I agree that it sometime seems that way (i.e. enabling them.) However if we are not nice to them, in their warped logic, they will justify to themselves that what they are doing is right (they probably do this regardless, but if we are mean to them, they'll think "see it is right of me to leave my S because look how I am treated.") As the website says LBing "literally throws the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover. On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand"

Remember, even though you are being nice, remember that "Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover."

We love our spouses however we do not love what they are doing. I have no qualms telling my wife (especially when she asks me how I can be nice to her or love her after what she has done) that I love her but in no way do I agree with or support what she is doing. I have told her many times in the past (she definately knows) that I do not want her to be with OM and that our M can only start to get better if she no longer sees OM.

I don't really bring up M or OM much nowadays because she knows how I feel and we end up just going in circles when we used to talk about it (because she disagees obviously and we just go round and round repeating ourselves.)

Here is the link to the page on this site about Plan A:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

I often re-read these links as time goes on and I gain a new perspective on what Harley means.

Kimmy,

Haven't had the chance to read all of your story here but, I can sure feel your pain.

If I repeat things you've already heard then you can skip on by. However sometimes I need to hear things at different times and it finally sinks in.

Some thoughts of mine:

Discount everything your mother-in-law says as far as moving on. As far as I know she hasn't had any training from the Harley's, so she only understands what the rest of society does.

Your husband is talking from the fog. Things that he says now, he may look back in 6 months and try to figure out what he was doing just like you do now. If you haven't already, go to the "Just found out" forum and find a post that is always there entitled something like "WAT's quickstart guide for BS". Keep it and read it everyday until the thoughts there come to you every time you hear or have to deal with something painful.

Have you read "Divorce Remedy" by Weiner-Davis. If your husbands seperation has nothing to do with an A the principles you follow are much the same as if there was an A. This other book gives some good advice also.

I've heard the comment on here that after a counseling session with Steve Harley one member said that Steve said that if you felt like your Plan A was enabling the A or just making your spouse feel better about the situation, then you were doing a good job and it was working. Not much comfort, but our natural reactions and actions to these kind of things aren't what work for reconciliation. So it stands to reason that we need to do something different if the relationship is going to work out.

A statement that someone gave me and has helped me out quite a bit was this. "Take your power back". That is, take control of your emotions back away from your spouse and give that back to yourself. They have control over you and your emotions right now. Everything they say and do impacts you greatly. Take that back. YOU decide how your day will be, YOU decide how you're going to feel, YOU decide how you will react to things you see, hear, and read. Stop letting their actions dictate how you feel.

Keep praying. Have faith that whether or not this works out, in the future you will be able to look back and realize that you learned a lot, became stronger, and that this probably had to happen to bring about some of those changes.

Take care, Good Luck and God Bless.

Thank you for your comments..as always..any replies really help.

I have read 'Divorce Busters' and did enjoy it. You're right about there being similar theories to Plan A. Both books have good input.

I'm continuing Plan A and today was my first day at my new job. So..that awkward 'first day', which meant I couldn't think of anything else, and so it helped tremendously with this situation as I had no time to think about my H. Except of course when I came home today and missed having him hear about my first day. I thought he might call me even to wish me luck or see how it went..just because he's still my H and might be interested. But..no such luck. Haven't heard from him.

So..tomorrow night is hockey practice and he'll be there. Other than that, I don't plan on e-mailing or phoning him unless it's about the kids. This weekend was so hard because he was moving, but it's like the anticipation was worse than the event. Now 'he's there'..it's easier to handle.

I'm trying to keep strong. I must admit..it was hard waiting all day to come on this website. I've grown used to checking in during the day for interesting stuff that might help me.

Okay...I need input...please!

Last night my H went out for coffee with my closest friend. She's his friend too and had wanted to meet with him for coffee to 'talk' for a while and he finally agreed.

Anyway, to make a long story short...there is no A and he admitted to her that he's most likely in a MLC, but although he said I'm a caring, loving person, and he's sorry he's hurt me..his feelings haven't changed and he's not interested in reconciliation. He said the marriage didn't work and he felt like whenever he expressed concerns I didn't hear him. My friend said that I've accepted responsibility for my actions and hasn't he seen a more positive, calm person in me already? He said he has, but he's not interested. He did admit he'd made some mistakes but he's just not interested. He knows I'm interested and don't want to just 'throw away the marriage' and he appreciates that I am trying hard and am committed, but he just doesn't see it happening. He said he did love me (past tense) and is sad it happened. He feels badly about the kids, but not bad enough to try again.

