Her A is ending... - Marriage Builders® Forums

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Okay, guys... I felt like I needed to post this since I can't sleep anyway. There was someone knocking on my door this morning at 4:30. It was my W. She asked me if we can talk. I wasn't quite awake yet, but I let her in. She told me that she wants to end this A w/ OM, and she's is going to get all her things at OMs house Friday. She took all her things (a garage-full of stuff) over there about 2 months ago cuz she was going to move in w/ OM. She's afraid, now, that if he finds out before she gets her things, he won't let her take it. She wants to end her A, but I think she's actually afraid... I mean physically afraid of this guy. She told me that she doesn't like being around him, and he doesn't want her to spend any time w/ our oldest S... the one that lives w/ me. He's become possessive and wants her to account for every minute she's not w/ him. I know she's been thinking about this for a while. She's been so stressed lately, and now I know why. She said she just want to get this over and behind her. She's finally figured out what a gem she picked to replace me.

So, let's say she does end her A. But, he's her boss. She knows she's going to have to quit her job, but then what? Should I let her move back in w/ me? I think she's about to be evicted because she hasn't paid her rent for 2 months. And I think that most of her bills are late, too. Now, I'm happy as a lark that she's finally decided to end her A... but now what? From what she tells me about this guy, he may not leave her alone. I kinda expect to see him show up here at my house, which I would look forward to. But, how do I proceed from here? Should I help her get her things from his house? My W wants to go when he's not there, which will be Friday.

I'm certainly going to let my kids live w/ me. But what about her? Do I let her come back and start working on recovery? What about all her financial problems she's caused for herself? I'm afraid that some of that is going to fall back on me anyway... some already has.

I know I have to be very careful right now. What now... ?

theJS,
My advice is to go forward cautiously. I would sit her down to get an idea to how she really feels. Is she REALLY ready to stop the A 100%; how is SHE going to manage her debts; what is she going to do to contribute to recovery?
I think you need to receive some type of assurances from her that she is ready to do this, otherwise she'll just be taking advantage of you. Draw the boundaries and let her know what they are (concretely), and then you won't get burned. But also be the warm, understanding, caring guy that you are, and get started on the rebuilding process.

Just some thoughts from the other side of the Atlantic...

Sweden

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Original post by thejohnsmith:
She's finally figured out what a gem she picked to replace me.
<hr /></blockquote>That is usually the case with most WS's. They are so desperate that even the town drunk has a good shot at them.

I echo Sweden's advice TJS.

As far as her beign afraid of OM who is her boss, she should know that he could be hit with a sexual harassment charge if he tries to force her to continue with the relationship. If she is agreeable, you could talk to OM and let him know that both you and your W, will slap him with a sexual harassment lawsuit if he doesn't cease and desist. That should deflate any power trip he might have over your W. Also if she is truly serious that the A is over between her and OM have her writte a no contact letter signed, notarized, and sent via registered mail to OM.

You should be concerned that her debts will become another financial burden on your already stressed financial situation. Tell her that you will not take on her financial mistakes and that she has to be responsable for paying them off before there is any possibility of marital recovery.

Consider the idea of renting a storage facility for all the stuff she took when she moved out. The monthly rates are usually less than $100.00 a month. I suggest this because a lot of WS's have a tendency to move out, move in, and again move out, which causes a lot of stress on the BS and children. If in the near future she and OM reignite their A, it will be very traumatic for you and the kids to see her move all her stuff out once more. On the other hand, if the only things she has to move out are her clothes, it will be not only a faster move out but also a less traumatic one for you and your kids.

I know you are happy but don't let your happiness get the best of you. You must use probationary tactics if you do decide to let her move back in with you and your kids.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[ July 03, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]

tjs,

Follow MB to end A ... call OM yourself to tell him that you could filed a harasment. Get time off from work for your W ... even get a doctor note to get her into short term disabilities ... should not be dificult considering her state of mind.

About trust and recovery ... this is the time of lay it on the table ... sit her down and let her know your worries and afraid of getting hurt again. Let her explain herself ..... do not LB .... The road to recovery is very narrow, watch out for withdrawal, Torizo's story is very gut wrenching, let me know if you need a link.

Since she know already about MB ... get her to read few posts, including a letter from WW and a withdrawal post. Good job tjs ... this is the very reason I try to make you to keep the communication line open.

Pray & praise HIM ... there is no higher console than HIM. God Bless you -RH-

Sweden-
Thanks for your pieces of advice. I plan to follow through with every one of them. Are you really in Sweden?
___________________________________________

Coffeeguy-
Hey, thanks for being around and offering your advice at at times when I really needed it. It seems like I can always count on you.

I'll keep you posted on things as they develop.
____________________________________________

Redhat-
I suppose I ought to thank you for being the one that seems to always encourage a positive attitude. I was so close to walking, it wasn't funny. I do know that I still need to be extremely careful. I mean, she's been lying to me for a year now, and she may be lying to me now about this whole thing being over. I think it could be a new scheme the she and OM thought up to throw me a curve. I have gotten much stronger over the past couple of weeks, and I think I'll be ready for whatever comes my way.

I am unaware of Torizo's story. So, yes, I would like a link. Could you also recommend a good withdrawal post off the top of your head? If not, I'm sure I can find something.

Thanks again, RH.

tjs,

Here is Torizo saga ... a dear freind. His W kept contact during withdrawal and even cried about OM ... his love & strong boundries finally wins her heart.

Check under my sig ... SKM's cronicle is good to read including trueheart's letter ... Print trueheart letter and read it together w/ you W. BTW you could drop Wayward out from WW for now until you could prove it otherwise.

If you could afford it ... call Jennifer or Steve don't short change your M.

Good Luck -RH-

Hi, redhat-
It's always good to hear from you. It would be nice to hear from Orchid right now. She always has such good advice. I'm sure she'll eventually catch up w/ me.

My W and I have a counselling session Monday here where I live w/ whom I believe to be a wonderful counselor. My oldest S has been going to her for a couple of months, as well as my W. She has helped both of them quite a bit.

I do have reservations about this whole thing. First of all, my W has decided that she doesn't want to continue her A. But, she isn't ready to commit to rebuilding our M. I think she's using me as a crutch to help her break off her A. She says she just wants to start as friends, spend time together, and let things develop from there. That worries me since she isn't willing to commit to our M. She wants me to rent a movie tonite and watch it w/ her tonite. I think that my best plan of action is to let her be alone for a few days so she can figure out a few things. I'm not willing to walk into a relationship of any kind without some kind of assurance from her... something that I'm not getting from her yet.

The fact that she wants to spend time w/ me is nice. But I need something more than that. I need her to say to me that she's ready and willing to begin recovery. Maybe she needs me to help her through her withdrawal from OM, and once she's made it through that, she may not need me around anymore.

Do you agree w/ me?

tjs,

In MB, there is only plan A or plan B no in between. In M there is no "uncomitted" ... either you fully commit or you are on the way out. However, give her space and draw up your boundries. If you take her w/o NO COMMITMENT to work on MB you are asking for trouble ... ORCHID ... WHERE ARE YOU ???. She did this many times ... she could give you better advice. I agree with you but .... IMVHO ... DO NOTHING !. You are back in plan A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Now you take it from there ... enjoy your W, never bring up OM or A or R ... just pretend it never happens. One wise lady once told me ... "Good things come to those who wait, and the best is yet to come" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . John, be gentle, WS/BS/OP alike get hurt in this A, what you give to her will strengthen her love for you ...

Observe and observe ... look at her action not her words !. Enjoy tonight's movie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ... The next few days is critical and you 've decide & evaluate. You know her more than any of us here. You have two choices, go back to plan A and hope you get some response back this time or use tough love .... I 've prayed she does the right thing for the sake of your recovery & hers.

Amen -RH-

My ears are burning!!!! RH, I heard U loud and clear. Across the bay even!!! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well TJS, if this is true then you'd better start doing ......... what do you think? N _ _ H _ _ G!

At least for now. That's right. U need to get with your counselor or a quick meeting with Steve or Jennifer to setup a plan.

See if your W wants to come back and you take her back TOOO early, it could backslide. Trust me there are a few of us that had many false recovery starts. One of the good MBers here LOR had 7 false recoveries. I had about 4. Lor and her H are doing quite well, but she can tell you how hard it is.

I had to learn to let my H earn back his right to be with us. It was not the other way around. We (his family) did not deserve less. When I implemented this attitude, explained to the WS (at the time) what was expected. Kept raising the bar when he backslided, it was more of a challenge for him and easier for me.

I also keep plan B in my back pocket. See for me, H came home last April 2001, May 2001 OW left about 34+ voicemail messages accusing H of committing 'emotional adultery' when he left her to go to his family, I had a miscarriage June 2001, OW claimed prego June 2001, WS went to 2 1/2 day stay at the local poke in July 2001, WS kicked out of the house/restraining order combo, August 2001 (our wedding anniversary month and the month OW had planned they be married - YUCK!) OW claimed prego 3, WS kicked out again - had to sleep in his truck, Dec 2001 WS kicked out again - slept in his truck, Feb 2002 WS kicked out again due to e-mail contact/OW made golf lesson plans for April 2002, last physical contact was supposedly in Feb 2002, last initiated contact was I believe March 2002...... OW tries to call during her monthly PMS spasisms.

Now that is what happened in what some call recovery. I don't call it that until End of May 2002, when H's attitude became more supportive and attentive. He told me that he does not miss the OW anymore.

So prepare for a bit of a rough ride. As bad as the OM maybe, she may still gravitate to him or try to pit you against him. Crazy but true. U still need to shore up your boundaries. Find out what you will not tolerate and write it in a letter. Keep it until you are ready to either give it to her or talk to her about it. It will help you keep things in better perspective.

Let's see if we can find JL or NSR. They are good with support.

tread wisely,
L.

Hi John:
I am happy to hear that the affair is not working and possibly the fog is lifting. I know you have a long road ahead of you but this is a great start. You are on the right track, Kim..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Original post by thejohnsmith:
I know she's got another crazy scheme planned w/ her OM. I'm not going to get into the story right now, but I'd bet a year's wages that it's more crap to try to pull me in the fog regarding my upcoming child support hearing. I'm just sure that she's trying to make things look good for her when she goes in front of the judge. But, it's too late. She's already done enough damage... I should be able to get them. God, I pray everyday for these boys of mine.
<hr /></blockquote>I take it that you are going to proceed with contacting an attorney to start the divorce proceedings?

[ July 06, 2002, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]

tjs,

From the other post ...

Are you sure you have all the fact not your speculation ?. If you have the fact, sit her down and proceed with tough love !!!. Draw the boundry is acceptable to you and let her know ... be it that you will proceed with the CC hearing and let her move out. NC letter is a must and all monitoring should be in place.

John, this is very critical time ... detail please -RH-

[ July 06, 2002, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]

Hi coffeeguy-
My W has already filed for D last Oct. Yes, I plan to let it continue.
_______________________________________________

redhat-
Okay, here's what's been happening.

Like I told you, she came over last Wed morn at 4:30 to tell me how she is going to move her stuff out of OMs house. Thurs, the 4th, I went to a friend's house on the lake and had a good time. My plans to leave town fell through. I got home around 10pm, and W came over about 30 mins later. She told me that her friend was coming out Fri to help her move her stuff back home, and told me how she wants to get this over with. I asked her if she was absolutely, 100% sure that's what she wants to do... end the A. She said it was. She started crying again saying she doesn't understand how I can forgive her for the things she has done. I left it at that, and did as little as possible to add to the conversation. I was avoiding LBing, and trying to do NOTHING.

Fri morn came and she called me to tell me that she was at OMs house. He wasn't there at the time, but she said she called him on his cell phone and he was coming home. She told me that she wanted to tell him that she was ending their A in person, against my request. So, she was going to get some boxes and come home. A couple of hours later, she called me and said she was home. She said that her friend was not coming to help, and asked if I could help her move. I didn't know what to say, but naturally, being the sap that I am, I agreed. I rented a UHaul trailer, picked her up and drove to OMs house (he was gone to pick up his daughter for the weekend, and wasn't going to be home for another 6 hrs). We started loading things up, and I stepped inside his house to help W w/ a piece of furniture. It hit me... all those things that used to be mine in my house was set up in HIS house, w/ her things arranged real nice. It was going to be her new home. Wow... it hit me really hard. He was using my kitchen table and arranged his dining room to accomodate my buffet. It really made me angry inside.

I told her I wanted to get the table next, and she wanted to leave it for last. We argued a while, because I told her that she is NOT going to leave that table ther e for him. It was a gift from W's parents.I knew I was LBing, but I refused to leave it. Well, by the time everything was loaded, guess what didn't fit... the table. She said she would go back Sunday w/ my truck to get it along w/ some other things she said was in his car. The drive back home (about 45 mins) was very quiet. She looked at me a few times and asked me what was wrong. I told her it was nothing.

We got to her house and I started to unload the trailer. She went in the house for a few minutes, and when she came out again she had been crying. I thought to myself... here we go with withdrawal and it hasn't even been an hour. After the trailer was unloaded, I went home just down the street. I called her about an hour later, and she was in tears. She told me that she called her mom and said she really misses her mom. She told me that she was crying because this was very hard for her, but she said she knew this was the right thing to do. She said that she was in withdrawal, but then changed her mind and said that she was very confused and she doesn't know which way is up anymore. She asked me if it was over (meaning our relationship), and I said that it doesn't have to be. I told her that I love her, but she must continue to not see OM and continue counseling. I wasn't going to be able to work on recovery until she can prove to me that she is willing and the A is completely over. She told me that she never stopped loving me through all this. I asked her then if she was trying to tell me that she loves me. She said yes. I haven't heard her say that in a long time. She said that her plans were to move her things back and come home (w/ me), but now she says she needs some time alone away from me and OM for a while. She said that she doesn't want to talk to me until our counseling appt Monday. I agreed. Then she said that she doesn't want to be alone, though, so she said she was going to stay w/ a friend, but couldn't decide who. Now, she doesn't have any friends anymore. Her only friend is 350 miles away (the friend that was going to help her move). She told me to give our S a big hug for her and said goodbye and hung up.

I called her mom then. I told her that W told me that she loved me. Her mom said that it was funny because W told her that she loves OM. While I was on the phone, I saw W drive away down the street. I just know that she is w/ OM this weekend.

I know the reason why she insisted on leaving the table there was so she would have an excuse to go back. It's a big piece of furniture, and so she's going to need him there to help her with it. She knew before she got her things that she was making a plan so she can see him again. I think that she, in fact, is not ready to end the A, but wants it to look like that to me so I can still be her way out. Another reason why I know she's at OMs house is because her friend called me and left a message about a hour after W left. Why would she call me if my W was going to be there in a couple of hours? I didn't get to talk to her friend today, but I'm sure she wanted to see how everything went for her during the move.

I'm really disappointed right now. I plan to go to the Counseling and say that I'm done w/ the lies for the last time. She is not to contact me again until she is commited to rebuilding the M, prove the A is over, quit her job, get off birth control, and earn the right to be with my family. Until then, I don't want to hear from her in any way.

Is this the right thing? I think so. Tough love... right? I'm not even so sure that I want to work on things right now. I feel betrayed again, and she lied to me again. How much can a man take?

[ July 07, 2002, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

TJS,

U have the steps right. At least in my opinion. You are stronger but hurt. You are also tired of these games.

Whether your words will bring her home or not is up to her. The condition you allow her to come home under is yours.

This is a hard thing but my personal belief is that respect for the M and ourselves is important. Funny how my H now reacts to other WS stories he hears about. He has very little tolerance for their foolishness yet he was just as guilty just a few months ago.

Go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You are at a crucial point, pray for a clearn mind and a calm heart. I made my decisions in the past and basically when they went against the grain of the WS, I had no regrets. Even now. Pleasing the WS was NOT my priority. But to get to that point took a lot. I put up with way more than anyone should have. Many of us have.

take care,
L.

tjs,

Have you read Torizo saga ... his W cry on his shoulder about OM !!!. what did he do ??? NOTHING ... listen to Orchid. Do nothing to retaliate or LB'ed. Get your fact, ask her what is her intention doing this. Make the boundry smaller every time there is incident like this .. but do nothing to severe your relationship, make her do it.

PS. reread Orchid replied to you ... it is touhg but you have to hang in there. Be strong and don't push her ...

-RH-

Orchid and redhat-

You're right... I need to get the facts instead of speculating. It's just that I don't think she has any friends, at least none that she told me about. Where else could she go and spend the past 2 nights with? I have done NO LBing! All these gripes have been in my head and I've not spoken to W about these thoughts.

Like Orchid wrote- "This is a hard thing but my personal belief is that respect for the M and ourselves is important." So true. I shouldn't have to settle for something less than what I deserve, especially after being subjected to her A. I need to set the boundaries, and let her decide if she is willing and able to meet my terms for returning to this M. I believe that the less I interfere in her decision-making, the better and more sound her decisions will be.

