Ayslyne: Oh my gosh. You are so eloquent in the way you describe things. Your comment about how I should have left instructions on how to keep the cheesecake frozen, but then if I had it would have been interpreted as 'control' (his #1 complaint about me) is absolutely amazingly accurate. And, I'm having a very sad day but that made me laugh. Thank you for that! Anyway, since then I have spoken to my H. I had to work today (just got home) and my H dropped our kids to my sister's as they're going with her to my parents for Thanksgiving (forgive me if I've explained this already in a previous post), 400 miles away. I couldn't go as I had to work, but I was glad my kids could. My H agreed to this about two months ago. Anyway, last night when he picked them up to drive them to my sister's, I said 'Have a happy Thanksgiving weekend'. He looked at me and said 'yeah..right'. (the kids weren't around). To make a long story short, he then told me how he couldn't have a good weekend as he'd miss the kids. I then said as he was going to his parents cottage up north at least he'd have a nice dinner with family. He then went into this 'woe is me' story about how he didn't want to go, etc etc., and I said he shouldn't go then, he could make another choice and go somewhere else and he just became miserable and scowling to me and at one point I said how originally I'd even offered to cook him a meal for his birthday (be aware that this was early on in our separation..not during this Plan A) and he looked at me and said 'NO'. I said I didn't mean he was going to have dinner with me, I was just saying how he had different choices. Then (and I wish I hadn't said it now..but I wasn't sure where he was coming from or if the food would meet an EN) I said that the offer still stood. He looked at me and said again 'NO!' and looked at me like I was the scum of the earth. I said to him, 'okay..I'll leave you alone then' and he said 'YES!', and then the kids came and he left.

I just felt broken hearted after that because he honestly looks and talks to me like I'm the worst person on the earth and he absolutely dislikes me. He treats me like crap and I'm fed up.

I was very upset about it all night and this morning I called and left him a message that I didn't appreciate being talked to like that and when he looks and talks to me like that it's hard for me to believe we're married. I said (I was talking calmly) that it was unacceptable and that I had been nothing but caring and kind even through this terrible time and being treated badly and I was not going to be treated like that anymore. I told him that if he wished to take the separation papers to the cottage with him and work on them, that he could give them to me to look at (he's wanted that for a while but I've been delaying due to no time..I've now decided to make time). I also said that it's probably a good time now for us to discuss how he's going to pack up the rest of his stuff that's here (75% of his stuff is still here) and then at least we can have a proper 'physical' separation.

I know this goes against Plan A, but I really need to do this. Obviously right now he's not 'in our marriage' at all and after 3 months of bad treatment, and what I feel is emotional abuse, and all my caring and gestures hoping to meet his EN's, I can't take it any more. I need to let go and so I'm initiating the next move.

If after all that he decides to come back, fine. But right now I feel that it will be months and so we may as well sort out the agreement and the belongings so I can at least feel I'm out of this limbo I'm in. It's silly not to do this part as he'll either be back or he won't. I talked calmly and properly and of course I feel sick thinking about it, but I think I need to do it. I still have an open heart to him and he knows I don't want this separation, but I feel I have to move on somehow and then if he never comes back at least I'm moving on.

I think about him every minute of every day and I just hate this.

Addition to last post: Today is my H's birthdy and I wonder how much fun it is for him to wake up alone (well..his parents are there)at the cottage without me and the kids. How can H's who have left think this type of life is better??

Anyway, I still feel good about my last post, but what I'm wondering is, when my H does come back and we discuss the legal separation stuff and get that type of 'closure' done, do I need to tell him again that it's not what I want and I still love him? Or..as I've said that a few times over the last few months, even during plan A where I've been understanding, etc., is that enough? I read somewhere that alot of H's, especially those going through a MLC forget stuff very easily, so I'm wondering if I need to say it again, or if he'll just keep wondering why I continue to tell him that. Comments from anyone?

I say judge the situation when you are in it. Do what is best for you. He seems to take every kind, human gesture you make towards him as an oppritunity to bring you down with him.

I think if you do address that issue it would be best to couch it as you have to us in this thread. That this separation agreement gives you mixed feelings. On one hand it is surreal because you have been ignored in this whole process (ie no marriage counseling, no trying just done) and therefore living devoid of power over your own life. So the separation is not your choice, marriage was and still is your choice but since your choices are irrelevant to him you have to regain control over your own life. So the one thing that you would not choose is the one thing that will, at this point, give you peace.

You see it is not fathomable to me how cruel the WS can be with insensitive comments, hateful looks, and bad behavior. They wouldnt treat a bum on the street like that but the mother of their children...no problem. But this is so typical.

