Hi Orchid-
It's been a while since I last posted, but things seem to have changed for the better. Monday, we went to the counselor. I was a little upset because she seemed to address most of the questions to me. But, overall, I think it went fairly well. After the counseling, I gave her the EN questionnaire to fill out. Tuesday, my W invited me out for dinner and came over for a while afterwards. Wednesday, she invited me out for dinner and I declined. She came over anyway for an hour or so. We went over our EN forms w/ each other. Hers was fairly predictable, w/ affection at the top of her list. She also had honesty and conversation at the top, as well. She seemed surprised at my answers, though. So, I guess she learned a few things about me that night.

Last night, she called me at work and ask me if I wanted to go have dinner w/ her again. I told her that I was going to be late coming home from work, so I couldn't go w/ her. Later, around 10 that night, she called again. Shortly into the conversation, I asked her what she was doing... I mean as far as our M. She said that she wanted to work on our M, and she said that she loves me. We talked in length about our feelings and my hesitancy to trust her again. She understands that. She really seems to have woken up, and appears to have her head on straight for the first time in months. She asked me if I want her to quit her job right away, and told me that she would quit if I want her to. I told her that she better wait until she can find another job first. She also asked me if she can move back home, but I told her that I thought it was too soon, and that she must first prove to me that she is capable of being a good W and mother. She must earn that right. I reminded her that I went through a very difficult time over the past year that she was in her A, and it will take some time for both of us to recover. I asked her about the D, and if she was going to stop it. She said that she already talked to her attorney about doing that.

It looks like we are on the road to recovery, finally. I've been very careful to not let things get ahead of me before I'm ready. I take things one at a time, and make her show me that she does want to commit to the M. I let her call me, and I try to be the one to end the phone conversations. When she comes over, I am the one that says I need to go to bed. It's not real tough love, but I'm trying to make her prove herself to me, and let her take the initiative. I feel a strong desire to initiate sex w/ her, but I've been able to resist... it hasn't been easy, by any means.

I have a big interview Monday. They are flying me to California for a couple of nights, with motel and limo service. I'm really looking forward to it. So, I'll fill you in on how things went when I get back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Take care!

thejohnsmith,

Are you flying to SF BayArea ?. We both live here. I don't have my 2D around for this week so ... give me a ring I could play tour guide <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Good Luck on your interview <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -RH-

Hi Redhat!
I'll be flying to the LA area. My time is going to be tight while I'm there. I wish I had more time for site-seeing, but because of my job position, I can't be gone for very long. Besides, my boss doesn't know that I'm looking for a new job, so it was tough to get 2 days off.

Thanks for the offer, though. Maybe someday, if or when I get the job, I can take you up on your offer!

I'll let you know how it goes.

Hey TJS,

RH will be disappointed. He is the in the Bay Area not LA. But if you move to LA, we'll be neighbors! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have a good trip. Actually there are several MBers out in the LA area. CALI, Pepperband, and more....

L.

bump ... any update ? -RH-

tjs ... please check in ... you make me worry. Remember you are not alone and we are here to support each other.

-RH-

Hi, Redhat-
The last time I wrote, I was about to take a trip to CA for an interview. I did have that interview on July 15th. Actually I had 6 interviews with people all from the same company on the same day. It lasted from 9am to 5 pm. They all went quite well. A few days later, I was called again from the same company. They wanted to set up another day of interviews 2 weeks later, which was July 29th. So, they flew me out there again for 6 more interviews. I feel good about it. I think that they will make me an offer. I wanted to work for this company for a long time, and I really have my hopes up.

Also at the time that I last posted, I said that my wife ended her affair, and she told me that she wanted to get our family back together. I helped her move all her stuff back home on July 5th. For about a week, she was really trying. But, she started to act differently after about a week. I asked her several times if this is really what she wants. She told me it was. I remember asking her to take some time to think about it to be sure. I didn&#8217;t want to let down all my barriers and give her my heart again if she was just going to break it again. I couldn&#8217;t live through that again. The very next morning, she came over to my house, knelt down next to me on my bed (I was still sleeping) and told me that she was absolutely sure that she wanted to try to work on our marriage. I was so happy.

But, still there was something that was wrong. It wasn&#8217;t in her words, but in her actions. She said to me that she never stopped loving me. But she acted otherwise. I tried to show her the love that I have for her. We both filled out the emotional needs questionaire, and busted my butt to fill meet her important needs&#8230; #1 affection, #2 communication, #3 family commitment, #4 financial support, #5 honesty. But something was missing. I tried to talk to her about it, but she wouldn&#8217;t ever say anything.

One of the issues that I wrote as a boundary for reconciliation I wrote her in my plan B letter was that she was to get off birth control pills. I asked her if she stopped taking them, and she said she did. A few weeks ago, she was at my house doing some laundry, and I took a peek in her purse. I found her BC pills, and she had been taking them still. Later, I asked her again if she was on the pill, and she said no. I asked her if she would take her pill holder out of her purse to show me. She reluctantly did, and I showed her that she hadn&#8217;t missed a day. She denied it, and said she hadn&#8217;t been taking them for over a week. But the truth was right there staring me in my face. She was lying to me.