I noticed that her car is at home now. I think she'll be calling me sometime before the day is over. I'm interested to see what she has to say to me.

Thanks for helping me to stay strong.

I have a good friend that is working on her PhD in Family Counseling. I called her yesterday... she gives me free advice. She knows me, and she also knows my W, the events that occured up to W's A, and also knows the state of my M. Her advice is very similar to the things that Orchid has told me. My friend also was a WW, and can talk about this from her first hand experiences. She says that I need to let my W get herself out of this situation on her own, w/out my help. She says that I should let her experience her financial struggles on her own. Bottom line is that I need to work on making my life better instead of worrying so much about my W. Hmmm... seems like I've heard that before. My W needs to come to me when she has made a clear decision, otherwise this cycle may continue again w/ another man somewhere down the road. It's tough love that she was talking about. I think I get the picture. The same message is is given to me over and over again.

I read through some of Torizo's story as redhat suggested. I just think that very few people could do the things he did. In my opinion, it seems self-destructive and chiseled away at any self-respect he has, regardless how much he loves his WW. It's too hard for me to listen to my W talk about love for another man. I don't think she talked to OM about her feelings for me during her A. And I don't think I should be subjected to it either.

Anyway, it's time for me to take my mind off of this mess for a while and get a few things done around here. I have the counseling appt tomorrow. I think I'll prepare for that later.

[ July 07, 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

I think I'm the only one that's been on MB today. I don't see a whole lot of activity.

Well, tonite I taked to my W. She wanted to assure me that she did not spend the weekend w/ OM, but I have my reservtions about that. She asked me out to dinner, which I accepted. After dinner, she asked me if I wanted to watch a movie w/ her. I told her that I had a movie at home that I haven't seen yet, so I went to get it. Someone called for me while I was at home, so it took me about an hour to get back to her house. By then, she was too tired to watch the movie, and so was I. We sat on her porch for a few minutes before I came home. It was the first time she talked about rebuilding our marriage. I told her that it has to be crystal clear to her if that's what she wants to do. I told her that it will take a lot of work and patience and time, and that she's going to need to prove to me that it is really what she wants to do. I said that if she wants to reconcile, it must be because she wants the M... not for our kids sake, not because she afraid to be alone or on her own, not because she is afraid of not making it financially, not because of any other reason. Simply, because she wants to be with me again.

I restated my boundaries, and did so in a understanding and loving way. I told her that somehow she's going to need to prove to me that the A is over. Since she didn't want to write the letter to him the way I wanted, I have no proof that it is actually over. Particularly because she's told me 3 times now in the past 6 months that it was over, and it wasn't. She also must stop taking birth control pills, quit her job, and prove to me that she wants to commit herself 100% to rebuilding the marriage and be worthy to be my wife again. I tried to put this in a concise, considerate and thoughtful way.

She didn't say much. I think she's not completely sure that she is ready to commit to the M again, although she didn't say that. I have time on my side. I'm moving back into the driver's seat on this, and I feel somewhat relieved. But, I know I can't let my guard down. I know there is a long road ahead of me, and I'm trying to take it cautiously. She hasn't proven much of anything to me yet.

I think I need to do the same thing that I've been doing... nothing. I'm letting her take the steps towards me, not the other way around. I've been letting her call me, not me calling her. I've been letting her initate everything. I've been working on tough love, and I think that's the only way. I printed the EN questionaire and thought I'd give that to her when we are at the counseling tomorrow.

Am I doing okay at this thing?

[ July 07, 2002, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

tjs,

You are doing great !!!. I saw your post to others too, I am gald you are taking the step to help others ... there are many out there gasping for any reply. With the execption of Orchid most of us could not keep track on all posts let alone replying. Your deed will go a long way, God blesses who gives.

I have my 2D this week plus Monday I have mediation for CC review. I am busy preparing stuff but I was curious enough to check MB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

One size doesn't fit all ... specially in relationship. That's why there is no boundry in plan A. Torizo's is happy in recovery ... it is amazing how he rescued his wife. I can't do it and I do not think it will work for me niether. Now for you, you are doing good. You had set the boundry and told her w/o LB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... state the fact and let her know. This is plan A all about ... just remember your separation is not plan B. Your boundry setting is not plan B ... you still have to show your love to her and keep it safe for her to come back. It is tough love, an implementation of plan A. If you try to fill in time, read the link about Venusian Lady ... a different implementation of plan A.

Good job and keep it up. -RH-

Hey TJS,

Howa doing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Hi Orchid-
It's been a while since I last posted, but things seem to have changed for the better. Monday, we went to the counselor. I was a little upset because she seemed to address most of the questions to me. But, overall, I think it went fairly well. After the counseling, I gave her the EN questionnaire to fill out. Tuesday, my W invited me out for dinner and came over for a while afterwards. Wednesday, she invited me out for dinner and I declined. She came over anyway for an hour or so. We went over our EN forms w/ each other. Hers was fairly predictable, w/ affection at the top of her list. She also had honesty and conversation at the top, as well. She seemed surprised at my answers, though. So, I guess she learned a few things about me that night.

Last night, she called me at work and ask me if I wanted to go have dinner w/ her again. I told her that I was going to be late coming home from work, so I couldn't go w/ her. Later, around 10 that night, she called again. Shortly into the conversation, I asked her what she was doing... I mean as far as our M. She said that she wanted to work on our M, and she said that she loves me. We talked in length about our feelings and my hesitancy to trust her again. She understands that. She really seems to have woken up, and appears to have her head on straight for the first time in months. She asked me if I want her to quit her job right away, and told me that she would quit if I want her to. I told her that she better wait until she can find another job first. She also asked me if she can move back home, but I told her that I thought it was too soon, and that she must first prove to me that she is capable of being a good W and mother. She must earn that right. I reminded her that I went through a very difficult time over the past year that she was in her A, and it will take some time for both of us to recover. I asked her about the D, and if she was going to stop it. She said that she already talked to her attorney about doing that.

It looks like we are on the road to recovery, finally. I've been very careful to not let things get ahead of me before I'm ready. I take things one at a time, and make her show me that she does want to commit to the M. I let her call me, and I try to be the one to end the phone conversations. When she comes over, I am the one that says I need to go to bed. It's not real tough love, but I'm trying to make her prove herself to me, and let her take the initiative. I feel a strong desire to initiate sex w/ her, but I've been able to resist... it hasn't been easy, by any means.

I have a big interview Monday. They are flying me to California for a couple of nights, with motel and limo service. I'm really looking forward to it. So, I'll fill you in on how things went when I get back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Take care!

thejohnsmith,

Are you flying to SF BayArea ?. We both live here. I don't have my 2D around for this week so ... give me a ring I could play tour guide <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Good Luck on your interview <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -RH-

Hi Redhat!
I'll be flying to the LA area. My time is going to be tight while I'm there. I wish I had more time for site-seeing, but because of my job position, I can't be gone for very long. Besides, my boss doesn't know that I'm looking for a new job, so it was tough to get 2 days off.

Thanks for the offer, though. Maybe someday, if or when I get the job, I can take you up on your offer!

I'll let you know how it goes.

Hey TJS,

RH will be disappointed. He is the in the Bay Area not LA. But if you move to LA, we'll be neighbors! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Have a good trip. Actually there are several MBers out in the LA area. CALI, Pepperband, and more....

L.

bump ... any update ? -RH-

tjs ... please check in ... you make me worry. Remember you are not alone and we are here to support each other.

-RH-

Hi, Redhat-
The last time I wrote, I was about to take a trip to CA for an interview. I did have that interview on July 15th. Actually I had 6 interviews with people all from the same company on the same day. It lasted from 9am to 5 pm. They all went quite well. A few days later, I was called again from the same company. They wanted to set up another day of interviews 2 weeks later, which was July 29th. So, they flew me out there again for 6 more interviews. I feel good about it. I think that they will make me an offer. I wanted to work for this company for a long time, and I really have my hopes up.

Also at the time that I last posted, I said that my wife ended her affair, and she told me that she wanted to get our family back together. I helped her move all her stuff back home on July 5th. For about a week, she was really trying. But, she started to act differently after about a week. I asked her several times if this is really what she wants. She told me it was. I remember asking her to take some time to think about it to be sure. I didn’t want to let down all my barriers and give her my heart again if she was just going to break it again. I couldn’t live through that again. The very next morning, she came over to my house, knelt down next to me on my bed (I was still sleeping) and told me that she was absolutely sure that she wanted to try to work on our marriage. I was so happy.

But, still there was something that was wrong. It wasn’t in her words, but in her actions. She said to me that she never stopped loving me. But she acted otherwise. I tried to show her the love that I have for her. We both filled out the emotional needs questionaire, and busted my butt to fill meet her important needs… #1 affection, #2 communication, #3 family commitment, #4 financial support, #5 honesty. But something was missing. I tried to talk to her about it, but she wouldn’t ever say anything.

One of the issues that I wrote as a boundary for reconciliation I wrote her in my plan B letter was that she was to get off birth control pills. I asked her if she stopped taking them, and she said she did. A few weeks ago, she was at my house doing some laundry, and I took a peek in her purse. I found her BC pills, and she had been taking them still. Later, I asked her again if she was on the pill, and she said no. I asked her if she would take her pill holder out of her purse to show me. She reluctantly did, and I showed her that she hadn’t missed a day. She denied it, and said she hadn’t been taking them for over a week. But the truth was right there staring me in my face. She was lying to me.

About a week later, I asked her to promise me that she will always tell me the truth from that moment on, regardless if it would hurt me, or if it was even trivial. She promised. Well, about 2 weeks ago, I was at her house. She wasn’t home. I put something in her wastebasket, and saw a receipt lying on top of her trash. It was a Rx receipt. In fact, it was for her BC pills. She actually bought them the very day that she made me her promise to be honest, and still swore she wasn’t on the pill. Ironically, we met at our counseling session the next morning, the day after my 2nd series of interviews. The counselor wasn’t there yet, so I reminded her of her promise to me. Then I asked her again if she was seeing OM. She got mad at me, and said no. Then I asked her if she was still on BC, and again, she denied it. I pulled the receipt out of my pocket and showed it to her. She became very angry and said it was none of my business. I didn’t talk to her the next day, but called her the following morning. I said that I was very hurt because she broke her promise to me. God, how could I ever believe her again? My trust was already at a minimum because of the past year with OM. Then she told me that she isn’t sure if she wants to try anymore. I told her that I wasn’t so sure anymore either. I mean, every time I try to be nice to her, she takes everything for granted without a thank you, and I never get anything whatsoever in return. No hugs, no kisses, no thank you, no I love you… nothing. I told her that I have no more trust for her after breaking her promise to me. I told her that I want her to stop coming around… I was going back to plan B. A few days later (last Monday), she came over to my house crying. She sat down and told me that she’s so depressed. Well, I melted, and started hugging her. I offered to let her stay the nite if she wanted, but she didn’t. We hugged for a long time, with a few kisses in between. Probably 15 or 20 minutes.

Now the next 3 nites (the past 3 nites), she has been working out-of-town until past midnite, and I’ve been keeping the boys all nite. She hasn’t called me at all the past 3 days either. But last nite, she called at 1:30 in the morning. By the time I got to the phone to see who it was, she was already at my back door. I opened the door, and asked her what she was doing. She had her hands full of laundry, and asked if she can use my washing machine. She just whisked past me and went into the laundry room. A few minutes later, she came out and we talked briefly. Then she asked me what was wrong. I asked her why she couldn’t wait until morning to do her laundry, and she said she wanted to do it now. I expressed my confusion, and she got mad and left. This morning, I called at my house from work and she was there. I asked her if she was going to apologize for last nite, and she did. Then I said that she has been acting strangely lately, and asked her if she has been seeing OM. She said no, as I expected. I told her that maybe we need to take a break from each other because I feel like she’s breaking my heart all over again. I asked her again if she has been w/ OM, and she said no. Then she told me that she wanted me to see my attorney and hurry up our divorce. I said I wanted to talk to her before I do because she never will sit down and tell me what she’s thinking. She agreed. So, tonite, she came over. She told me that she wants our divorce to get over, and she says she “can’t do this”. I asked her to explain, and she said she doesn’t love me, she feels uncomfortable around me (not because anything I do), and she just wants to make me a part of her past.

I told her that I will go to my attorney tomorrow. I also asked her if she’s absolutely sure that she wants us to end our relationship forever, and never see each other again. She said yes. I tried one more time to say to her that we can take some time away from each other to think things over, and she said no. She is finished. I asked her if she is still confused, and she said no. I also asked her if she was still going to see the counselor, and she has an appointment this Wed. so, I told her that I know that one day she is going to change her mind. But until that day, I told her that I cannot help her any longer. No money, no laundry… nothing. I said I hope she knows what she’s doing. I have her a hug, I gave her a kiss, and I said good-bye.

Now, I know that she’s going to court two times soon because she is being sued for bills she didn’t pay… over $1000. I also know that she lost her drivers license for not appearing in court for a traffic violation, but she continues to drive. I also know that the reason why she’s been showering at my house was because her gas has been turned off for non-payment, and she will need to put down $150 to get it turned back on again. and I also know that she hasn’t made a rent payment since last May. And I know that she expected me to help her pay for some of these things, although she never asked me. In other words, she’s in deep.

She also knows that I may be offered that job in CA soon, and if offered, I’m taking it. She told me a couple of weeks ago that she was going to move out there if I go so I can see my boys, and she can see her S that’s with me. But she has since then realized that she could never afford to move to CA. But, she has no plan on how we are suppose to see our kids if I move.

I’m sorry to write such a long story. But, I’m just so confused. I’m too afraid to trust her again, but I love her so dearly. Redhat, you always give such good advice. What would you say to me now? I love my wife very much, and I know that if she could commit herself to trying in our relationship, everything will fall into place. But I need to see that commitment before I’m willing to let down my barriers. I’m in such a deep dilemma. I really don’t think she knows how she feels. I truly believe she is depressed and is feeling sorry for herself. I really believe that in a few days, she’ll start calling me again. what should I do then? Our 11 year anniversary is on the 17th of this month. Should I get her some flowers, a card, offer dinner… or should I ignore it?

Wow, I really thought everything was going to work out great. It’s so hard for me to understand how she can swing emotionally so quickly within a short period of time from wanting to try, to wanting to never see me again. Finally, I really think that her relationship w/ OM is over for reasons that I’m not going to get into right now. But, OM is her boss and she must see him at work occasionally. She also claims that she’s on BC because it helps her complexion. Hmmmm… I question that one.

Can you lend me your take on this? I'm afraid that maybe this time is the last. I pray a lot...

TJS

tjs ...

This is my 2¢. You take your W too early ... a false recovery ... Orchid could help you out in that department. IMVHO, she is still in contact w/ OM & A is still going ... NC is a big requirement, she fell again to OM. You have to do "tough love" ... don't cater to her. You are doing good ... what you need to do is make sure that your refusal to help is to protect you not to punish her. I think she got the message. You have to still tell her that you still beleive that both of you could rebuild if she is willing and that there are many had been though this path and have a happy recovery. All she needs to do it work on M under MB principal.

IMVHO, you are not ready for plan B.

Tell her if she wants Dv she could file it herself ... all she needs to do is fill in a form and filed it. Don't need a lawyer unless there is disagreement between the two of you. Tell her you don't have time to do it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

You have to put the boundry ... if quit working to get away and move out to CA to rebuild your M ... so be it. It might be God's will to open you another door ... She could be part of it if she choose to.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...so, I told her that I know that one day she is going to change her mind. But until that day, I told her that I cannot help her any longer. No money, no laundry… nothing. I said I hope she knows what she’s doing. I have her a hug, I gave her a kiss, and I said good-bye. <hr /></blockquote>Very good <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I really believe that in a few days, she’ll start calling me again. what should I do then? Our 11 year anniversary is on the 17th of this month. Should I get her some flowers, a card, offer dinner… or should I ignore it?<hr /></blockquote>Do it ... if she ask you tell her that she is still your W until Dv and this might be your last anniv. you want to make it special and something that you could remember ...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Wow, I really thought everything was going to work out great. It’s so hard for me to understand how she can swing emotionally so quickly within a short period of time from wanting to try, to wanting to never see me again.<hr /></blockquote>Easy, false recovery since OM is back in the picture again.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Finally, I really think that her relationship w/ OM is over for reasons that I’m not going to get into right now. But, OM is her boss and she must see him at work occasionally. She also claims that she’s on BC because it helps her complexion. Hmmmm… I question that one.<hr /></blockquote>I don't think so ... A is not ending or just got started again ... as part of working on M ... WW has to quit. Move to CA, away from this.

tjs, you are underestimating yourself. You are tougher than what you think. You could do tough love ...

One advice, any info. from snooping you should not use it against your W. It is a way to monitor your relationship progress ... As painful discovery as it is, you should sit back and regroup. You should concentrate on fillin her ENs and use snooping to monitor your progress. You could let her know as part of RH when you are way into recovery.

