My mind seems to be racing this week and I’m sure it’s because WH is across the country on business. My mind normally races, but these thoughts are much different.

Even though H has started counseling, I just don’t think he can be honest or faithful to me (or anyone for that matter). I was visiting his mother and grandmother the other day and they were talking about how he used to go from job to job and was never committed to anything in his life. They also mentioned how they can never get an honest answer out of him. So this lying is so ingrained in him and such a big part of who he really is.

So I’m thinking I might suggest we see other people. I don’t have anyone waiting in the wings, but I do believe there is better fish in the sea. I enjoy spending time with my H, but I obsess horribly. I think I would feel less obsessive about what he’s doing if we agreed to it. I was never one to “play the field” when I was single, so I’m not sure if this is for me.

Does this make any sense? I want him in my life, but I also want more of a life and I just don’t see that happening with all my obsessing and negativity. I wouldn’t need to check his VM or email, because I’d be giving up my right to that information.

My H is enjoying the benefits of an open marriage without my consent. I asked him if we could have one about 6 months ago (so I could enjoy the benefits as well), but he said no.

Anyway, these are the thoughts that keep me awake at night these days!

Have an awesome day!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Free, Your H sounds like a male version of my W when it comes to the lying and commitment stuff. As much as I know you want to be happier, what you suggest ( I don;t think) will make you happy. My advise, for what it's worth,and that's probably not much, is to resolve your M one way or another, and try to find some peace. Then , if it turns out that way, play the field. You will respect yourself more in the long run.

Free2BMe,

Trust is earn not given ... be patient, time will proves it.

So this lying is so ingrained in him and such a big part of who he really is.
This is honesty part of 4 gifts of love ... if one really commit and dedicate to work on M ... people could change but the question is would he ?.

Don't speculate ... don't judge ... look at minute improvement in his behavior and give a reward to him, male needs to be trained <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Does he call that usually he is not ? ... if he does show apreciation in the way that H likes ... make him call again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

-RH-

Thanks for the replies!

I know what I suggest would only make me more miserable (if that's possible to sink lower than where I'm already at). I believe this is just another control tactic on my part and I don't think my H could meet my expectations. I think I'm continually setting him up for failure with my expectations. I don't want to set him up anymore.

On a positive note, I've only checked his VM once since he's been gone and I haven't checked his email since Tuesday. And I don't feel too stressed about it. Sure there's one questionable VM message, but I'm not going to let it bother me and I doubt I'll even mention it to him.

Do I think he's up to no good on this trip? 80% of me feels he has been faithful in word and deed. Is that good enough to sustain our marriage? It's definately a big improvement. I say word because he just needs that rush of a new relationship, it's not always about sex with him, and so I feel threatened by any woman he talks to. He is working on opposite sex friendship boundaries with his counselor.

So I'll continue being positive, go to counseling with him (either sit in on the session or wait in the car, it's his call), and see what tomorrow brings!

He usually touches base with me mid day and then early evening. When he first left I would hear from him first thing in the morning and later in the evening so I've wondered if he spends nights alone or not. I used to call his hotel room on past trips in the middle of the night to see if he was there or to listen for background noises (a sleepy woman's voice).

I guess I have to believe him since there's absolutely no way to prove anything different.

Sorry to ramble again!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Free2BMe,

Just a sugestion ... part of training male ... ask him nicely to call you at 10PM on one of those night. Train H to meet your need, even tell him that you are lonely & missed H when he is away (admirations) and you get affections <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

I guess I have to believe him since there's absolutely no way to prove anything different.
No, you should believe only in God. You trust him on this one ... and it is his to break the trust <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Have you try to talk to H about this ?. about your worries ?. If you did and failed, do you mind sharing the detail so probably Orchid & co could give their point of view ?.

-RH-

Hello Free,

I am glad that you posted an update of sorts.

As for your thought:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I&#8217;m thinking I might suggest we see other people. I don&#8217;t have anyone waiting in the wings, but I do believe there is better fish in the sea. I enjoy spending time with my H, but I obsess horribly. I think I would feel less obsessive about what he&#8217;s doing if we agreed to it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

MHO is do NOT suggest this and do not agree to it if H ever suggests it. Here's why...