My friend said that he was teary quite a few times, and at one point a song came on in the restaurant that was played at our wedding and he got quite emotional.

Now..it's almost 3 months and I'm so emotionally tired. I'm still working on Plan A, I've also read 'Divorce Busters' and 'Divorce Remedy' but I wonder if I'm fooling myself.

I had a feeling there was no A, and now I absolutely believe it, but I don't want to leave this site as I know all the feedback I've been getting has helped me cope and I don't want to give up this support. So ..what does anyone think? Because he's being so rational and calm, do you think I'm wasting my time thinking that he may ever be interested? I know Plan A is for me, and it's great, but ultimately we all know that we're doing plan A because we're committed to our marriage, and I'm so confused as to whether or not I can even carry on or if I should just start the legal stuff he wants because otherwise I'll just be disappointed 3 months down the road anyway.

Please someone give some input. I was very depressed today and could really use some feedback. Thanks.

Well..still hoping someone will visit my thread..I'm getting anxious for thoughts from anyone who can input.

Last night I went out for coffee with one of the men my H went out with a few weeks ago. He is very concerned about my H leaving, and just can't figure him out. Anyway, he said that when they were all having drinks the week before, my H seemed quite emotional at times, and my friend thinks I should give him time. This is now two people telling me this recently as a friend who saw my H for coffee a few days ago (see previous post) also thinks I should give him time, although both friend agree that he isn't interested right now.

I don't know what to do. My H isn't interested in any chat of any kind...just races in and out as fast as he can, but is friendly. He expressed no interest to both friends and doesn't show any interest in me either.

The friend I went out last night said he can't figure my H out because he doesn't seem to have any plan..ie..he didn't even get a 'bachelor pad' re his new life..he chose to share a house with a lady, so it's not like he can take women back. And, he said my H obviously has no 'plan', so he doesn't know what's going on. It's like he's moved out from here, left this life, but hasn't really figured out what new life he even wants.

As I've said before in my previous posts..I'm confused now. I'm trying not to think about it and my new job this week is working wonders as I'm so busy and overwhelmed re learning new stuff that I don't have time to think.

My H is apparently concerned about hurting me as well. Has told both of them that 'if and when he starts dating, it will hurt me and he is concerned about that'.

I know I'm not really asking for any specific input here...I'd just like some comments from anyone re my last couple of posts. Thanks alot..

as many people have told me, be patient! You are expecting immediate results from your Plan A. These things take months, even years. What your H is feeling didn't just happen over night but built up over a long time. It will take a long time for it to come back as well.

As for what you H says about not wanting to work it out, don't let that get to you. In fact, expect him to say that.

Focusing on what the WS says (however hurtful) will only deter you from the narrow path of Plan A. Stay the course, focus on yourself and what you can control...you and only you!

If you cannot get your mind off H and his abandonment of you and the family, and you get to the point of not being able to Plan A, you may need to go to Plan B so you don't LB your H and ruin all the hard work of Plan A that you have done. You need to ask yourself if you can make it longer in Plan A without freaking out over everything your H does. (believe me, it is not easy and I wish I practiced what I preach. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Think of it this way. Your H needs to do this for himself. He needs to figure out/straighten out his life. He is breaking a life-long commitment or considering it. He is his own person. You can't control him. While you want him to choose you (of course), he has to want to also.

All you can do is:

1. be a safe place for him to go to if he decides to return/work on the M (be patient!)
2. change/become a better person (including understanding what you can change about yourself, realizing what you could/should have done in the M)
3. try to meet H's needs whenever possible (and not LBing)

Thanks for your comments. I'm trying to be patient, but it's so hard. I feel empty because I long for some kind of affection or caring shown..I'm sure you know what I mean.

This week my new job was so busy that I didn't have much time to think about H, which was good. But..tonight he had the kids and when he dropped them off he said he needed some of his computer files so spent about an hour in the basement. Didn't seem interested in talking or anything so I just stayed upstairs and watched tv.

When he came up he just went to the front door, put his shoes on and said bye. I just don't know how to meet his EN's when he won't even 'be' with me long enough to even chat. It's like he can't get out of here fast enough. He doesn't even like to make eye contact.