-RH-

TJS,

Good to hear from you but sorry it is with false recovery incidents. Yea your W is babbling again. Contact with OM? Very likely.

BC for complexion issues? Yes it is possible (see the commericals on TV?) but since her attitude matches the A attitude than the zit attitude, the BC could be for the PA stuff. Ouch! I know that hurt to hear. Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

As for your move to another job? Well based on her current status, can you get custody of the children, then move? It will be hard but it could be done. The fact that she has languished in her bills and the OM is her boss? Hm.... doesn't say much of what he is paying her or else the calculator in her brain is broken and the fact that she still has blank checks does NOT mean she has an endless supply of money in the bank.

You should not allow her to waltz into your home to do anything. Children related is one thing. Personal laundry is another. So she doesn't have a place to wash her clothes? There is always the kitchen sink. Let the OM meet all her needs.

She is using you and your home to meet her needs. If you are in plan B or need to be then cut off all unneccesary contact with her. Limit it to specific important items. Stick to it. When she cries, let her know that right now you are in too much pain to deal with her tears. She choose to be out there, then that is where she needs to fix it.

My WS moved out also. Then claimed he did not have a place to wash his clothes. Last time I checked there were a lot of laundry mats all around town. He said he did not want to put his clothes in a washer that was not clean. Hm..... I told him that then he needed to find another house that would let him use theirs because I don't want my washer to be used by someone who was not clean either. Hm...... babbled back and he left.

I stood my ground and it was what was needed for us at the time. Even when the WS came home he said the fact that I previously took him back made it seem like it was too easy to take advantage of me. He knew it was wrong but just way tooo tempting.

Don't let your W do that to you and your family.

L.

There is also another issue that you have probably not faced is that would you trust a person like her with your children's financial future if you were to die tomorrow?

My multiple A loving xWW helped yours truly get in debt to the tune of $20,000.00. I accept total responsability for that debt and thankfully I was able to pay it all back thanks to the timely selling of some stocks that went high during the bullish market of the late 90's. I was lucky but I swore that I would never again let myself be influenced into getting in such a financial hole.

You need to think about how you can provide for your childrens financial future that does not depend on such an inmature and financially irresponsable person like your WW.

[ August 11, 2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]

I've been too worn out to post lately. I just feel really drained. Coffeeguy has a point that I've been thinking about for some time. I am going to my attorney tomorrow to finalize the paperwork. This way, I can add all the necessary stipulations, such as not being responsible for her debts as of our separation date, and no men in her house w/ the kids after 10pm. Ironically, I will do this paperwork the day before my 11th anniversary.

I don't think I will invite WW to dinner. I don't have anything to celebrate. I'm just reminded about my anniversary last year... our "special" 10th. I was low on cash (you guessed it... WW put more financial burdens on me), so I sold one of my favorite antique clocks (I have a weakness for old clocks). Even though she told me she wanted a D a couple of weeks earlier, I still bought her a card, flowers, and took her out to dinner & drinks. What a crappy nite that was. Her thoughts were about OM all nite... not that she talked about him, but the fact she didn't talk much at all. The next nite she didn't come home.

I'm just really pi$$ed off right now. Other things have come to my attention lately that I just don't feel like getting into. But I'll say this... I'm so SICK & TIRED of listening to her LIES, LIES, LIES!!! She can't say a single word of truth to me if her life depended on it! And, I am just reached my rope's end. Even tonite, just 30 minutes ago, she waltzed into my house and asked me if I can watch the boys while she goes to work for a few hours at another store 90 miles away. Geeeeez... c'mon... do I look like an idiot? It's almost 11pm! What am I supposed to say to that? My kids are standing there right in front of me. I want to give her the tongue lashing like she's never heard before, but instead, I smile and say "sure". It just aches to watch her walk away, knowing where she's going. Weeeellll.... I can't do this anymore. No one should put up w/ this kind of selfish, inconsiderate, disrespectful, irresponsible pile of heaping trash. How could anyone ever want to be with such a person? Does someone's love ever lift above the crap and take a back seat, just hoping that their cheating, lying spouse MIGHT want to come back if the other relationship doesn't suit their liking.

Yup... I'm mad as h@ll right now. Just knowing that I've been here for that tramp for over a year now, busting my butt trying to pry my W from another man's arms. To be so completely disregarded without a second thought. Nearly unimaginable if I hadn't experienced this with my own eyes.

Well, hope my W's anniversary day goes as miserably as I feel... if she even remembers.

Sorry to hear about the latest development TJS.

You are doing the correct thing in going to your attorney. You and your children need order and not the chaos from your WW whose maturity level is probably lower than your youngest one.

One of the wisest indiviudals in our happy group is Orchid. She did not let her WH return until he could prove himself worthy of returning to her and the children. If her H was truly motivated to want to come back to her, he would have to demonstrate with ACTIONS, and so he did and now they are doing a great recovery. But in Orchid's case it seems that she was able to emotionally detach from her H and accept the very high likelihood that her H was only paying lip service and that the most likely outcome would be divorce.

If your WW came to you tomorrow, begging and pleading to you to please give her another chance, and you were inclined to do so, then it would be wise to consider the strategy that Orchid used to weed out the seriousness, or lack thereoff, of her WH words. Setting the bar high for your WW to jump will show you IF she truly means it when she says she wants to stay married to you.

The more time I am here reading about other people's situations, the more it's becoming clear to me that in those cases where the WS has come out of the fog and wants to work on the marriage it was in large part because the BS had finally had enough and was finally ready to move on. Lo and behold the WS suddenly has a change of heart. It may be due to the fact that they will no longer have the financial and emotional support that they took for granted and are scared of finding him/herself alone. But the problem is that BS finds him/herself giving the WS another chance without having had the WS prove that they mean what they say, and thus when the panic finally goes away for the WS, him/her goes back to the same old WS games of lying and cheating to get their fix of the OP and all the while the BS is once again screwed by the WS. This 'rollercoaster' ride eventually kills any love the BS may have left over for the WS, and will eventually drive him/her to terminate the M.

Sorry for the rant TJS but I hope that at the very least it is thought provoking.

Hey, Coffeeguy, you can rant whenever you want. I think you and I think alike. I agree about the cycle with WS behavior. I guess I know it all too well. But I thought I was doing a good job. However, I can't say that I actually accepted her back. What really happened was that WW simply overstepped the boundaries I set, and I allowed it to happen. Either way, it's my misjudgment. But there is a difference between "accepting" and "allowing". I let her start using me subtly. I wanted things to work out so bad that I let it happen. It seemed trivial to me to help her out with $20 or $40 here and there, let her use my washer and dryer, let her come into my house when I wasn't there... she seemed so sincere in trying. And I really think that she DID intend to work on our relationship. Her words and actions were genuine... for about a week or so. We were caught in a Catch-22. In order for any chance for her to find feelings for me again, she must never see OM again. But, I wasn't willing to simply let her come and live with me again. I feel that would be certain destruction. But, I live in a small town, and there are no other jobs that she can get, Particularly since she makes better than average income for this town. In order for her to pay bills (which she doesn't do very well), she needs to work. So, what are the options? Let her move in with me right away (taking her back too soon), pay her bills for her so she can quit her job (I don't make enough money even if I wanted to do that), or she continues to work at her current job w/ OM and just hope that things won't flare up again. There is no scenario that will work. It was doomed from the start. So, naturally, her attraction for OM was too great and she gave in. Anyone could see that coming, but it was unavoidable. She still denies that she's seeing him, but I believe otherwise.

I don't understand, though, why she insists on hiding her A any longer. What does she gain from lying anymore? Even if she isn't having the A, I have chose to continue finalizing our D papers to protect myself from her financial destruction landing in my lap. God, I know exactly what is going to happen. I'm going to get a new job out of the state, and without her commitment, I'm going to leave her behind. In a few weeks or months, she's going to realize that I really am gone out of her life. I know she's going to come out of her fog again and realize the mistakes she made, and want to move in with me. But, I'm not willing to take such a risk. Wouldn't it be too soon to take her back? But if I don't, how can we ever work on our relationship long distance? And, besides, when I'm gone and on my way to self-recovery, I'm too afraid of moving her where I am for fear she will just change her mind again. It's another no-win situation. I could pull my hair out until it's gone thinking about all this. Something that I've been working on for over a year will probably never materialize. That's a big pill to swallow.

My other mistake is that I thought I was maintaining a barrier when she was "trying". I was being so careful with my emotions. But, I was mistaken. The thrill of recovery manifesting at last after such a long time was too much. I DID let emotions run amok without me realizing it. I was hoping beyond hope that our marriage was going to be delivered. Now, I am back emotionally where I was months ago. Geeeez, will this ever end? I am in such turmoil all over again. I was at a point where I was able to turn my back on her and her actions. It didn't bother me much when she was gone all nite. Now I find myself wondering if she's calling OM on the phone late at nite, or if she's really going to work or to OM's house. This is soooooo screwed up! Why am I too weak to walk away from her abuse? I had prepared arduously to separate emotionally... then she sucked me back in again with her false recovery. I am torn apart with misery and love, fear and hope, anger and understanding, resentment and forgiveness.

Oh... but I did do something right today that I feel proud of. Yesterday was our 11th anniversary. I didn't plan on doing anything for it, and I hadn't asked her out. So she came over and asked me if I could watch the boys so she could "go out" to a party. I reminded her that this will be our last anniversary that we will ever have. She said she didn't think about that, but reminded me that I didn't offer to take her out. She has a way of humbling me, and I agreed to letting the boys spend the nite. But, I just know that she spent the nite at OM's house, and it really made me angry. Why would she go to a party and not come home until the next day? So, this morning she came over around noon. She said hi, and then she asked me if it would be okay if she washed a load of laundry. I said no, it wouldn't be okay. Then she asked if she can take a shower (her gas is shut off at her house). I said no. she just stood there and stared at me. I said that I was tired of her taking advantage of me, and I'm not going to let her continue doing so. She looked stunned, babbled a little (as Orchid would say), took the boys and went home. About a half an hour later, I called her. I took Redhat's advice and told her that I wasn't doing it because I wanted to be cruel, but because I was protecting myself by not allowing her to use me any longer. I did find it amusing that she was getting ready to take a cold bath when I called. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But, it was very difficult for me to turn down her laundry request even though I know I was doing the right thing. Something puzzles me, though. When we were talking on the phone, she told me she was going to be busy today with this and that, and she was going to the laundromat. Now, before her false recovery, she took her laundry to OM's house. So, why would she go to the laundromat, especially since I know she doesn't have much money. My S confirmed her story later when he called me. She's been doing strange things like that for a month or so. I wonder if she really is trying to throw me off guard, or what?

But my biggest question is this... should I really continue doing this "tough love" even though we will soon be legally divorced, or is it time for me to turn my back and walk away? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Well, I guess I feel a somewhat better. Maybe now I can get some sleep... maybe.

TJS

[ August 19, 2002, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

Hey TJS, I'm glad that you still show signs of fogging up mirrors <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If your W had any interest in the M, the anniversary date would have been a big deal to her and would have at least given you a card expressing love, but instead she asks to leave the boys with you and probably go out partying with OM.

I do beleive in MB but even Harley acknowledges that there are M's that should not be saved where there is violence and addictions that are beyond the scope of MB to handle. In your case it seems that you W's financial irresponsability has caused serious economic hardship for you and your family and that is totally unacceptable behavior for any adult that is married with children.

It is obvious that you still care a lot for her but accept the truth that at the present time she is more of a liability than an asset, and thus are in the process of divorcing her. Often times a divorce can force an inmature person to get his/her s*** together. I hope this is the case with your stbxw because she will always be the mother of your children, and what happens to her will certainly affect them.

As far as your last question is concerned, I vote for you to turn and walk away.

[ August 19, 2002, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]

Going back and reading my last post tells me that I need to write when I'm more awake. I could have trimmed it down to about 2 paragraphs. Sorry, guys... I was a little (actually a lot) upset when I wrote it.

Anyway, I wanted to tell Redhat that I have not disregarded his advice. I still think I need to continue finish off my divorce for my own financial safety. My attorney won't be in his office until tomorrow. I can talk to him a bit more as to what I can do to protect myself. Part of the problem is that 2 of WW's big bills she is being sued for are a medical and dental bill for my kids. I would have preferred to have her tell me about these things before they become so far behind. I will try to pay half of the amount.

But, RH, I think you are still right about me being able to do tough love. Sometimes I get overwhelmed and think I can never make it. But, to be honest, I really think that we will be parting ways soon.

Gotta go to work now.

Today I called my attorney. I have an appointment w/ him tomorrow. I just don't know what to do. I know I probably should get the final papers ready to sign, but it hurts really bad thinking about it all. I keep thinking about what Redhat told me... you can do tough love... let her go to her attorney if she wants the divorce. She asked me again tonite if I went to my attorney. She really wants this D done with.

I just have some really huge emotional swings. Right now, it's a really bad one. I just don't understand this much. It looks to me like she really, really wants to put an end to this. She keeps telling me to have my attorney write up the final papers and make a court date for the D.

I think I have a good shot at getting that job in CA. What do I do then? If I tell WW that she can come with me so we can start a new life and work on our marriage, I know it would be too soon. But, if she doesn't come out with me, I'm afraid I must put her in my past and never look back. How could I ever continue this tough love?

What are my chances right now? I mean, she almost had a change of heart just over a month ago. I played it very calmly... I thought I worked it very well. Since I'm almost certain that she's w/ OM again, how can I make this tough love work?

My soul is just being torn apart piece by piece. I don't feel strong enough to work on this anymore. I love my W so much. But I just have no energy anymore. Yet, this is all I can think about. Where can I find strength?

We talked briefly tonite on the phone. I told her that I would really like to hear her tell me something... anything. I just hate getting nothing from her. So, she told me that tomorrow nite we can talk. I've been waiting so long to hear her tell me her thoughts, even if they are cloudy. But I'm also afraid that I'm not strong enough to hear her tell me things that I know are going to hurt me to hear.

I have such a heavy heart tonite. I hope I can sleep.

TJS

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Today I called my attorney. I have an appointment w/ him tomorrow. I just don't know what to do. I know I probably should get the final papers ready to sign, but it hurts really bad thinking about it all. I keep thinking about what Redhat told me... you can do tough love... let her go to her attorney if she wants the divorce. She asked me again tonite if I went to my attorney. She really wants this D done with.<hr /></blockquote>TJS ... it is your choice. I understand well when you talk about financial matter, I think if my WW didn't file first I will file for it. It is purely financial decision. I have to look after what could be salvage after tornado A passed through. By pushing financial settlement early in the process, I move into my house last week <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... Looking back, I could stall the Dv and so on but I do what I have to ...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just have some really huge emotional swings. Right now, it's a really bad one. I just don't understand this much. It looks to me like she really, really wants to put an end to this. She keeps telling me to have my attorney write up the final papers and make a court date for the D.<hr /></blockquote>Most WS/OP don't have a plan ... they just day dream what life could be. This is my 2¢; WW thought life is better w/o you and Dv will bring some $$. WW will blow the money away.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think I have a good shot at getting that job in CA. What do I do then? If I tell WW that she can come with me so we can start a new life and work on our marriage, I know it would be too soon. But, if she doesn't come out with me, I'm afraid I must put her in my past and never look back. How could I ever continue this tough love?<hr /></blockquote>This is exactly what you have to do in tough love ... you set the boundry and let WW has the burden to choose.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />What are my chances right now? I mean, she almost had a change of heart just over a month ago. I played it very calmly... I thought I worked it very well. Since I'm almost certain that she's w/ OM again, how can I make this tough love work? <hr /></blockquote>If you have a kid and don't know any better, you should "give" and "help" them understand. After they understood the matter but they keep doing it ... you better run for the hill (Dv) or set the boundry and be strong about it. Either way you are the only one could make that choice ... and no one will judge you for any decision that you make. You stay so far in this M, that is more than anything that your WW could ask for.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />My soul is just being torn apart piece by piece. I don't feel strong enough to work on this anymore. I love my W so much. But I just have no energy anymore. Yet, this is all I can think about. Where can I find strength? <hr /></blockquote>NC will help you out ... this is what plan B all about. However it is one way street so you better take a break from all of this and think hard ... look at my sig ...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />We talked briefly tonite on the phone. I told her that I would really like to hear her tell me something... anything. I just hate getting nothing from her. So, she told me that tomorrow nite we can talk. I've been waiting so long to hear her tell me her thoughts, even if they are cloudy. But I'm also afraid that I'm not strong enough to hear her tell me things that I know are going to hurt me to hear.<hr /></blockquote>You sound like burned out ... take a break from her for few days w/o contact. Remember don't expect nothing from WW ...

-RH-

I was so disheartened last nite when I posted. Thank you so much for your advice, Redhat. But, tonite ended in a terrible climax. It just left me devastated and I’m in even worse shape than before.