It sounds like you are trying to protect your H from failure and, as a consequence, yourself from the hurt of such a failure. (That is, if you had this agreement and your H saw someone else, then he would not have 'failed' and you would not be 'entitled' to feel hurt. The problem here is that you would be hurt anyway, whether you were 'entitled' to or not; and your H would have the 'but you said we should' excuse ready made. So, in a sense, you have agreed to his hurting you.)

And what that says to me is that you are scared; scared to trust H with your feelings; scared H will stumble or fall; scared that you will be hurt again in this attempt to reconcile; scared your H won't be able to make the 'big changes' that you know are necessary.

Unfortunately, Free, there's little that you can do with that fear. It is human, it is understandable (and then some) in the circumstances, and it is simply how you feel. So, why deny it? Why try to devise a scheme to distract your fears?

Instead, face those fears with your eyes wide open or walk away from them. The translation of that is: either stay on the path towards reconciliation while expecting your H to live up to his end of the bargain and being completely honest to yourself about his behavior OR give up on reconciliation, don't have contact with H, and concentrace only on you and your life (at least for some period of time). Those are the only two options that are going to get YOU anywhere, or your M for that matter.

The agreement you are thinking about will only muddy the waters, take you off the path of either M recovery or personal healing (and probably both), and keep your head and heart spinning and spinning, IMHO.

I am glad to hear that your H is in IC. Hopefully the counsellor is an effective one; and I think that your sitting in at a session would be great. It might give you some insight into how to assist your H or talk to him about some of the boundaries issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just a suggestion&#8230; part of training a male&#8230; ask him nicely to call you at 10PM on one of those nights. Train H to meet your needs, even tell him you are lonely & missed H when he is away (admiration) and you get affections <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-RH-, I understand what you&#8217;re saying with the training. It&#8217;s just that after 2 ½ years I shouldn&#8217;t have to do any training. Maybe that&#8217;s where I&#8217;m wrong, I have high expectations and assume that if I say something once I shouldn&#8217;t have to keep saying it. I still live by the agreement we made 3 years ago when we counseled with our pastor that we would not have opposite sex friends. Yet whenever I question emails and cell phone calls from women he states they are just friends.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you try to talk to H about this? About your worries?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes! Last night I told him about being 80% sure he&#8217;s faithful while on this trip. I told him what my thoughts were regarding the lack of morning/evening calls. He did call me when he got to his room last night, but with the time difference he had to wake me up. I told him I was okay with that as long as he called. And he called me first thing this morning (his time) today and he asked how I was doing and if he had relieved my worries, which he did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I tend to take his reassurances with a grain of salt as he did that in the past and was still up to no good.

-RH-, thanks so much for your diligence and support on these boards. You and Orchid are super troopers with your responses.

Hello, Oneday,

How are your feeling these days? Thank you for taking the time once again to respond to me, you point out some very good aspects and I would like to address them further.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It sounds like you are trying to protect your H from failure and, as a consequence, yourself from the hurt of such a failure.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is a very true statement. I&#8217;ve gone from setting him up for failure to protecting us from the failure. In my heart I believe his/our failure is inevitable (based on our history).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what this says to me is that you are scared; scared to trust H with your feelings; scared H will stumble or fall; scared that you will be hurt again in this attempt to reconcile; scared your H won&#8217;t be able to make the &#8216;big changes&#8217; that you know are necessary.

Unfortunately, Free, there&#8217;s little you can do with that fear. It is normal, it is understandable (and then some) in the circumstances, and it is simply how you feel. So, why deny it? Why try to devise a scheme to distract your fears?

Instead, face those fears with your eyes wide open or walk away from them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In accepting these fears, do I voice them to H? I&#8217;m really getting tired of all the relationship talks I want to engage in. Very rarely does he start them and I feel as though I am just being a nag.