I can't imagine waiting years for Plan A or B to make changes. I think I'd feel so empty by then that I'd have to close down. It's 3 months apart and I honestly didn't think he'd be away this long. If he doesn't even want to make eye contact or talk, how on earth can he ever see positive changes, and ever feel that he's missing a good W, kids and home.

I hear you. That is how I feel about my WW. I rarely see her so I can't really show her my changes. Plus she won't really let me meet her needs.

(Not to mention that we'd like our needs met too!)

What we should do in this situation, is do the best the can with what we got. We can't force WS to want to see us more, spend more time when we do see each other, or make them let us meet their EN. So the time we do have with them (however small and/or infrequent), we have to try the best we can. Be considerate, be a friend, be thoughtful, be kind, show interest in our WS, compliment them, (genuinely do whatever little thing we can that shows we are becoming a more positive person... are there little things you could change about how you act/speak towards your H that would be more positive?)

Even though it could take months (over time all the little things/times you do see WH can increase to more and more time together and eventually to when WH will let you meet his needs), take things day by day. One day at a time otherwise thinking about it taking a year or something can be so overwhelming.

I expect my WW to not want to spend time with me/talk with me and if/when she does for it to be very short, few, and far between. So I work with what I'm given (play that hand you are dealt.)

Over time things may change. If my WW does spend more time or does let me meet one of her needs, then it is a pleasant surprise/bonus. Although some might call it a breadcrumb, I consider it a babystep in the right direction.

Keep in mind that if there is no progress in your M with Plan A, that you won't be doing this forever. Eventually you may have to go to Plan B and then even divorce someday. Nothing is really guaranteed. But, believe me, things will get easier and the immense pain will fade.

Plan A is just the best shot we got for our M. If things are really bothering you, set a time limit for yourself say 6 months (without telling WH) and see if things are getting better or not. Re-evaluate your efforts at that point.

Sounds good that you are keeping busy at work. Are there any other things that you can keep your brain/body busy with when you are not at work? Exercise? a hobby? friends?

Hang in there. It is good that you still even get to see your H once in a while. Some BS don't. So work with what you are given (for now) but don't expect much in the short term.

Another thing to consider (advice I was given way back) is that the WS often feels immense guilt about what they've done/are doing. Thinking about and/or seeing the BS (you) makes them feel really bad and guilty. So, since they don't want to feel that way, they try to avoid us/the guilt as much as possible.

So happy to hear from you again.

I do keep busy, however there is very limited time to do that, especially now I work full time. My daughter has karate twice a week and my son has hockey twice a week. So..fitting all that in, plus doing some household stuff, groceries, laundry, etc etc., leaves very little time for me. And, tomorrow my H has the kids and I was looking forward to going to see a movie, but my manager just called and I need to work from 8-5 so any free time for me this week goes out the window.

I try to be positive with my H whenever I can. He has a terrible way of scowling which doesn't make it very pleasant, but I have to deal with it. I think he's closed down already emotionally towards me and add to that the fact that he is very stubborn, and it just doesn't seem hopeful.

I have set a time limit. I've decided Xmas is the end of Plan A. If he doesn't have any interest or feelings by then and no changes have been made then it will be 6 months total away from each other and I don't think I'll want to continue. I know by then I'll be so lonely and empty, but that's the timeline I've set.

Oh well. Gotta go get ready to go to hockey. Spent all morning cleaning our downstairs bathroom and shower, and after hockey have to go get groceries. Gee..exciting. Wonder what my H has been doing all day. Probably nothing as mundane as this.

Anyone who cares to comment on my thread is appreciated.

Well, this afternoon I major love busted. Might as well draw up the divorce papers now. I guess 3 months caught up with me, plus being so exhausted and out of control with the house stuff. Anyway, on our way out of the hockey game this afternoon my H announces to me that our kids want to sleep over there tomorrow night. This was news to me as he had them last night and neither they nor he told me until 4:30 p.m. As I'm tired, and as I know I won't be seeing them much over the next month to to my work schedule, I basically lost it. Not at the arena..I asked him to come back here so we could discuss it.

I told him that he could have at least phoned me this morning or talked to me last night when he dropped the kids off, instead of just springing it on me at the game. I work tomorrow from 7:00 a.m. and so if they sleep over I won't see them until about 5:30 on Monday night, and..they have to get organized now to sleep there. I have asked him over the last month if he could just communicate with me. I will ask him if when it's convenient to discuss the kids schedule with me and he keeps saying yes and then we never talk. And, whenever he's here he just runs out quick.