I have been asking her to tell me what has happened... why did she have the change in heart. If she isn't seeing OM, then what caused this? She never tells me anything other that she knows that she doesn't love me and will never love me. I remind her of the things she said to me just a month and a half ago. She said that she loves me and never did stop loving me. We talked about renewing our vows when we get back on track. She says its because she wanted to try so she can be with her son that lives with me now. She had to discredit all the good things she said to me.

She came over tonite when she got off from work. She was kinda cold to me. She says she wants to talk to me about finalizing the divorce papers. I told her some things that I want to put in the divorce as stipulations. One of them was that neither one of us can have an adult of the opposite sex be in the house between 10pm and 8am when the kids are present. She just looked at me but didn't say anything.

I bought her a card today for some reason. I wrote things in it about looking in the future and forgeting about the hard times in the past. I wrote that I love her "with all my breath and body, mind and soul". When she read it, her eyes swelled up with tears. She asked me why I gave it to her and I said I just wanted to. I said that everything failed in her attempt at reconciliation because she never stopped the communication w/ OM. She continued to deny seeing him. I didn't press the issue. I just told her that I would like to spend next weekend away from here, just the 2 of us so we can get away from everything for a while and breathe. She said she didn't want to. I said some things about how smart she is, but how foolish here decisions are. I know... LBing. Anyway she went home and left the boys here to eat dinner.

A while later, she called me to say that "there is no way in h3ll" that she is going to sign any papers that say no one after 10pm and 8am. I asked why not. I said that I have to adhere to it, too. And when she gets remarried, then it no longer will be in effect. She said that she is never getting married again and that I'm trying to control her. I said that it's not true, but I just don't want my children exposed to a sexual relationship. She said that she will fight me for that in court. I asked her why is it such a big issue if she's not seeing anyone, and she replied again that I'm trying to control her. Then she hung up on me. A while later, I tried calling her back. The phone was busy, and was busy for 15 minutes or so. So, I walked down to her house - she just lives a few houses down from me. I know... bad idea. But, my emotions got the best of me. She answered the door, and she was still on the phone. I went in and she says to the person on the phone "Well, [her sister's name], I gotta call you back". I said that I couldn't get ahold of her by phone because it was busy for so long that I ended up walking down. She informed me that she was talking to her sister. Yeah, right. Anyway, I said that she can't fight me in court about the after-hours visitors because it is something that I have the right to put in the divorce stipulations. She started yelling at me and said that I was trying to control her. I said that I wasn't, and I have to abide by it too. She told me to leave. I went to the door, and paused. I turned around should have left then, but said "Why are you treating me this way? What did I ever do to deserve this kind of treatment?" She told me to get out. I opened the door and said "All I ever wanted was for my family to be back together. All I ever wanted was for my wife to come back. My family is the most important thing in my life, and I can't just walk away and let my kids go. I value my family and my marriage too much to give up like that. I love my kids and I love you. I can't bear the thought of not being able to see my boys when I want to." I was in tears by then. She said please leave. So, I left.

Okay, a lot of LBing, and I also know that everything I said was unheard. My emotions got the best of me, and I'm sure I did an awful lot of damage. But, I couldn't help it. I've been bottling things up for so long... it just finally exploded. As I walked home, I thought to myself... "that didn't go as well as I had hoped". As soon as I got home, she called. I answered the phone and she asked if the boys are done eating yet. I said that I'll send them home when they get done. Then I said that I was sorry for my outburst. I am very emotional right now, and it hurts me very much to think that I will live my life away from my boys, and they won't be able to be with their dad every day. I told her that because I think I will be offered a job far from here, and I may accept. I said that maybe I can find a job somewhere closer. Then I said I'd let her go.

Ironically, my brother-in-law called a while later... the husband of the sister my W was supposed to have been talking to earlier. I asked him if my W had called, and he said that they just got home. Obviously, my W told me yet another lie, as I expected.

Okay, now what do I do. I just LBed her to death and she doesn’t even want to talk to me now. All she wants me to do is finish the stipulations for the D and make a court date. Just 6 weeks ago, we were working on our marriage… now we’re working on the divorce. This is NUTS! Just last week, she wanted to go to CA with me if I get offered the job. She’s sliding fast right back into her dream-world. And she’s taking my kids with her. Oh, it just tears me apart. How can I take a job so far away from my boys? There are everything to me! If I try to get custody and win, then I’m forced to stay in the state unless she gives me permission to take them… and there is no way she would do that. Even if she knew it would be better for them, she would say no just out of spite. I can go back to court to try to convince the court that it’s in their best interest for me to take them to another state, but I would have to wait for another court date. No company in the world is going to hold a job for me that long. My choices are either pursue a career, or pursue my kids. There is no job anywhere that is worth giving up my kids. She is literally ruining my life!

I can’t believe this is happening to me. What do I do? It’s obvious to me that plan A isn’t even going to touch this. Not even “tough love”, I don’t think. Plan B is the only way… I don’t see any other way. God, yes, I love my wife. But I can’t deal with this any longer. In the past 2 months she’s whipped me around like a dog with a chew toy.

I hope someone is out there tonite. I don’t think I’m gonna be getting much sleep, and I sure would like to hear from someone. I just feel more alone that I ever have in this whole year of her A. And I have a decision that’s such a burden. It’s awfully heavy…

Okay, Redhat, Coffeguy, and Orchid... I hope at least one of you reads this. I just read the Torizo thread that RH suggested to me a while back. Yes, it does give me hope, somewhat. But after all my LBing tonite, I wonder... I know I threw her far away from me tonite, right into OM's arms. And to make it worse, she's going to see him at work tomorrow... all day long. I just hope I can think of something so she can think about it all day. Maybe I better not... I'd probably make things worse that it already is.

Anyway, Torizo's posts made me wonder... should I try plan A again if I feel like I have enough strength? If I can find hope, I'm strong enough to do anything. Or do you still suggest tough love?

I have learned much through MB, and I know that I should not be telling her "I love you" constantly. First of all, I don't think she hears me any more when I say it. She used to say "I know" whenever I told her that I love her. But the past couple of days, she doesn't say anything. I tell you, OM is telling her what to do and say, and she's acting like a puppet on a string.

Secondly, I know that I look pathetic if I keep crawling around saying "I love you". I know I need to let her know that I love her, but I also need to gain some respect. Respect is the hard part. She has no respect for me, and no consideration.

Well, Reading Torizo's story makes me feel quite a bit better. I actually feel tired right now. I think I'm going to go to bed soon. I just hope I can sleep.

TJS,

I hear your pain ... my WW brought my 2 D around OM & his "family" last week and what do I do ? .... nothing. Doing nothing is the hardest part that BS has to learn. I try to be the best dad for my 2 D and whatever my WW does to her R w/ my 2 D is her problem. My 2 D hated ... I just sit back and watch. My 2 D starts comparing dad .vs. Mom and worst ... dad .vs. OM. I know I will win, I just have to focus on 2 D nad my R w/ them. I am basically learning how to care & protect my R w/ my 2 D and be my princesses. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

tjs, you should learn by now that when BS LB'ed ... WS runs to OP ! and push them closer ... i.e something to talk about !!!. It is very hard to talk back to the fog, so far I only see Orchid could do that. Also you either in plan A or plan B ... nothing in between. You could go back from plan B to plan A only under MB guidance ... from the pro or carefully "ping'n" the WS. Again this is the reason why when plan B requires NC and be broken if and only if WS is willing to work on M.

This is my 2¢. Major LB is not the end of the world ... it just another one of those bad day. It will pass and you move on. About the kids, she can't decide ... let the court decides !. You might end up having the kids stays w/ you to go to CA. When WS is in deep fog, you either have to ride it out or you hit the break on the 'coaster. At this point whne she knew your intention and fully aware about your changes ... and still reject your plan A ... you either go back to plan B (solid ones) or just do what Orchid did ... every time WS waffled to her she tighten the boundry and told WS to file and go to OP ! if the grass is greener. The first one is prefferable in MB and the later one is actually "tough love" ... a very dangerous move, you could only use it if OP is not ready to take WS ... otherwise is the end of your M.

No one could fault you on which path you want to travel. Just make sure that you be darn sure lokking back 10 years from now you could still say "I did by best and I would do it the same way w/ the information that I have at that moment"

-RH-

thejohnsmith,

I have been following your posts and I just want to offer my support with the tough love thang!

The only thing that worked in my situation was to completely back off and "pretend" as if I was going on with my life. I knew it may mean the end of my marriage, but it didn't appear that I had much of a marriage at the time anyway.

I really believe you need to do this for your own personal benefit as well as the benefit of your wife. Since you have been going through this for a while, then chances are your wife knows deep down how you feel.

Tough love is difficult but if you read the stories on this board, most of the time, a WS does not come around until the BS is truly ready to move on. I know this stinks but I have to admit I believe this to be true most of the time. There is absolutelly nothing wrong with letting your wife know you do not appreciate her behavior. She WILL get angry at first - that's a given..but then...either she will come around or she won't.

Tough love is about letting your wife know that you are no longer going to tolerate her actions, but you do not do it through words. You let her know by your actions. You can take a stand and still be loving at the same time. You can become stronger by not putting yourself within her path every time she comes around. For your own protection - get out of her way. If she gets nasty, then keep your cool. Never let he see you sweat at any cost.

Right now - whether it is true or not - your wife has a pre-conceived idea of what she thinks you are. When you let her "get to you", you are just proving to her - in her mind - that you are the person she believes you to be. Does that make sense?

If you can pull away and then act nicely when she is around, then you will see a difference. My WH would "punch my buttons" on purpose. He loved to see me cry and act desparate for him. I wanted him to see my pain and I wanted him to know that everything he was saying was not true, so I would talk to him, cry to him etc., THEN God got a hold of my heart and let me know that what I was doing was useless because my WH could not see anything but himself. When I saw this - I was able to be strong for me. And when I became stong for me, my husband came around.

I am glad he came around, but I really would have been O.K. had he not. This is the beauty of plan B or Tough love. You realize that you are a valuable person even minus a spouse.

I know it seems like letting go is not fighting for your marriage, but trust me, it is. True love in it's purest form is free. God gives us a free will, even when he knows that we are making poor decisions. He attempts to show us that we are making bad decisions, but if we are determined to make those decisions anyway, He stands back and allows us to suffer the consequences. Now after we have suffered, we may admit to God that He was right - we ask for forgiveness and he graciously forgives - IF we ask.

Listen, for now your wife has left you! Let her experience life without you! She will never be able to see the good you bring to the marriage without you being totally out of the picture for a while. By allowing her to use your home and facilities, you are not allowing her to experience the consequences of her actions. She may actually hit rock bottom, look in the mirror and say what have I done? - THEN and only then can you work on your marriage. If she doesn't get to this point, you will not be able to save the marriage. It takes two. The ball is in her court now.

I hope this helps.

Howto and Redhat-
Thanks you guys for coming to my rescue. I was in such a terrible state last nite. I ended up falling asleep somewhere around 4am. I didn't set my alarm, but I still woke up early. I took a shower and wondered about my W. I can see her house from my kitchen window, and saw her take the boys to school.

Then I got an idea. At this junction, I didn't think I could botch things up any worse, so I started walking down to her house. I was about half way when she saw me on her way back from dropping the boys off. She stopped to see what I'm doing. She gave me a ride the rest of the way. We sat on her porch, and I said that I was sorry for my behavior last night... I am stronger than that and I just let myself get carried away.

Then I said that a month and a half ago, she came to me and told me that I was right... that she was living a fantasy, and she realized it. she realized that she didn't want to be with OM anymore. Part of the reason was because he wouldn't be good for our kids. And he didn't want her to have anything to our oldest boy. She defended him by saying that was because my son treats her like crap. I said it doesn't matter what the reason is, just the fact that he doesn't want her to spend time with our son or he gets mad.

Anyway, I reminded her how she told me that she wanted to try and work on our marriage. I told her that we both knew that she would have to quit her job and have NO contact w/ OM. She didn't, and as expected, he started talking bulls**t to her again... and she was sucked right back into it. I told her that i can't really blame her because I know she needs a job, but because she didn't quit, we had no chance in h*ll. She fell head first in her fantasy again, and now she's in deeper that she ever was. Her love for OM was strong, and she wasn't strong enough to fight it.

But I wanted to remind her that a few months ago she was saying the same things to me... that there is no chance for our marriage, and she wants to spend her life w/ OM. But 6 weeks ago, she changed her mind. Never say never. I reminded her that I told her months ago that her relationship wasn't going to last and she was going to realize what she's losing... and she did. And I said to her that she is going to do that again.

I told her that I just hope that she realizes if she moves w/ him to another town, and takes my boys w/ her, it's going to be much harder to get out than if she ends it now... the sooner the better. I reminded her that he's still the same guy that she didn't want to be with last month. I also advised her not to listen to his legal advice. He talks from his D last year, but it was in a different county, in a large city, and different circumstances. His advice is going to screw her over if she listens to him. He's NOT an attorney.

Then I told her that I suspected that her recovery was false from the start. I said that I still love her, and I want to leave the door open at home for her. I still want to put my family back together, and I know we could do it. But, she has to give me a chance... more than a week, like last time. She MUST quit her job, and I will help her out. I offered for her to move in w/ me, but there are boundaries that I must set. The most important one is that she must commit to trying. She must write a goodbye letter to OM, and vow to NEVER speak to him again. She must continue counselling, for both herself and as a couple. She must stop taking birth control pills. She must account for her time away from me. And she must understand that if she falters, then she's back on her own. If I get that job in another state (which I think will happen next week), she can move out with me as a family, where we can get a fresh start on everything. I know that we both need to get away from here.

I felt that if we are to ever have a chance, I felt I must offer her my help... with conditions. She told me last week that her counsellor tells her she must learn to stand on her own 2 feet, and that she doesn't need a man to stand on. She said that she can't do it, and she always must depend on someone else. So, it's either me, or it's OM.

Anyway, I said that I know she can do this. She can do it for our marriage, for our family, for our oldest son, and for herself. She can break free of his clutches... it will be tough for a while, but I know she can do it. I told her that I believe in her. I told het that I had to leave, and I gave her a hug and a kiss. As I was about to leave, I told her "you can do this, and I love you".

When i got home, I felt really good. I feel like she heard at least some of the things I said... particularly about OM and my son. She knows that if she decides to live w/ OM, our oldest son will NEVER approve of him. I had also reminded her that she could never take OM to her parent's house, or her siblings houses, either. She will be virtually abandoned... and she is/was very close to all of them before her A. She knows down inside what she will be giving up... and it won't be just me. I think that will make her think a while.

Well, a while later, she called me. She asked if she could come over and take a shower at my house (her gas has been shut off at her house). I thought about it for a minute, and I said okay. Maybe it wasn't smart, but I thought I would be a small token of the truth I told her. She came over and showered and came in the kitchen where I was. I told her that I'm not going to help her out any more, including showers, unless she can commit to me. No more bulls**t. I said that when she sees him today at work, to not listen to her crap. Tell him to leave her alone today... tell him she's not feeling well, or whatever. She needs to spend the weekend alone to think about things w/out OM or me interfering. I'm sure she'll be talking to him on the phone, though. But, anyway, I told her that I know she can do this... and one more time told her that I love her. She kissed me goodbye and went home.

Before I went to work, I bought her a single rose. I put a brief note with it that said that She can do this for us and for our family. And, of course, I wrote that I'll always love her. I put it on her car seat. Hope she didn't sit on it... those thorns are sharp.

So, now I wait. I will not take any further action. I'm going to let her wrestle with any thoughts she has... unless I am completely wrong about this, and she thinks she has tricked me into something. Regardless, I will be firm. The future of my marriage and my family are riding on this.

Now, i'm not sure if she's going to ask me if I went to my attorney Monday, like i told her that i would. But, i decided to let her take actions for the D. She's the one that wanted the D, she's the one that filed the D, she can be the one to finish it. I can't do something that I believe to be wrong. I'm just not sure what to tell her if she asks. I think I'll just tell her the truth, regardless if she gets mad at me or not.

I hope I did the right thing today. I feel good about it. Only time will tell, I suppose.

TJS

Dear John Smith:

I want to be blunt with you because I think it is needed here. You are her whipping boy. She is walking all over you and she knows she can. You have got to go to Plan B. You are still so wrapped up in what she is doing that you have forgotten how to live. You have got to get some control over your life. Just because she is acting like a selfish, out of control child doesn't mean you have to too. Your kids need you at your strongest now. Even if you are just faking. Go for the Academy Award in front of her. Cry when you are alone.

As a woman I cannot honestly say I would find you attractive in your state. You are letting her see you weak. Not to say that we have not all been weak in this whole mess but you have to put on a face of confidence. She has to feel that the man she gave up was not some cry baby whimp. But an attractive, strong, in control, confident, man who could live without me right now.

