John, <p>Welcome to MB. It is a hard place to be but you will find support. I am sorry your children had to be subjected to the foggy actions of your W. She is not in her right mind because no mother would put her children exposed to that type of harm. Never mind whether the OM is a good or bad person, just the fact that she tried to get her children to lie for her is bad enough. <p>Your children now need support and counseling as do you. See what services are available for them. Do you have a personal counselor? Maybe they can recommend one for your children as well. Steve and Jennifer are good coaches for plan B vs plan A. <p>My opinion is if your children's lives are in jeporady, then you need to protect your family's interests ahead of hers. <p>Read the basic concepts section located under the logo at the top of this page. Then get ahold of the book surviving an Affair by Dr W. Harley and then another book: Love must be tough by Dr James Dobson. <p>Let us know what you think. <p>take care,
L.

Hi, I'm new to this site also. I just wanted to say that after over 2 years into the recovery with my WS, I look back and wish I would have had that tough love more back then. But with 4 of our dear children looking us in the eyes, it's easier said than done sometimes. But everytime, I got strong and made him move out because of the OW, he seemed to get a little more sense into his head, and always came running back home. But I always trusted too much, and took him back way too early. Each separation was about 1 or 2 months long. It's like you said. In some sense, you've lost her anyway, so pray for strength in your most difficult decisions. Pray for your children that all of this will have minimal impact on them. My husbands affair had an impact on the daughter, and she is in counseling after 2 years of trying to forgive her Dad. Hang in there. This is the worst time of your life, but I promise there will be an end to it all. Life someday will be pleasant again.<p>sunflowergirl

Welcome thejohnsmith...<p>BTW: your name is the same as my stepson's biological father... God rest his soul.<p>There is a post of general welcome I wish to share with you... [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It has a lot of quick links to many of the most important MB sites...
Click here ==> General Welcome for All New Builders(Newbies)<p>About your post...<p>Your story is not much different than mine...
...I tried to push off my divorce for as long as I could....
...I suggest you try the same.<p>Do start/stay on a Plan A...
Check out the post Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.).<p>Plan B should be done... only...
...when you've put in the effort of a good Plan A...
...when you've improved yourself...
...when you can accpet permanent separation...
...eventually leading to divorce.<p>You have my prayers.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim / NSR

Thanks, everyone, for your advice. I&#8217;m just so confused right now that I&#8217;m not really sure what to do next. I first found MB last November, after the first time my W (I&#8217;m not good with all those acronyms, so I hope I don&#8217;t confuse anyone by using the wrong ones) admitted to her affair. I read about Plan A and I tried to show her my love for her, and tried to meet as many of her needs as she would let me. But I have to admit that many times I would say things that were LBs. I know that I shouldn&#8217;t ever say these things, but sometimes frustration strikes so quickly that I barely have a chance to stop it. So, I know that I drove her to him the more I lashed out. More recently, I do a good job of remaining calm. But I continue to ask myself &#8220;how can she do these things to me? I am her husband of 10 years!&#8221; This is still so unbelievable that I still (after almost a year) have a hard time believing the things my wife has done. Anyway, I know I didn&#8217;t do Plan A correctly. <p>I know she loves me, but like the familiar cliché, she&#8217;s not in love with me. On occasion, we do hold each other for a long time. I know she doesn&#8217;t want to hurt me, but I also know she can&#8217;t let go of this OM. I know that there is little chance that this A can turn into a lasting relationship for many reasons. I already told her that I&#8217;m not going to try to stop the A, simply because I can&#8217;t. I told her that I&#8217;m just waiting for it to die on its own. But, until then, I feel like I&#8217;m being used. <p>She told me that she wants me to go over to her house so we can talk tonite. I have no idea what she wants to talk to me about, but I know it&#8217;s not something good. One of my boys told me that she is getting me a father&#8217;s day gift. I don&#8217;t understand it. I think I&#8217;m ready for Plan B. But why is it recommended that Plan B should be initiated with a letter? Why can&#8217;t I say the things I want to tell her in person? It seems to me it would have a greater impact than getting a letter. I dunno. I love her to pieces, but I wonder if I will ever be able to trust her again, not because of the A, but because virtually everything she has said to me over the past year is a lie. I&#8217;ve been pulling my hair out in confusion. I think about this 24/7, but when it comes time to write about this, I just don&#8217;t even know where to begin.<p> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

John, <p>Thanks for responding. NSR gave you some great advice. Let's work on strengthening you so you can deal with your W for now. <p>When you go over, expect nothing. She makes you dinner, try to swallow it down and if it tastes good hand out the compliments. AM I asking you to be a doormat? No, just give compliments where do. Don't butter her up. <p>When she asks questions that you know you will retort in an LB, let her know you can't answer them right now. She'll have to settle for that since many a WS do that to us. If she fusses, look past that and stand your ground. That should get you through the evening and come back and post. K? <p>L.