I told him by things being decided and then just sprung on me and the fact that he still isn't talking to me ever, made me feel like I was the very lowest on his priority list. Unfortunately, my emotions took over then and I broke down. I told him I can't handle all of this on my own..it's hard running the house, mainly looking after the kids, and now working full time. I told the financial pressure and other things like the outside yard work just contributed to it and I was so tired and was trying to be strong but he needed to talk to me.

Of course he got majorly mad at me and told me that he doesn't talk to me because our talks 'don't go well'. I told we haven't talked for so long and I've been nothing but patient and calm the last month so how could he say that.

Anyway, when he left I was a basket case and let's just say any headway I've made over the last month has been destroyed. You might as well just write us off. He told me about wanting a legal separation agreement and I told him it wasn't what I wanted but I'd support him. Of course I was sobbing and just a mess while this was going on.

Also, I'm just tired of the kids always having fun times with Daddy and me being the 'regular' parent at home doing all the disciplining and organizing, etc. And now they want to stay over there already. I can't handle it. I want it to be horrible there, not somewhere they're eager to go.

So..he left here ticked off and I just feel horrible. I'm sure now that I'm back to square one and who knows if I'll ever be able to recover it. Despite the fact that he does refuse to communicate with me, even about the kids is a valid point, it's just that I wish the conversation hadn't turned into the argument it did. And..even then he continued to keep walking away..he just can't sit and ever complete anything with me.

Now he's off downtown as a friend of his got hockey tickets, so he's out for the night.

Have I totally blown it or what. I'm so mad at myself.

Hi Kim

I was reading your post about your farewell presents you recieved. You tried to show them to your H he acted with no interest.

Something came across my mind this reminds me of my treatment I recieved from my H. I use to wonder why he treated me this way.

I came to realize it was guilt. Your H feels guilty, of course he will never tell you this.

I know one thing also whenever, H treats me this way, OW is involved are you sure your H is not having an A or planning one?

I'm pretty confident he's not having an A right now. However, doesn't mean he isn't contemplating having one or is interested in someone.

He has had an EA in the past, but when it ended he spent time convincing me I was the one, and he made a mistake, and didn't go through with it to be a PA, as he said 'he loved his wife'. Fast forward a few months later, and the announcement that he no longer loved me, and was leaving.

I feel that I've had about 8 months of emotional turmoil if you add in the EA emotional stuff and now 3 months of my H having left.

Yes..I'm sure alot of it's guilt. I've known that from the beginning. I've also known that this is a big MLC, and so I honestly wanted to be patient and loving so we may have another chance.
But..when it builds to be too much, like today, I fall apart and hence figuring now I've love busted so much that all the 'work' I've done over the last month has gone down the drain.

I didn't want him to know I was having a hard time handling everything and I didn't want him to know I still want him as much, so I'm so angry with myself this argument today happened. He's apparently going to discuss the legal separation he wants on Monday night, which is the next available time for him. I am going to go along with whatever he says as I'm so tired and I don't want to be disappointed down the road and I feel like it's inevitable. How can you be away from your W and kids for 3 months, and still tell your wife you don't care about her or what she does after she's been kind and loving throughout. It seems hopeless.

A friend (him and his wife were friends of ours ..would do stuff as couples all the time) who I went out for a drink this week to talk with told me that he'd always been envious of our relationship and wished his marriage was like ours. So how did this happen then. How can everyone be shocked, and continue to tell me I was a good wife, and I'm a good person, and my H leave me. I know it's due to alot of his own internal stuff but none the less I feel so hopeless and tired now that I just think I have to stop working on this relationship. I've committed so much time and effort on it the last few months and I think I need a break from working on it.

I'm just confused and lonely and tired. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Dear Kimmy,
When exactly was his EA? It sounds like it was very recent? Are you sure it hasn't progressed? Yes he apologized once- but he could have rekindled things. Also who is this woman he moved in with? What is that all about?

I would be very very suspicious of an A. He would never admit it to your close friends. He will deny it to them, wait a few months and conveniently start to date OW. Have you checked e-mail and cell phone records?

I think it is good to continue Plan A but to me it doesn't mean being a doormat. It does however mean taking the high road. Plan A is about trying to reconnect with your distant spouse, and that is best achieved by being the best person you can be.

