Hey Coffeeguy...
If anyone is gonna give me a necessary b**ch-slapping, I figured it would be you. I thought I probably shouldn't go, but I did. And like I said, I feel like I needed an eye-opener. I was the one that was in near denial of what she was doing. And, maybe I did send her into his arms, but, tell me... how do I exercise emotional detachment when it becomes too difficult... do I move to plan A? No... you know that wouldn't work. I needed to stop letting her walk all over me and stop letting myself be her whipping boy (as someone once put it). I put an end to that by helping myself detach emotionally. I didn't go with the intentions of either of them seeing me... I had no intentions of stopping. But, I was caught with my hand in the cookie jar.

Well, anyway, it's done and over with. Now, I have a new issue to deal with... WW just can't take a hint. I was about to leave for work when she pulled into my driveway. She wanted to know what happened to our son's court yesterday. I told her that if she would have gone, she would know. Well, I thought she has the right to know, and so I told her about it. Then started to tell me about this job she found that she wants to look into. I showed no interest and didn't say a word. I am sure she expected me to ask her about it. But instead, I told her that she is not respecting my decision of "no contact". I said that I'm not doing this to be a jerk, but I'm doing this for me. I said that the less I have to see her, the easier it is for me. She SAID and ACTED like she understood.

Well, 3 hours later while I'm at work, the phone rang and I answered it. Guess who it was? She told me she wanted to let me know that she wasn't sure what time she was getting off from work. I asked if the boys will be spending the nite, and she said no... it wouldn't be that late. So, I said that the only thing I need to know is if I need to put them to bed at my house, and it doesn't matter what time she gets off. Then she said she was going to call me around 5 o'clock to tell me when she was getting off. Geez... does she not get it?!? I told her again that I don't care what time she gets off, so don't call me back. I was really starting to get annoyed, and the tone in my voice showed.

What's going on in her head? How am I suppose to be in plan B when she keeps calling or coming over? I would have locked my doors if I saw her coming sooner this morning. Do I have to go to such extremes to ensure no contact? Now, I'm sure someone is going to remind me that I can't be in plan B if there is contact... but what can I do? Someone give me an idea cuz I'm running out. I'm not calling her, and I'm not seeing her... I'm not initiating any contact of any kind. SHE is the one that won't stop. I'm trying to be firm, but it's just not doing any good. Should I just let her babble at me, and do nothing? But even that isn't plan B.

Any ideas?

tjs

<small>[ August 29, 2002, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]</small>

TJS,

To me, the fact that your wife is coming around says two things:
1. Deep down she is probably starting to feel that she is losing you. If this is the case, then this is a good thing. She will be willing to do what she needs to do to save the marriage. BUT don't get too excited yet, she is more than likely testing you at this point.
2. She cares. If she truly didn't care, she wouldn't come by.

I think you should continue doing what you are doing. If she comes by, continue to be polite but FIRM. Stick to your plan. Show her through your actions that you are serious about the consequences of what she is doing. I know this is hard, but do your best to NEVER let her see you sweat.

In a wierd way, she has problably been enjoying the attention of two men "fighting" over her. So take yourself out of the equation. By doing so, you will allow her to see the other man for what he is. She needs to see this this guy's true colors before she can devote herself to the marriage.

Coffee man can kick you in the butt and then I will pick you up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> BUT DO NOT GIVE UP!

Thanks HowTo. I'll need you around after Coffeeguy is done with me when I do something stupid. I know she cares, and I know she loves me. That's what is so frustrating.

And believe me, I WON'T get too excited from anything she says to me for a long time. Literally, EVERYTHING she's said to me for over a year was a lie... her words aren't worth a sack of monkey dung. Even her promise to me last month was a huge throbbing lie.

I'm not sure if I'm ready to give up completely yet. But, for Pete's sake, I need a break from her... from everything. That's why I'm leaving town tomorrow w/ my kids and won't be back until Monday nite.

tjs
_______________________________________

Oh, by the way, this post will put me up to triple digits... post #100.

... but what can I do? Someone give me an idea cuz I'm running out. I'm not calling her, and I'm not seeing her... I'm not initiating any contact of any kind. SHE is the one that won't stop. I'm trying to be firm, but it's just not doing any good.

It really doesn't look to me like you are trying to be firm. She calls, you take the call. You could hang up, but you don't.

She comes over, you talk to her. You could go in the bathroom and lock the door. You could go out the back. But, you stay and talk.

I admit, her coming over is much more dificult to cope with, but you could even just repeat over and over, " I'm not going to talk to you."