I want to stop trying to control our marriage &#8211; I want to stop checking his email and VM. I want to trust him to do the right thing where our marriage is concerned and to set the proper boundaries with women. Yet, I hesitate. I still haven&#8217;t checked these things since Wednesday morning and I do feel more relaxed. I would check his email and freak out if I saw he responded to other emails before mine or if he read mine, but didn&#8217;t respond right away. Or I would freak over other little things. One thing that really bothers me -&#8211;that we've discussed &#8211; is his shortening of names when he speaks or writes to women. Like he&#8217;ll refer to Laurie as Laur, Mary as Mar or Julie as Jules. It really bothers me because I think it&#8217;s too personal and puts an intimate emphasis towards the person. I told him a few times that it bothers me and he said he&#8217;d stop, yet I still see he does it in his emails. Also, he will start an email with &#8220;Hey, YOU&#8221; to people. He has done that with me and I thought he only did it with me. Capitalizing the YOU, I think, puts too much of an emphasis on that person. Am I being way too picky on this stuff?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad to hear your H is in IC. Hopefully the counselor is an effective one</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told my H I would give this counselor a chance and I wouldn&#8217;t make any hasty decisions right now. He actually covered a lot during the initial session from what my H told me. The counselor asked him if he would consider leaving his current job since one OW works with him and the C was pleased we&#8217;d discussed that ourselves and H agreed. I was pleased that C mentioned that in case H thought I was just being unreasonable.

Thanks again for the wonderful replies!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Free2BMe,

I am reading the language of love (again and again) ... I am highly recomend it. The use of word pictures are really powerfull. Basically you talk to your H in the way that H could understand ... try to compose word pictures of your situation to your H, specially your 2.5 years ... it seems this dog (no disrepect) could be trained ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . The road to recovery is very narrow ...... a prolong stale M is not good. -copied from someone sig ... pain is given but misery is optional - RH -

-RH-,

My H is an educated man and loves to throw big words around so word pictures are not something he needs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My H used to be very passionate about his feelings and he would share his heart with me (even cry), but he is so closed to me for the past 2.5 years. He hasn't showed emotions since about 6 months prior to our marriage.

Last night he said he wished we could get back to when we both trusted each other and felt secure in our relationship. I told him that we will never again be that way - not with everything that has happened. I would love to wave a wand and feel trust and safety with him, but we can't erase what's happened.

If I could just see some remorse, some tears, I think I could get beyond this and let the past rest. I have never seem a tear shed by him. Lately he blames that lack of emotions on his medication, yet, he said he cried a few weeks ago thinking about his deceased father. I would love for him to stop his meds so I could see his emotions, but I think I'll also see his anger.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Free2BMe,

The effectiveness of word pictures nothing got to do with education level. It is a bridge to comunicate. However I agree with you, it is not something that both of you need since you could not pin point on what will make you safe and he is willing to go the nine yards. Only time will heal both of you .... remember PTC from both side.

Why you say you see anger in him ?. Anger of what he did ? or anger at having a stale M ? -RH-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by redhat:
<strong>The effectiveness of word pictures nothing got to do with education level. It is a bridge to comunicate.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know - my lame attempt at humor today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>remember PTC from both side.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PTC? Huh?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Why you say you see anger in him ?. Anger of what he did ? or anger at having a stale M ?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-RH-, I think temper was the word I needed to use. My H has a short fuse at times. At one time, when I would question him he would turn the tables by intimidating me and making me cringe with his words. I haven't seen that in him since he started the meds.

Could you please reread what I wrote about the things in H's emails that bug me and tell me if I'm making too much out of nothing? Thanks!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 19, 2002, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Free2BMe ]</small>

Free2BMe,

Both of you long for fullfiling M just couldn't get there yet. PTC ... patience, time and consistent ... are what both of you need. Improving inch by inch, dancing around the issues, keeping the communication open but progress is there even it is very slow.

About your issue on email, yes two peoples could look at the same situation and have different point of view. The key in here is negotiation & communication ... open up to H and ask him to change that since it is bugging you ... w/o LB'ed and find the right time and words.

About anger ... reread POJA ... walk away when any one of you start getting too emotional (in negative way), don't push it.

-RH-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by redhat:
<strong>PTC ... patience, time and consistent</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhhh! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>open up to H and ask him to change that since it is bugging you ... w/o LB'ed and find the right time and words.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have asked him to stop and I explained it hurts me. He said he would stop, but he has not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>About anger ... reread POJA ... walk away when any one of you start getting too emotional (in negative way), don't push it.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have learned to do this.

I think you and I have way too much time on our hands - we've been back and forth a bit today! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for your guidance!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />