The blame issue cannot be ignored. I don't care how hard we try I have to face it.<P>I told my H for years that I wasn't happy with the way I was being treated by him, he ignored me and even belittled me for letting his thoughtlessness bother him. <P>He never gave me any indication that he was being tempted to have an affair, but he did tell me constantly how dissappointed he was in my body. He told me that his affair was physical in nature and he found her attractive. How could I have prevented that without having had all the plastic surgery. I feel that was beyond my control.<P>How do you start a new relationship with someone that has hurt you so deeply, especially when there wasn't a good relationship before to remember?<P>I am very angry. For 13 years I was unhappy, but still felt secure in a strange sort of way so that became my basis of love, then he has an affair that lasted over a year that was solely based on physical attraction and sex and I have to face that after 14 years of being told the he did not find me attractive. Now I'm supposed to start a new relationship with this man. What would be our foundation other than 3 children.

Hi Lizzie,<P>We seem to have two topics going here within your thread:<P>1. After the betrayed has fought the valiant battle & won, they often have reservations about reconciling the marriage. <P>I think Medic is a classic example of that, right now. I am not even close to winning the battle, however, I have been seeing some signs that my H's fantasy is unraveling. I, too, am having some serious doubts about getting back together. I think it's mainly due to fear. I am having dreams where I see H, & have absolutely NO feelings for him. I have NO desire to contact him. I can feel myself tense up when he calls my workplace, & they announce his call prior to transferring him to me. To be honest, I am afraid of him because his behaviour has been so irrational and unpredictable. It gave me tremendous peace of mind when I had the locks rekeyed after he moved out. Prior to that time, when he was living elsewhere locally, he would just 'pop-in' unannounced, & I would nearly jump out of my skin. I was a nervous wreck. He seemed to get pleasure out of seeing me jump. I always felt like he was checking up on me. When he is the one cheating!! I have turned my anger inward, & am being treated for depression. Prior to starting medication, I was having some serious thoughts of suicide. I knew I had to get some help. But, I made sure I didn't reveal this to the doctors, as I knew they would have me admitted. Anyway, my very essence of life was threatened, along with every other aspect of my life. I honestly, have doubts that I could survive this again. And, I have also been wondering when/if my anger is going to surface. How is that going to impede a reconciliation, if I decide to try?<P>2. An inordinate amount of the burden of reconciling seems to fall on the betrayed.<P>I'm sorry, but I have to side with Essy, & Crushed on this one. I am realistic enough to assume some of the responsibility for helping to "create an environment" for the affair, however, ultimately the destructive action IS the responsibility of the betrayer- 100%. To blame the betrayed would be like blaming the candy shop owner for someone stealing his candy. How could it be his fault that someone succumbed to temptation? Should he be made to lock up all his candy? I think not.<P>I think that most of Harley's principles are sound, however, I don't think his principles adequately address the classic mid-life crisis. In MLC, very often the betrayer emotionally disengages from a "good" marriage with lies, secrets, & deception. Often, the betrayer doesn't even let on that they are becoming disillusioned with the marriage. The betrayed isn't given as much as a chance to address any problems. This describes my case. When I asked my H, after discovery, why he didn't tell me he was so unhappy, he replied, "I didn't know how unhappy I was". Now, if he didn't know he was unhappy, how the he&#0124; &#0124; was I supposed to know??? Then, when I desperately tried to uncover what it was that I did or didn't do, the only answer I ever got was, "It's not you, it's me. You didn't do anything wrong. You've always been the perfect wife". <P>I believe that there are important emotional needs that CANNOT be met by one's spouse, or anyone else for that matter. Self-esteem is one of them. Self-esteem can only be built, & sustained by the individual themselves through a constant, & continual series of positive actions. A spouse can 'enhance' one's self-esteem through complimentary remarks, but, if the basic foundation is not there, the words are useless. That's because the betrayer won't believe what is being said by the spouse. In my case, I clearly saw how my H's job situation was eroding his self-esteem. But, the more I tried to help him with the situation, the more he resented me. And, believe me, I never badgered, belittled, pushed, or threatened him. Perhaps, my only mistake was not throwing him out on his a$$. If I am guilty, it's of being too tolerant, loving, and accepting.<P> <P>

My H's affair wasn't about unmet needs, it was about curiosity. He wanted to experience sex with someone besides me, He wanted to experience sex with "an attractive woman with large breasts" that sort of thing.<P>I could not satisfy that.<P>He continued to experience it with the same "large breasted attractive woman" his opinion, not mine, for over a year and then tried to tell me it meant nothing and he still loved me.<P>There is no way to comprehend this in any sort of rational way. He acts as if I should just accept the fact that it is out of his system now and won't happen again. I can't do that. <P>What if, after we are old, he decides he wants to experience sex with a young woman. What if he starts getting curious about different races of women, how do I protect our marriage from that.