At least don't take her calls, when you can see they are not about necessarry issues with the childrens scedule, just hang up.

One thing that would make it easier would be to set up rules that govern how you deal with the children. You would only communicate with her about them at certin times, and places, or through another person. You really do need to communicate about the children, so think about making it easier for you to deal with.

Make sense?

SS

<small>[ August 29, 2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but, tell me... how do I exercise emotional detachment when it becomes too difficult...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't you mean painful instead?

Truth: You only have a 'W' on paper but not in real life.

Truth: She has to WANT to chose you and recommitt herself ,thru counseling, in order to rebuild the M.

Truth: Her A is not about you.

If your rational mind acknowledges the above on a constant basis, your reluctantly stubborn emotional mind will eventually have no choice but to acknowledge it also. When that happens then you will have achieved emotional detachment.

As far as your plan B is concerned, don't knock yourself too hard because it is extremely difficult to implement it when children are part of the M. I agree with the poster that said you should only limit contact to discuss issues relating to the children and nothing more. So from this point on, just close the door on her face, or hang up the phone, if she tries to start small talk with you about non-children related issues.

I will leave you with another MB'er closing signature which says: Stay Strong.

Still seeking-
You're right... I could hang up, and I could slam the door in her face. Maybe I'm hoping I don't have to be that way, but it seems I have to. I guess with her, there is no such thing as being polite but firm, as HowTo suggested. It's kinda going against the grain of my emotional fabric, but I guess I gotta be that way. I've always been such a trusting and forgiving person. That's gonna have to change, for sure... at least where WW is concerned.

Coffeguy-
Yes, I meant "painful". And I'm working on being strong. I swear, today I felt stronger as the day passed. But I know getting away from her for the weekend will help tremendously.

I wish I was as strong in my heart and mind as I am in the gym. But give me a week and maybe I'll be there.

tjs

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wish I was as strong in my heart and mind as I am in the gym. But give me a week and maybe I'll be there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh you will be TJS.

Sure you have your setbacks but hey who doesn't right?

I know what you mean by most of this stuff going against ones emotional fabric because it is not something that is intuitive by nature. Take for example love busting, and you'll see how even though all of us have done it and it felt great doing it, it simply destroys relationships in the long run. Yet it is something that we have to unlearn in order to protect our relationships.

My xWW calls my house to 'enquire' about our daughters yet every single time she calls, she tries to engage me in small chat but I just simply tell her that I don't have the time to chat and if she doesn't want to talk to our girls, then I have to say goodbye. Sure in my case it's easy because her account in my love bank has long been closed, but just like your present WW, she too does it to manipulate me by trying to control my emotions. BUT IT TOOK PRACTICE before I became comfortable in brushing her off, and now I simply laugh to myself because this little routine of hers has become something of a joke straight out of a quirky comedy. Even my lady jokes about it by asking me if I've gotten my RDA of xWW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So TJS, just like you've gotten physically strong by consistently working out at the gym, so will your emotional side become stronger by consistently practicing emotional detachment. It will save your sanity and your love.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>Truth: You only have a 'W' on paper but not in real life.

Truth: She has to WANT to chose you and recommitt herself ,thru counseling, in order to rebuild the M.

Truth: Her A is not about you.

If your rational mind acknowledges the above on a constant basis, your reluctantly stubborn emotional mind will eventually have no choice but to acknowledge it also.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've spent a lot of time thinking about what you wrote, Coffeeguy. The one that sticks in my mind the most is that I "only have a 'W' on paper but not in real life". Very well spoken. Although I'm not wholly strong yet, I feel much better. I spent the weekend away w/ my boys, and we had a great time. A much needed vacation. And even though I spent a lot of time thinking about all this mess, it didn't totally consume my mind.

Something quite interesting happened tonite, though. It's getting too late, so I just don't have the time to write about it now. But I will post in a day or 2 w/ the update.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
tjs

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]</small>

Well, Coffeeguy, I believe you are right again. My confrontation w/ OM took so much out of me. I feel really numb. I don't think I have the desire or the strength to pursue this M any longer. Just as you said, I think it took away the remaining love that I had for her. At least, I'm not ever going to be dragged through the mud by her any more... ever. I just can't ever imagine that I could ever trust her again... or even love her again. I feel some satisfaction knowing that I hung in there for 14 months. And I won't be the one to have regrets because I did so much to bring my family back together. It was her foolish decisions that put me in the state that I'm in today.

But, I do still have an update that I want to post later. It's getting late and I'm absolutely drained from all this.

tjs

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I feel some satisfaction knowing that I hung in there for 14 months. And I won't be the one to have regrets because I did so much to bring my family back together.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm so sorry to hear your update TJS. I wish that I had been wrong about what would have happened to your love bank when you confronted OM. That is one of the many reasons why confronting the OP is seldom a good idea.

I've often said that the greatest betrayal a WS committs is not against his/her BS but against his/herself. WS's, such as your WW, are to be pitied not hated because the worst judge they will be facing is the one that looks back at them in the mirror, and that judge tends to be mighty unmerciful when their judgement day finally arrives. It will be a day of grieving when your WW finally wakes up to all the damage she has caused to everybody that loved her, and realize that it could have been prevented.

Rest well my friend.

Hey John,
I really didn't mean to slam the door in her face. But you could say something like this.

" I am sorry, but with all that is going on I really can't see you or talk to you right now, it is tearing me apart. Please leave,
( or if on the phone, Goodbye.)

Sounds like you may be making decisions that make this moot anyway. Hang in there, many others have done this, you can too.

TMCMan, you are getting around a lot, and you are a big help to many, keep it up. ( how do you get the time? )

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by still seeking:
<strong>Hey John,
TMCMan, you are getting around a lot, and you are a big help to many, keep it up. ( how do you get the time? )

SS</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have no life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TJS

Please give us some signs of life.

TJS, have you been abducted by aliens? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Yeah I beleive I can hear an old Byrds Mr Space Man playing in the background:

Woke up this morning with light in my eyes
and then realized it was still dark outside
It was a light comin´down from the sky
I don´t know who or why

Must be those strangers that come every night
Whose saucers shaped light put people up tight
Leave blue green footprints that glow in the dark
I hope they get home all right

Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
I won´t do anything wrong
Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
for a ride

Woke up this mornin´, I was feeling quite weird
Had flies in my beer, my tooth paste was smeared
I opened my window, they´d written my name
said: "So long, we´ll see you again".

Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
I won´t do anything wrong
Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
for a ride

Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
I won´t do anything wrong
Hey Mr.Spaceman, won´t you please take me along
for a ride

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No, Coffeeguy, I am still around. I promised you an update, but I needed a break from here for a while. But I'm back... and maybe when I'm done posting, you may wish you didn't ask...

Just like last July, I worked plan B. Well, Labor Day I came home from my weekend away. The next day when I came home from work, she was already parked in my driveway. She told me she had something to tell me, and I said only if it's about the boys. She said it was, and told me she was moving. Her mother told her (her mom told me this too) that she wants to offer a place for her so she can get away from here. Her mom knows all about OM, and wanted WS to get away from OM... not for our marriage, but simply because he will not be good w/ our boys (and I strongly agree). Now, they live about 3 states away from here... actually Phoenix. WS told me that she finally woke up and realized the kind of person OM is. She said she knows that she's doing the right thing... not just for our boys, but she said she doesn't love him like she thought she did. She told me that she felt like she was playing a role. I forget how she explained it to me, but the bottom line was that she apparently didn't love him. And the more I tried to stop her A, the more determined she was to be with OM. Well, I knew that. And, she actually wasn't spending her time w/ him. She was accountable for every place she went... except for last Sat nite when she said she was going to the bar w/ her friend from work. Turns out, she ran into a co-worker of mine at the bar and partied w/ her the rest of the nite... so, she really did go where she said she was going.

So, she wanted to get a transfer to Phoenix. She tells me that last Friday, she told OM that she was putting in her 2 weeks notice. She said that he was upset, and wanted to talk to her about it. She said that she made up her mind and didn't have anything to talk about.

Okay, so fine and dandy. So, apparently she's not seeing him anymore. It would seem true, because she's at home or over here all the time now. But, she still didn't ever tell me that she was interested in our M. I was burned once already last July w/ her false recovery, and I'm not about to go through that again. I stayed my distance emotionally. I still felt like I wanted to go through w/ the Dv, and finally wrote the stipulations I want in the Dv. Well, last Wed she asked me why I seemed so distant. I told her that I was going to see my attorney the next day to finish this over-due Dv. She started crying. I asked her why she was crying... i mean, she told me many times before that she wanted this Dv to get over. Well, she says that she thought that's what she wanted. I asked her what does she want NOW? She said that she didn't want me to go through with it. She said that she wants me to find a new job in Phoenix and that she wanted us to start fresh in a new place. I reminded her that she never said that to me before, nor has she said that she even loves me. She said that I never tell her that anymore either. Then she said that she does love me and she does want to work on our marriage. Hmmmm... So, I told her I would put it off for a while longer until both of us are sure of what we want. She said that she's sure of her decision, and she feels very happy w/ it. Well, I've her that tune before.

So, today is Saturday. She had asked me a while back if she could have a garage sale at my house because it's on a main street w/ lots of traffic. I told it would be fine, and I had a few things to sell too. She was trying to sell as much of her stuff so she won't have to move it. But, all day she just seemed kinda distant. Okay, so a few days ago she said she loves me and wants to work on the M. But she isn't showing me any indication. When I asked her if she was going out tonite, she said she didn't know. I said that she doesn't plan on doing anything w/ me then, and she said that I never asked her. I asked her why she ask me... I mean, she's moving next weekend. I thought if she really wants to do this, she might show a little effort... maybe want to spend a little time w/ me before she moves away from here. Well, she says that she's really too tired to do anything tonite anyway. The rest of the day she seemed so crabby. I asked her today exactly what OM said when she told him she was leaving him. She didn't want to talk about it. I explained that I want to get some sense of security, and I need to hear how the conversation went. Why does it need to be a secret... especially if she doesn't love him like she claims. She got mad and said that she just didn't want to talk about it. Then I started talking about how her words and her actions are conflicting. She said that she's stressed out and she's focused on moving. Well, fine, but I would expect her to show me something positive in between her moments of focus.

Maybe I should say that the past few days she's been acting this way. I mean, we did have sex 3 times the past week or so. One evening when she was over, she asked me to hold her while she was laying down. She has shown me on occasion some affection with hugs and kisses(actual kisses, not pecks on my cheek), although not a whole lot.

I dunno, what's your take on this whole thing. I've been meeting many of her ENs and have been acting very positive. But in my heart, I'm not sure... I'm just waiting for her to say that she's changed her mind again. I feel like I want to go through w/ the Dv, but I know that I can hold off for a while, too, just to see how things pan out. I do feel love for her, but I also feel very resentful. I feel that if she really wants to do this, she should be showing me that she does. I'm just not ready to let loose on this.

So, Coffeeguy, I think I've been strong. But have I been too strong? Should I be more willing since she has put her notice in at work and is planning to leave next weekend? Should I be trying harder to meet more of her ENs? Maybe Redhat can pitch in his 2 cents... I'm a little confused right now.

tjs

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by thejohnsmith:
<strong>No, Coffeeguy, I am still around. I promised you an update, but I needed a break from here for a while. But I'm back... and maybe when I'm done posting, you may wish you didn't ask...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't worry. I don't bite...much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I dunno, what's your take on this whole thing. I've been meeting many of her ENs and have been acting very positive. But in my heart, I'm not sure... I'm just waiting for her to say that she's changed her mind again. I feel like I want to go through w/ the Dv, but I know that I can hold off for a while, too, just to see how things pan out. I do feel love for her, but I also feel very resentful. I feel that if she really wants to do this, she should be showing me that she does. I'm just not ready to let loose on this.

So, Coffeeguy, I think I've been strong. But have I been too strong? Should I be more willing since she has put her notice in at work and is planning to leave next weekend? Should I be trying harder to meet more of her ENs? Maybe Redhat can pitch in his 2 cents... I'm a little confused right now.

tjs</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I agree TJS that you've been strong and that only you TJS, and God, know what's good for TJS, but I would still like to give you my $0.02 worth if it's ok with you.

First, It does seem that her A is really over. But don't let that give you false hope, because her OM may still have an emotional card up his sleeve and may use it to suck her back into the A later on.

GUARD YOUR FEELINGS WELL AND DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING FROM HER (emotional detachment) and by this I don't mean to act distant with her, but just don't start romantizing that you've got your true love back. This may also turn out to be another false recovery and you need to be detached emotionally until you see she is serious and has taken concrete steps to rebuild the M. If she isn't then you can proceed with divorce without the pain of feeling betrayed by her once more.

DON'T BE TOO PUSHY BY PLAYING 20 QUESTIONS WITH HER. She is probably not too proud of her actions and she probably needs some quiet time to reflect on what her life has become, before she's ready to opening up to your questions. You might just want to let her know that you are here for her if she feels the need to talk later on.

And finally KEEP YOUR EYES AND EARS OPEN for any possible signs that she has started acting like she did when her A started. She may have ended it with OM but that doesn't mean that she won't fall for another and start another A. Many men and women, on these boards have WS's that had multiple A's (I used to be one of them, remember?).

Other than that, is to wish you good luck and to urge you not to abandon these boards. You may not beleive it, but your experiences can be of great value (strength and inspiration) to others that might come to these boards with similar difficult situations.

I'll be keeping an eye for you and be ready to whack you over the head with a 2x4 when you so richly deserve it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ September 15, 2002, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Yes, keep posting. I am entering plan B (with kids) and would love to hear more from you.

Maybe she is in withdrawal. Consider a recovery agreement before you decide to move to Phoenix.

thejohnsmith,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So, Coffeeguy, I think I've been strong. But have I been too strong? Should I be more willing since she has put her notice in at work and is planning to leave next weekend? Should I be trying harder to meet more of her ENs? Maybe Redhat can pitch in his 2 cents... I'm a little confused right now.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unless you are in plan B, you have to meet all her ENs as long as she allows you to. In plan B there should be none at all. To break from plan B ... follows TMCM's advice ... proceed w/ cautious. Sit her down and tell her that you are still want to work on M but you don't want to get hurt again. Please do nothing. Do not do anything on trying to go back to plan A ... until you are 100% sure that she is fully committed. Go with your gut feeling, you know her more than us ... see her actions.

Hope this time she is doing the right thing.

-rh-

I haven't had my computer connected for a while since I'm moving... just across town, not out of the state.

Thanks, Redhat, for your advice. But, unfortunately, exactly what I feared did occur... another false recovery. It's a little hard for me to figure this out. She was so certain that for the first time in a year she made the right decision. She told me several times that she was happy with her decision. She held a garage sale at my house last weekend and sold much of her furniture, including her refrigerator. Two days ago, though, I went in the sore where she works. I didn't go to see her, I just went to but something that I needed. Well, Guess who I saw pull in the parking lot... OM. And, she was w/ him. She saw me going in the store, and she met me at the door. She said "what are you doing?" in a real chirpy tone. I ignored her and went in to get what I came for. She tracked me down in that isle and asked me how I was again. I asked her how her lunch went and she said fine. I asked her why she went to lunch w/ OM, and she even rode to and from another town w/ him to another store. I expressed my disapproval by telling her that if she wanted to end things w/ OM, she needed to stop talking w/ him and stop having lunch, for Gods sake. She got mad and walked away.

Well, that night, I went down to her house. I asked her why she had lunch w/ him and ride out of town w/ him. she said she didn't do anything wrong. I disagreed, and said that she's suppose to be having no communication w/ him. But since he is her boss, she must make sure that everything they talk about is work-related until she leaves for Phoenix. Then I ask her if she asked for her transfer to Phoenix. She said she didn't. Then she tells me that she doesn't have enough money to move down there now, and said that she can't afford the cost-of-living.

So, I said "you're not going now, are you?" she said no. I asked her if she is back w/ OM again, and she said yes. Well, at least she didn't lie to me this time. We talked for a while, and I can see that she's deep in the fog again.

So, now that she sold her refrigerator and much of her furniture, I asked her what her plans are... is she moving in w/ OM now? she said she wasn't sure yet. Well, what else will she do? Of course she's going to move in w/ him.

I knew this was going to happen... i could feel it. But, at least now that I moved, I no longer live right down the street from her. I think that will help me quite a bit.

Now I'm back in plan B for the 3rd time. I didn't write her a letter, I just told her not to contact me. She's taking my boys to OM's house for the weekend... something she hasn't done for 3 months or more. She's really caught up in it again. It's too bad, because i don't think I can do this again. I went through the final paperwork w/ my attorney today. Who knows what the future will bring for the 2 of us, but for quite a long time now, I will avoid her like the plague.

Better luck next time, I guess.

tjs

I'm so sorry about your latest development with your WW.

I'm not surprised about the false recovery and Redhat and I did tell you proceed with caution and not to get your hopes up.

Well at least you can't say that you did not give her a chance before proceeding with plan B. If you proceed with plan B, try to find an intermediary to act as a go between you and her on issues regarding your kids wellbeing, but if you can't get one, then stick to as bare bones a conversation as you can get regarding your children. Do not talk, or let her suck you into talking about the M, OM, or the divorce. Be polite in all your dealings with her but firm in your resolve not to let her use you as a doormat anymore.

Your wife is in the cake walker stage of her A with OM, and she'll try to have you be there for her for the things that OM can't give her. It is up to you to realize this and act accordingly to your best interests and those of your children.

Hey TJS what's happening in your part of the world?