Whatever you decide to say make it for your peace and empowerment. He is not being rational. You are to blame for all the tragedies in life. It is amazing how the rest of the world didnt figure out that kimmy was the root of all evil a long time ago...hey but idiot guy is smarter than the rest of us you know? I mean how dare you try to say Happy Thanksgiving...are you heartless? (I only say these things because my sardonic sense of humor likes to illustrate how truly unjustified this treatment is)

What is very interesting to me is that the bland comments that you make are recipricated with such malice. This is interesting because he still has that spousely connection to you no matter how he tries to fight it. Example...grocery store clerk says "Happy Thanksgiving"...I am sure they are greeted in a similar manner. But youre his wife you should know better, he has a personal connection with you and he can not escape the fact that no matter how hard he fights it interaction with you still mean something. In his mind now everything is about him and how rough it is for him. Boo-hoo. And the whole I just dont love you anymore is crap...so much so that he has to be mean to you to keep up the act. If he didnot love you, if you did not matter you would be greeted as the grocery store clerk because you would be a nondescript person in a long line of nondescripts...but you matter. And idiot guy hates that. Idiot guy cant get rational guy to shut up so what does he do...take it out on you. This doesnt mean he is loving...no...far from it. He is just figuring it out that his plan of Utopia is as real as the tooth fairy.
I know your heart is open to man he can be. I felt the same way but he is not being the man he can be. It takes time and effort. He may be that man again someday. But it is all on him.
I know I am not a strict Plan A girl but I think everything is relative. I am all for not behaving badly, refraining from LB's etc. But when someone is continually vicious...no one has to stand for that.

OK so dont take this the wrong way but Happy Thanksgiving...lol.

Hang in there Kimmy. Youre doing good...sadness and all...youre still making it!

ayslyne

Ayslyne: I absolulely LOVE the way you write!! Your wit is incredible and you make so much sense! I hope you keep writing as I am enjoying your reponses very much and they're making me feel better. You seem to validate any questions/thoughts I have. Thank you.

I've been thinking about my H all day. Wondering how his Thanksgiving is going on his own. Hoping he's not enjoying it. The decision he made must really be affecting him today ..ie..Thanksgiving with no W OR kids. He'll really have a boo hoo story today.

Anyway, my weekend has turned out to be great. I had no plans (well, except for doing my daughter's early morning (6:30 a.m.) newspaper route for her as she's away and it was actually quite relaxing walking around doing that, despite the torrential rain). And then later this morning a friend called to ask me to go to the movies this afternoon (White Oleander..the new Michelle Pfeiffer one), and we did, and then...some more friends called to invite me to go for Thanksgiving dinner with them, so I'm leaving soon for that! This is so great and I'm feeling good!

I'll try to keep strong and will keep my post updated. Thanks again for posting.

GO KIMMY GO KIMMY

Keep it up!

...he is cracking all over the place but hey not your problem...how amazing that when he was UNDER YOUR CONTROL he wasnt such a boo hoo baby.

Ayslyne: Thanks for your comments. I had a nice dinner with my friends and had an overall great day. I continually give thanks for having such supportive, loving friends.

Today my kids come home and my H will pick them up later today to bring them back here. I wonder if he'll talk to me or not. I will remind him when we discuss the separation detail that it isn't my choice, however it's time for me to let go. Do you think that sounds good? I'm really good at formulating good sentences in my mind to say to him, but then usually the words come out all wrong so I just want to be brief this time.

Also, when I work early shift (I leave here at 6:00 a.m.) my H has been coming here for an hour before he goes to work so our kids don't have to be alone for so long. I have, up until now left coffee for him but I've been told already by a few people that I'm nuts to do that. They include that in my 'caring' stuff that isn't doing me any good and I should stop it. However...the first time he was going to come in the morning I asked him if he'd like me to leave coffee and he said yes and thanks. So..I'm thinking he DID thank me for that, so perhaps I still need to meet his ENs a little bit, especially as he acknowledged that one. I'm so confused..what do you think? I want to continue Plan A, but of course with different boundaries, as I've indicated in my previous posts.

I think your short and to the point comment about the separation is good. I know what you mean about thinking these great converstational sililoquies in your mind then sounding like charlie browns teacher in reality. Short and sweet is great!

The coffee is your choice. Dont feel obligated and if it takes time away from your morning routine dont do it. If you make it for yourself and leave it there. He can nuke it. He has no clue as to what his EN's are right now. Either way you are not being mean you are just getting on with life. I think he should at least treat you with marginal respect before you should mix his maxwell house for him. But that is just me.