However, I think for your own protection you do need a legal separation agreement now that he has moved out. Studies show that women who fail to obtain a sep. agreement can do worse in a divorce. Get an agreement now. Be respectful, tell him that you agree with him it's best that the two of you sit down and spell things out so you can avoid upsetting misunderstandings like the day before. In a way I think your H was testing you. Taking the kids overnight on a whim is a way of seizing power and control and avoiding consequences. In other words, he's moved out, abandoned his wife and kids, but hmmm.. in his mind he can just take the kids for an overnight with no prior notice, just cause he feels like it. I would respectfully tell him that you need to set a visitation agreement with him that both of you will follow. Spell it out down to the nearest detail, of who drives the kids where, and when the kids are returned to the other spouse. Spell out the financial stuff too.

Don't worry the sep agreement won't cause your H to divorce you. Harley recommends getting it when the WS moves out. And believe me, your H will never get one on his own. I'm sure he'll be content to keep you sitting around, grabbing the kids when he feels like it, paying for whatever he feels like. At the very least you should consult a lawyer and get some advice.

This is what happens in divorce and your H needs to face the reality of what he is choosing before it becomes irrevocable.

<small>[ October 06, 2002, 01:16 AM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

espoir: The EA happened in February, with his boss, no less. She had been having trouble in her marriage and my H who was her friend, gave her sympathy and advice, and I remember thinking at the time how lucky I was to have an H who was so understanding. Little did I know how it would turn out. I felt betrayed by the both of them as I knew her and had corresponded and met her a few times and she knew how I felt about my H. I gave my H credit for telling me but it was devastating all the same. He swore nothing more ever happened but he still works with her and they were so friendly (he once told me he got along with her so well because she was so much like me..except...I was already here!) and so who knows what's going on now. I know they still chat, I mean how could they not, and now he's separated I'm sure they could still be having an EA. He wouldn't even know that term and so just being close to her would probably mean just being good friends (or...she's his best friend as he told me in February. I think that killed me the most).

Anyway, the woman he's sharing with is someone he used to work with, who I've only met once. She has a house and has had tenants in the past and the last one moved out recently and my H found out about it. It is 2 bedrooms and an ensuite bathroom in her house that's his, and the rest of the house is shared. I had it out with him about a month ago re this as although she's not physically his type, I don't know this man and so who knew if his preferences had changed. He swore up and down he wouldn't consider bringing our children to stay somewhere if he was having an A with her, and as luck (or NOT) would have it) in my new job that I started this week she works on my floor. Lucky me. I decided to go in first thing when I started, to tell her I didn't want to be uncomfortable as we'd have to see each other and she appreciated that. She assured me it's only a living arrangement and I have to believe both of them, which I do.

Anyway, the thing I don't get is that my H left me, our kids, and our home to move into someone else's home where he's just a tenant. It's not like he got his own bachelor pad or anything. It's like he wants independence, but not to be alone..he wants the comfort of not having to do any 'set up' work, and this was perfect..his rooms were even already furnished. So..he's still never been alone. He went from his parents home, to us on our wedding day, from here to a friend's, and now to this shared home. I don't understand why. Why would you give this up to just move to that.

I will meet with him tomorrow night and discuss money. It's not like I don't want a separation agreement because I'm in denial, it's just going to be so much work to change everything re paperwork, and I know that because I've always done that stuff here, and also I had my own apartments prior to meeting my H. That's my main reason for wanting to delay. I have enough on my plate right now with the kids, the house, the new job and all my emotions around my H leaving that honestly there's no room in my brain to take that on as well.

My H has the kids now and I phoned home (was at work today) to see if there were any messages and the kids were still here as my H needed some computer stuff. But..he'd taken them to a fair this morning. That's another thing that bugs me. When he lived here, he never wanted to do much. In the 3 months he's been gone, he's gone everywhere we love to go (which kills me as I can't be with them) and has thought of all kinds of different things to do as well, whereas he'd never be interested with us.

Bottom line..I still love him, would welcome him back with open arms but am getting tired of the scowling face I get. I know he treats acquaintances and co-workers better than me and that's sad.

I'd love it if someone would read my latest posts.

Tonight my H came over and we sat down and discussed a proper arrangement for the kids. I was cooperative and perfectly friendly, and didn't argue once. I even agreed to him having the kids overnight almost every time he sees them, as that's what he wanted, even though it's a bit of a hassle for me re school stuff.