About a week later, I asked her to promise me that she will always tell me the truth from that moment on, regardless if it would hurt me, or if it was even trivial. She promised. Well, about 2 weeks ago, I was at her house. She wasn&#8217;t home. I put something in her wastebasket, and saw a receipt lying on top of her trash. It was a Rx receipt. In fact, it was for her BC pills. She actually bought them the very day that she made me her promise to be honest, and still swore she wasn&#8217;t on the pill. Ironically, we met at our counseling session the next morning, the day after my 2nd series of interviews. The counselor wasn&#8217;t there yet, so I reminded her of her promise to me. Then I asked her again if she was seeing OM. She got mad at me, and said no. Then I asked her if she was still on BC, and again, she denied it. I pulled the receipt out of my pocket and showed it to her. She became very angry and said it was none of my business. I didn&#8217;t talk to her the next day, but called her the following morning. I said that I was very hurt because she broke her promise to me. God, how could I ever believe her again? My trust was already at a minimum because of the past year with OM. Then she told me that she isn&#8217;t sure if she wants to try anymore. I told her that I wasn&#8217;t so sure anymore either. I mean, every time I try to be nice to her, she takes everything for granted without a thank you, and I never get anything whatsoever in return. No hugs, no kisses, no thank you, no I love you&#8230; nothing. I told her that I have no more trust for her after breaking her promise to me. I told her that I want her to stop coming around&#8230; I was going back to plan B. A few days later (last Monday), she came over to my house crying. She sat down and told me that she&#8217;s so depressed. Well, I melted, and started hugging her. I offered to let her stay the nite if she wanted, but she didn&#8217;t. We hugged for a long time, with a few kisses in between. Probably 15 or 20 minutes.

Now the next 3 nites (the past 3 nites), she has been working out-of-town until past midnite, and I&#8217;ve been keeping the boys all nite. She hasn&#8217;t called me at all the past 3 days either. But last nite, she called at 1:30 in the morning. By the time I got to the phone to see who it was, she was already at my back door. I opened the door, and asked her what she was doing. She had her hands full of laundry, and asked if she can use my washing machine. She just whisked past me and went into the laundry room. A few minutes later, she came out and we talked briefly. Then she asked me what was wrong. I asked her why she couldn&#8217;t wait until morning to do her laundry, and she said she wanted to do it now. I expressed my confusion, and she got mad and left. This morning, I called at my house from work and she was there. I asked her if she was going to apologize for last nite, and she did. Then I said that she has been acting strangely lately, and asked her if she has been seeing OM. She said no, as I expected. I told her that maybe we need to take a break from each other because I feel like she&#8217;s breaking my heart all over again. I asked her again if she has been w/ OM, and she said no. Then she told me that she wanted me to see my attorney and hurry up our divorce. I said I wanted to talk to her before I do because she never will sit down and tell me what she&#8217;s thinking. She agreed. So, tonite, she came over. She told me that she wants our divorce to get over, and she says she &#8220;can&#8217;t do this&#8221;. I asked her to explain, and she said she doesn&#8217;t love me, she feels uncomfortable around me (not because anything I do), and she just wants to make me a part of her past.

I told her that I will go to my attorney tomorrow. I also asked her if she&#8217;s absolutely sure that she wants us to end our relationship forever, and never see each other again. She said yes. I tried one more time to say to her that we can take some time away from each other to think things over, and she said no. She is finished. I asked her if she is still confused, and she said no. I also asked her if she was still going to see the counselor, and she has an appointment this Wed. so, I told her that I know that one day she is going to change her mind. But until that day, I told her that I cannot help her any longer. No money, no laundry&#8230; nothing. I said I hope she knows what she&#8217;s doing. I have her a hug, I gave her a kiss, and I said good-bye.

Now, I know that she&#8217;s going to court two times soon because she is being sued for bills she didn&#8217;t pay&#8230; over $1000. I also know that she lost her drivers license for not appearing in court for a traffic violation, but she continues to drive. I also know that the reason why she&#8217;s been showering at my house was because her gas has been turned off for non-payment, and she will need to put down $150 to get it turned back on again. and I also know that she hasn&#8217;t made a rent payment since last May. And I know that she expected me to help her pay for some of these things, although she never asked me. In other words, she&#8217;s in deep.

She also knows that I may be offered that job in CA soon, and if offered, I&#8217;m taking it. She told me a couple of weeks ago that she was going to move out there if I go so I can see my boys, and she can see her S that&#8217;s with me. But she has since then realized that she could never afford to move to CA. But, she has no plan on how we are suppose to see our kids if I move.