Also I dont mean to be constantly critical of him. I know you love him but I am just commenting on the idiotic behavior he is displaying now. This is no reflection on you or your desire to reconcile. But I think you agree the man he has let take over his mind and body is not the man you want in your life.

Plus all of us who have had our lives turned upside down by our spouse's need a place to vent We are people who understand that in daylight the best thing to do is Plan A but in the moonlight of our minds...taking the old boy out to the woodshed wouldnt do him a bit of harm. Consider this your woodshed...

GO KIMMY GO KIMMY!!

ayslyne

Ayslyne: Thanks for your comments. No, the coffee takes no time out of my morning routine as I just make a couple extra cups. I think I will continue to do that as I would do it for anyone who was arriving here at 6:00 a.m., so I'll keep doing it.

Re you being critical of my H..heck, don't worry about that! I have had many moments when I would have loved to throttle him and scream at him what an idiot he's being and get the heck back home!!!

You just say what we all think. And yes, you're right. I don't know what kind of man he's become, but he's not the man I love and was happily married to.

I will keep it short and sweet and tell him I just need to move forward with my life, however it's not something I am choosing.

I'll post with any new updates. Have a great day!

Hi Kimmy, first of all, your husband sounds so much like mine! First of all, when I talked to a laywer about the possibility of legal action, I explained the WH "wanted".... He immediatelly cut me off and told me NOT to discuss this with WH. He said that it was the lawyers job to work out the details. WH and I had arguments prior to me seeing a attorney concerning the legal matters, so I agreed that would be best to let laywers to talking. WH wanted split parenting (3 1/2 days ea) I said no way, he wanted certain assets from house then, I said he would get any additional furniture AFTER legal orders from court. Also, my attorney warned me that whatever we are doing on own, ie WH pays $XX dollars per month and the kids are with him 2x a week, the judge will lean towards makeing that a permanent arrangement. Therefore, I would not allow him to take the kids more than 1 overnight stay a week, and the baby was not allowed to stay overnight at all.

Now, about the living arrangements, my husband moved in with a woman who had an "apartment" in the house. It turns out that yes there was an apartment upstairs, however he slept in the guest room. He did not have feeling for her in a romantic way, just liked the attention. But this woman felt she could smooze him into a relationship with him and MY KIDS. It got really weird, she did not have any children and even my husband got freaked out by how she was trying to take over the kids.

He also was having an A while he was living on farm with this woman. I had my suspicions, but he denied it totally. He did not confess to A until July 02, when he said he wanted to make our marriage work. It is hard to tell when A is actually going on, but just look for the pit in your stomach, it is usually right.

WH would drop kids off at "our" house and just "hand out". I finally told him I was not comfortable with being there when we were not together as husband and wife. He was eating "cake" being dad at our house until kids went to bed, then being the single stud from 9pm until???? Be carefule to set boundries so you are plan Aing it but not enabling him to have his cake and eat it too.

It is easier said then done, but I found that FWH?W/h (in recovery now) responded whenever I put my foot down and did not let him walk on me. Then he would come out of the fog a little and appreciate me more. Hope this helps a little.

<small>[ October 14, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: copswifebetrayed ]</small>

copswifebetrayed: Thanks for your comments. When you say you are in recovery, do you mean your H came back, or you have just moved on? If he came back, how long was he gone?

Re the A. I have had a feeling in the pit of my stomach for the whole 3 months he's been gone, but I change my mind every day.

I just keep praying that somewhere deep down in his soul, some awakening happens. If not that he return to me, just that he acknowledge I was not the total cause of his unhappiness...it's within himself.

Look forward to hearing from you again...

Well, he left 1 year ago this weekend to move to the farm. He was there until December just before Christmas. He was home but not normal, some good days, but mostly distant. He could be so cruel, "want to go to dinner?? Oh sorry can't make it I have to work late" type stuff. Anyways, looking back he was in the Fog big time. It seems like no matter how nice I was or what we did, he was "addicted" to the OW. I only know this now because putting puzzle pieces together after the fact.

On July 1, he came home and announced that he had an apartment. He took the kids and stayed the night, the next morning he called and begged to let him come back,.."he saw what a huge mistake he is making" etc. Well, I would not let him come back until I was sure HE was sure. Two weeks later he confessed to his 1 year long affair with a co-worker (who I know). Anyways, I was angry to say the least (burned his clothes in the driveway) and after all the effort I put into improving myself (plan Aing before I knew what Plan A was) and the marriage, he was STILL cheating.

