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#462907 07/03/02 06:32 AM
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Okay, guys... I felt like I needed to post this since I can't sleep anyway. There was someone knocking on my door this morning at 4:30. It was my W. She asked me if we can talk. I wasn't quite awake yet, but I let her in. She told me that she wants to end this A w/ OM, and she's is going to get all her things at OMs house Friday. She took all her things (a garage-full of stuff) over there about 2 months ago cuz she was going to move in w/ OM. She's afraid, now, that if he finds out before she gets her things, he won't let her take it. She wants to end her A, but I think she's actually afraid... I mean physically afraid of this guy. She told me that she doesn't like being around him, and he doesn't want her to spend any time w/ our oldest S... the one that lives w/ me. He's become possessive and wants her to account for every minute she's not w/ him. I know she's been thinking about this for a while. She's been so stressed lately, and now I know why. She said she just want to get this over and behind her. She's finally figured out what a gem she picked to replace me.

So, let's say she does end her A. But, he's her boss. She knows she's going to have to quit her job, but then what? Should I let her move back in w/ me? I think she's about to be evicted because she hasn't paid her rent for 2 months. And I think that most of her bills are late, too. Now, I'm happy as a lark that she's finally decided to end her A... but now what? From what she tells me about this guy, he may not leave her alone. I kinda expect to see him show up here at my house, which I would look forward to. But, how do I proceed from here? Should I help her get her things from his house? My W wants to go when he's not there, which will be Friday.

I'm certainly going to let my kids live w/ me. But what about her? Do I let her come back and start working on recovery? What about all her financial problems she's caused for herself? I'm afraid that some of that is going to fall back on me anyway... some already has.

I know I have to be very careful right now. What now... ?

#462908 07/03/02 07:09 AM
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theJS,
My advice is to go forward cautiously. I would sit her down to get an idea to how she really feels. Is she REALLY ready to stop the A 100%; how is SHE going to manage her debts; what is she going to do to contribute to recovery?
I think you need to receive some type of assurances from her that she is ready to do this, otherwise she'll just be taking advantage of you. Draw the boundaries and let her know what they are (concretely), and then you won't get burned. But also be the warm, understanding, caring guy that you are, and get started on the rebuilding process.

Just some thoughts from the other side of the Atlantic...

Sweden

#462909 07/03/02 09:47 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Original post by thejohnsmith:<strong>
She's finally figured out what a gem she picked to replace me.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is usually the case with most WS's. They are so desperate that even the town drunk has a good shot at them.

I echo Sweden's advice TJS.

As far as her beign afraid of OM who is her boss, she should know that he could be hit with a sexual harassment charge if he tries to force her to continue with the relationship. If she is agreeable, you could talk to OM and let him know that both you and your W, will slap him with a sexual harassment lawsuit if he doesn't cease and desist. That should deflate any power trip he might have over your W. Also if she is truly serious that the A is over between her and OM have her writte a no contact letter signed, notarized, and sent via registered mail to OM.

You should be concerned that her debts will become another financial burden on your already stressed financial situation. Tell her that you will not take on her financial mistakes and that she has to be responsable for paying them off before there is any possibility of marital recovery.

Consider the idea of renting a storage facility for all the stuff she took when she moved out. The monthly rates are usually less than $100.00 a month. I suggest this because a lot of WS's have a tendency to move out, move in, and again move out, which causes a lot of stress on the BS and children. If in the near future she and OM reignite their A, it will be very traumatic for you and the kids to see her move all her stuff out once more. On the other hand, if the only things she has to move out are her clothes, it will be not only a faster move out but also a less traumatic one for you and your kids.

I know you are happy but don't let your happiness get the best of you. You must use probationary tactics if you do decide to let her move back in with you and your kids.

Good luck and keep us posted.

<small>[ July 03, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

#462910 07/03/02 10:11 AM
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tjs,

Follow MB to end A ... call OM yourself to tell him that you could filed a harasment. Get time off from work for your W ... even get a doctor note to get her into short term disabilities ... should not be dificult considering her state of mind.

About trust and recovery ... this is the time of lay it on the table ... sit her down and let her know your worries and afraid of getting hurt again. Let her explain herself ..... do not LB .... The road to recovery is very narrow, watch out for withdrawal, Torizo's story is very gut wrenching, let me know if you need a link.

Since she know already about MB ... get her to read few posts, including a letter from WW and a withdrawal post. Good job tjs ... this is the very reason I try to make you to keep the communication line open.