But..he was happy and it went well. However, inside I was just dying because I just keep thinking every time I'd cooperative, etc it just must make it so much easier for him to live his new life.

The only thing we disagreed on was Halloween. That is my H's favorite occasion of the year and every year he spends hundreds of dollars dressing up and creating a whole scary theme in our front hallway for the kids to see when they come to the door. It's become quite the neighbourhood tradition and parents drive their kids here every year to see what he's done.

This year of course he's not here and so even though our daughter asked if he could still do it and he said he would, I said I didn't feel it was appropriate under the circumstances. I mean, to me, that's like having all the benefits of our family life, without living here. Even though I'm supposed to meet his ENs re Plan A, I have to set boundaries for myself too, right.. and by having him do all this stuff here is just too much for me. I actually get the raw deal here because I'll have to answer the door to all the kids that come wondering 'where the scary man' is. They'll be very disappointed, but I just think it's the right decision. I asked him if he would like to take our kids out trick or treating and he will, and he'll also come early to help them get in their costumes.

Comments on that? My H had a bit of a scowl on, but after we'd discussed it he seemed fine. I did tell him that I'd love him to be here doing Halloween, but of course under different circumstances.

After all the kid stuff/Halloween it was late and he said we'd do the financial separation discussion another night.

So..that's it. Any input from anyone? Thanks!

Anyone out there want to read/comment on my last two posts? Feeling lonely for input. Thanks.

I agree , you can do a good plan A but why should they be intitled to all the benefits when. they are choosing not to be at home.

Hello Kimmy -- You sound a little desperate for some replies. While I am no expert, I suggest that maybe you try and call into the radio show that the Harley's have on Mondays and Wednesdays at 1;00 p.m central standard time. Call 1-888-332-5169 with your question. I think a reasonable question for you would be what boundaries should I be setting out during my plan A. They will ask you how long since d-day, how long good plan A, etc. It cannot replace counseling with the Harleys, but is a good place to ask a specific question.

Now, back to your specific situation. I do think that his latest episode of taking the kids last minute is a control manuever. Probably he doesn't recognize it as such because he doesn't realize what he is or isn't doing in his current state.

That said, for your piece of my mind I think it would be good to have agreements on a) visitation with the kids, b) finances, and c) letting you know in advance about coming over etc. I do not have children (unfortunately for me), but I do think you need to think first about what's best for them. Your WH is in no frame of mind to do that -- he's only thinking what's best for WH.

I think that plan A is a thin and difficult line between showing your positive changes and enabling the A/the bad behavior on the part of your WH. I do believe based upon what you've posted that he is involved in an EA (and possibly now a PA that he's moved out) more than likely with the boss you mentioned in your post. The things he is saying correlate too closely with the things we are all hearing from our WH. Sad, but true.

The only other thing I can tell you is not to expect too much too soon in plan A. You will take two steps forward and one step back. Also, the other thing the Harley's told me this week is that even though a WH might notice positive changes, they will continue to be confused and not able to recommit to the marriage as long as there is contact with the OW. Because I believe that your H is more than likely engaged in an EA or PA with someone at work (incredibly and disgustingly common problem), your WH will exhibit confusion. He will want you to meet some needs and the OW others.

How long you stay in plan A really depends on two key things. First, how you are feeling about him, whether your lovebank is draining fast. Second, is WH still engaged in relationship with boss (EA or PA). I don't know how you find this out. How did you find out the first time? The only other factor for you is what is best for your children.

Plan B is a really scary prospect to me, but I think that's where I will be headed next week. Harleys say it is risky when you do not have kids, but it's just getting more and more painful and frustrating.

Can you afford to have a counseling appointment with one of the Harleys? It might be worth it just to create a good plan for yourself.

Unsureheart: My husband told me about the EA with his boss the first time (see previous post in same thread). I really have no way of finding out if there's still an EA going on, or if it's progressed to a PA as my H has his own cell phone through work, so I don't see cell phone bills or anything like that, and I don't work in the area. I don't really have any way of finding out. However, they still work in the same building and their offices are side by side so I'm sure they're still 'good friends', as much as I hate to think it's still an EA, or more.

My love bank is starting to go down..I must admit. I'm getting tired of being treated with such indifference and also perhaps after 3 months apart I'm getting stronger.

I think I can only go a few more months in Plan A. I'm pretty sure Xmas would be my deadline, although that would be another 3 months and by then I can't imagine my H not being settled in his new life, and also I think by then I'd find it hard to continue to hope for a future for us together.