So it has been a long 3 months. He still has the apartment, but is trying to get out of the lease. After he told me about the A, I told him to just stay at the apt, I still wanted to work on marriage, but at a distance. He did come to the house and ask "what should I do tonight?" and I told him to "go home to his apt" It hurt me so deeply to send him away, and the fact that our 2 year son way crying for daddy, but WH has to know that you cannot just "float" between fantasy and reality. You have to be responsible for your actions. I joke about putting him in "time out" everytime he crossed one of my boundries.

He is home now and we should be able to get stuff out the apt soon. I hate the Apt and what it represents. He also has made comments about OW and resenting her because of the financial mess he is in now because of apt etc. I am glad he is starting to see OW for what she was. It is still hard, trying to overcome anger and put thoughts of the A out of my mind. I LB still, but try to be calm for the most part and simply explain how this or that reminds me of the pain or how sometimes I just get discourage.

I guess what I am trying to say is that we have good days and bad days still, but now more good than bad. Also, he does pray with me now in the morining. I believe prayer between husband and wife are very important. When we were seperated last winter, I would tell him I was praying for him. He would get mad sometimes, but that was just the guilt. I told him how I felt now matter how he felt about it. I explained that I loved him, but not his actions, and that I would put our marriage in Gods hand and let him handle it. I think he thought I was loopy, but I did not care so long as I was being honest and positive.

copswifebetrayed: Thanks for your story..wow..good luck to you both. It's obviously been a long road.

I also believe prayer is important, and alot of my friends are praying for me (and my H)as well, and it's nice to have that comfort.

I do not want to close the door to my H, I just need to start letting go. I would love it if he would announce today that he's realized he's made a huge mistake but I know that if that ever happens, it's not going to be anytime soon.

My fear of losing him forever kept me afraid for a long time, and I'm only now realizing that I've already lost my H in a way, because he isn't who he was when he was here. And, despite my anguish and agony of the thought our marriage could be over, I have to accept that I can't make him come back to me.

I am also worried about all the work involved in doing the legal separation stuff, and the finality of that, as our bank accounts, bills, etc will change, and even though it doesn't mean the next step is divorce, I feel it's one step closer.

I get mad at him (when I'm alone) because he never told me this was in the plan, and how dare he!

I keep praying he'll realize that the grass isn't greener, but right now he doesn't think that way.

Some of my friends tell me to move on as there's probably some wonderful man out there who would love to adore me if given the chance. But..I still want my H. I worked hard at my marriage and thought I was making him feel loved and special. Obviously I wasn't doing enough and I know that's not all my fault. However, I still don't want anyone else at this point. I would just love the opportunity to be 'in recovery'.

My friends have told me Im crazy for putting up with all of this. But I still feel inside that it can/will work. The most important thing is to behave "correctly", I have to focus on that because I have a tendency to "blow up", like burning his clothes. My husband told me that he always knew his heart was with me and that no one could ever fill my shoes. You H may not act like he thinks you are all that, but if he really wanted a "d" he would have filed himself. They just get caught up in the Fog and start to believe their own lies.

You will know in your heart if you need to quit working on this. However, even in recovery there are set back ( a lot of them at first!!). Be patient and see how much you can grow as a person. I tell my H all the time that I do not reget what happened because I feel that I have become such a better person. He even told me the other day that he wished he were me because I did everything "right". Now I don't think I did, but I do think I have become a much stronger person and my marriage will be better than ever. Besides, there could be some other guy out there, but I would rather wait for my H to become a better person (completely out of the fog and rid of the guilt).

Wow..what a wonderful sentiment..that you would rather wait for your H to be a better person. How true.

I hope it works out for you, and I hope it works out for me. I was married for the first time very young, for a very unhappy 18 months. We should never have married in the first place. So..when I married again, I felt so blessed and felt for the first time in my life I was truly happy (had a very unhappy childhood). I vowed to make my marriage a happy one, as well as providing any children we had with a happy home. So..after being with my H 15 years, married 14, it was such a shock for me that he left. The only fear I had had up to then was that he would ever be in a car accident. I never dreamed he would one day leave me.

So..I desperately would like the opportunity to work through this for me, my H, and our two children who adore him (as my daughter said a few weeks ago "Mommy..I liked it the way it was before") Just a second chance..that's all.

I'll let go, but deep in my heart he's the one I want and we had a good life together, of which I was looking forward to many more years of. I also hope he will realize what's happening and want to work it out, and be better for it, as will I.

Well, have faith and be patient. One day I am excited and full of hope all will work out and the next day I feel like there is no hope.

Just remember to trust that "feeling" in your stomach. It will let you know to keep trying or when enough is enough. I do find that my husband shows such admiration for my strenght to continue to believe in our marriage when he was doing so much to destroy it. I think later they appreciate the unconditional love and strenght we show, but that is only after they get "well" and their heads clear up!!

<small>[ October 14, 2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: copswifebetrayed ]</small>

Well..tonight my H was to pick up our kids from my sisters. I didn't know if he'd call me or not to give me the option to go with him. Anyway, he did call and I said I'd go along. I was totally expecting either a)him to be scowling and unfriendly like he was on Friday, or b)discussing my message and the separation agreement. Well, to my surprise, he initiated conversation and it was just regular 'chit chat'. I responded back and we talked for most of the ride to my sister's. I was quite surprised but it was very nice. Of course on the way home our kids talked the whole way and then my H just dropped us and said bye.

So..either he realized he had been talking to me like a piece of crap and felt bad, OR..he liked my message about doing the legal stuff and me moving on and now feels happy that 'she's finally accepted it'. Either way it was much more pleasant.

Interesting though.

I am glad to hear you had a positive night. Focus on the positive times and ignore the negative. I bet he is a little worried that you are "ok" with the legal stuff. If you are strong he will wonder why and realize that you will not wait forever.

It is funny how they act like they don't want us, but tent to panic when they think they are losing us!! Go figure!

Yes. I had a pretty good weekend overall, considering I was dreading being all alone for most of it.

My H just picked up our kids for hockey. I worked from 5:45 a.m. to 5:10 p.m. today, so I'm just too tired to go with them. I'm just going to make lunches and then when the kids get dropped off at 9:30 go to bed the same time they do (gee..what an exciting life...) He hasn't mentioned anything at all about my message re doing the legal stuff so I don't know if I should remind him, or just let it go. I don't want to seem like I'm pushing for separation, but I also don't want to continue in limbo for much longer, but as I don't want the separation to begin with, I'm confused. Arrghhh.

However, he was pleasant when he picked up the kids even though he was only her for a minute.

I wish I could just tell him 'okay..it's time to come home now.' It's almost like you get to the point where you're afraid to talk to your own H because you're afraid of 'saying the wrong thing' or 'being too pushy'. It's awful being in this situation.

I really want him to come home. I had an okay day at work, but tonight I'm feeling very sad. I guess it's cause I'm so tired.

It feels like you are doing the wrong thing initiating 'separation and moving on' talk while in plan A. Initiating this kind of talk for manipulation, when what you really want is for him to come home, is disaster. I would stop this immediately and tell him you want him back and you want him to come home to the family - then implement a determined and perfect plan A for 6 months. In the course of a lifetime and in view of a long marriage with children, you owe yourself and the children to do this for a mere 6 months. You have to stop letting your feelings make you say or do things that are all over the place. You need to set up a plan and to work towards it; then stick to it.

If you want to learn how to do a good plan A please read going-crazy's threads in GQII and aanst's thread in PlanA/B forums. You are in a much better situation than both of them were, and one of them is already on the way to recovery. Then please read the main texts recommended here very carefully and begin a perfect plan A. Have you read the MB principles in the Concepts section? This is a good start - then His Needs Her Needs and Surviving an Affair.

You need to keep making the coffee and doing lots more loving things for him. Please distance your mind and emotions from the people who are saying negative things and influencing you negatively as soon as possible.

<small>[ October 15, 2002, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: relate ]</small>

Relate: Thanks for your comments. I am still making coffee, as I decided I would do that for anyone who came as early as 6:00 a.m.

My H has been the one pushing for legal separation and I've been stalling. I've decided now that it isn't doing me any good and I should go ahead with it for financial stuff/kid stuff. My H knows absolutely that this isn't what I want and he has no interest in coming home. He's been gone 3 months now and for the last couple of months have been doing Plan A but need to start separating myself emotionally I feel as I couldn't handle the negative way he would constantly talk to me.

I'm only letting go..not moving on. I would welcome him back today if that's what he wanted..but he doesn't. I will continue to do Plan A in that I will be kind and considerate, and if I can meet his ENs at all I will, although he hasn't lived here for 3 months. But..I've decided I won't take his negative verbal abuse any longer. I don't deserve that..no one would. And, I will tell him again when he does bring paperwork here that I do not wish this to happen

I'm trying my best, but I do know that I'm not perfect in this Plan A. But..I don't know if I can go on as long as six months. And, he had an EA in February which may still be going on (with his boss..she works in office beside him still) so I've had many months of emotional anguish so my mind is feeling like it can only take so much ...

Thanks for your comments!