<BR>Hi Tim and others..<P>I just wanted to share what my friend JB, who is a psychologist, said he finds very common right after a betrayed has 'won' the betrayer back. <P>He says that during Plan A (he didn't call it that, but rather 'the crisis time'), the betrayed frantically throws all their energy into restoring love to the marriage. <P>He said <P>"More often than not, as soon as things seem to have improved, the anger surfaces. This is the hardest part of the recovery process for the hurt spouse. <P>It can last about a year, and puts a tremendous spiritual burden on the hurt one. BUT, if they can deal with the anger as it comes up, face it and address it and work it through, the marriage CAN BE extremely solid and strong for having gone through it. <P>It isn't fair that the work is done by the hurt one, of course, but do have hope that it can be better."<P>Anyway, it probably isn't much comfort, but this is another predictable "phase", according to Dr. JB, who deals with families in this situation daily. He said that the potential for success lies in the ability of the hurt one to get through the phase where they are so tempted to lash back, now that it seems safe to do so.<P>Anyway, I thought I'd share the free info JB gave me.<P>maybe it will help a bit to know it is something that most recovering marriages go through <P>blessings, <BR>lizzipearl<P>------------------<P>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR><p>[This message has been edited by POGP (edited January 07, 2000).]

up for Medic and others

It is somewhat disheartening how much emphasis is put on an affair being basically caused by the failure of the "faithful spouse" and how hard the Betrayed has to work to save the marriage.<P>I have been reading Dr. Harley's book Suviving an Affair and so often he mentions that we have to understand that we basically caused the environment that lead to the affair. I wish he had clarified more clearly that the betrayed spouse also had a big impact on the atmosphere of the marriage. Most of us respond to how we are responded to. A bad marriage is usually caused by the failure of both spouses meeting needs and an affair is caused when one of us decides to be unfaithful.<P>He also emphasized that we have to work to win the spouses love back. That we have to be patient while they struggle through withdrawal.<P>Sometimes I feel that I have had to sacrifice everything and all he had to do was give up someone he shouldn't have had in the first place.<P>We have to show love even if we don't feel it to make our unloving spoused feel love so that maybe they will show love in return and possibly restore our love. That's hard to do.<P>I am definitely going through the anger stage and have been for a long time. Now I have to understand that this problem is also my fault and I am going to have to put forth even more effort to get past it in order to save our marriage and once again, all my H has to do is keep his pants on?<P>It just feel so often that the betrayed has to bear the burden of the blame, the pain, the sacrifice, and the work while the betrayers sit back and tries to convince us to "get over it", "I'm all better", "she meant nothing to me". I'm going to use the phrase that I forbid my children to use "IT'S NOT FAIR!!"

Liz<BR>Thanks for posting this. <BR>I can vouch for the truth of it.<BR>The strength that I had during "the fight" was incredible. After the dust settled I was in a deep depression and the anger towards my H surfaced for the first time since discovery.<BR>There are a lot of things left to deal with after the worst is over. Those things are pushed aside during "the fight".<BR>I was tired - emotionaly, physicaly, mentally. Wondering if it was worth it. It was. There are still bad moments but they are less intense.<BR>The anger, depression etc. doesn't disappear if you leave the situation. It needs to be worked through either way. <BR>Wouldn't it be wonderful if life was suddenly glorious because the battle is done? I think the real work begins once the affair is over.<BR>Once again, Thanks for posting this!!<BR>It helps me feel a little more normal.

Essyboo:<P>Of course it's not fair. But it's not fair for anyone. You, your H, or the OP.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A bad marriage is usually caused by the failure of both spouses meeting needs [and don't forget lovebusting] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So, an affair is the product of a bad marriage. You had your hand in that as well, and (unfortunately)you are reaping what you've sown, so to speak. <P>Harley speaks of the marriage problems being BOTH parties fault. But the reason he gives the slant to the betrayed is because they're typically the one who's reading the damn book, and they also have a higher capacity (higher love bank balance) to do something about the marriage. His plan is based on EFFECTIVENESS, not on fairness. The end result is a good marriage. That's worth a whole lot---the alternative of divorce (without this process)is usually more painful then going through the Harley process.<P>It sounds like you and your h are stuck in the recovery process---it might be a good time to give Steve Harley a call...

Yes! That's exactly what I found out in my own case. And after reading about it happening to other people I got the idea that it is quite normal too.<BR>While we are fighting to get things to work, we hardly have time to grieve or to be angry. It's after, that all those things surface.<BR>In my case it helped that after the first or second time it happened I was able to talk to H and explain what I was going trough.He didn't completely understand but got enough of the idea to help out.<BR>Thanks for this post, I'm sure it will help other people going trough the same.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

just as i begin to trust, i start screaming more. H is trying so hard, and i just want to knock him back down.<BR>hope it ends soon.....