My WH sat on the fence for a long time and I threw him out more times than I could remember. It was not until I changed my attitude and said to myself that I would just stop worrying about the affair and let them go at it. I would only worry about me and my kids he could do whatever the hell he wanted but it would not be under my roof.
You have to show some self-respect. You have to. In whatever way you know how you have to frighten her, bring her to her knees wondering if she made the right choice. Let her see you at your strongest, most confident, moving ahead best. Good Luck. wu

I'm sorry TJS but I agree with wucus. Your behavior is far from attractive to ANY woman. One day you show strength and confidence to her that the M is over and you are moving on with your life, and the next day you are giving in to her requests. The image she has in her mind of you is probably that of a confused man that loves her and will wait forever for her to return, and thus she has no incentive to want to come back to the M.

While I question your latest turnaround, I can empathize with your remaining love for her and giving it your best shot to save what is left of your M. Unfortunately, I don't beleive that she will want to come back to you until AFTER you have gone into a plan B. By letting her experience what it's like not to have anymore contact with you, and letting OM taking care of all of her needs, you are giving a toxic dose of reality to her A.

Even if her A dies and she comes back to you, you will have not only the issue of marital recovery but the issue of her financial recklesness to deal with. You may as well change your name to Sisyphus from Greece.

tjs,

I am glad that you did that. Even in plan A ... doesn't mean that you can't say no. Re-read Torizo's story again. He stood firm ... loving but firm ... keep reminding her that he love her but disapproved her action. This is talking to the fog all about. You put your boundry but letting her know that you love her and still beleive in her. What you are doing is "chipping" away the wall or throwing stones in the pond ... you won't see the result right away but soone or later the wall will crumbled and the pond will be cover w/ stones.

Let her Dv you ... it will buy you sometimes.

-RH-

wucus and Coffeeguy -
I appreciate you being candid w/ me. I know exactly what you are telling me - I am acting like a spineless wuss, and that I need to stand up, regroup, and confidently move on with plan B. That's the only way I will ever get respect, and she will only want to be w/ a man that can stand his own ground, on his own 2 feet... and I should never show her my weaknesses.

But, also remember where you are in your relationships. You are both much further along than I am. You have become strong through time, but remember back when you weren't strong. We all sought guidance and comfort on the MB website to help us build strength, confidence and understanding. 2 months ago I was much stronger than I am now. I was willing to accept the consequence of Dv. I turned my back on her behavior, and concentrated on me and my boys. But,it didn't take much coaxing from my WS to let me take her back in. Although I was setting boundaries, I let her get a good grip on my heart again. It felt good to hear her tell me that she loves me again, and to feel her warm kisses on my lips. I missed it more than I realized. So, in a very short period of time, I found myself back where I was months ago. I was sucking up her lies, and remaining blind to her infidelity.

Now, I have to pull myself out of the cesspool again. I can't say that my actions are the right ones. I just want to be able to say that I have done everything I could do to bring my family back together again. I know I need to get control of myself... but sometimes it's easier said than done. I suppose I was trying to step back, remind her how I feel, and then make a decision between Dv, tough love, or plan B. But my biggest problem is that I keep changing my mind with my moods. I know I have to stop that... Make a plan and stick to it.

Redhat-
Thank you again your support on my behalf. Conflicting advice can sometimes become confusing. You've always been one who tells me to give it another try... you can do it... Go back in there and give it your best before turning to plan B. It's very encouraging. But advice from Coffeeguy (who has helped me pick myself off the floor more than once)and wucus is equally convincing and sound. Who's to say which is right and which is wrong. Maybe nothing that I do could ever stop my W's A.

But in my opinion everyone is right. I believe that it doesn't hurt to give it another go of affection before moving on to plan B. No, my plan wasn't thoroughly reviewed before I acted. But I think I achieved what I set out to accomplish. But now I agree that I need to go to plan B. I will never get respect from her unless I demand it. But whatever I do, I have a few days to think about it since she left town. She took my advice to get away for the weekend. Only, she must not have caught that part when I said away from everyone... including (and especially) OM. I figured she would go there.

Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's support when I need it. With your help and encouragement, I will make it through this, I know. I'm just realizing how difficult change can be sometimes.

TJS

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But my biggest problem is that I keep changing my mind with my moods. I know I have to stop that... Make a plan and stick to it. <hr /></blockquote>Bingo!.

If you have faith in your plan, no matter what the outcome, then you need to stick to it. Your emotions have to be guided by your reason. It was your WW's emotions that led her to her A, and your emotions that are sabotaging your plan. But do you know what your plan is?

Hey, Coffeeguy-

I'mm moving on to plan B tonite. I'm working on my letter now.

Where's your thread? I'd be interested in reading your story.

TJS

Hi TJS.

Per your request, I give you my story.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />

Fireman.

Your story hits so close to home, that reading it is very difficult for me. My xWW also thought there was nothing wrong with having PA's with different men. I too was like you in that I did my best to woo her to stop her PA's and recommitt to the M but it was useless. She not only became a horrible spouse to live with, but a horrible parent as well. Her sexual addiction became so consuming that for all practical purposes I was a widower and my children were motherless. In the end, I realized that there was nothing I could do to make her change, it was all up to her, but I had already had enough, with the last straw being that one time while I was working and she supposedly taking care our daughters, I get a frantic call from my youngest daughter, crying that she and her sister where all alone and that mommy had gone out with one of her 'friends'. Enough was enough, I left work, went home and called our county's child protective services and filed a report against her for child abandonment. My daughters were interviewed by the social worker assigned to our case, and wrotte a report documenting everything my daughters told her. I wrotte a 30 day notice of vacancy to my landlord, unbeknownst to my dear WW, started searching for another apartment, and when the 30 days were up (I chose the weekend since she never spent them with us), me and the girls were gone. I also filed for divorce and a restraining order (using the report from the social worker as evidence). Needless to say that she was extremely pissed when she found out that she no longer had a home and the RO against her. She swore to me that she was going to have one of her inmate 'friends' of hers go 'cut your balls and stuff them down your throat' (the stupid idiot left her message on my answering machine, more evidence). She was so very sure that the court would grant her sole custody of the girls and when it turned out it was not to be the case, and because of her behavior, visitation was going to be supervised. She was shocked with disbeleif because in her mind, she had done nothing wrong (HEAVY FOG).

It's been two years since my divorce was finalized, and my daughters and me have finally rid of the horror of the years living with her. I'm now in a relationship with a woman who is an adult and is mentally, emotionally, and physically healthy. And as for my xWW, she went thru a breakdown, got into therapy for her sexual addiction, and is starting to become, at the very least, the woman I perceived she was before we got married.

My point in telling you my story fireman is that I see MANY similarities between your WW and my xWW and all I can say to you is beware my friend.

<hr /></blockquote>Even though all this happened before I was even aware of MB, I still beleive that our M was doomed.

If you get anything from my story, let it be that there IS life after divorce.

As for yours truly, you know what I learned? I finally learned that there were many red flags prior to our M, that if I had given heed to I never would have asked her to marry me. What things you ask? LIES about her whereabouts, her broken promises to help me with little errands, her JEALOUSY if she saw me talking to another woman. But just like most WW's are in the fog when they are in their A's, I too was in my own fog because I was infatuated with a beautiful young woman and I did not care about those things I mentioned above. Boy did I pay a heavy price for closing my eyes to the truth.

Good luck and God bless.

[ August 25, 2002, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]

Wow, Coffeeguy. Thanks for the story. I guess I don't feel quite as bad hearing someone else's misfortune. But I'm glad to hear that the story had a good ending.

My difficulty lies with my 2 sons that live with her. I may try for custody, but if I lose, I'm afraid she will make things difficult for me and them just because she is mad. But if I win, I will have to go back to court to get permission to take them out of the state. As I already wrote, I have a really good shot at a job in California. I should find out this week. I will wait on making a decision regarding the boys until I know for sure.

Anyway, I gave her my plan B letter. This is the second one now. She sucked me back into believing that she was going to work on our marriage, but failed to tell OM. She kept him around, I suppose as security... who knows. But because of that, there was no way in h3ll that we could reconcile. I'm really bitter about this because I was moving right along, comfortable (as much as I could) knowing that we were probably headed for Dv court. But, instead, she stirred my emotions back, and now I gotta start all over gain. I think it's even harder than before because I had a glimmer of hope waved in my face, and taken away.

So, plan B is the route I took. I don't think I had any other choice. Tonite was really, really hard for me because I wanted to call her so bad. So, bad, I actually tried calling her. Fortunately, her phone was busy because she was talking to OM, no doubt. I called my friend right away when I realized my weakness. It's nice to hear from someone that tells me I'm doing the right thing, but sometimes I just need to hear it from someone else.

I know I can do this. I just gotta get through the first few days, and I'll be okay.

TJS.

A side note to my story is that my xWW has started a futile campaign to get back in my life. She has e-mailed and snail mailed me 'love' letters expressing remorse for hurting me and our daughters, that she now realizes that I was her true love, yada yada yada <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Curiously, this campaign of hers started just shortly after I started my present relationship. Even though she has as much chance of me taking her back as a snowball's chance in hell, I do feel badly for her. Despite the hell she put me and our girls thru, I do not have anymore ill will towards her and sincerely desire that she becomes an emotionally healthy woman, so that she could eventually be able to be in a relationship with somebody that loves her and be happy. You could say that I have forgiven her BUT that does not mean going back.

You know it's strange how sometimes a divorce may turn out the best thing for all parties involved.

Good luck and God bless.

Coffeeguy-
I'm glad to hear this. It's some kind of an inspiration knowing that blue skies lay ahead.

I'm not doing well right now. I feel this dark cloud looming over me. I tried to screw up my plan this morning. Fortunately God is watching over me. I tried to stop by her house this morning. I don't know what has happened to me. Normally she's home in the morning, but thank God, she wasn't today. She goes to small claims court today because someone is sueing her.

Man, I feel like s**t right now. Believe it or not, last winter my boss bought me a bottle of vodka. I started drinking it here at work. I don't have anything to worry about as far as getting fired. I answer only to one man, and he loves to drink. This just isn't like me.

What is happening to me? All I can think about is knowing that I haven't been able to spend a single holiday w/ my W in over a year, and Labor Day is next w/e. I'm sure she'll spend it w/ fat [censored].

Am I gonna make it? It hasn't even been one day and I wanna call her. f**k!

Where are my friends... this one time that I need to hear from someone to help me stabilize...

TJS,

TJS,

I feel your pain and your need to contact and share things with your WW. I too had that 'need' after separation until I realized I was doing myself more harm than good.

You see, even though you desperately want your M to 'work out' and there is always a chance it will, you have to prepare yourself if it does not work out.

Your attempts to 'connect' with your WW is partly due to fear also, IMO. If you can face your fear - be able to prepare and deal with the worst case scenerio (your M may not work out) then you have conquered your fear. You will be a stronger and appear less 'needy'. Not only would that be great in your WW's view of you, more important you will feel much better about yourself also.

Put down the bottle, that kind of behavior benefits no one.

take care.

Hi, LiveAnew,
Thanks. You are right about me being afraid. I went to my counselor today. She told me the same thing. She told me the same thing that everyone here has been trying to tell me. But, yes, I think it is fear that I fear... didn't FDR say something about that?

Something happened to me tonite that just makes me smile. I was on the phone w/ a friend, and WW tried calling. I didn't want to click over (sometimes I hate call-waiting), and so I just ignored it. She tried it twice. A minute after I hung up, she came pulling up in my driveway. She saw me in the window and she knocked. I went upstairs and told my son to get the door. He came up a minute later and said she wanted to talk to me. I waited a while debating what to do. I went ahead and answered the door. She wanted to tell me that she was going to be late getting home from work tomorrow (I told my other S to tell her I want her work schedule). I asked if that was all she needed. She asked me if I would talk, and I said I shouldn't but I will very briefly, and reminded her that I didn't want to even see her. She said that she read chap. 13 in the HNHN book I gave her last week to read (about affairs). Hmmm... interesting. She asked me if there was anything else in the book that she should read. I told her that I haven't read the whole thing, but I do have SAA which might be more appropriate. She asked if she could borrow it. I said sure, but I wanted to let her know that just because she reads the book doesn't mean that I'm willing to change the decision I made w/ plan B. She said she understood, and that she didn't expect that I would. I told her, maybe someday... but right now, I need to think about myself, my career, and my kids. I said that I still want to stay with no contact, and that I'm a little peeved that she didn't honor my decision. She appologized, and said she will be more thoughtful next time. I reminded her that even phone calls are out of the question unless it's an emergency. If she needs to tell me something, she can call my work and leave a message w/ my secretary. I will get the message. So, I gave her the book and started going back inside. Just as I was closing the door, she said "Oh.. Wait...". I cracked the door a little and she said she was going to call me regarding my son's court case tomorrow to see how it went (that's a story I'm not going to get into right now). I told her that I'll let her know, and closed the door.

Isn't that crazy? I give her my plan B letter Sunday... Tuesday she comes over and wants to borrow SAA book. She's not going to suck me back in. I had a real tough weekend, and I'm not going back where I was. I had a fairly good day today. I must regenerate my life. Maybe I should've told her leave right away. But considering how I felt yesterday, I think I did pretty good. Next time, I will be strong enough to tell her to leave sooner. But I take it one step at a time.

Okay, maybe I don't deserve a medal for tonite, but I feel good about it... and I think it made me a little stronger.

I'm still learning, Coffeeguy.

TJS

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I'm still learning, Coffeeguy. <hr /></blockquote>We ALL are TJS.

TJS,
I am glad LiveAnew & TMCM kept you company. There is no perfect plan A or plan B ... we just have to give our best shot. Remember it is the same thing as in withdrawal ... every contact in plan B set your clock back to zero.

-RH-

TJS,
You are doing better. Good Job! You have been through a lot. It is very unhealthy for your wife to keep snagging you back into her sick world. If you can manage to stay away - maybe she will get her act together. In the meantime, you need to concentrate on you - if your wife were to come back now, you would have so many emotions to deal with PLUS you will would have to be strong for her.

So take this time to deal with your emotions and get stronger. Yes, you have to be strong to win your wife back but you also have to be strong for recovery and if you aren't strong now, then recovery will be extremely tough. Does this make sense? You keep reading that your wife needs you to be strond and although this is true, you first need to be strong for yourself. It takes strength to heal.

Good luck and keep up the good work!

Looking back on the past week or so, it's really crazy how emotions can take over a person's life. I realize how pathetic I had been in front of my WW. I forgive myself for being that way because I couldn't stop myself. What I needed was for someone to b**ch-slap me a few hundred times... which, in essence, is what my friends here at MB did for me.

It's only been 3 days since plan B started, and I already feel better. I think about her a little less everyday. This weekend will help me tremendously. I plan to take all 3 boys to my sister-in-law's house to get away. She's very supportive of me. I hope to take them to an amusement park if I have the money after paying my bills. I'm really looking forward to this. I'm sure my WW will spend it w/ OM. Who really cares anyway? I'm not going to let myself dwell on that.

Something happened last Fri nite that I didn't post... I guess for fear of being chastized from my peers here at MB. I actually went to OM's house so I could have the peace-of-mind knowing that she really is w/ him. I drove by just as she was getting out of her car. He came charging out to the street when he saw me, so I stopped and got out of my car. It was the first time I ever saw him face-to-face. He's not a very attractive man. He tried coaxing me onto his property so he could "tear me apart". I wasn't stupid enough to do that - i know he file charges for trespassing and anything else he could charge me with, but told him he could come into the street where I was standing and we could rumble. Well, the testosterone went on back and forth for a few minutes... but it was really tough to see my WW there. She threatened to call the police on me, and told her to go ahead because I wasn't breaking any laws. I reminded her that she traded in not only me, but also her kids, parents and siblings for this man, and asked her if he was worth it. She looked in my eyes and firmly said "yes he is". That was enough for me. As I was getting back into my car, OM had to add that he enjoys f***ing my wife and will think about me that nite when they f*** again. That was nice to hear. But, I asked for it, I suppose.

I can't say that I regret going over there. I needed that slap of reality to help me with plan B. Sure, every moment of Sat and Sun I spent reliving that nite... wishing I would have taught him a lesson. But I know I was right in somehow maintaining my composure. But it sure helps me break free of her trance.

So, there you have it. Right or wrong, I did it... and I don't regret it.

I went to court today for my oldest son. He got into trouble last May at school for his 3rd assault charge. No, he didn't beat the tar out of anyone, but the school does not tolerate any physical confrontation regardless of who started it. My S just has a hard time turning the other cheek. He already has a hard time dealing with anger. And the crap him mom has pulled has made him very angry at the world. He was put on a ratcheted-down probation. If he messes up one time in 6 months, he will be sent to the Youth Rehabilitation Center. I started him in counselling about 6 months ago, and it seems to be helping a little. But I'm just scared to death he's going to be taken away from me. No, I can't blame my WW for all his negative behavior. But I know that it was because of his feeling that she betrayed him as his mother, he is so bitter and frustrated. And I certainly know how he feels. But through all this awful experience w/ my WW's A, my S and I are much closer than we ever have been before. But what a terrible price to pay.

I better get some sleep now before I go to work in 4 hours.

tjs

[ August 29, 2002, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

OK TJS prepare yourself to get bit** slap.

Since you have made the decision of marital recovery by implementing plan B, you may have dangerously depleted your love bank by going over to OM's house and dealing with the crap from OM and from your WW. Anymore incidents like that one and your love bank may close forever and then you may not want to reconcile with her at all. Furthermore you LB'd big time my friend, and that severely undermines plan B by pushing your WW further back into OM's arms. LOVE BUSTERS(SELFISH DEMANDS,ANGRY OUTBURSTS,DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENTS, AND ANNOYING HABITS) DON'T WORK. If you are serious at giving it one last final shot, then you need to exercise PATIENCE AND EMOTIONAL DETACHMENT. You know what patience is, right? but you may not know that emotional detachment means that for the time being, you are only married on paper, and that you will have your W back when SHE wants to come back to you and seriously committs herself to rebuild the M by going to counseling.

Now go take a couple of aspirins for that nasty bit** slapping I gave you and that you so richly deserved <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ August 29, 2002, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]

Hey Coffeeguy...
If anyone is gonna give me a necessary b**ch-slapping, I figured it would be you. I thought I probably shouldn't go, but I did. And like I said, I feel like I needed an eye-opener. I was the one that was in near denial of what she was doing. And, maybe I did send her into his arms, but, tell me... how do I exercise emotional detachment when it becomes too difficult... do I move to plan A? No... you know that wouldn't work. I needed to stop letting her walk all over me and stop letting myself be her whipping boy (as someone once put it). I put an end to that by helping myself detach emotionally. I didn't go with the intentions of either of them seeing me... I had no intentions of stopping. But, I was caught with my hand in the cookie jar.

Well, anyway, it's done and over with. Now, I have a new issue to deal with... WW just can't take a hint. I was about to leave for work when she pulled into my driveway. She wanted to know what happened to our son's court yesterday. I told her that if she would have gone, she would know. Well, I thought she has the right to know, and so I told her about it. Then started to tell me about this job she found that she wants to look into. I showed no interest and didn't say a word. I am sure she expected me to ask her about it. But instead, I told her that she is not respecting my decision of "no contact". I said that I'm not doing this to be a jerk, but I'm doing this for me. I said that the less I have to see her, the easier it is for me. She SAID and ACTED like she understood.

Well, 3 hours later while I'm at work, the phone rang and I answered it. Guess who it was? She told me she wanted to let me know that she wasn't sure what time she was getting off from work. I asked if the boys will be spending the nite, and she said no... it wouldn't be that late. So, I said that the only thing I need to know is if I need to put them to bed at my house, and it doesn't matter what time she gets off. Then she said she was going to call me around 5 o'clock to tell me when she was getting off. Geez... does she not get it?!? I told her again that I don't care what time she gets off, so don't call me back. I was really starting to get annoyed, and the tone in my voice showed.

What's going on in her head? How am I suppose to be in plan B when she keeps calling or coming over? I would have locked my doors if I saw her coming sooner this morning. Do I have to go to such extremes to ensure no contact? Now, I'm sure someone is going to remind me that I can't be in plan B if there is contact... but what can I do? Someone give me an idea cuz I'm running out. I'm not calling her, and I'm not seeing her... I'm not initiating any contact of any kind. SHE is the one that won't stop. I'm trying to be firm, but it's just not doing any good. Should I just let her babble at me, and do nothing? But even that isn't plan B.

Any ideas?

tjs

[ August 29, 2002, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

TJS,

To me, the fact that your wife is coming around says two things:
1. Deep down she is probably starting to feel that she is losing you. If this is the case, then this is a good thing. She will be willing to do what she needs to do to save the marriage. BUT don't get too excited yet, she is more than likely testing you at this point.
2. She cares. If she truly didn't care, she wouldn't come by.

I think you should continue doing what you are doing. If she comes by, continue to be polite but FIRM. Stick to your plan. Show her through your actions that you are serious about the consequences of what she is doing. I know this is hard, but do your best to NEVER let her see you sweat.

In a wierd way, she has problably been enjoying the attention of two men "fighting" over her. So take yourself out of the equation. By doing so, you will allow her to see the other man for what he is. She needs to see this this guy's true colors before she can devote herself to the marriage.

Coffee man can kick you in the butt and then I will pick you up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> BUT DO NOT GIVE UP!

Thanks HowTo. I'll need you around after Coffeeguy is done with me when I do something stupid. I know she cares, and I know she loves me. That's what is so frustrating.

And believe me, I WON'T get too excited from anything she says to me for a long time. Literally, EVERYTHING she's said to me for over a year was a lie... her words aren't worth a sack of monkey dung. Even her promise to me last month was a huge throbbing lie.

I'm not sure if I'm ready to give up completely yet. But, for Pete's sake, I need a break from her... from everything. That's why I'm leaving town tomorrow w/ my kids and won't be back until Monday nite.

tjs
_______________________________________

Oh, by the way, this post will put me up to triple digits... post #100.

... but what can I do? Someone give me an idea cuz I'm running out. I'm not calling her, and I'm not seeing her... I'm not initiating any contact of any kind. SHE is the one that won't stop. I'm trying to be firm, but it's just not doing any good.

It really doesn't look to me like you are trying to be firm. She calls, you take the call. You could hang up, but you don't.

She comes over, you talk to her. You could go in the bathroom and lock the door. You could go out the back. But, you stay and talk.

I admit, her coming over is much more dificult to cope with, but you could even just repeat over and over, " I'm not going to talk to you."

At least don't take her calls, when you can see they are not about necessarry issues with the childrens scedule, just hang up.

One thing that would make it easier would be to set up rules that govern how you deal with the children. You would only communicate with her about them at certin times, and places, or through another person. You really do need to communicate about the children, so think about making it easier for you to deal with.

Make sense?

SS

[ August 29, 2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />but, tell me... how do I exercise emotional detachment when it becomes too difficult...<hr /></blockquote>Don't you mean painful instead?

Truth: You only have a 'W' on paper but not in real life.

Truth: She has to WANT to chose you and recommitt herself ,thru counseling, in order to rebuild the M.

Truth: Her A is not about you.

If your rational mind acknowledges the above on a constant basis, your reluctantly stubborn emotional mind will eventually have no choice but to acknowledge it also. When that happens then you will have achieved emotional detachment.

As far as your plan B is concerned, don't knock yourself too hard because it is extremely difficult to implement it when children are part of the M. I agree with the poster that said you should only limit contact to discuss issues relating to the children and nothing more. So from this point on, just close the door on her face, or hang up the phone, if she tries to start small talk with you about non-children related issues.

I will leave you with another MB'er closing signature which says: Stay Strong.

Still seeking-
You're right... I could hang up, and I could slam the door in her face. Maybe I'm hoping I don't have to be that way, but it seems I have to. I guess with her, there is no such thing as being polite but firm, as HowTo suggested. It's kinda going against the grain of my emotional fabric, but I guess I gotta be that way. I've always been such a trusting and forgiving person. That's gonna have to change, for sure... at least where WW is concerned.

Coffeguy-
Yes, I meant "painful". And I'm working on being strong. I swear, today I felt stronger as the day passed. But I know getting away from her for the weekend will help tremendously.

I wish I was as strong in my heart and mind as I am in the gym. But give me a week and maybe I'll be there.

tjs

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I wish I was as strong in my heart and mind as I am in the gym. But give me a week and maybe I'll be there. <hr /></blockquote>Oh you will be TJS.

Sure you have your setbacks but hey who doesn't right?

I know what you mean by most of this stuff going against ones emotional fabric because it is not something that is intuitive by nature. Take for example love busting, and you'll see how even though all of us have done it and it felt great doing it, it simply destroys relationships in the long run. Yet it is something that we have to unlearn in order to protect our relationships.

My xWW calls my house to 'enquire' about our daughters yet every single time she calls, she tries to engage me in small chat but I just simply tell her that I don't have the time to chat and if she doesn't want to talk to our girls, then I have to say goodbye. Sure in my case it's easy because her account in my love bank has long been closed, but just like your present WW, she too does it to manipulate me by trying to control my emotions. BUT IT TOOK PRACTICE before I became comfortable in brushing her off, and now I simply laugh to myself because this little routine of hers has become something of a joke straight out of a quirky comedy. Even my lady jokes about it by asking me if I've gotten my RDA of xWW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So TJS, just like you've gotten physically strong by consistently working out at the gym, so will your emotional side become stronger by consistently practicing emotional detachment. It will save your sanity and your love.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
Truth: You only have a 'W' on paper but not in real life.

Truth: She has to WANT to chose you and recommitt herself ,thru counseling, in order to rebuild the M.

Truth: Her A is not about you.

If your rational mind acknowledges the above on a constant basis, your reluctantly stubborn emotional mind will eventually have no choice but to acknowledge it also.<hr /></blockquote>I've spent a lot of time thinking about what you wrote, Coffeeguy. The one that sticks in my mind the most is that I "only have a 'W' on paper but not in real life". Very well spoken. Although I'm not wholly strong yet, I feel much better. I spent the weekend away w/ my boys, and we had a great time. A much needed vacation. And even though I spent a lot of time thinking about all this mess, it didn't totally consume my mind.

Something quite interesting happened tonite, though. It's getting too late, so I just don't have the time to write about it now. But I will post in a day or 2 w/ the update.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
tjs

[ September 03, 2002, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

Well, Coffeeguy, I believe you are right again. My confrontation w/ OM took so much out of me. I feel really numb. I don't think I have the desire or the strength to pursue this M any longer. Just as you said, I think it took away the remaining love that I had for her. At least, I'm not ever going to be dragged through the mud by her any more... ever. I just can't ever imagine that I could ever trust her again... or even love her again. I feel some satisfaction knowing that I hung in there for 14 months. And I won't be the one to have regrets because I did so much to bring my family back together. It was her foolish decisions that put me in the state that I'm in today.

But, I do still have an update that I want to post later. It's getting late and I'm absolutely drained from all this.

tjs

[ September 04, 2002, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I feel some satisfaction knowing that I hung in there for 14 months. And I won't be the one to have regrets because I did so much to bring my family back together.
<hr /></blockquote>I'm so sorry to hear your update TJS. I wish that I had been wrong about what would have happened to your love bank when you confronted OM. That is one of the many reasons why confronting the OP is seldom a good idea.

I've often said that the greatest betrayal a WS committs is not against his/her BS but against his/herself. WS's, such as your WW, are to be pitied not hated because the worst judge they will be facing is the one that looks back at them in the mirror, and that judge tends to be mighty unmerciful when their judgement day finally arrives. It will be a day of grieving when your WW finally wakes up to all the damage she has caused to everybody that loved her, and realize that it could have been prevented.

Rest well my friend.

Hey John,
I really didn't mean to slam the door in her face. But you could say something like this.

" I am sorry, but with all that is going on I really can't see you or talk to you right now, it is tearing me apart. Please leave,
( or if on the phone, Goodbye.)

Sounds like you may be making decisions that make this moot anyway. Hang in there, many others have done this, you can too.

TMCMan, you are getting around a lot, and you are a big help to many, keep it up. ( how do you get the time? )

SS

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by still seeking:
Hey John,
TMCMan, you are getting around a lot, and you are a big help to many, keep it up. ( how do you get the time? )

SS<hr /></blockquote>I have no life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TJS

Please give us some signs of life.

TJS, have you been abducted by aliens? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Yeah I beleive I can hear an old Byrds Mr Space Man playing in the background:

Woke up this morning with light in my eyes
and then realized it was still dark outside
It was a light comin´down from the sky
I don´t know who or why

Must be those strangers that come every night
Whose saucers shaped light put people up tight
Leave blue green footprints that glow in the dark
I hope they get home all right

Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
I won´t do anything wrong
Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
for a ride

Woke up this mornin´, I was feeling quite weird
Had flies in my beer, my tooth paste was smeared
I opened my window, they´d written my name
said: "So long, we´ll see you again".

Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
I won´t do anything wrong
Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
for a ride

Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
I won´t do anything wrong
Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
for a ride

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No, Coffeeguy, I am still around. I promised you an update, but I needed a break from here for a while. But I'm back... and maybe when I'm done posting, you may wish you didn't ask...

Just like last July, I worked plan B. Well, Labor Day I came home from my weekend away. The next day when I came home from work, she was already parked in my driveway. She told me she had something to tell me, and I said only if it's about the boys. She said it was, and told me she was moving. Her mother told her (her mom told me this too) that she wants to offer a place for her so she can get away from here. Her mom knows all about OM, and wanted WS to get away from OM... not for our marriage, but simply because he will not be good w/ our boys (and I strongly agree). Now, they live about 3 states away from here... actually Phoenix. WS told me that she finally woke up and realized the kind of person OM is. She said she knows that she's doing the right thing... not just for our boys, but she said she doesn't love him like she thought she did. She told me that she felt like she was playing a role. I forget how she explained it to me, but the bottom line was that she apparently didn't love him. And the more I tried to stop her A, the more determined she was to be with OM. Well, I knew that. And, she actually wasn't spending her time w/ him. She was accountable for every place she went... except for last Sat nite when she said she was going to the bar w/ her friend from work. Turns out, she ran into a co-worker of mine at the bar and partied w/ her the rest of the nite... so, she really did go where she said she was going.

So, she wanted to get a transfer to Phoenix. She tells me that last Friday, she told OM that she was putting in her 2 weeks notice. She said that he was upset, and wanted to talk to her about it. She said that she made up her mind and didn't have anything to talk about.

Okay, so fine and dandy. So, apparently she's not seeing him anymore. It would seem true, because she's at home or over here all the time now. But, she still didn't ever tell me that she was interested in our M. I was burned once already last July w/ her false recovery, and I'm not about to go through that again. I stayed my distance emotionally. I still felt like I wanted to go through w/ the Dv, and finally wrote the stipulations I want in the Dv. Well, last Wed she asked me why I seemed so distant. I told her that I was going to see my attorney the next day to finish this over-due Dv. She started crying. I asked her why she was crying... i mean, she told me many times before that she wanted this Dv to get over. Well, she says that she thought that's what she wanted. I asked her what does she want NOW? She said that she didn't want me to go through with it. She said that she wants me to find a new job in Phoenix and that she wanted us to start fresh in a new place. I reminded her that she never said that to me before, nor has she said that she even loves me. She said that I never tell her that anymore either. Then she said that she does love me and she does want to work on our marriage. Hmmmm... So, I told her I would put it off for a while longer until both of us are sure of what we want. She said that she's sure of her decision, and she feels very happy w/ it. Well, I've her that tune before.

So, today is Saturday. She had asked me a while back if she could have a garage sale at my house because it's on a main street w/ lots of traffic. I told it would be fine, and I had a few things to sell too. She was trying to sell as much of her stuff so she won't have to move it. But, all day she just seemed kinda distant. Okay, so a few days ago she said she loves me and wants to work on the M. But she isn't showing me any indication. When I asked her if she was going out tonite, she said she didn't know. I said that she doesn't plan on doing anything w/ me then, and she said that I never asked her. I asked her why she ask me... I mean, she's moving next weekend. I thought if she really wants to do this, she might show a little effort... maybe want to spend a little time w/ me before she moves away from here. Well, she says that she's really too tired to do anything tonite anyway. The rest of the day she seemed so crabby. I asked her today exactly what OM said when she told him she was leaving him. She didn't want to talk about it. I explained that I want to get some sense of security, and I need to hear how the conversation went. Why does it need to be a secret... especially if she doesn't love him like she claims. She got mad and said that she just didn't want to talk about it. Then I started talking about how her words and her actions are conflicting. She said that she's stressed out and she's focused on moving. Well, fine, but I would expect her to show me something positive in between her moments of focus.

Maybe I should say that the past few days she's been acting this way. I mean, we did have sex 3 times the past week or so. One evening when she was over, she asked me to hold her while she was laying down. She has shown me on occasion some affection with hugs and kisses(actual kisses, not pecks on my cheek), although not a whole lot.

I dunno, what's your take on this whole thing. I've been meeting many of her ENs and have been acting very positive. But in my heart, I'm not sure... I'm just waiting for her to say that she's changed her mind again. I feel like I want to go through w/ the Dv, but I know that I can hold off for a while, too, just to see how things pan out. I do feel love for her, but I also feel very resentful. I feel that if she really wants to do this, she should be showing me that she does. I'm just not ready to let loose on this.

So, Coffeeguy, I think I've been strong. But have I been too strong? Should I be more willing since she has put her notice in at work and is planning to leave next weekend? Should I be trying harder to meet more of her ENs? Maybe Redhat can pitch in his 2 cents... I'm a little confused right now.

tjs

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thejohnsmith:
No, Coffeeguy, I am still around. I promised you an update, but I needed a break from here for a while. But I'm back... and maybe when I'm done posting, you may wish you didn't ask...<hr /></blockquote>Don't worry. I don't bite...much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I dunno, what's your take on this whole thing. I've been meeting many of her ENs and have been acting very positive. But in my heart, I'm not sure... I'm just waiting for her to say that she's changed her mind again. I feel like I want to go through w/ the Dv, but I know that I can hold off for a while, too, just to see how things pan out. I do feel love for her, but I also feel very resentful. I feel that if she really wants to do this, she should be showing me that she does. I'm just not ready to let loose on this.

So, Coffeeguy, I think I've been strong. But have I been too strong? Should I be more willing since she has put her notice in at work and is planning to leave next weekend? Should I be trying harder to meet more of her ENs? Maybe Redhat can pitch in his 2 cents... I'm a little confused right now.

tjs<hr /></blockquote>Yes I agree TJS that you've been strong and that only you TJS, and God, know what's good for TJS, but I would still like to give you my $0.02 worth if it's ok with you.

First, It does seem that her A is really over. But don't let that give you false hope, because her OM may still have an emotional card up his sleeve and may use it to suck her back into the A later on.

GUARD YOUR FEELINGS WELL AND DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING FROM HER (emotional detachment) and by this I don't mean to act distant with her, but just don't start romantizing that you've got your true love back. This may also turn out to be another false recovery and you need to be detached emotionally until you see she is serious and has taken concrete steps to rebuild the M. If she isn't then you can proceed with divorce without the pain of feeling betrayed by her once more.

DON'T BE TOO PUSHY BY PLAYING 20 QUESTIONS WITH HER. She is probably not too proud of her actions and she probably needs some quiet time to reflect on what her life has become, before she's ready to opening up to your questions. You might just want to let her know that you are here for her if she feels the need to talk later on.

And finally KEEP YOUR EYES AND EARS OPEN for any possible signs that she has started acting like she did when her A started. She may have ended it with OM but that doesn't mean that she won't fall for another and start another A. Many men and women, on these boards have WS's that had multiple A's (I used to be one of them, remember?).

Other than that, is to wish you good luck and to urge you not to abandon these boards. You may not beleive it, but your experiences can be of great value (strength and inspiration) to others that might come to these boards with similar difficult situations.

I'll be keeping an eye for you and be ready to whack you over the head with a 2x4 when you so richly deserve it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ September 15, 2002, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]

Yes, keep posting. I am entering plan B (with kids) and would love to hear more from you.

Maybe she is in withdrawal. Consider a recovery agreement before you decide to move to Phoenix.

thejohnsmith,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />So, Coffeeguy, I think I've been strong. But have I been too strong? Should I be more willing since she has put her notice in at work and is planning to leave next weekend? Should I be trying harder to meet more of her ENs? Maybe Redhat can pitch in his 2 cents... I'm a little confused right now.
<hr /></blockquote>Unless you are in plan B, you have to meet all her ENs as long as she allows you to. In plan B there should be none at all. To break from plan B ... follows TMCM's advice ... proceed w/ cautious. Sit her down and tell her that you are still want to work on M but you don't want to get hurt again. Please do nothing. Do not do anything on trying to go back to plan A ... until you are 100% sure that she is fully committed. Go with your gut feeling, you know her more than us ... see her actions.

Hope this time she is doing the right thing.

-rh-

I haven't had my computer connected for a while since I'm moving... just across town, not out of the state.

Thanks, Redhat, for your advice. But, unfortunately, exactly what I feared did occur... another false recovery. It's a little hard for me to figure this out. She was so certain that for the first time in a year she made the right decision. She told me several times that she was happy with her decision. She held a garage sale at my house last weekend and sold much of her furniture, including her refrigerator. Two days ago, though, I went in the sore where she works. I didn't go to see her, I just went to but something that I needed. Well, Guess who I saw pull in the parking lot... OM. And, she was w/ him. She saw me going in the store, and she met me at the door. She said "what are you doing?" in a real chirpy tone. I ignored her and went in to get what I came for. She tracked me down in that isle and asked me how I was again. I asked her how her lunch went and she said fine. I asked her why she went to lunch w/ OM, and she even rode to and from another town w/ him to another store. I expressed my disapproval by telling her that if she wanted to end things w/ OM, she needed to stop talking w/ him and stop having lunch, for Gods sake. She got mad and walked away.

Well, that night, I went down to her house. I asked her why she had lunch w/ him and ride out of town w/ him. she said she didn't do anything wrong. I disagreed, and said that she's suppose to be having no communication w/ him. But since he is her boss, she must make sure that everything they talk about is work-related until she leaves for Phoenix. Then I ask her if she asked for her transfer to Phoenix. She said she didn't. Then she tells me that she doesn't have enough money to move down there now, and said that she can't afford the cost-of-living.

So, I said "you're not going now, are you?" she said no. I asked her if she is back w/ OM again, and she said yes. Well, at least she didn't lie to me this time. We talked for a while, and I can see that she's deep in the fog again.

So, now that she sold her refrigerator and much of her furniture, I asked her what her plans are... is she moving in w/ OM now? she said she wasn't sure yet. Well, what else will she do? Of course she's going to move in w/ him.

I knew this was going to happen... i could feel it. But, at least now that I moved, I no longer live right down the street from her. I think that will help me quite a bit.

Now I'm back in plan B for the 3rd time. I didn't write her a letter, I just told her not to contact me. She's taking my boys to OM's house for the weekend... something she hasn't done for 3 months or more. She's really caught up in it again. It's too bad, because i don't think I can do this again. I went through the final paperwork w/ my attorney today. Who knows what the future will bring for the 2 of us, but for quite a long time now, I will avoid her like the plague.

Better luck next time, I guess.

tjs

I'm so sorry about your latest development with your WW.

I'm not surprised about the false recovery and Redhat and I did tell you proceed with caution and not to get your hopes up.

Well at least you can't say that you did not give her a chance before proceeding with plan B. If you proceed with plan B, try to find an intermediary to act as a go between you and her on issues regarding your kids wellbeing, but if you can't get one, then stick to as bare bones a conversation as you can get regarding your children. Do not talk, or let her suck you into talking about the M, OM, or the divorce. Be polite in all your dealings with her but firm in your resolve not to let her use you as a doormat anymore.

Your wife is in the cake walker stage of her A with OM, and she'll try to have you be there for her for the things that OM can't give her. It is up to you to realize this and act accordingly to your best interests and those of your children.

Hey TJS what's happening in your part of the world?

Mrs TJS.

Can TJS come out and play? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey, Coffee guy...
What happened to your signature line... I hardly knew who you were.

Much has happened since my last post. Unfortunately, I don't have time to fill you in right now. I'll try to get some free time tomorrow.

But in a nutshell... the big D is going through.

tjs

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thejohnsmith:
Hey, Coffee guy...
What happened to your signature line... I hardly knew who you were.<hr /></blockquote>I put it in the closet to give it a little bit of a rest, but I plan to bring it back soon if popular demand screams for it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Much has happened since my last post. Unfortunately, I don't have time to fill you in right now. I'll try to get some free time tomorrow.

But in a nutshell... the big D is going through.

tjs<hr /></blockquote>Sorry to hear that, but I await the details tomorrow.

In the meantime, get plenty of rest and take care of the little ones.

Okay, here it is…

Last time I wrote that WW was going to OMs house for the weekend. Well, she's been there ever since. She moved her stuff to storage and moved in w/ OM 2 weeks ago last Fri. The following week, I moved my stuff to another town 15 miles the other direction. So, now we are about 70 miles away from each other. That helps considerably.

Tomorrow will be my boys’ first day back to school. She didn’t send them to school for 2 weeks now. I have been working w/ my attorney on custody, which I feel very confident I will get them. Anyway, I hadn’t talked to her for over a week, when last Wed she calls me at work. She told me how nice it was to hear my voice and told me how much she misses me. I didn’t say anything. Then she asks me if I plan on taking the boys this weekend and I said I did. Then she asked me if I wanted to have lunch the next day. I told her that I didn’t want to. So, she asked me if I want to have lunch with her Friday. I asked her why she wants to have lunch with me so bad. She said that she wanted to talk to me. I just told her that I wasn’t going to be able to have lunch with her at all. That was about the end of that conversation.

Thursday, she called me 4 times at work. I didn’t talk to her much, but I didn’t hang up either. I’m not in plan B anymore. There is no reason for me not to talk to her because I don’t want her anymore. Don’t say that you’re sorry to hear that... I know that I can’t do it anymore. My love for her is gone, and I know it. Well, Friday, my oldest S got into some trouble at school, and I had to pick him up. When I got there, the school had also contacted her and she was standing outside the school. I asked her what she was doing, and she said that she wanted to see me. She told me that it was good to see me and told me how much she misses me. Then she hugged me and started to cry. I told her that I had to go inside to deal with our S. She followed me inside the school and we talked for a few minutes. She said that she quit her job. I didn’t ask why, but I’m sure she sacrificed her job so her lover won’t lose his job when or if their employer found out they are living together now. She looked like a wreck, and cried the whole time we talked. I didn’t stay long, and I took my S home.

So, yesterday (Saturday), she came over to drop off my other 2 boys for the weekend. I hugged the boys and gave them kisses. The she asks me “where’s mine?”. So I gave her a hug and a peck on her lips. I walked her back outside to her car and she stood there looking at me. I asked her if there was something she wanted to say to me. she asked me if I had been looking for a new job. I told her no. she said that she was hoping I could find a new job so we can all get out of here. I told her that if I get a new job, she isn’t coming with me. She started crying again. I looked at her in disbelief. Here this woman is living w/ a man and we’re still not divorced, yet I’m suppose to want her to come with me if I move out of state? So, I had to give it to her straight... directly and honestly from my heart. I told her that I don’t want to be with her anymore. I explained to her that I realize that I have been dead for the past year, and I just finally realized that I want to live again. I don’t want to just exist. Now I’m redefining my life and who I am. I have changed so much since her affair, and I’m still learning about myself. I told her that I hope she learns some things about her affair and poor decisions someday, too. I also told her that I know one day I will meet someone that can treat me good... with respect and dignity and consideration. Someone that can make me feel good and wants to spend time with me. Then she said that she wishes she could be that person. I told her that she had many, many chances to be that person, even up to just 2 weeks ago. But, now it’s too late. She also told me how depressed she is and that sometimes she doesn’t even want to live anymore. I told her that she needs to see her doctor so she can get on some antidepressants… it helped me when I felt that way (ironic twist, isn’t it?). Somewhere in this conversation, she stared hugging me and told me to not let go of her. I hugged her for a while, and then I told her that one day this will be all over and we will both be happy. She was bawling her eyes out and said that she will never be happy because she will never have me. I stepped back, looked her in her eyes, and reminded her that she told me just 2 weeks ago that OM makes her happy and our divorce will make her happy, and that now she is getting everything she wanted that was suppose to make her happy. By this time, snot was bubbling out of her nose when she told me that she loves me and she doesn’t want to be w/ OM. I just said I’m so sorry, but she made her decision when she left me for the last time to be w/ OM... now I've made mine. Then I said goodbye, and went inside.

It did hurt me to see her like that, but at the same time I felt incredibly relieved. I actually felt good about it... not because I saw her in pain, but because I know that I’m over her. She will never, ever again put me through such pain like she did. I realize now that I will never be happy with her. Anyway, today, I met WW at a mutual location so I can give her the boys. She followed me around as I hugged and kissed the boys goodbye and put their stuff in her car. When I leaned inside her car, I saw OM’s cell phone and a new pack of cigarettes she must have just bought for him while she was out. That was stark reality once again showing its ugly head. She was standing around waiting for me to hug her or something, but I just got into my truck, said goodbye and smiled at her as I drove away, leaving her there standing by her car.

I don’t envy her. Just like you once told me, Coffeguy... she is the one that she must face in the mirror every day knowing what she has done to her family. She is in such misery... and I think it's just the beginning of a terribly long and awful journey. Well, I suppose it’s her turn now. But, this was the path she chose, and I can’t turn back the hands of time.

I think I’m well on my way to recovery. It's not exactly the way I wanted things, but I can’t change the way I feel. Who knows, maybe one day... but it won’t be any time soon. Take care everyone. I will still post, but probably on a new thread on the “divorced” forum.

tjs

Well TJS I'm glad that you are much more stronger than a couple of weeks ago when she was playing her usual game of it's-time-to-yank-TJS's chain-again. Your stbxw has some very serious emotional issues that she does not want to address and beleives that the only way to make herself feel good is by having two men in her life. She seems to have a fear of allowing herself to rely on one man to satisfy all her EN's and what is ironic is that in the end she'll lose both of you (she's already lost you, OM is next to give her the boot).

She is not fit to be the custodial parent by any stretch of the imagination and you and your attorney should fight tooth and nail to make sure the court realizes how unfit an individual she really is and how the children would suffer in her care.

If you divorce her, she may finally crash and burn and realize that she needs serious medical help. It happened with my xWW after we got divorced and she lost custody of our daughters, she finally hit rock bottom and subsequently took the steps to start healing her fractured psyche thru psychological therapy. My xWW is finally showing signs of recovery and has started to live her life in a much more healthier way than when we were married, albeit all too late for me to even care about going back to her. It's sad that our x and stbx spouses are victims of themselves and that they will never get on the path of recovery until something earth shattering happens to them to wake them up to the horrible reality they have helped forged for themselves.

Don't be a stranger and keep us updated.

thejohnsmith,

BS does plan A and then plan B while waiting for WS separated from OP. It is too bad that WS's fog is lifted after soo much damage has done to BS. You still have a chance. I really sugest you to think it over ... in MB, as long as both spouse are willing to end the A properly and recover under 4 rules of recovery, the M will be restore to a better and fullfiling M than the past. Subside your anger and think it over what ammends will satisfy you ? Think w/ "if she could" not "if she would not would not do". This is for you. I know we all are ready to move on w/ or w/o WS ... but you have kids and she is always be the mother of your kids. She is willing to move out and start fresh w/ you and isn't this what you have ask for a few weeks ago ?. I know you don't want to get hurt again and you are in control now but IMVHO care & protection & time will heal our wounded heart ... Tjs, I am ready also to move on w/ or w/o my WW and next week I might finalized my Dv and WS is still deep in the fog. You know what, if she asked I will send her to SH, finalized my Dv but the delay the Dv decree 'till the end of the year. It is for her to convinced me that we could have fullfilling M and I will relay on SH's judgement.

Think it over ... people could change & the scar that A does will be healed w/ time. You have to put more energy to find "someone"
than let her to try to be that "someone". The question is what amends that she has to fill in and that depends on you. IMVHO, make a list of amends that you need to convince yourself. The key are repentance, greif what was loss, making ammends ...

What ever you decide, you have done more share on your part in this M by trying in the past few months. I just hate it when you waste your good effort and let go a tiny chance of reconciliation & recovery.

-rh-
-RH-

TJS:

Redhat makes some very good points here. I think that all 2 often people misinterpret plan A/B as some sort of contest of wills between the BS and the WS. It sure looks 2 me like your W is trying 2 break out of her si2uation, but she doesn't have a clue as 2 how 2 do this. Have you urged that she get counseling? Also, why not try what Redhat suggests and make a list of ammends that she could follow 2 demonstrate her resolve 2 heal herself and her M, if she really wants 2. Much of what you say she's said and done recently sounds like she simply has no idea what 2 do next. I know none of that makes sense, but YOU aren't in the fog, SHE IS. Sure, you could go straight 2 a firm plan B or even DV, and let her crash and burn on her own. But since you're not in plan B by your own admission, why not give this a wirl. What do you have 2 lose?

Remember, this woman is the mother of your kids, and always will be.

Redhat & 2Long.

The problem is that the false recoveries that TJS has gone thru with his WW have been the deadliest blows to his love for his WW, more so than her A with OM. Our resident MB coach, Cerri has stated that the start of the recovery process is a very vulnerable time where many M's don't make it. In TJS's case there doesn't seem to have been a truly serious effort on the part of his WW to committ on a plan of action for marital recovery, and since TJS had accepted her back before, she didn't seem to feel she was in any danger of losing him if she continued to play both him and OM. Now that TJS has stated that he's lost all of his love for her, she finally is realizing that she has lost him for good. Unfortunately she has cried wolf too many times and now she's probably finally realizing she's going to have to pay the consequences of her behavior.

TJS.

2Long closed his post by reminding you that she is the mother of your children and I too want to remind you of that fact. So it behooves you, for the sake of your children, to not act vindictive towards her since you are going to have to deal with her for a long, long time to come.

While nobody but you can say enough is enough, I humbly suggest that you make certain that you are truly over her. It would be very sad that after the divorce you started being haunted by the woulda,coulda,shoulda that many divorced people go thru after they have moved on.

TMCM:

You know more about TJS's story than I do. I can see where you're coming from in your posts.

TJS. I wish you all the best for a happy future. Your WW may need 2 experience life without you in it before she can have a rewarding future of her own.

Good luck,

TMCM & TJS :

I follow TJS very closely and also advocating for him to go to plan B. However I just pointed out that when WS is out of the fog ... give them the benefit of the doubt. Of course not with open arm and red carpet home, not even canceling his Dv. I just want TJS to relook one more time and put all the percaution to protect himself. If TJS set his mind I respect his choice and support his choice ... however it looks a wasted plan A/B to me.

-rh-

Thanks you 2long for your words. And a very special thanks to you both Redhat and Coffeeguy. You have both been with me very close from the start of my posts. I have learned from you both, although you have quite a different perspective.

I hope you stay tuned... much has happened today. I got a call this morning at work from WW. The first thing she said to me was that she loves me. She started crying again and she started pleading with me to take her back. She said she promises to be a good wife this time. She told me she misses me and she is sorry for all the terrible things she has done to me. She said that she has something wrong with her, and she doesn't what to do. She says that she knew she loved me, she knew she shouldn't be with OM, and she knew that she was splitting apart the family.... but she didn't know how to stop it. My God, she was crying so hard... I have never heard her like this. She kept saying over and over that she's sorry, she loves me, and she wants to come back home. I asked her to stop doing this. I told her I love her, but I just can't do it anymore. That was the conversation in a nutshell... although it was about 30 minutes.

Then she called me again tonite with the same thing. So, I told her that she needs to get some help. She agreed that she needs help and promised she was going to. Then I said that right now I can't take her back. But with time, after I have healed from my wounds, we can start talking about things. Maybe I will feel different in a few months. Who knows...

But right now, I just feel so wiped out. She took so much from me... she just kept taking and taking and taking... until there was no more to take. My love is at a minimum. Yes, I love her... she is the mother of my children. But she is also the giver of the pain I suffered for so long. So, she needs to get her self back together, and I need to get myself back on track, before either one of us can even think about being together.

So, her new plan is this... she is moving down to Phoenix and move in with her parents. She's suppose to do this Friday. I'll believe it when I see it. She's cried wolf so many times, I have a hard time believing anything she says to me. Regardless of what she does, I am continuing my plan with my life without her and pushing forward with the divorce. Perhaps there may be a possible future for the 2 of us... but it won't be today. I need some time away from her for a while. I need to rest and calculate my future.

tjs

[ October 08, 2002, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]

TJS

Her fear is NOT a good reason for taking her back because once that fear is gone she'll go back to business as usual. The only true thing in her conversation with you was when she told you that she knew that there was something wrong with her (oh boy is that an understatement <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). Unfortunately the only way that OM will disappear from her life is when he becomes so fed up with her that he literally kicks her lovely butt out on to the street (we've seen what a beautiful disposition he has, haven't we?). Good ol' crash and burn will hopefully etch in her mind what a tragically bad choice having had an A truly was for her. She'll finally see that her actions had consequences afterall. I pray that she opens her heart to God and receives from him, his comfort and wisdom to help her live a much more healthier life for her and her children sakes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by thejohnsmith:
.... Then I said that right now I can't take her back. But with time, after I have healed from my wounds, we can start talking about things. Maybe I will feel different in a few months. Who knows... <hr /></blockquote>
Then why not postpone your Dv until you are sure about it ?.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />But right now, I just feel so wiped out. She took so much from me... she just kept taking and taking and taking... until there was no more to take. My love is at a minimum. Yes, I love her... she is the mother of my children. But she is also the giver of the pain I suffered for so long. So, she needs to get her self back together, and I need to get myself back on track, before either one of us can even think about being together.<hr /></blockquote>I am not advocating to work on plan A/B at all let alone taking her back, I am telling you to let her work it out w/ condition that you put out. I am well aware that you are hurt and drag on the bumpy road by this A. Again I really beleive you should put list of ammends and let her work on it. She has to write NC letter and cut OM completely. She might have to live with her mom for awhile as a cooling period between two of you. I really sugest that you call SH or Jennifer to make an appointment for your WW. Protect yourself but don't lock the door completely ... she is knocking the door, you have to answer it w/ list of ammends and let her open that door ... What you are doing now is lock the door and throw away the key. Explain to her all the hurt and feeling that you have then list the ammends and let her know that it is up to her to work on M until then there is no talk of getting back, no expectation. Let her call MB to guide her. After all your effort and hurt, is that a lot to ask ? -RH-

Redhat.

Beleive it or not, I agree with your viewpoint but right now TJS is burned out and I beleive that he needs to rest and get away from the emotional storm (of his WW's continuing A) for awhile. Maybe, like he said, in a few months he might think along the lines of your suggestions, but for now his emotional energies are depleted and he needs rest badly. He needs to have as little as possible contact with her, child related issues notwithstanding, to start to rebuild himself emotionally.

Also, it'll probably be a couple of months before his divorce becomes finalized, and during that time his WW may start getting serious about getting help to overcome her addiction to OM and other personal issues that feed said addiction. If she follows her words with positive changes, TJS may decide to stall the dv to see if said changes are permanent. But it's up to her to demonstrate to him that she is salvageable as his wife. The time for fence sitting is over.

TMCM ... I know I am pushing TJS a bit more ... and I know you understood well my intention. TJS could still do all what you are saying but not leaving the door completely lock up while he is tending his wound. Yes, WS has to do all the work ... but what work ? TJS has to tell her what ammends she should do and how long ...

This is very critical point !. You have to give them hope if they do the right thing good thing will come to their way. TJS could continue w/ his plan B if he wants to ...

Listen, all I ask for TJS to make a list of ammends and give it to WW and let her know that she has to convinced him that this time is different ... and she has to rebuild trust !. I am not advocating to take WW back now as is ... I am trying to give her a way to reconcile if she wants it.

I think you have a post of your list at one point <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

-RH-

Redhat.

You'll get not argument from me, and in fact you are preaching to the converted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

There's a pretty strong possibility that TJS may give his WW a list of ammends to fulfill in order for him to let her get back into his life. But I beleive that TJS may let his WW suffer a little bit in order to see if her desire to be his W again is genuine or only a temporary coming out of the fog. If she is up to the task then she'll end her A with OM, send OM a no contact letter, and commit herself to a plan of marital recovery that includes counseling with an MB oriented counselor. But if she is not, then TJS will be able to say that he gave her more than enough chances to turn things around. But in the meantime I beleive that it might be prudent to give him some breathing room.

TJS.

Just want you to know that whatever you decide to do, you have our support. Of course that doesn't mean that occasionally we won't indulge ourselves to hit you over the head with a virtual 2x4 or slap your face silly with the virtual rubber chicken. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TMCM:

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> There was a great cartoon many years ago, that had a guy in a lab coat with a clipboard and pencil, jotting down notes. All around him were rubber chickens - some laying on the ground and many more floating in the air. The caption simply said "The effect of rubber chickens on the atmosphere."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I still giggle when I picture it!

2Long.

That is funny. It sounds like one of Gary Larson's Far Side cartoons.

I hope that we can make TJS laugh a bit with our twisted sense of humor. He probably needs a few laughs right now.

Hey, I thought I would bump my old post up.

So, Redhat and Coffeeguy, I’m back with my update.

Redhat, you suggested to me to give her a list… and I did. My list was verbal and very short. But, first and foremost was that she was to send OM a letter and end all communication with him. She was to go to counseling… I suggested a MB counselor, but if she found one she liked better, that would have been fine, too.

She came over to my house the day before she left for Phoenix. She hugged me and kissed me like she never did since we were dating. She had passion and sincerity. She commented on how excited our boys were to see us together like this. My heart softened. Later, we made love. I felt a feeling from her that I haven’t ever felt before. It wasn’t an act… it was real. And I melted.

The next day, she stopped by my work to say good-bye on her way out of town. She cried and cried. I started to cry, too. I hugged my boys and told them I love them and I will miss them terribly. They started to cry, too. She told me she loved me so much. When I came home that evening, she had left a note on my desk. It said…

[ me and son] – I love you both so very much! Let’s get dad a job somewhere and I’ll meet you there. love you both! XXXOOO [W]

She called me once that weekend from her parents house when she finally made it there. That was a week ago Saturday. She hasn’t called to talk to me since. She has called to talk to my son, though, several times. So, I had to call her last week to see what is going on. She was quite short when she talked. I asked her how she feels about things now. She said she’s not sure. I asked her if she has been talking to OM, and she said yes. In fact, she told him that she was leaving so she could get her head cleared. She kept him on a string. She told me that he wants her to come back and live with him. She was the one to call him. She made the decision to not call me, but instead call OM… even though she said she wasn’t going to talk to him ever again.

Two days later, she went back to him. Now she is cold with me again. She says she doesn't love me and wants the divorce. She doesn't even miss me. She has made her mind up and she says this time she is sure. She wants to spend the rest of her life with OM.

I can’t go through this anymore. She hurt me so very deeply this time. I saw her taking the right steps toward recovery, and it got me back in her spell. But I can’t say that I didn’t expect it. It would think that it is much easier this time than any of the other times. But it isn't. In fact, this is the most difficult one of all. This was her fourth false recovery. I cannot go through this with her any more. I will not do it again. I cannot let her in my life to cause more turmoil. I said this before, and I did quite well. I need to leave her in the past.

Lately, I’ve been idle with my Dv. But now, I’m going fast and furious to end this crazy mess. I gotta get custody of my boys, and I gotta end this marriage before she drives me insane. I don't feel that emotionally strong right now, but I don't feel that weak either. I just feel kida dazed. But I do feel like I'm recovering from this very quickly... probably since I kinda expected this. There is no doubt that I love her very, very much. I think I always will. But also I realize that I cannot be happy with this woman, and that I must finish this once and for all.

So, I'm ready for my rubber chicken slaps. I can't say that I would have handled this any other way. I don't have any regrets this time around. Its not strength that I lack, but its sorrow that I feel. I feel so sorry for her, but I know that this is her choice and must face the consequences for her actions. Redhat, you told me that I was locking the door and throwing away the key. Actually I kept the door unlocked the whole time. When I opened the door for her, she wouldn't come in. But she just kept knocking and knocking. I'm not gonna answer the door anymore.

But the story isn't over there. Yesterday I signed the custody papers. She got them today and called me. all I could do was say for her to talk to her attorney about this, not me. she called me a [censored], told me she hope I die, and hung up. I'm gonna need new strength for the next bout. The ball is rolling...

tjs

Oh well, can't say that I'm surprised by her behavior. She is after all like a drug addict who won't give up her favorite drug (OM).

When you go to plan B, you stop enabling her addiction and she gets scared and comes crying to you and telling you how sorry she is and how much she loves you. Unfortunately, before she can prove, with deeds, that she is serious about rebuilding the M, you drop plan B and switch to plan A. She then feels secure enough that she's got you once more in the palm of her hand, and continues with her A. Well now you know why taking the word of a liar before getting proof is a bad idea.

Even if your divorce were to be finalized tomorrow morning, she will still try to play this little game of hers with you and OM. The question is will you let yourself get sucked in to her sick game again and again? Only you can answer this.

For what it's worth, you do sound stronger than in previous posts.

Don't be a stranger and keep us updated on your situation.

Good luck and God bless.

tjs ...

Sorry to hear that but one thing you know ... you had given your absolute best, time to move on and wrap thing up. I did the same w/ my WW. I have no contact w/ WW, full steam ahead and don't even miss her a beat no more. Down the road you could tell her that you had given her every single chance.

How is your job search ?.

-RH-

Dear TJS,

I am sorry things are still on that darn A roller coaster for you and your children. See? She is still very much in the fog. Her moments of sanity are far and few inbetween.

TJS, let her know that you will deal with her when she is sane but when she is disrespectful as last stated then you will have to seek other options (don't tell her what they are). Let those you can know that due to her chosen association with the OM, she wished you dead.

Now you go and protect you and your children's rights. Let your lawyer know that her irrational behavior does not make a safe environment for you and your family and you need safe options.

This is a hard time for you but you have been through this before and I sense that you are plain tired of going on this ride. You choose to get off.

Even if she should show signs of turning around, don't be quick to settle for little scraps of affection. Let her know that while she 'might' be welcomed back, it is up to her to show her worth. Remind her of words that made you not feel safe. That way she is dealing with her words not yours. You'd be surprised how the WS have that knack for twisting our well intended words.

take care,
L.

coffeeguy
yes, i feel much stronger this time around. i'm not so sure if she's gonna try this again for a while. she got the letter for our custody yesterday, and she was pipin hot. she told me she's gonna try to dig up anything and everything she can on me for court. i'm sure that she and her dream man have cooked up plenty of lies about me. she's in the fog deeper that ever before. she also told me she's going to take my oldest boy back. well, he refuses to live with her.. especially while she lives w/ OM. she's getting that slap in the face of reality.. and she's gonna end up with nothing.... nothing but OM. she says he's worth it... we will see.

Redhat-
well, it looks like you might agree to finally give up. when i hear this from you, the eternal optimist, i feel comforted knowing that i'm doing the right thing. i don't think anyone could say that i didn't give it my best shot. you encouraged me at times i didn't think i could continue. but, unfortunately, she seems to be a lost cause. now my concentration is on my boys and getting them back.

she has moved the boys 3 times in 6 weeks, put them in 3 different schools, and took them out of school for 3 weeks. she's unstable and irrational, and i'm not gonna let her drag my boys through the mud while she tries to wander through life blindfolded. my attorney says that i have an 'excellent' case. its sad that our court date is the day after her b-day. she also has a warrant out for her due to bad checks. when she loses the boys in court that day to me, she's going to be hauled off to jail. and to make things worse for her, her attorney tried to withdraw from this case cuz she wasn't paying him anything. well, he went to court for that last week and the judge denied him. so, now she has an angry attorney that knows he's not gonna get paid. she's in for a ride...

Orchid-
hey, its been a long time since i heard from you. and, as always, your comments and advice is always welcome.

its funny how you wrote about her twisting my words.... but it even funnier that she twists her own words to suit her mood. she has done this several times, and yesterday was probably the worst. when she called me, i mentioned a few things she told me previously. well of course, she denied saying them and tried to change the things she said before. then told me i never listen to her. well, honey, your twisted little mind is gasping for air. tell me anything you want, but i know the truth - but if it makes you feel better about yourself....

so, here ends a long and tiresome chapter and a new chapter begins. it certainly cannot be any worse than it has been. i'm ready to go full steam ahead with no regrets... and thats the way it should be.

i think i'm gonna start a new thread in the divorced forum. hope to hear from you all again. and you know... it would be nice to hear about things going on in your life as well. maybe you can fill me in, or tell me where your current thread is posted if you have one currently.

god bless you coffeeguy, redhat and orchid. you are great friends.

tjs

TJS:

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Look, I'm very sorry for all this hurt you've experienced. I'm also very sad for your WW. She seems at times 2 be desparately grasping for... ...and that's the problem, she has no clue what it is that she needs. So instead, she's falling back 2 the immitation love that her OM gives her. Now that reality is going 2 hit her full force, I can only wonder just how long OM will be willing 2 keep up the facade? Not long, I bet.

It's very sad that your WW can't find "her way". Until she does, unhappiness is probably the only thing anyone can guarantee her.

Take care, TJS. Love your kids, love yourself, and yes, even love your W from a distance, just don't expect anything in return and you won't be hurt anymore.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />She has moved the boys 3 times in 6 weeks, put them in 3 different schools, and took them out of school for 3 weeks. she's unstable and irrational, and i'm not gonna let her drag my boys through the mud while she tries to wander through life blindfolded. My attorney says that i have an 'excellent' case.<hr /></blockquote>Even though your WW did not have multiple A's like my xWW, her behavior is so similarly out of control that it looks like you too have an excellent chance of obtaining custody of your kids (I have physical custody of my two girls). Just make sure your attorney knows that you want him/her to go for your WW's jugular in your custody fight. For your kids sake, no legal mercy to this woman inhabiting the body of your long gone loving wife.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Its sad that our court date is the day after her b-day. she also has a warrant out for her due to bad checks. when she loses the boys in court that day to me, she's going to be hauled off to jail. and to make things worse for her, her attorney tried to withdraw from this case cuz she wasn't paying him anything. well, he went to court for that last week and the judge denied him. so, now she has an angry attorney that knows he's not gonna get paid. she's in for a ride...<hr /></blockquote>Boy is that last one an understatement. If you read my story, you'll see that it took my xWW a divorce and losing custody of our daughters to finally start turning her life around. If your WW loses custody of your boys, gets arrested and serves time for writting bad checks, OM will have to assume all responsability for her and this means that he's going to have to spend plenty of money on her. How long do you think OM's fantasy will survive under those circumstances? What are the chances that he will be waiting for her with open arms once she's released from jail? Your stbxWW will crash and burn just like my xWW, just stick around and watch the fireworks.

The main thing is you gave your best. I was concern about you since I detected slight "uncertainty" on your post. I wanted you to explore that possiblity for you to put a final closure on her. Yes, when WW is on her deep fog, anything is possible. I just got a report that OM bought a coke & went into restroom w/ my WW !!!. She was working at non profit in Drugs & Tobacco Control & big advocate of no smoking. Go figure.

-rh-