Thanks, Orchid. However, I ended up reading your advice after my visit w/ my wife. By the way, orchids are some of my favorite flowers - along with daffodils. <p>Anyway, I was in a good mood. I suppose that always help. I wasn't expecting much, other than her telling me when she is moving in w/ OM and my kids. She wished me Happy Fathers Day, and she gave me a card and a shirt. The card was nothing special, and was from her and the boys. Nothing on the card said any reference to "love" or anything sentimental like that. The conversation was light for a while, and then she said "anyway, there is something I've been wanting to tell you". She said that she wanted this to be confidential between the two of us (meaning that I don't say anything to her mother about this, for some reason). She said that she wasn't sure about moving in with him. I was just about to ask why, when she said that was all she was going to say about it. She didn't want to explain or expand on it, or anything. That was it. <p>Later, I told her that I knew she was very confused right now, and if it would help, I would be willing to talk to her about it. I know she is going through some sort of a personal crisis. I reminded her that I was going through the same feelings 2 years ago. I was very unhappy with my marriage, my job, my finances, my life in general. I told her I wanted a divorce. That's probably the turning point in our marriage when she started to lose her love for me. I was SO confused about everything, and I didn't sort things out until last summer, about the time when she gave up on me. Communication was the biggest problem... both of us are guilty. Anyway, I told her tonite that I could probably help her figure some things out, other issues should be addressed at counseling. I also suggested dropping in on this website, which I doubt she ever will. She started crying and acknowledged that she is VERY confused about things. <p>I tried to be careful in what I said to her, but I am a talker. So, I'm sure somewhere in our conversation I probably said some kind of a LB, but I felt good about our conversation overall. I don't think that I have any more to say to her regarding my feelings, etc. I've said it all by now. I suppose I'll just sit and wait. Am I right? I don't think I should be helping her in any way other than emotional support. I'm done giving her money, and I'm done doing her favors. She's used me too many times over the past months that I feel like, well, like a doormat, I suppose. Is there any plan between A and B? I feel like I'm somewhere in between... unwilling to go the mile for Plan A, but not ready to go on with Plan B. Does this make sense? <p>So, we hugged for a long while before I left and got a quick kiss on my lips. I told her I loved her as I walked out the door. I feel alright about it, but I can't feel too awfully excited considering the fact that she spent the past 2 nights with her OM.<p>That's the extent of my night w/ W. What's your take on things. Why do you suppose she doesn't want me to talk to anyone about her decision not to live w/ OM? I have a suspicion that she's setting me up, considering the fact that I am trying for custody of my kids based on her decision to move in w/ OM and my boys. Let me know what you think.<p>JS

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by NSR:
<strong>Welcome thejohnsmith...<p>Do start/stay on a Plan A...
Check out the post Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.).<p>Plan B should be done... only...
...when you've put in the effort of a good Plan A...
...when you've improved yourself...
...when you can accpet permanent separation...
...eventually leading to divorce.<p>
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim / NSR</strong><hr></blockquote><p>TJS,
You are pretty right on the money about what to do next. If you haven't already read what NSR wrote and the links in his post. <p>You are correct about not allowing yourself to be treated like a doormat and that you need to be cautious about what she is tellling you. Many a WS attempt to setup the BS and coerce the BS into enabling the A. <p>There is no inbetween plan A and B. You are in plan A. If you still see the need to improve yourself, then stay in plan A so with your improved communication skills she will see it. But it does not mean constant communication just skillful communication. <p>Plan B eliminates communication or cuts is down to bare minimum. The reason for plan B is more of a protection mode than an improvement mode. <p>Continue to check out your options and know that she may move in with the OM. If you can find something to validate a restraining order on the OM to prevent him from being around your children, then that is your perogative. <p>take care,
L.

Thanks again, Orchid. You helped me to understand the distinction between Plan A and Plan B. W called me at work this morning regarding my son's counselling appointment. She said she was afraid she was going to be evicted from her house. She asked me if I could help her out with her rent for this month. What if she asks to move back in with me? If I said no, wouldn't I be giving her no choice other than moving in w/ OM? Do you think I should try to help her pay her rent? I don't think that I will help her out with money issues.