Hey Guys,<P>Late for the party. My son was hogging the computer today. He had to chat with his college buddies. <P>I certainly agree that I was to blame for the destruction of the marriage. I would go as far to say that I completely screwed it up. I put too much time in to the damned business. Val was the greatest. She would always suprise me with various gifts and just go out of her way to make me happy.<P>I was so consumed in making the business work that I lost my perspective. Hey, I was doing this so we would have a better life. I neglected her. She found someone else.<P>Things are going very well with the company. Wonderful. Who do I have to share it with? Yeah, there is an XGF that wants to get together. Great, more [censored] to contend with.<P>I have made great advances in the reconsiliation process with the W and am stuck that now I am not interested.<P>Somebody hates me.<P><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

I'm sorry, but I've always had a problem with Harley's concept that the betrayed created the environment, and we have some fault here. BS, as far as I'm concerned, the vows say for better or worse, forsaking all others....doesn't anyone see this?? So your emotional needs weren't meet, what planet do you live on that your needs are first? This is an excuse, a reason if you will to cheat. I've heard the real definition of love is a committment to be loving. That makes great sense to me, and if you are committed to be loving, you don't destroy. <P>In my case, he did this when I suffered a severe depression.....the vows again say in sickness and in health, no clause here either. MY needs were unmet at that time, I wanted to die...he chose to get laid. Does that sound like love???<P>His defense is that it had nothing to do with me and everything to do with his selfish nature, sounds accurate to me. I WILL NOT TAKE ANY BLAME HERE!!<P>We are suppose to be adults here and have self control. That's what committment is all about, we are not animals that are controlled by our impulses.<P>I just had to get this off my chest, because it angers me that it is so unfair we have all the work, we have to overcome SO much, while they just have to receive. <P>I haven't come to the place yet to decide if <BR>I can do this, but I know it doesn't sound like fun to me and yes, I've said it's not fair a million times. <P>Oh and by the way, all this lovebusting stuff gets to me too. What is the ultimate lovebuster??? INFIDELITY. Hello. I don't hide my feelings, he hears it all from me, I've had an unhealthy history of keeping my feelings in to keep the peace and look where that landed me, a former mental case. He has to be accountable and responsible. He doesn't deserve my love, understanding, blah blah blah. He needs to understand just how destructive, cruel and evil this behavior is, regardless if I take him back or not. HE CREATED THIS MESS, HE HAS TO SEE WHAT HE'S DONE AND LIVE IN THE GARBAGE. That's part of the sowing and reaping. Sow to the wind reap the whirl wind.<P>I know I must sound like a raving lunatic, actually I'm a very calm person, I just get angered by the injustice of it all and when my H and I speak, believe it or not I am very civial. I do though, tell him exactly how I feel and he listens and takes it all and apologizes. He does need to know exactly what the results of this behavior are. No tip toeing for me. Call it what you will, but I know for me I must be true to myself and no longer hold those feelings in for fear of rocking the boat, it's been sunk anyway.

I think this is what Harley is talking about when he says that by the end it will either succeed in bring you back together or <B>you will no longer have feelings of love for your spouse</B><P>The emotional injustice and supreme effort required for the <B>betrayed</B> spouse to be the one bending over backward can't be sustained long term without creating either total emotional exhaustion or seething resentment. It's like "I've worked my a@@ off to win you back and now you think maybe I've kissed your a@@ enough to deem me worthy of a positive response?!!" <P>Mmmmmm... I better stop here...Blood...pressure...rising... :-)

should I have offered Valium with this post?<P>tee hee.<P>sorry to get you guys riled, I just found it nice to know I am normal.<P>liz<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

I sometimes feel that Harley's methods just encourage codependence. If you can live with that and the betrayer's affair ends for whatever reason he will settle for your and you are codependent enough to be happy.<P>If he doesn't chose to come back you have been beaten down for so long that you are so scarred and hardened that you can walk away with relief.<P>If he does want to come back and you don't manage to feel love for him then you are the failure for the end of the marriage as well as the affair.

I have to agree with essyboo, regarding the fault issue. Since my h wants to stay with me, (never intended on leaving me, these affairs never entered that stage) has been sorry and repentive and working to fix this all along. Yet I don't know if I want him now. So if I divorce him I AM AT FAULT, ug how cruel is that. He can cheat with 5 women for almost 3 years, then feel sorry about it, try his best, and I am the bad guy. Life confuses me most days.<P>I just feel that if I were single and I met a man who cheated on his wife like he did, I would run like the wind. So why should I want him, just because he was MY h? That doesn't make sense does it?<P>And by the way, this hardnest of the heart issue has me way confused. Didn't Jesus say when questioned why Moses allowed for divorce say , because of the hardness of their hearts , he allowed this , but I say there is a better way. Except for the case of infidelity, marriage should be for life. Paraphases my own. <P>I think that scripture is there because God knows how difficult this is, the covenent is broken. Maybe I need more bible study, but I don't see it that simply.<P>Any thoughts?