I&#8217;m sorry to write such a long story. But, I&#8217;m just so confused. I&#8217;m too afraid to trust her again, but I love her so dearly. Redhat, you always give such good advice. What would you say to me now? I love my wife very much, and I know that if she could commit herself to trying in our relationship, everything will fall into place. But I need to see that commitment before I&#8217;m willing to let down my barriers. I&#8217;m in such a deep dilemma. I really don&#8217;t think she knows how she feels. I truly believe she is depressed and is feeling sorry for herself. I really believe that in a few days, she&#8217;ll start calling me again. what should I do then? Our 11 year anniversary is on the 17th of this month. Should I get her some flowers, a card, offer dinner&#8230; or should I ignore it?

Wow, I really thought everything was going to work out great. It&#8217;s so hard for me to understand how she can swing emotionally so quickly within a short period of time from wanting to try, to wanting to never see me again. Finally, I really think that her relationship w/ OM is over for reasons that I&#8217;m not going to get into right now. But, OM is her boss and she must see him at work occasionally. She also claims that she&#8217;s on BC because it helps her complexion. Hmmmm&#8230; I question that one.

Can you lend me your take on this? I'm afraid that maybe this time is the last. I pray a lot...

TJS

tjs ...

This is my 2¢. You take your W too early ... a false recovery ... Orchid could help you out in that department. IMVHO, she is still in contact w/ OM & A is still going ... NC is a big requirement, she fell again to OM. You have to do "tough love" ... don't cater to her. You are doing good ... what you need to do is make sure that your refusal to help is to protect you not to punish her. I think she got the message. You have to still tell her that you still beleive that both of you could rebuild if she is willing and that there are many had been though this path and have a happy recovery. All she needs to do it work on M under MB principal.

IMVHO, you are not ready for plan B.

Tell her if she wants Dv she could file it herself ... all she needs to do is fill in a form and filed it. Don't need a lawyer unless there is disagreement between the two of you. Tell her you don't have time to do it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

You have to put the boundry ... if quit working to get away and move out to CA to rebuild your M ... so be it. It might be God's will to open you another door ... She could be part of it if she choose to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>...so, I told her that I know that one day she is going to change her mind. But until that day, I told her that I cannot help her any longer. No money, no laundry&#8230; nothing. I said I hope she knows what she&#8217;s doing. I have her a hug, I gave her a kiss, and I said good-bye. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I really believe that in a few days, she&#8217;ll start calling me again. what should I do then? Our 11 year anniversary is on the 17th of this month. Should I get her some flowers, a card, offer dinner&#8230; or should I ignore it?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do it ... if she ask you tell her that she is still your W until Dv and this might be your last anniv. you want to make it special and something that you could remember ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Wow, I really thought everything was going to work out great. It&#8217;s so hard for me to understand how she can swing emotionally so quickly within a short period of time from wanting to try, to wanting to never see me again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Easy, false recovery since OM is back in the picture again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Finally, I really think that her relationship w/ OM is over for reasons that I&#8217;m not going to get into right now. But, OM is her boss and she must see him at work occasionally. She also claims that she&#8217;s on BC because it helps her complexion. Hmmmm&#8230; I question that one.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think so ... A is not ending or just got started again ... as part of working on M ... WW has to quit. Move to CA, away from this.

tjs, you are underestimating yourself. You are tougher than what you think. You could do tough love ...

One advice, any info. from snooping you should not use it against your W. It is a way to monitor your relationship progress ... As painful discovery as it is, you should sit back and regroup. You should concentrate on fillin her ENs and use snooping to monitor your progress. You could let her know as part of RH when you are way into recovery.

-RH-

TJS,

Good to hear from you but sorry it is with false recovery incidents. Yea your W is babbling again. Contact with OM? Very likely.

BC for complexion issues? Yes it is possible (see the commericals on TV?) but since her attitude matches the A attitude than the zit attitude, the BC could be for the PA stuff. Ouch! I know that hurt to hear. Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As for your move to another job? Well based on her current status, can you get custody of the children, then move? It will be hard but it could be done. The fact that she has languished in her bills and the OM is her boss? Hm.... doesn't say much of what he is paying her or else the calculator in her brain is broken and the fact that she still has blank checks does NOT mean she has an endless supply of money in the bank.

You should not allow her to waltz into your home to do anything. Children related is one thing. Personal laundry is another. So she doesn't have a place to wash her clothes? There is always the kitchen sink. Let the OM meet all her needs.

She is using you and your home to meet her needs. If you are in plan B or need to be then cut off all unneccesary contact with her. Limit it to specific important items. Stick to it. When she cries, let her know that right now you are in too much pain to deal with her tears. She choose to be out there, then that is where she needs to fix it.

My WS moved out also. Then claimed he did not have a place to wash his clothes. Last time I checked there were a lot of laundry mats all around town. He said he did not want to put his clothes in a washer that was not clean. Hm..... I told him that then he needed to find another house that would let him use theirs because I don't want my washer to be used by someone who was not clean either. Hm...... babbled back and he left.

I stood my ground and it was what was needed for us at the time. Even when the WS came home he said the fact that I previously took him back made it seem like it was too easy to take advantage of me. He knew it was wrong but just way tooo tempting.

Don't let your W do that to you and your family.

L.

There is also another issue that you have probably not faced is that would you trust a person like her with your children's financial future if you were to die tomorrow?

My multiple A loving xWW helped yours truly get in debt to the tune of $20,000.00. I accept total responsability for that debt and thankfully I was able to pay it all back thanks to the timely selling of some stocks that went high during the bullish market of the late 90's. I was lucky but I swore that I would never again let myself be influenced into getting in such a financial hole.

You need to think about how you can provide for your childrens financial future that does not depend on such an inmature and financially irresponsable person like your WW.

<small>[ August 11, 2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I've been too worn out to post lately. I just feel really drained. Coffeeguy has a point that I've been thinking about for some time. I am going to my attorney tomorrow to finalize the paperwork. This way, I can add all the necessary stipulations, such as not being responsible for her debts as of our separation date, and no men in her house w/ the kids after 10pm. Ironically, I will do this paperwork the day before my 11th anniversary.

I don't think I will invite WW to dinner. I don't have anything to celebrate. I'm just reminded about my anniversary last year... our "special" 10th. I was low on cash (you guessed it... WW put more financial burdens on me), so I sold one of my favorite antique clocks (I have a weakness for old clocks). Even though she told me she wanted a D a couple of weeks earlier, I still bought her a card, flowers, and took her out to dinner & drinks. What a crappy nite that was. Her thoughts were about OM all nite... not that she talked about him, but the fact she didn't talk much at all. The next nite she didn't come home.

I'm just really pi$$ed off right now. Other things have come to my attention lately that I just don't feel like getting into. But I'll say this... I'm so SICK & TIRED of listening to her LIES, LIES, LIES!!! She can't say a single word of truth to me if her life depended on it! And, I am just reached my rope's end. Even tonite, just 30 minutes ago, she waltzed into my house and asked me if I can watch the boys while she goes to work for a few hours at another store 90 miles away. Geeeeez... c'mon... do I look like an idiot? It's almost 11pm! What am I supposed to say to that? My kids are standing there right in front of me. I want to give her the tongue lashing like she's never heard before, but instead, I smile and say "sure". It just aches to watch her walk away, knowing where she's going. Weeeellll.... I can't do this anymore. No one should put up w/ this kind of selfish, inconsiderate, disrespectful, irresponsible pile of heaping trash. How could anyone ever want to be with such a person? Does someone's love ever lift above the crap and take a back seat, just hoping that their cheating, lying spouse MIGHT want to come back if the other relationship doesn't suit their liking.

Yup... I'm mad as h@ll right now. Just knowing that I've been here for that tramp for over a year now, busting my butt trying to pry my W from another man's arms. To be so completely disregarded without a second thought. Nearly unimaginable if I hadn't experienced this with my own eyes.

Well, hope my W's anniversary day goes as miserably as I feel... if she even remembers.

Sorry to hear about the latest development TJS.

You are doing the correct thing in going to your attorney. You and your children need order and not the chaos from your WW whose maturity level is probably lower than your youngest one.

One of the wisest indiviudals in our happy group is Orchid. She did not let her WH return until he could prove himself worthy of returning to her and the children. If her H was truly motivated to want to come back to her, he would have to demonstrate with ACTIONS, and so he did and now they are doing a great recovery. But in Orchid's case it seems that she was able to emotionally detach from her H and accept the very high likelihood that her H was only paying lip service and that the most likely outcome would be divorce.

If your WW came to you tomorrow, begging and pleading to you to please give her another chance, and you were inclined to do so, then it would be wise to consider the strategy that Orchid used to weed out the seriousness, or lack thereoff, of her WH words. Setting the bar high for your WW to jump will show you IF she truly means it when she says she wants to stay married to you.

The more time I am here reading about other people's situations, the more it's becoming clear to me that in those cases where the WS has come out of the fog and wants to work on the marriage it was in large part because the BS had finally had enough and was finally ready to move on. Lo and behold the WS suddenly has a change of heart. It may be due to the fact that they will no longer have the financial and emotional support that they took for granted and are scared of finding him/herself alone. But the problem is that BS finds him/herself giving the WS another chance without having had the WS prove that they mean what they say, and thus when the panic finally goes away for the WS, him/her goes back to the same old WS games of lying and cheating to get their fix of the OP and all the while the BS is once again screwed by the WS. This 'rollercoaster' ride eventually kills any love the BS may have left over for the WS, and will eventually drive him/her to terminate the M.

Sorry for the rant TJS but I hope that at the very least it is thought provoking.