Pray & praise HIM ... there is no higher console than HIM. God Bless you -RH-

#462911 07/03/02 04:46 PM
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Sweden-
Thanks for your pieces of advice. I plan to follow through with every one of them. Are you really in Sweden?
___________________________________________

Coffeeguy-
Hey, thanks for being around and offering your advice at at times when I really needed it. It seems like I can always count on you.

I'll keep you posted on things as they develop.
____________________________________________

Redhat-
I suppose I ought to thank you for being the one that seems to always encourage a positive attitude. I was so close to walking, it wasn't funny. I do know that I still need to be extremely careful. I mean, she's been lying to me for a year now, and she may be lying to me now about this whole thing being over. I think it could be a new scheme the she and OM thought up to throw me a curve. I have gotten much stronger over the past couple of weeks, and I think I'll be ready for whatever comes my way.

I am unaware of Torizo's story. So, yes, I would like a link. Could you also recommend a good withdrawal post off the top of your head? If not, I'm sure I can find something.

Thanks again, RH.

#462912 07/03/02 06:33 PM
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tjs,

Here is Torizo saga ... a dear freind. His W kept contact during withdrawal and even cried about OM ... his love & strong boundries finally wins her heart.

Check under my sig ... SKM's cronicle is good to read including trueheart's letter ... Print trueheart letter and read it together w/ you W. BTW you could drop Wayward out from WW for now until you could prove it otherwise.

If you could afford it ... call Jennifer or Steve don't short change your M.

Good Luck -RH-

#462913 07/03/02 08:21 PM
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Hi, redhat-
It's always good to hear from you. It would be nice to hear from Orchid right now. She always has such good advice. I'm sure she'll eventually catch up w/ me.

My W and I have a counselling session Monday here where I live w/ whom I believe to be a wonderful counselor. My oldest S has been going to her for a couple of months, as well as my W. She has helped both of them quite a bit.

I do have reservations about this whole thing. First of all, my W has decided that she doesn't want to continue her A. But, she isn't ready to commit to rebuilding our M. I think she's using me as a crutch to help her break off her A. She says she just wants to start as friends, spend time together, and let things develop from there. That worries me since she isn't willing to commit to our M. She wants me to rent a movie tonite and watch it w/ her tonite. I think that my best plan of action is to let her be alone for a few days so she can figure out a few things. I'm not willing to walk into a relationship of any kind without some kind of assurance from her... something that I'm not getting from her yet.

The fact that she wants to spend time w/ me is nice. But I need something more than that. I need her to say to me that she's ready and willing to begin recovery. Maybe she needs me to help her through her withdrawal from OM, and once she's made it through that, she may not need me around anymore.

Do you agree w/ me?

#462914 07/03/02 09:09 PM
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tjs,

In MB, there is only plan A or plan B no in between. In M there is no "uncomitted" ... either you fully commit or you are on the way out. However, give her space and draw up your boundries. If you take her w/o NO COMMITMENT to work on MB you are asking for trouble ... ORCHID ... WHERE ARE YOU ???. She did this many times ... she could give you better advice. I agree with you but .... IMVHO ... DO NOTHING !. You are back in plan A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Now you take it from there ... enjoy your W, never bring up OM or A or R ... just pretend it never happens. One wise lady once told me ... "Good things come to those who wait, and the best is yet to come" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . John, be gentle, WS/BS/OP alike get hurt in this A, what you give to her will strengthen her love for you ...

Observe and observe ... look at her action not her words !. Enjoy tonight's movie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ... The next few days is critical and you 've decide & evaluate. You know her more than any of us here. You have two choices, go back to plan A and hope you get some response back this time or use tough love .... I 've prayed she does the right thing for the sake of your recovery & hers.

Amen -RH-

#462915 07/03/02 11:06 PM
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My ears are burning!!!! RH, I heard U loud and clear. Across the bay even!!! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well TJS, if this is true then you'd better start doing ......... what do you think? N _ _ H _ _ G!

At least for now. That's right. U need to get with your counselor or a quick meeting with Steve or Jennifer to setup a plan.

See if your W wants to come back and you take her back TOOO early, it could backslide. Trust me there are a few of us that had many false recovery starts. One of the good MBers here LOR had 7 false recoveries. I had about 4. Lor and her H are doing quite well, but she can tell you how hard it is.

I had to learn to let my H earn back his right to be with us. It was not the other way around. We (his family) did not deserve less. When I implemented this attitude, explained to the WS (at the time) what was expected. Kept raising the bar when he backslided, it was more of a challenge for him and easier for me.

I also keep plan B in my back pocket. See for me, H came home last April 2001, May 2001 OW left about 34+ voicemail messages accusing H of committing 'emotional adultery' when he left her to go to his family, I had a miscarriage June 2001, OW claimed prego June 2001, WS went to 2 1/2 day stay at the local poke in July 2001, WS kicked out of the house/restraining order combo, August 2001 (our wedding anniversary month and the month OW had planned they be married - YUCK!) OW claimed prego 3, WS kicked out again - had to sleep in his truck, Dec 2001 WS kicked out again - slept in his truck, Feb 2002 WS kicked out again due to e-mail contact/OW made golf lesson plans for April 2002, last physical contact was supposedly in Feb 2002, last initiated contact was I believe March 2002...... OW tries to call during her monthly PMS spasisms.

Now that is what happened in what some call recovery. I don't call it that until End of May 2002, when H's attitude became more supportive and attentive. He told me that he does not miss the OW anymore.

So prepare for a bit of a rough ride. As bad as the OM maybe, she may still gravitate to him or try to pit you against him. Crazy but true. U still need to shore up your boundaries. Find out what you will not tolerate and write it in a letter. Keep it until you are ready to either give it to her or talk to her about it. It will help you keep things in better perspective.

Let's see if we can find JL or NSR. They are good with support.

tread wisely,
L.

#462916 07/05/02 05:59 AM
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Hi John:
I am happy to hear that the affair is not working and possibly the fog is lifting. I know you have a long road ahead of you but this is a great start. You are on the right track, Kim..

#462917 07/06/02 02:56 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Original post by thejohnsmith:<strong>
I know she's got another crazy scheme planned w/ her OM. I'm not going to get into the story right now, but I'd bet a year's wages that it's more crap to try to pull me in the fog regarding my upcoming child support hearing. I'm just sure that she's trying to make things look good for her when she goes in front of the judge. But, it's too late. She's already done enough damage... I should be able to get them. God, I pray everyday for these boys of mine.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I take it that you are going to proceed with contacting an attorney to start the divorce proceedings?

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

#462918 07/06/02 09:08 AM
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tjs,

From the other post ...

Are you sure you have all the fact not your speculation ?. If you have the fact, sit her down and proceed with tough love !!!. Draw the boundry is acceptable to you and let her know ... be it that you will proceed with the CC hearing and let her move out. NC letter is a must and all monitoring should be in place.

John, this is very critical time ... detail please -RH-

<small>[ July 06, 2002, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

#462919 07/06/02 09:17 PM
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Hi coffeeguy-
My W has already filed for D last Oct. Yes, I plan to let it continue.
_______________________________________________

redhat-
Okay, here's what's been happening.

Like I told you, she came over last Wed morn at 4:30 to tell me how she is going to move her stuff out of OMs house. Thurs, the 4th, I went to a friend's house on the lake and had a good time. My plans to leave town fell through. I got home around 10pm, and W came over about 30 mins later. She told me that her friend was coming out Fri to help her move her stuff back home, and told me how she wants to get this over with. I asked her if she was absolutely, 100% sure that's what she wants to do... end the A. She said it was. She started crying again saying she doesn't understand how I can forgive her for the things she has done. I left it at that, and did as little as possible to add to the conversation. I was avoiding LBing, and trying to do NOTHING.

Fri morn came and she called me to tell me that she was at OMs house. He wasn't there at the time, but she said she called him on his cell phone and he was coming home. She told me that she wanted to tell him that she was ending their A in person, against my request. So, she was going to get some boxes and come home. A couple of hours later, she called me and said she was home. She said that her friend was not coming to help, and asked if I could help her move. I didn't know what to say, but naturally, being the sap that I am, I agreed. I rented a UHaul trailer, picked her up and drove to OMs house (he was gone to pick up his daughter for the weekend, and wasn't going to be home for another 6 hrs). We started loading things up, and I stepped inside his house to help W w/ a piece of furniture. It hit me... all those things that used to be mine in my house was set up in HIS house, w/ her things arranged real nice. It was going to be her new home. Wow... it hit me really hard. He was using my kitchen table and arranged his dining room to accomodate my buffet. It really made me angry inside.

I told her I wanted to get the table next, and she wanted to leave it for last. We argued a while, because I told her that she is NOT going to leave that table ther e for him. It was a gift from W's parents.I knew I was LBing, but I refused to leave it. Well, by the time everything was loaded, guess what didn't fit... the table. She said she would go back Sunday w/ my truck to get it along w/ some other things she said was in his car. The drive back home (about 45 mins) was very quiet. She looked at me a few times and asked me what was wrong. I told her it was nothing.

We got to her house and I started to unload the trailer. She went in the house for a few minutes, and when she came out again she had been crying. I thought to myself... here we go with withdrawal and it hasn't even been an hour. After the trailer was unloaded, I went home just down the street. I called her about an hour later, and she was in tears. She told me that she called her mom and said she really misses her mom. She told me that she was crying because this was very hard for her, but she said she knew this was the right thing to do. She said that she was in withdrawal, but then changed her mind and said that she was very confused and she doesn't know which way is up anymore. She asked me if it was over (meaning our relationship), and I said that it doesn't have to be. I told her that I love her, but she must continue to not see OM and continue counseling. I wasn't going to be able to work on recovery until she can prove to me that she is willing and the A is completely over. She told me that she never stopped loving me through all this. I asked her then if she was trying to tell me that she loves me. She said yes. I haven't heard her say that in a long time. She said that her plans were to move her things back and come home (w/ me), but now she says she needs some time alone away from me and OM for a while. She said that she doesn't want to talk to me until our counseling appt Monday. I agreed. Then she said that she doesn't want to be alone, though, so she said she was going to stay w/ a friend, but couldn't decide who. Now, she doesn't have any friends anymore. Her only friend is 350 miles away (the friend that was going to help her move). She told me to give our S a big hug for her and said goodbye and hung up.

I called her mom then. I told her that W told me that she loved me. Her mom said that it was funny because W told her that she loves OM. While I was on the phone, I saw W drive away down the street. I just know that she is w/ OM this weekend.

I know the reason why she insisted on leaving the table there was so she would have an excuse to go back. It's a big piece of furniture, and so she's going to need him there to help her with it. She knew before she got her things that she was making a plan so she can see him again. I think that she, in fact, is not ready to end the A, but wants it to look like that to me so I can still be her way out. Another reason why I know she's at OMs house is because her friend called me and left a message about a hour after W left. Why would she call me if my W was going to be there in a couple of hours? I didn't get to talk to her friend today, but I'm sure she wanted to see how everything went for her during the move.

I'm really disappointed right now. I plan to go to the Counseling and say that I'm done w/ the lies for the last time. She is not to contact me again until she is commited to rebuilding the M, prove the A is over, quit her job, get off birth control, and earn the right to be with my family. Until then, I don't want to hear from her in any way.

Is this the right thing? I think so. Tough love... right? I'm not even so sure that I want to work on things right now. I feel betrayed again, and she lied to me again. How much can a man take?

<small>[ July 07, 2002, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]</small>

#462920 07/07/02 01:49 AM
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TJS,

U have the steps right. At least in my opinion. You are stronger but hurt. You are also tired of these games.

Whether your words will bring her home or not is up to her. The condition you allow her to come home under is yours.

This is a hard thing but my personal belief is that respect for the M and ourselves is important. Funny how my H now reacts to other WS stories he hears about. He has very little tolerance for their foolishness yet he was just as guilty just a few months ago.

Go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You are at a crucial point, pray for a clearn mind and a calm heart. I made my decisions in the past and basically when they went against the grain of the WS, I had no regrets. Even now. Pleasing the WS was NOT my priority. But to get to that point took a lot. I put up with way more than anyone should have. Many of us have.

take care,
L.

#462921 07/07/02 05:17 AM
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tjs,

Have you read Torizo saga ... his W cry on his shoulder about OM !!!. what did he do ??? NOTHING ... listen to Orchid. Do nothing to retaliate or LB'ed. Get your fact, ask her what is her intention doing this. Make the boundry smaller every time there is incident like this .. but do nothing to severe your relationship, make her do it.

PS. reread Orchid replied to you ... it is touhg but you have to hang in there. Be strong and don't push her ...

-RH-

#462922 07/08/02 12:02 AM
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Orchid and redhat-

You're right... I need to get the facts instead of speculating. It's just that I don't think she has any friends, at least none that she told me about. Where else could she go and spend the past 2 nights with? I have done NO LBing! All these gripes have been in my head and I've not spoken to W about these thoughts.

Like Orchid wrote- "This is a hard thing but my personal belief is that respect for the M and ourselves is important." So true. I shouldn't have to settle for something less than what I deserve, especially after being subjected to her A. I need to set the boundaries, and let her decide if she is willing and able to meet my terms for returning to this M. I believe that the less I interfere in her decision-making, the better and more sound her decisions will be.

I noticed that her car is at home now. I think she'll be calling me sometime before the day is over. I'm interested to see what she has to say to me.

Thanks for helping me to stay strong.