I am late to this thread too, and I also have some thoughts:<P>I side with Essy, Crushed and Sid on this one... when my H cheated it was 100% <B>his problem</B> and when I did, it was 100% <B>my problem</B>. <P>This idea that the betrayed have to do all the working and fighting for the marriage is ridiculous to me... I'll tell you how *I* see it... whoever is <B>stronger</B> will do the fighting... and it <B>isn't</B> fair, but that's how it is.<P>Okay, so when my H and I cheated, there were unmet needs... but hey, if we use all of Harley's "rules" we could still get "cheated on", so... who's fault is it when the needs <B>are</B> being met and the partner cheats? I suppose someone will say that a spouse <B>absolutely, positively will not cheat if the needs are being met</B>. Poppycock! People cheat for all sorts of reasons: MLC, depression, curiosity, sexual desire/dysfunction... C'mon guys, let's face it, the cheater has to take full responsibility for the cheating!!<P>So, I was unhappy. Big whoop. So are a million other married people who <B>never</B> cheat. What sets them apart from me, as a betrayer? They chose not to cheat. Period.<P>Look, I love myself, and it's taken months (if not years) to realize that. I made a mistake, but I can see the good in it (it was a wake-up call to <B>me</B> to get my head together, and also for my H, unfortunately) because of my therapy. One thing I have realized is that *I* did this to us...not David, not OM...<B>ME</B>. And I speak strictly of the infidelity...there are so many other problems that I won't address here. But as far as cheating... the <B>cheater</B> is responsible for their actions.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Nobody knows what you want except you, and nobody will be as sorry as you if you don't get it. ~Barry Manilow

POGP,<P>I guess I have some thoughts on the item 2. As Sidney so correctly pointed out, there are two thoughts going on this thread. <P>My take on the Harley method is not that it is one persons fault or anothers as much as the person who wants the marriage to work had better change something. Since you cannot change your spouse, it has to be YOU. I believe he is correct that whether you like it or not, the spouse left for a reason (or unreason if you like ). If you can identify the reasons or some of the reasons, that the spouse left and correct those, then there is effort being made to repair the marriage. <P>It seems that people here are taking the point of view, that admitting that the state of the marriage had something to do with departure of the spouse is the same as letting the betraying spouse off scott free. There was a question asked in the last few days "Would rather be right or be married". If the betrayed spouse doesn't want to be married, then you don't need marriagebuilders: end of story. <P>Since you are here it would seem that you do want to make the marriage work. The betraying spouse is out in fantasy land, and won't be back for awhile. The reasons for the trip to fantasy land are still here. The betrayed can do something about fixing them, while the betrayer is out to lunch.<P>You don't have to do any of this and most of it won't be appreciated until the affair is over, but if you do the Plan A and/or Plan B then you have a chance to restore your marriage. Is it fair? No. Is it balanced? No, but equality is only a mathematical concept anyway. <P>If you want the marriage to be restored, the one who wants it to be restored gets stuck with the job at hand. The betrayer pays the bill much later. Just read some of the posts of betrayers and their problems. <P>So it seems to me many of you are taking the wrong tack on this. It is not about fairness, or who was really to blame for the whole mess. It is about expediency, who can do the job of rebuilding. If you can, you get the job.<P>Harley's principles are classic problem solving principles. Make something happen and try to change the status quo. If you just sit and wait for spouse to come back, some will but the statistics show that if you just set and blame marriages don't get rebuilt.<P>Whether you want to or not is item one, and the initial thrust of this thread. <P>Crushed, if your H had not been willing to take a straight dose of you anger and admit he was very wrong, do you think your behavior would have enticed him to reconsider the marriage? That is where all of this is you know, who wants to do what when. There are many betrayer here trying to rebuild what they destroyed and they use the same steps as the betrayed. It is about reestablishing a friendly and "safe" ground to address the issues that are very hard to address.<P> <BR>Does this make any sense to anyone? I hope so. <P>Happy New Year to all.<P>JL<BR>