Crushed,<P>I don't mean to be an [censored] here, but, I would ask you what planet are you from. We are talking about living, breathing human beings here. We all have wants and needs to be met by someone. Hopefully we would like it to be our S. This is not always the case, enter reality. This is not a perfect world. If it was I would not have such a big nose.<P>If we were to believe your thoughts regarding vows. I would still be married to my first W, not that it would be bad. I think your ideas would also translate into the laws of the land and we would not need the police to enforce same. Obviously that will never happen. Laws are suggestions and are only enforced if you get caught. Like an affair. Tag, your'e it!<P>I was married before and I was the betrayer. I'm not proud of it. If the marriage would have been satisfying I would not have strayed. I don't blame Toni for the destruction of the union. I was also a part of it. It IS NOT a 50/50 situation. It is a 100/100. I hate to tell you but you were an integral part of the problem. It's not like you were hit by a bus. That would have been a random act and really messy. We are responsible for our own moves. Like it or not.<P>I f*cked up and will be the first to admit it. I do not hold Val to be souly responsible for the affair. I am just as much to blame.<P>You may not agree with Dr H's principles and that's fine. But, you must take responsibility for you actions or inactions.<P>OK, I'm done.<BR> <P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

Medic,<BR>I would be a lot more willing to take some of the blame for the "deterioration" of the marriage if my H had given me some clue that it was deteriorating. After he left, he kept saying that it was nothing I did or didn't do, just that he didn't like my basic personality, something that apparently took him 24 years to discover. <P>I would be glad to take responsibility for my actions or inactions, if I'd had known what the H*** they were.

Nellie,<BR>my H said the same, among othr things. It wasn't specifically anything I had or hadn't done. And I felt like you:"And did it take you 16 years, to realise that????"<BR>However I looked back ust the same. And although I don't blame myself for the affair - nothing I could have done, even wrong, could justify the affair - I did find some things that could have helped the whole feeling of, or maybe rather "nonfeeling"thing.I wasn't the only one who made mistakes. SO did he.And I don't take those ones I did, as the complete cause for the affair, more like triggers here and there that got us apart without any of us even noticing.These were also things he felt but couldn't pinpoint. And what I did was not as much redeem myself of any wrongdoing but more correctingsome not so perfect routines that were affecting our marriage negatively. I did make sure that I made time to be together - no mater how crazy our schedules were. I had been the one neglecting that just because we both had 3 jobs at the time, different schedules, and hey, Iwas tired.But, we still have all those jobs, I am still tired, but found different ways of still be in touch, and enjoy together time. Same with communication, I was closing into myself instead of talking to him. Our life( in general) was not at its best at the time, and I was just closing and getting bitter. He on the other hand kept taking my attitude as a lack of interest,both in helping and in himself. Things like that... things that make a marriage and we sometimes mess up without noticing.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat

Nellie,<P>Val did try to tell me a few years back that there were problems. I made some changes and the complaining stopped. Hey, I fixed it. NOT. I didn't realize that she was walking away from me and the marriage.<P>I think if you look back you will find clues. Maybe not as obvious as what I got. But they are still there.<P>I really don't believe that there is someone alive that would just walk out of a good marriage.<P>I got the hints and still messed it up.<P>Tim

POGP, thank you for the post. Yes, I can relate. On the one hand things are going way good - considering the nightmare that we're coming out of - but of late I find myself extremely angry and tormented afresh about what has happened. I figured it must be the rage surfacing, and yes, I too find myself asking the same questions - is this what I want? etc. <BR> It's like the breech is catching up to me. I'm seeing her different. I feel I'm in a dangerous time - is it only pride? It feels like more.<BR> It's like the only way ahead is to forget the previous life and start all over. I mean looking back over the early years, it's like those times have even now been robbed - like this event even reaches backwards to the past posining even what was..does this make any sense?<BR> Those days use to bring me comfort, now they're like salt in the wound. I'm thinking the only way forward is to start anew and not so much as try and revive the past - but like a new marriage, a new relationship - I'm just very angry lately. I've been reading posts here for months and decided to write something. Please excuse the rambling, I'm just feeling alot of hurt still. <BR>Thank you all for your posts.<P>------------------<BR>Malcomb<P><BR>

Up<p>[This message has been edited by Malcomb (edited January 02, 2000).]

Up<p>[This message has been edited by Malcomb (edited January 02, 2000).]