Hi TJS,<p>Well you W is certainly in a delimea. Now what are all her options? See sometimes the WS makes themselves be in a bad situation and expect the BS to bail them out. Is that her pattern? <p>My H moved out, then asked me how he was going to pay for his son's daycare and all his new expenses. I told him that was not my issue and he needed to be resourceful and still come up with his share. I did help out at the beginning by paying his credit card bills and all our expenses including our child's day care. Then when I could no longer do that and stay afloat and realized that this was enabling the A (I was still being called all kinds of names and I was paying his bills - no appreciation). I stopped. The WS then threatened to go to the OW for $$, I told him go . In fact I even told him to go ask the OW for all the back money he owed me. <p>Then the real truth came out. Even though the OW 'said' she would give $$ to bail him out it came with a price and the WS knew it. He really did not want to be indebted to the OW (the one thing I was grateful for was he always knew this). So I pushed him out there more. I told him he still needed to pay his son's day care, it was his responsibility and if I needed to do it legally I could actually ask and get more money leaving him less to live on. That would have put him on the streets. <p>This excercise was part of what helped my H come to his senses. Here's what else I did: <p>I asked the WS, how much his family was worth to him. I mean if he was going to sell us out, at least I was going to try and get the most for my buck!!! LOL! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] WS replied that his family was priceless. So I said $1mil? He said yes. I agreed ok, ask her for $1mil. OW had claimed to have lots of $$. WS said, OW does not have that much. Ok, drop to 100k. Still too high. Now I knew that OW and her H had refinanced their house the prior year and even knew the amount, so I asked forr that much. REmember we are 'priceless'. Now the truth started coming out. The OW was not as wealthy as she so arrogantly claimed. I was chipping away at their fantasy and finding just dirt. <p>OW's house was at one point in foreclosure and one of her vechicles was going to be repo'd. Hm.... so much for this rich ol lady pix! <p>Ok, so let's narrow it down to a measly $50k? Still too high. NOw I started in...... thought this was a rich B? WS relunctantly said no. Ok, then howz about what you actually owe $12k and add an additional $3k for day care for the rest of year so you don't get behind again. So now he would have been into the OW (pun) for at least 15k. <p>The other side to this was that I told the WS that he was selling out his family for a measly 15k for starters. The court would determine the rest. How he got his money was not my concern. How he fared out there was no longer my concern because he did not live under our roof. <p>Of course that meant that he would lose his rights to his family which would mean divorce. I was adamant about that. The more I thought about this the stronger I felt. For me that is how I handled it. <p>WS said no. Ow was ready to write the check but I said, cash or cashier's check only. Then I said, in 5 days. I don't trust either of them.
See now I was calling the shots. Neither of them liked the fact that the BS was now calling the shots. Doesn't matter what they thought at this point, I had to look out for the welfare of myself and child.

Well I never got the money [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] But the WS came home and now I have him and his bills. Hm...... was I jipped? Well our son has his dad back and now this WS is working on proving he deserves the title of H. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>It was a long and hard road. It was important for me to learn how I was inadverantly enabling the A and then put a stop to it. <p>I had to make my words mean it in my actions. It was hard. But it does get eaiser. <p>That is what MB teaches us. <p>This is just one of several stories and just in my situation. There is a lot to learn here by reading what others are going through. <p>take care,
L.<p>[ June 17, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

Orchid...<p>...true tough (though very generous) love!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

Finances have always been a tough issue throughout our entire marriage. My W never did give a s*** about money. If there's checks in the checkbook, she must have money, right? In 3 months last summer alone, I paid the bank over $900 in bank fees due to her bouncing checks. Of course, I was furious. We were always fighting about that, and I couldn't make her understand. She was like a child. But I also know that she didn't give a rats a** because she had started her A at that time. Last August, while she was still living with me as my W, she was in trouble for bad checks. Guess who paid it. The same month, she got a letter from the bank telling her that she was way behind. She wrote out a check to pay $900 of it out of our joint account. I closed the account in September and opened my own account. I told her that I closed our account and STRESSED to her that she cannot write any more checks because the account no longer exists. A month later, I received a letter from the bank telling me that I owe them money for bounced checks they paid. In November, she was in trouble again for bad checks, but I refused to pay any more money for her rediculous actions. I couldn't even if I wanted to. Now, she also told me that she hasn't paid her rent for this month... she is so screwed. I wonder how long the OM will be able to handle this. I wonder if I can deal with it if she wants to come back. Another problem is that some of her bills are going to collections, and the creditors are coming after me since we aren't divorced yet.

So, NSR, you wrote earlier "...I tried to push off my divorce for as long as I could....
...I suggest you try the same". Do you still suggest the same advice? I'm not so sure what I want to do. I mean, I love her very much, but I think she's getting what she deserves right now so she can learn the hard way. And I kinda want to hurry along this divorce so I can't be liable for her money problems. I already pay her $1000/mo for child support. I gotta say that OM is in for one heck of a surprise cuz I know he has no idea how bad she is with finances. Like I said before, I'm not going to give her any more money.

In other words, Orchid, if I tried the same thing you did w/ your WS, she'd write me a bad check. What advice does anyone have for me now? Do I want my wife back? I dunno. But how do I deal with such a W w/ no concept of money? Anyone... anyone... ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

<small>[ June 28, 2002, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]</small>

What if OM has the money to bail her out? Isn't she going to feel obligated to stay with him? But, I know it would be stupid of me to pay any more. I can't even if I want to. This is insanity!!