I'm just going to keep busy and hope the days start to go more quickly. I know I'm getting stronger though, as I'm starting to put weight back on. I lost quite a bit going through this emotionally, so starting to put weight back on is a good sign.

I have no interest in anyone other than my H, and I think part of my 'trying to let go' is the fact that he perhaps spends every day thinking of perhaps dating other people, or looking at other women, and as I don't feel any desire to even look at other men, the thought that he may be in a different 'space' than me in that regard is hard to accept, as that would mean he's 'past' our relationship. I'm not sure if he feels this way..it's just something my own mind is thinking of any having to possibly deal with.

Hey Kimmy,

I am no expert by a long shot but you sound like your heading up. I hear your story and I think your husband should consider the old adage: "Becareful what you wish for...you just might get it." I realized that accepting and giving up were two different things. Once I accepted that I deserved to be happy, that I could not control his actions, and that I loved him but I could not make him do/see anything he didnt want to...a weight was lifted from me. Now this is not to say I gave up on him or that I moved on. I think that is what you are struggling with. I moved on from the pain he inflicted on me. I moved on from the idea that everything I did could be the make it or break it event. But I didnt stop loving him, nor did I give up on a the prospect of a happy marriage. I came to the conculsion however that he may not be worthy of me. I concluded that I was not a she-devil responsible for all his sorrows. And I vowed to myself that I would be treated well as a wife. If he were not the man who would be my husband then it was his grevious loss. I was done. I made his wish come true. He was free. And I began to see I could make it without him. Look at you...you are making it without him. You have been for some time. Even if you think you have been in the worst place ever...it is true you are in the worst place ever but still you are making it. When I got to the place where I knew I deserved better treatment I demanded it for myself. Not in a confrontational way with him. Internally. I made myself get up everyday, shower, do my hair,look good-not to impress him but for me. I went back to work. I read and not just marriage books but things I would enjoy for me. I told myself I didnt deserve this and the only one I can convince of that is me...he will only understand what he wants to understand.

For the record I think the EA is alive and well...it could be onesided...meaning all in his mind but something has driven him to this. And that something is not you. And even if the EA never took place what he is doing is just as bad as an affair. A total betrayl of his marriage vows...doesnt matter if their is an actual OW, some sort of cop-out crap in his mind is clouding his judgement to the point of violation of his martial vows. The vows dont say for better or for worse or whenever I am too much of a coward to face reality.
Also another poster pointed out the guilt factor. This is totally true. That is why he cant face you...talk to you...or act concerned with you because it all reminds him what an idiot he is being. The rational guy being held hostage by the idiot guy is saying look at her, listen to her but the idiot guy just cant. His guilt is a viscious cycle...he cant face you because he feels guilty...so he is more guilty because he should just be a man and face you...but he cant because he feels guilty...and around we go...SO TYPICAL!!

You hang in there. You are not to blame. You can only help yourself. Believe me it becomes so tiring for the WS to constantly convince themselves they are doing the right thing when everyone and their brother knows they're doing the wrong thing.

I have been where you are at. Remind yourself at your darkest moments...the worst possible thing has happened in my marriage and I am making it. I may have dark periods. I may dread the next breath but I still take it. You are making it because you are more than he ever realized. You are kind, compassionate, thoughtful, a good mother, a hard worker and you can make one heck of a cheesecake. These things arent important to the idiot guy. And until rational guy knocks idiot guy over the head...he doesnt deserve you!

(By the way...the cheesecake remark..boo-hoo..it melted because kimmy didnt realize that even though I am a grown man I dont have many brain cells devoted to common sense right now so she should have drawn me a diagram and left explicit instructions on how to store cheesecake...HELLO didnt you take it out of the freezer EINSTIEN?...but then again if she would have done that it would have just proven what a control freak she is...so there is no way she could have won this one either...because hey I am idiot guy.Meanwhile rational guy is taking a kick in the teeth because he is telling idiot guy: you treat he like crap and she remembers your birthday. So idiot guy gets on the guilt merry-go-round with rational guy. While rational guy is getting motion sickness idiot guy cooks up the brillant: "It melted" idea.
See what I mean...he is stretching to find ways of classifying you in his mind...bad kimmy frozen cheesecake, it melted...come on PUH-LEES!!)

I am with ya kimmy

ayslyne