#462923 07/07/02 01:12 PM
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I have a good friend that is working on her PhD in Family Counseling. I called her yesterday... she gives me free advice. She knows me, and she also knows my W, the events that occured up to W's A, and also knows the state of my M. Her advice is very similar to the things that Orchid has told me. My friend also was a WW, and can talk about this from her first hand experiences. She says that I need to let my W get herself out of this situation on her own, w/out my help. She says that I should let her experience her financial struggles on her own. Bottom line is that I need to work on making my life better instead of worrying so much about my W. Hmmm... seems like I've heard that before. My W needs to come to me when she has made a clear decision, otherwise this cycle may continue again w/ another man somewhere down the road. It's tough love that she was talking about. I think I get the picture. The same message is is given to me over and over again.

I read through some of Torizo's story as redhat suggested. I just think that very few people could do the things he did. In my opinion, it seems self-destructive and chiseled away at any self-respect he has, regardless how much he loves his WW. It's too hard for me to listen to my W talk about love for another man. I don't think she talked to OM about her feelings for me during her A. And I don't think I should be subjected to it either.

Anyway, it's time for me to take my mind off of this mess for a while and get a few things done around here. I have the counseling appt tomorrow. I think I'll prepare for that later.

<small>[ July 07, 2002, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]</small>

#462924 07/07/02 10:24 PM
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I think I'm the only one that's been on MB today. I don't see a whole lot of activity.

Well, tonite I taked to my W. She wanted to assure me that she did not spend the weekend w/ OM, but I have my reservtions about that. She asked me out to dinner, which I accepted. After dinner, she asked me if I wanted to watch a movie w/ her. I told her that I had a movie at home that I haven't seen yet, so I went to get it. Someone called for me while I was at home, so it took me about an hour to get back to her house. By then, she was too tired to watch the movie, and so was I. We sat on her porch for a few minutes before I came home. It was the first time she talked about rebuilding our marriage. I told her that it has to be crystal clear to her if that's what she wants to do. I told her that it will take a lot of work and patience and time, and that she's going to need to prove to me that it is really what she wants to do. I said that if she wants to reconcile, it must be because she wants the M... not for our kids sake, not because she afraid to be alone or on her own, not because she is afraid of not making it financially, not because of any other reason. Simply, because she wants to be with me again.

I restated my boundaries, and did so in a understanding and loving way. I told her that somehow she's going to need to prove to me that the A is over. Since she didn't want to write the letter to him the way I wanted, I have no proof that it is actually over. Particularly because she's told me 3 times now in the past 6 months that it was over, and it wasn't. She also must stop taking birth control pills, quit her job, and prove to me that she wants to commit herself 100% to rebuilding the marriage and be worthy to be my wife again. I tried to put this in a concise, considerate and thoughtful way.

She didn't say much. I think she's not completely sure that she is ready to commit to the M again, although she didn't say that. I have time on my side. I'm moving back into the driver's seat on this, and I feel somewhat relieved. But, I know I can't let my guard down. I know there is a long road ahead of me, and I'm trying to take it cautiously. She hasn't proven much of anything to me yet.

I think I need to do the same thing that I've been doing... nothing. I'm letting her take the steps towards me, not the other way around. I've been letting her call me, not me calling her. I've been letting her initate everything. I've been working on tough love, and I think that's the only way. I printed the EN questionaire and thought I'd give that to her when we are at the counseling tomorrow.

Am I doing okay at this thing?

<small>[ July 07, 2002, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: thejohnsmith ]</small>

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tjs,

You are doing great !!!. I saw your post to others too, I am gald you are taking the step to help others ... there are many out there gasping for any reply. With the execption of Orchid most of us could not keep track on all posts let alone replying. Your deed will go a long way, God blesses who gives.

I have my 2D this week plus Monday I have mediation for CC review. I am busy preparing stuff but I was curious enough to check MB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

One size doesn't fit all ... specially in relationship. That's why there is no boundry in plan A. Torizo's is happy in recovery ... it is amazing how he rescued his wife. I can't do it and I do not think it will work for me niether. Now for you, you are doing good. You had set the boundry and told her w/o LB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... state the fact and let her know. This is plan A all about ... just remember your separation is not plan B. Your boundry setting is not plan B ... you still have to show your love to her and keep it safe for her to come back. It is tough love, an implementation of plan A. If you try to fill in time, read the link about Venusian Lady ... a different implementation of plan A.

Good job and keep it up. -RH-

#462926 07/10/02 08:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 17,837
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 17,837
Hey TJS,

Howa doing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

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