I've been listening to the "Queen of Mean" aka, Dr. Laura, for the last few weeks. For those not familiar, she's a radio personality that dispenses morality advice to the teeming masses.<P>She's very consistent.<P>One point that she seems to keep making is that character really doesn't change. Kind of a, "you are what you are" thing. <P>My W and I have been in recovery since Oct 98. It's just been too long. The ups and downs have taken its toll. She promises no contact...I discover more contact...The arguments never seem to cease...its still "all my fault"...still lots of covert behavior...the list could go on and on. She's still manipulative, still lying.<P>I've read all the books, been to three different counselors, did plan A, did plan B.<P>Well folks, I gave up. Told the W I want a divorce. Her reaction was predictable. Ranting, raving, threatening. Funny thing though. She never asked me why I want a divorce, only what she was going to do to me because of it. She even threatened to tell my 5-year-old daughter that I was leaving her.<P>Back to this character thing. When I met my W she had been married once. She told me she really only got married to get out of her parents house, and ended the marriage because her then husband refused to work. They were both really young, and I reasoned that the marriage was probably a mistake from the beginning. After we married, I found out that she cheated on the guy and physically abused him. Then involved the police and tried to have HIM arrested! Sounds just like my marriage.<P>Last February (4 months after discovery) my W pushed me into buying her a new wedding ring (5K!) saying that "she wanted to renew our vows and restart our marriage". Two weeks after the ring was delivered, she told me "I want you to move out, so I can find myself". <P>Now I feel like I've made a colossal mistake and its best to just cut my losses. She called me at work yesterday to reaffirm my decision and find out my plans.<P>I'll be at home, sleeping on the couch until my credit card bills are paid. About three months.<P>Then I'm gone.<BR>

From what I recall, Dr. Laura cheated on her first husband. Nothing is worse than the moral declarations of a reformed ex-whatever, (ex-smoker, ex-adulterer). The one thing I do tend to agree with her on is the issue of personal responsibility. What I don't agree on is her summary treatment of complex problems. But hey, it is a radio show. Can't get into too many details in 60 seconds. <P><BR>Character does change, but it takes alot of effort. You don't necessarily need to stick around to wait for the results either, if she is not willing to put forth some effort. It doesn't sound like your wife is willing to make the effort. I'm sorry you are going through all of this. My prayers are with you and your daughter. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited December 30, 1999).]

I wish you well, and that your life will turn out better THAN EVER....as for your wife she will learn her own lessons in life in her own way. This is a beginning for you not an end and I will pray that you have a wonderful life......either way!<BR>My heart goes out to you.

optimist:<P>People can change---I bet you'd say that the plan A/plan B efforts have changed you for the better. Your wife may not change---there are plenty of people who aren't motivated to change.<P>I'm sorry for your upcoming divorce, but it sounds like you're making the right decision for the right reasons, and I'm sure that you'll be more successful in future relationships!<P>God bless.

I wonder what Dr. Laura's success rate has been in counseling people with infidelity issues....<P>She is an entertainer, and that is it, in my opinion. Don't base your decisions on any truth's other people give you, search your heart for the real truth, and make your decisions based on that. <P>Not on Dr. Laura.

Thanks all.<P>I'm not basing this decision on Dr. Laura. I know she cheated on her first husband, and she tends to be very single-minded on complex issues. <P>But, something has been tearing away at my gut for the last few months.<P>Let me explain. I've always tried "to do the right thing". In times of crisis, I've allowed my logical mind to overide my intuition. Lately, this has caused a confilt/crisis...for me. Somehow I "know" that staying in this marriage is not going to help me. We could say that her behavior is classic withdrawal symptoms. That if I hung in there, possibly the marriage could be saved. But seriously folks, whats the point? Should I really have to put up with someone who has refused to value me, who has refused to honor her marriage? Who prefers this rollercoaster of a life, to a real commitment and all the benefits that come with it. <P>Perhaps my "love bank" is empty and I can't feel anything more for this women. I've done the right thing. Its time for me to have a life and put this mess behind me.