Tim,<BR>I think Sidney explained it very well. There are many, many people who walk out of a good marriage - and depression and MLC are major causes. My H never told me he was unhappy with our marriage. It was obvious, in retrospect, that he was severely depressed. I suspect now that he felt guilty for the job change that severely damaged us financially, and that he felt like he had failed. After he left he said that he had messed up his life so badly that he didn't think it could ever be fixed, and I don't think he was just referring to having married me. <P>Kat,<BR>I am sure I was nowhere near perfect, but I wish I knew what I could have done differently. After he left he came up with various complaints, some of them about things that happened twenty years ago, but he has completely rewritten our history together. Very little of what he complained about after he left did he ever mention while he was still living at home.

Bravo Sidney You speak my thoughts exactly!!! I am fuming-frothing at the mouth mad! I am so damn tired of trying to figure out why my H betrayed me-with my supposed "best friend" a more than willing accomplice-maybe even the instigator?? I am tired of trying to blame ME for what HE did. Sure I a guilty of being human-meaning I am not perfect as none of us are! But you all know what? I was here day and night-always here for him. Where was he? Working his [censored] off like he chose to do-two jobs all the time because he was a workaholic. Where was I? Home with my kids playing on my computer. Now I get heck not only from H but the OW also despised my time on the computer. Not one of them want to realize that this was my soul link to sanity-having others to chat with freely to pass time while I waited for HIM. For nine years I begged my H to spend time with me and the kids-he didn't have time. But time for someone else he did find. I am so mad!!! I ahve known now for seven months-and with each passing day I get more and more angry. Like I said I am not perfect but I was always here for H and I have always loved H-if that isn't enough then it is HIS problem. When I felt bad that he was working so much and we wanted to have our horses and try to buy a house of our own I took on another job. So what if I was too tired from scrubbing other peoples toilets and doing books for other people and taking care of a house and two kids-so what! Is it a sin to not bow to each request our SO might have? NO-because I never stopped loving him-everything about him-and all he had to dow as say we need a time out here-we need to make time for each other-we are too busy! As much as I believe in working on my marriage I refuse to take any blame for the choices he made. And I refuse to stay in a marriage that only I will work at. <BR>It is a cheap shot to accuse anyone else of the choices you yourself make-and New Beginning at least can admit to that. She has been on both ends of the rope and knows it is an individual choice.<BR>And these so called needs that are being un-met seem to only be "sex". Sure the kind words spoken by the OP lead to that but it all boils down to "sex". And my H did get that from ME!<P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<BR>"Loyalty Is A Two Way Street"<BR>

Nellie, sidney, Tim, everyone:<P>It's nobody's blame and yet is both, in OUR case I was out (unconsciously) shopping for an OP, she moved faster than me… then over the years I was about to betray her many, & I mean MANY times: once I got out of bed from a potential OW & we had already forplayed… it wasn't virtue what stopped me, it was pure FEAR of losing my family.<P>I agree w/ Tim- it's not 50/50 but 100%… when you pronounce your vows you do not promise to give 50% of love or whatever but 100% of everything. IF you, she, he or I had given 100% we wouldn't be here posting. The fact of the matter is… we are as guilty (if there is a guilty one) as the betrayer. I told W the other night that I wouldn't like to be in her shoes, "why? –she asked- because you are better?"; "No", I said, "because the ball is in your side of the court".<P>I hate her-I love her-I cannot stand her-she's so selfish-I'm so-good. I say B.S., we are here because we were selfish & self-centered just as they are right now. Even at this particular moment as I type I am beginning to feel angry because she doesn't think about MY needs, only hers (wonder what would it be like if I had gotten "lucky" before she did…)<P>And then is the original Medic's issue… Tim: told you yesterday & still believe it… your feelings are in that sack. YOU GOTTA GET THEM OUTA THERE & START WORKING ON THEM!!!! It's been too long since you last afforded to let them out!!!<P>Sorry, guys, I just let go. Hang in there & happy Y2K.<P>ALEX<P>------------------<BR>Live and learn

I let go of alot of my anger here, then my H reads what I post and gets mad.<P>I started a Mad Journal at home, he found it and read it. I felt very violated by that. I expressed my anger there to protect him from it, It was my personal diary on my personal nightstand, and he opened and read and then got mad over what he read.<BR>

Hey Alex,<P>I was looking in the sack for my feelings for her. I couldn't find them. It appears that there is a hole in the bottom and they must have fallen out somewhere.<P>Val called this afternoon to wish me a happy new year. Nice chat. She's going to some big party at a local hotel. I didn't want to go. Don't feel like hanging with her friends and co workers. When we were saying good bye, she said "I love you". I couldn't say it back. <P>Essy,<P>I like the idea of your MAD journal. I can't believe what your H said to you regarding the OW.<P><P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

from ripped aparts wife :<BR>Does it really matter who instigated the affair, and just because the spouse said the OP did, does that make it so?? If the man had his arm on the Op arm ( before the first kiss ) and he is the one who pulled the other person over, and spent weeks talking about an affair with this person make him less responsible? I dont think so.<BR>Of course the spouse is going to blame the Op,,, think they would admit to ANYTHING??<BR>Why would they admit to 5 times, when it was more than that?? Why would they lie and say they didnt call the OP from a certain place, don't they know phone records of in-coming calls can prove different? I could spend a lifetime writing about the lies he told.<BR>I know this doesn't make sense to most of you,just rambling.<BR>R.A.W.

Dear friends,<P>My h. has said many times that I couldn't have done anything to stop the affair, he had decided to end the marriage and find someone else, in fact the OW approached him after he was turned down by two other co-workers. He did it because he felt trapped and that he had married too young and never experienced any other women (only had two girlfriends before me, very little sexual experience, etc.)<P>What Essy said:<P>-------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>My H's affair wasn't about unmet needs, it was about curiosity. He wanted to experience sex with someone besides me,.<BR>____________________<BR>is exactly our situation, with some unmet admiration needs thrown in, an early MLC and lots of grief over the loss of his mother.<P>I have been reading Torn Asunder again today, and it is good to know that these bouts of rage and hyssy fits are NORMAL and part of the healing process.<P>I think it will improve when he phones OW to ask her to discontinue contact (which started back up when she responded to a bulk email for their prof. association).<P>This assumes, of course, that she doesn't ask him to meet in person.<P>So I wait. The holidays have gone well, no LB on my part except the hyssy fit Christmas night when he admitted he he been in contact with her.<P>Thanks for all the responses,<BR>hope the original post of JB's information has helped someone.<P>Lizziepearl<P>------------------<BR><BR>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR>

Tim,<P>Right now I have the same feelings for C… that you have for Val. It's weird because it was only five weeks (down to the minute) that I learned about her affair, and just last week I was miserable. The true of the matter is in this moment I have no feelings for her, no love, no hate, no jealousy, no sympathy, no resentments, nothing, but been numb is part of the process I guess and also a way of self-protection.<P>There is a site that has helped me on all this, it's good & you may find it useful. It's at <A HREF="http://www.survivingloss.com" TARGET=_blank>www.survivingloss.com</A> <P>Take care, Tim<P>------------------<BR>Live and learn<p>[This message has been edited by ThisAlex (edited January 01, 2000).]

Nellie, I'm sorry to answer so late, I have been away from the computer.<BR>I want to tell you that I understand perfectly what you are saying, and that I felt like you as well, if I just could know what had brought this thing.<BR>Rewriting history is the right description for it. In 16 years of marriage, none of the good stuff was rememebered, only the not so good things, and like you some over 20 years old when we weren't even married. Also he seemed to have reconstructed things. I was starting to get confused, but even in a confused state I didn't rememeber most of the things he was listing - well I couldn't they heither hadn't happened, or at least not the way he was saying -. What he was doing was trying as hard as he could to justify the affair, and he was bending things so much that he was starting to bellieve they had happened that way in reality.<BR>SO Nellie, I do understand. I was just writiting what I found out in my own case.<BR>I also want to say that I read just learning ( i think) answer and that I agree with it. Due to the circumstances , and although it seems unfair, at that time, it is the person that wants the marriage to work that has to work harder. WHich of course usually is the betrayed. There's no other way about it, because the betrayer - in most cases - is in a far away land, not ready to work on anything that doesn't have to do with op and all the nice things happening in their lives. That's reality and it sucks, but it's the way it is. Only much later will the betrayer have the help of the spouse, but the preliminary work has to be done by the person that wants the marriage to wrok, and obviously it is not the betrayer, at least at the early stages.<BR>WEll put Just learning.<BR>Take care everybody,<BR>Kat