TJS,<p>Require cash. How she gets it is her business. <p>L.<p>[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

Have you thought about becoming the custodial parent of the younger children? I ask you this because your stbxww seems so irresponsable with money that your younger children may be living without the bennefits of the cs money you send to her every month. It even looks like you have a great shot of becoming the custodial parent due to her criminal behavior that any reasonable judge will see how it is NOT in your younger childrens best interest to have her as the custodial parent.

Yes, I'm in the process of custody of the 2 boys she took with her. but, I don't think that finances are an issue with the court, but perhaps if she is convicted of writing bad checks, that may change things all together.

Hi TJS,<p>I copied your post from the Josh's thread and thought it would be better to answer you here. <p>QUOTE]Originally posted by thejohnsmith:
<strong>Josh, you must have been an inspiration. I gave my WW the Plan B letter just tonite. I'm not sure what effects this will have on her, but I think my timing is perfect. I dropped by her house to give her the letter, and she was on the phone... I'm sure it was HIM. OM happens to be her boss. When she hung up, she told me that she had to cover for him tomorrow because his dad just had a heart attack. Now, he won't be around for a couple of days, and she'll be all by herself. I'm hoping that she will THINK, if that's in her vocabulary. <p>Something I don't understand, though. Through the past year, I have given her several cards and letters, and she has kept all of them. What does that mean? Last week, I gave her a little clipping I found in a magazine that said "Imagine... what life could have been". She hung it on her refrigerator. Also, she had made plans for her and 2 of my 3 boys to move in w/ OM at the end of this month. But last weekend she told me that she isn't so sure about that anymore. I wonder if things aren't going quite as well as she had planned. Why would she tell me this? Did I do the right thing by giving her the letter, or should I have hung in there a little longer? I thought I was so sure about this, but now I wonder. Maybe I can get someone else's opinion on this. <p>This is going to be tough...</strong>[/QUOTE]<p>Ok TJS, why your W is keeping your stuff as memorbilia yet you feel she wants to throw you out with the trash? WEll that is just what the WS do. Confusing, but true. <p>Can't explain it, just can tell you that it is common. Here's one to try on: The WS in my life showed the OW our family pix he carried in his wallet. Talk about illogic. So now the OW knew what we looked like but she could have passed me in the store and I would not have a clue. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] arrrrgh......<p>As for her testing the waters about not being sure as to the living arrangements with OM, well look at it as a test. Those Ws love to make us 'wonder' about them. In a sick way, they like it!!! Go figure. <p>So TJS, for now look at her actions more than her words. U will get a better idea. It will still be confusing but a bit more clear than listening to her words and seeing different actions. <p>TJS, learn to babble back. Not talk back just give them back some of their logic and see if they like it. For example, when she says she is hurt by your plan B letter, let her know it hurt to write it but you felt you must because of her A. <p>I told Josh that having the OM in the pix is like hugging your W with the OM in the middle. Not a good thing unless one is into that bi stuff. Anyway, then give that visual piece to them to carry around in their head. It is possible to get the WS and OP to LB each other by planting visual yucky pixs in their minds. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Just my thoughts. <p>take care,
L.

Okay, so I gave W the letter the nite before last saying that we should have no contact while she stays with the OM. Yesterday morning, she called me at work and the receptionist put her on hold while she got me. I didn't answer and left her on hold until she hung up. A few minutes later, W called back to leave a message for me that she was going to be home late and I needed to keep the boys all nite. Fine, I got the message. But on my way home from work, she called me on my cell phone to tell me the same thing.<p>This morning, W called me at work and I happened to be the one to answer the phone. She was crying and told me how she realizes that she has been living in a fantasy world and that she was beginning to wake up.<p>Now what? Do I continue to talk to her, or continue w/ Plan B?

Hi TJS,<p>Sounds like this is moving kinda fast. Can you get a phone counseling appointment with Steve or Jennifer? LEt them know you are in plan B and her current reaction. If you can't get them howz about your local MC? <p>If not, here's my 2 cents: This is her first reaction. Let her know you are still at home and would be willing to talk after she had a chance to really think it out and when she can let you know what she will do in order to be welcomed back home. Don't bend over backwards on this one. Us women have a way with tears. Sometimes they are a test and sometimes they are for real. U guys are generally not good at telling the difference. (sorry but this is true). I can't say which one your W is doing right now and I know it is probably pulling at your heart strings. <p>JL and NSR are usually good at this, let me see if we can hail them up here. <p>ok? <p>U are doing good. Don't be mean, but it is ok to let her stew a bit. Don't get tooo jumpy. <p>L.