Optimist,<BR>Not only did Dr. Laura cheat but the all mighty preacher actually posed nude for pics, I really don't understand her almighty stands. I used to listen to her for hours but I found her to be too negative for my mind. She really almost had me screwed up so I'm glad your not making your decision based on just her. <BR>I feel for you, it's really hard to make things work, it's easy to walk away in pain sometimes and I know that your decision had a lot of thought to it. Please don't stop using this board though. There are other issues you will have to go through that go with this decision and you must know we are here for you. God Bless!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P>

Chick's, your right.<P>I spent the last six weeks trying to figure this one out. Here's what clinched it for me.<P>I gave up snooping a long time ago. I know that its counter productive. It only hurts you as you see continual betrayal, and it only hurts your spouse since they are constantly reminded that you don't trust them. The biggest reason is, that revealing what you find, only drives the behavior to be even more covert.<P>So I stopped snooping. The result was that I felt more at ease and able to provide plan A behavior. I did this for seven months.<P>Then, as a result of this knawing sensation that things weren't really progressing between us, I pulled up her cell phone bill over the net. It showed me that even after our big fight, my moving out, her going to jail, my going to jail, our supposed reconciliation, my insistence (and her agreement) that contact with the OM stop, almost from the moment I walked out the door to go to work, she was still using her cell phone to call and page this guy three times a day. <P>It took me right back to day one. The difference now is, I'm a stronger person and know that I don't have to tolerate this behavior anymore. From anyone.<BR>

Okay, so you don't file for divorce - just legal separation and then go to a strict plan B, and dont' check the cell phone stuff anymore.<P>And if that doesn't work, then you've done it all, and you can go to finalize the divorce without any delay...<P>Would that work?<BR>

Thanks TNT.<P>But how much is "enough"? ITS BEEN OVER A YEAR!<P>W called me about an hour ago, saying that this wasn't good for us or our daughter, and the I "need to stop", and that we need to work on our marriage.<P>So I revealed what I knew about the cell phone calls. She went nuts. Screaming, cursing, called me evil, threatened to change the locks, wants me out NOW, wants me dead, said I was a threat to her, wants to get an ex-parte order (restraining order), said I've been trying to make her lose the baby, said that she put my clothes in garbage bags, etc....<P>What great lengths we go to, to "not" except responsibility for our actions.<P>Had she just said, "yes, I'm sorry about that." "I'm sorry you had to find out the way you did."<P>

optimist:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Had she just said, "yes, I'm sorry about that." "I'm sorry you had to find out the way you did."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Then what... you'd give her another chance???<P>If that's the case, then PLAN B is where you need to be right now. Maybe not for long, but at least for a while.<P>Your wife's reactions were immature. But no surprise. She needs to learn how to control lovebusters too!!! (surprise, surprise). <P>But that's neither here nor there. If you'd consider reconciliation if she'd behave today---I'd suggest that there's still love left (not much). If that's true---and you should sit and think---then the total separation is the way to go.<P>And (as always), talking to Steve Harley wouldn't hurt...

I think some people are incapable of saying, "I'm sorry". <P>When my H announced that he no longer loved me and wanted a divorce, he could have answered yes when I asked if there was someone else. Instead, he said no, and spent the next couple of months telling me that he didn't like my basic personality, and that people's basic personalities don't change, but that I had been hiding my true personality, apparently for many years. <P>After reading your post, I began once again to wonder if maybe my H's current behavior is a reflection of his basic personality. Maybe he has been cheating on me for the last 25 years, and was able to hide it until this woman came along. I don't have any real evidence; I don't even know when he would have had the time - but it seems like over and over again the betrayed finds out that the betrayer has done this before.

K:<P>I don't embrace the demise of my marriage eagerly. Its gonna be costly. BIG TIME. My W is a vengeful person. The type who wants to make people "pay" for whatever hurt she may be feeling. I wish I had understood this sooner. Hell, maybe we should have dated longer. Anyway, my "wish" is that I could have a happy marriage. But its only a wish. I don't really see it as a possibility.<P>Nellie:<P>You hit it right on the head. Exactly what I've been feeling. That, as the saying goes: What is past, is prologue. Thats really why I want out. The stuff is not going to change. Why am I beating my head against the wall?