Hey, Coffeeguy, you can rant whenever you want. I think you and I think alike. I agree about the cycle with WS behavior. I guess I know it all too well. But I thought I was doing a good job. However, I can't say that I actually accepted her back. What really happened was that WW simply overstepped the boundaries I set, and I allowed it to happen. Either way, it's my misjudgment. But there is a difference between "accepting" and "allowing". I let her start using me subtly. I wanted things to work out so bad that I let it happen. It seemed trivial to me to help her out with $20 or $40 here and there, let her use my washer and dryer, let her come into my house when I wasn't there... she seemed so sincere in trying. And I really think that she DID intend to work on our relationship. Her words and actions were genuine... for about a week or so. We were caught in a Catch-22. In order for any chance for her to find feelings for me again, she must never see OM again. But, I wasn't willing to simply let her come and live with me again. I feel that would be certain destruction. But, I live in a small town, and there are no other jobs that she can get, Particularly since she makes better than average income for this town. In order for her to pay bills (which she doesn't do very well), she needs to work. So, what are the options? Let her move in with me right away (taking her back too soon), pay her bills for her so she can quit her job (I don't make enough money even if I wanted to do that), or she continues to work at her current job w/ OM and just hope that things won't flare up again. There is no scenario that will work. It was doomed from the start. So, naturally, her attraction for OM was too great and she gave in. Anyone could see that coming, but it was unavoidable. She still denies that she's seeing him, but I believe otherwise.

I don't understand, though, why she insists on hiding her A any longer. What does she gain from lying anymore? Even if she isn't having the A, I have chose to continue finalizing our D papers to protect myself from her financial destruction landing in my lap. God, I know exactly what is going to happen. I'm going to get a new job out of the state, and without her commitment, I'm going to leave her behind. In a few weeks or months, she's going to realize that I really am gone out of her life. I know she's going to come out of her fog again and realize the mistakes she made, and want to move in with me. But, I'm not willing to take such a risk. Wouldn't it be too soon to take her back? But if I don't, how can we ever work on our relationship long distance? And, besides, when I'm gone and on my way to self-recovery, I'm too afraid of moving her where I am for fear she will just change her mind again. It's another no-win situation. I could pull my hair out until it's gone thinking about all this. Something that I've been working on for over a year will probably never materialize. That's a big pill to swallow.

My other mistake is that I thought I was maintaining a barrier when she was "trying". I was being so careful with my emotions. But, I was mistaken. The thrill of recovery manifesting at last after such a long time was too much. I DID let emotions run amok without me realizing it. I was hoping beyond hope that our marriage was going to be delivered. Now, I am back emotionally where I was months ago. Geeeez, will this ever end? I am in such turmoil all over again. I was at a point where I was able to turn my back on her and her actions. It didn't bother me much when she was gone all nite. Now I find myself wondering if she's calling OM on the phone late at nite, or if she's really going to work or to OM's house. This is soooooo screwed up! Why am I too weak to walk away from her abuse? I had prepared arduously to separate emotionally... then she sucked me back in again with her false recovery. I am torn apart with misery and love, fear and hope, anger and understanding, resentment and forgiveness.

Oh... but I did do something right today that I feel proud of. Yesterday was our 11th anniversary. I didn't plan on doing anything for it, and I hadn't asked her out. So she came over and asked me if I could watch the boys so she could "go out" to a party. I reminded her that this will be our last anniversary that we will ever have. She said she didn't think about that, but reminded me that I didn't offer to take her out. She has a way of humbling me, and I agreed to letting the boys spend the nite. But, I just know that she spent the nite at OM's house, and it really made me angry. Why would she go to a party and not come home until the next day? So, this morning she came over around noon. She said hi, and then she asked me if it would be okay if she washed a load of laundry. I said no, it wouldn't be okay. Then she asked if she can take a shower (her gas is shut off at her house). I said no. she just stood there and stared at me. I said that I was tired of her taking advantage of me, and I'm not going to let her continue doing so. She looked stunned, babbled a little (as Orchid would say), took the boys and went home. About a half an hour later, I called her. I took Redhat's advice and told her that I wasn't doing it because I wanted to be cruel, but because I was protecting myself by not allowing her to use me any longer. I did find it amusing that she was getting ready to take a cold bath when I called. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But, it was very difficult for me to turn down her laundry request even though I know I was doing the right thing. Something puzzles me, though. When we were talking on the phone, she told me she was going to be busy today with this and that, and she was going to the laundromat. Now, before her false recovery, she took her laundry to OM's house. So, why would she go to the laundromat, especially since I know she doesn't have much money. My S confirmed her story later when he called me. She's been doing strange things like that for a month or so. I wonder if she really is trying to throw me off guard, or what?

But my biggest question is this... should I really continue doing this "tough love" even though we will soon be legally divorced, or is it time for me to turn my back and walk away? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Well, I guess I feel a somewhat better. Maybe now I can get some sleep... maybe.

TJS

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]</small>

Hey TJS, I'm glad that you still show signs of fogging up mirrors <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If your W had any interest in the M, the anniversary date would have been a big deal to her and would have at least given you a card expressing love, but instead she asks to leave the boys with you and probably go out partying with OM.

I do beleive in MB but even Harley acknowledges that there are M's that should not be saved where there is violence and addictions that are beyond the scope of MB to handle. In your case it seems that you W's financial irresponsability has caused serious economic hardship for you and your family and that is totally unacceptable behavior for any adult that is married with children.

It is obvious that you still care a lot for her but accept the truth that at the present time she is more of a liability than an asset, and thus are in the process of divorcing her. Often times a divorce can force an inmature person to get his/her s*** together. I hope this is the case with your stbxw because she will always be the mother of your children, and what happens to her will certainly affect them.

As far as your last question is concerned, I vote for you to turn and walk away.

<small>[ August 19, 2002, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Going back and reading my last post tells me that I need to write when I'm more awake. I could have trimmed it down to about 2 paragraphs. Sorry, guys... I was a little (actually a lot) upset when I wrote it.

Anyway, I wanted to tell Redhat that I have not disregarded his advice. I still think I need to continue finish off my divorce for my own financial safety. My attorney won't be in his office until tomorrow. I can talk to him a bit more as to what I can do to protect myself. Part of the problem is that 2 of WW's big bills she is being sued for are a medical and dental bill for my kids. I would have preferred to have her tell me about these things before they become so far behind. I will try to pay half of the amount.

But, RH, I think you are still right about me being able to do tough love. Sometimes I get overwhelmed and think I can never make it. But, to be honest, I really think that we will be parting ways soon.

Gotta go to work now.

Today I called my attorney. I have an appointment w/ him tomorrow. I just don't know what to do. I know I probably should get the final papers ready to sign, but it hurts really bad thinking about it all. I keep thinking about what Redhat told me... you can do tough love... let her go to her attorney if she wants the divorce. She asked me again tonite if I went to my attorney. She really wants this D done with.

I just have some really huge emotional swings. Right now, it's a really bad one. I just don't understand this much. It looks to me like she really, really wants to put an end to this. She keeps telling me to have my attorney write up the final papers and make a court date for the D.

I think I have a good shot at getting that job in CA. What do I do then? If I tell WW that she can come with me so we can start a new life and work on our marriage, I know it would be too soon. But, if she doesn't come out with me, I'm afraid I must put her in my past and never look back. How could I ever continue this tough love?

What are my chances right now? I mean, she almost had a change of heart just over a month ago. I played it very calmly... I thought I worked it very well. Since I'm almost certain that she's w/ OM again, how can I make this tough love work?

My soul is just being torn apart piece by piece. I don't feel strong enough to work on this anymore. I love my W so much. But I just have no energy anymore. Yet, this is all I can think about. Where can I find strength?

We talked briefly tonite on the phone. I told her that I would really like to hear her tell me something... anything. I just hate getting nothing from her. So, she told me that tomorrow nite we can talk. I've been waiting so long to hear her tell me her thoughts, even if they are cloudy. But I'm also afraid that I'm not strong enough to hear her tell me things that I know are going to hurt me to hear.

I have such a heavy heart tonite. I hope I can sleep.

TJS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Today I called my attorney. I have an appointment w/ him tomorrow. I just don't know what to do. I know I probably should get the final papers ready to sign, but it hurts really bad thinking about it all. I keep thinking about what Redhat told me... you can do tough love... let her go to her attorney if she wants the divorce. She asked me again tonite if I went to my attorney. She really wants this D done with.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TJS ... it is your choice. I understand well when you talk about financial matter, I think if my WW didn't file first I will file for it. It is purely financial decision. I have to look after what could be salvage after tornado A passed through. By pushing financial settlement early in the process, I move into my house last week <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... Looking back, I could stall the Dv and so on but I do what I have to ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I just have some really huge emotional swings. Right now, it's a really bad one. I just don't understand this much. It looks to me like she really, really wants to put an end to this. She keeps telling me to have my attorney write up the final papers and make a court date for the D.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most WS/OP don't have a plan ... they just day dream what life could be. This is my 2¢; WW thought life is better w/o you and Dv will bring some $$. WW will blow the money away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I think I have a good shot at getting that job in CA. What do I do then? If I tell WW that she can come with me so we can start a new life and work on our marriage, I know it would be too soon. But, if she doesn't come out with me, I'm afraid I must put her in my past and never look back. How could I ever continue this tough love?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly what you have to do in tough love ... you set the boundry and let WW has the burden to choose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What are my chances right now? I mean, she almost had a change of heart just over a month ago. I played it very calmly... I thought I worked it very well. Since I'm almost certain that she's w/ OM again, how can I make this tough love work? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you have a kid and don't know any better, you should "give" and "help" them understand. After they understood the matter but they keep doing it ... you better run for the hill (Dv) or set the boundry and be strong about it. Either way you are the only one could make that choice ... and no one will judge you for any decision that you make. You stay so far in this M, that is more than anything that your WW could ask for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>My soul is just being torn apart piece by piece. I don't feel strong enough to work on this anymore. I love my W so much. But I just have no energy anymore. Yet, this is all I can think about. Where can I find strength? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NC will help you out ... this is what plan B all about. However it is one way street so you better take a break from all of this and think hard ... look at my sig ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>We talked briefly tonite on the phone. I told her that I would really like to hear her tell me something... anything. I just hate getting nothing from her. So, she told me that tomorrow nite we can talk. I've been waiting so long to hear her tell me her thoughts, even if they are cloudy. But I'm also afraid that I'm not strong enough to hear her tell me things that I know are going to hurt me to hear.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You sound like burned out ... take a break from her for few days w/o contact. Remember don't expect nothing from WW ...

-RH-

I was so disheartened last nite when I posted. Thank you so much for your advice, Redhat. But, tonite ended in a terrible climax. It just left me devastated and I&#8217;m in even worse shape than before.

I have been asking her to tell me what has happened... why did she have the change in heart. If she isn't seeing OM, then what caused this? She never tells me anything other that she knows that she doesn't love me and will never love me. I remind her of the things she said to me just a month and a half ago. She said that she loves me and never did stop loving me. We talked about renewing our vows when we get back on track. She says its because she wanted to try so she can be with her son that lives with me now. She had to discredit all the good things she said to me.

She came over tonite when she got off from work. She was kinda cold to me. She says she wants to talk to me about finalizing the divorce papers. I told her some things that I want to put in the divorce as stipulations. One of them was that neither one of us can have an adult of the opposite sex be in the house between 10pm and 8am when the kids are present. She just looked at me but didn't say anything.

I bought her a card today for some reason. I wrote things in it about looking in the future and forgeting about the hard times in the past. I wrote that I love her "with all my breath and body, mind and soul". When she read it, her eyes swelled up with tears. She asked me why I gave it to her and I said I just wanted to. I said that everything failed in her attempt at reconciliation because she never stopped the communication w/ OM. She continued to deny seeing him. I didn't press the issue. I just told her that I would like to spend next weekend away from here, just the 2 of us so we can get away from everything for a while and breathe. She said she didn't want to. I said some things about how smart she is, but how foolish here decisions are. I know... LBing. Anyway she went home and left the boys here to eat dinner.

A while later, she called me to say that "there is no way in h3ll" that she is going to sign any papers that say no one after 10pm and 8am. I asked why not. I said that I have to adhere to it, too. And when she gets remarried, then it no longer will be in effect. She said that she is never getting married again and that I'm trying to control her. I said that it's not true, but I just don't want my children exposed to a sexual relationship. She said that she will fight me for that in court. I asked her why is it such a big issue if she's not seeing anyone, and she replied again that I'm trying to control her. Then she hung up on me. A while later, I tried calling her back. The phone was busy, and was busy for 15 minutes or so. So, I walked down to her house - she just lives a few houses down from me. I know... bad idea. But, my emotions got the best of me. She answered the door, and she was still on the phone. I went in and she says to the person on the phone "Well, [her sister's name], I gotta call you back". I said that I couldn't get ahold of her by phone because it was busy for so long that I ended up walking down. She informed me that she was talking to her sister. Yeah, right. Anyway, I said that she can't fight me in court about the after-hours visitors because it is something that I have the right to put in the divorce stipulations. She started yelling at me and said that I was trying to control her. I said that I wasn't, and I have to abide by it too. She told me to leave. I went to the door, and paused. I turned around should have left then, but said "Why are you treating me this way? What did I ever do to deserve this kind of treatment?" She told me to get out. I opened the door and said "All I ever wanted was for my family to be back together. All I ever wanted was for my wife to come back. My family is the most important thing in my life, and I can't just walk away and let my kids go. I value my family and my marriage too much to give up like that. I love my kids and I love you. I can't bear the thought of not being able to see my boys when I want to." I was in tears by then. She said please leave. So, I left.

Okay, a lot of LBing, and I also know that everything I said was unheard. My emotions got the best of me, and I'm sure I did an awful lot of damage. But, I couldn't help it. I've been bottling things up for so long... it just finally exploded. As I walked home, I thought to myself... "that didn't go as well as I had hoped". As soon as I got home, she called. I answered the phone and she asked if the boys are done eating yet. I said that I'll send them home when they get done. Then I said that I was sorry for my outburst. I am very emotional right now, and it hurts me very much to think that I will live my life away from my boys, and they won't be able to be with their dad every day. I told her that because I think I will be offered a job far from here, and I may accept. I said that maybe I can find a job somewhere closer. Then I said I'd let her go.

Ironically, my brother-in-law called a while later... the husband of the sister my W was supposed to have been talking to earlier. I asked him if my W had called, and he said that they just got home. Obviously, my W told me yet another lie, as I expected.

Okay, now what do I do. I just LBed her to death and she doesn&#8217;t even want to talk to me now. All she wants me to do is finish the stipulations for the D and make a court date. Just 6 weeks ago, we were working on our marriage&#8230; now we&#8217;re working on the divorce. This is NUTS! Just last week, she wanted to go to CA with me if I get offered the job. She&#8217;s sliding fast right back into her dream-world. And she&#8217;s taking my kids with her. Oh, it just tears me apart. How can I take a job so far away from my boys? There are everything to me! If I try to get custody and win, then I&#8217;m forced to stay in the state unless she gives me permission to take them&#8230; and there is no way she would do that. Even if she knew it would be better for them, she would say no just out of spite. I can go back to court to try to convince the court that it&#8217;s in their best interest for me to take them to another state, but I would have to wait for another court date. No company in the world is going to hold a job for me that long. My choices are either pursue a career, or pursue my kids. There is no job anywhere that is worth giving up my kids. She is literally ruining my life!

I can&#8217;t believe this is happening to me. What do I do? It&#8217;s obvious to me that plan A isn&#8217;t even going to touch this. Not even &#8220;tough love&#8221;, I don&#8217;t think. Plan B is the only way&#8230; I don&#8217;t see any other way. God, yes, I love my wife. But I can&#8217;t deal with this any longer. In the past 2 months she&#8217;s whipped me around like a dog with a chew toy.

I hope someone is out there tonite. I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m gonna be getting much sleep, and I sure would like to hear from someone. I just feel more alone that I ever have in this whole year of her A. And I have a decision that&#8217;s such a burden. It&#8217;s awfully heavy&#8230;

Okay, Redhat, Coffeguy, and Orchid... I hope at least one of you reads this. I just read the Torizo thread that RH suggested to me a while back. Yes, it does give me hope, somewhat. But after all my LBing tonite, I wonder... I know I threw her far away from me tonite, right into OM's arms. And to make it worse, she's going to see him at work tomorrow... all day long. I just hope I can think of something so she can think about it all day. Maybe I better not... I'd probably make things worse that it already is.

Anyway, Torizo's posts made me wonder... should I try plan A again if I feel like I have enough strength? If I can find hope, I'm strong enough to do anything. Or do you still suggest tough love?

I have learned much through MB, and I know that I should not be telling her "I love you" constantly. First of all, I don't think she hears me any more when I say it. She used to say "I know" whenever I told her that I love her. But the past couple of days, she doesn't say anything. I tell you, OM is telling her what to do and say, and she's acting like a puppet on a string.

Secondly, I know that I look pathetic if I keep crawling around saying "I love you". I know I need to let her know that I love her, but I also need to gain some respect. Respect is the hard part. She has no respect for me, and no consideration.

Well, Reading Torizo's story makes me feel quite a bit better. I actually feel tired right now. I think I'm going to go to bed soon. I just hope I can sleep.

TJS,

I hear your pain ... my WW brought my 2 D around OM & his "family" last week and what do I do ? .... nothing. Doing nothing is the hardest part that BS has to learn. I try to be the best dad for my 2 D and whatever my WW does to her R w/ my 2 D is her problem. My 2 D hated ... I just sit back and watch. My 2 D starts comparing dad .vs. Mom and worst ... dad .vs. OM. I know I will win, I just have to focus on 2 D nad my R w/ them. I am basically learning how to care & protect my R w/ my 2 D and be my princesses. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

tjs, you should learn by now that when BS LB'ed ... WS runs to OP ! and push them closer ... i.e something to talk about !!!. It is very hard to talk back to the fog, so far I only see Orchid could do that. Also you either in plan A or plan B ... nothing in between. You could go back from plan B to plan A only under MB guidance ... from the pro or carefully "ping'n" the WS. Again this is the reason why when plan B requires NC and be broken if and only if WS is willing to work on M.

This is my 2¢. Major LB is not the end of the world ... it just another one of those bad day. It will pass and you move on. About the kids, she can't decide ... let the court decides !. You might end up having the kids stays w/ you to go to CA. When WS is in deep fog, you either have to ride it out or you hit the break on the 'coaster. At this point whne she knew your intention and fully aware about your changes ... and still reject your plan A ... you either go back to plan B (solid ones) or just do what Orchid did ... every time WS waffled to her she tighten the boundry and told WS to file and go to OP ! if the grass is greener. The first one is prefferable in MB and the later one is actually "tough love" ... a very dangerous move, you could only use it if OP is not ready to take WS ... otherwise is the end of your M.

No one could fault you on which path you want to travel. Just make sure that you be darn sure lokking back 10 years from now you could still say "I did by best and I would do it the same way w/ the information that I have at that moment"

-RH-