My H had an affair for 3 weeks in another country, with someone who was unbelievably cruel to me. Whether she wanted him or not she went after me with a vengence, getting him to see the worst, do the worst, believe the worst. Now he's always been very suggestible. But we have been together for 30 great years and he's never done anything like this. He does not understand how he ever fell for her except she was so powerful and determined. There's more involved. We have bought land and are moving to a 3rd world country where a small clique of Americans seem to have a fiefdom going and they don't want us there. Greed and racism is a mean combination. And we didn't have either. So if there is some ulterior motive on her part, it's because she is a member of this tiny group of bigots. Anyway. He left her and her little world and I can't feel too jealous when I hear about her kicking people, smelling etc.(yuck!). The problem is that he said so many things that he can't take back. He doesn't know how to explain it to me in a way that doesn't blame me. He even read all this site and he thinks he is now supposed to tell me all the bad things about me. And he had told me that there wasn't anything I had done to cause this. I mean, we are like rabbits. I'm pretty good at meeting those needs! He just can't seem to reach out to me with words that don't hurt me. He loves me, has no problem saying he does and wants us to be together, to remarry, etc. But he cannot seem to give me back my peace of mind. And I want to move to this country; it's still our "love" home, even tho' this would seem to ruin it. I'm not that needy, but what I need is an explanation. And all I get is, "I thought she was so great; she seemed to. . ." And "it was mind control." "I don't know why I went along with it." It's just not enough to say "I love you." He loved me before he left. (He's not hiding anything now, like email or calling her and she doesn't care about him either since she wanted his money and he wants it back, but has even given up on trying. there's been no contact since he left in November and there was only maybe 2 weeks when they were together. It's hardly a dream life--a cold water flat, with a smelly, violent woman, compared to me in silk stockings. Yet I can't seem to compete with whatever she did to him and to his perceptions.) Is he supposed to be saying, the Marriage Builders says I'm so be honest, let's see, what needs weren't you meeting that made me do this to you? Help.
whatawomen

Unmet EN's do not cause affairs, they cause lousy marriages. Reading SAA, it can be easy to conclude that unmet needs are the reason for affairs. Not so. Affairs are entirely the responsibility of those involved, and the reasons vary. If you read Harley thoroughly and carefully, he does not say unmet EN's cause affairs, either, though it is a so common a misconception among his readers that I would say he should do some re-writing of his material.

Our MC worked w/ Bill Harley for 8 years, and one of his biggest dis-agreements w/ Bill was on this very issue, because according to him, in about 80% of men's affairs unmet EN's had very little to do with it. Yes, there were usually unmet EN's in their marriages, because no marriage is perfect. But, having the wife find out about and meet his most important EN's did not stop the affairs from re-kindling or stop the husband from having another. Harley is aware of this, which is why his plan for recovery is a lot more complicated than: 1.) Take the EN questionaire. 2.) Meet your husbands EN's. Our MC said that in his opinion, for that 80%, if the wife had been meeting the husband's top 5 EN's PERFECTLY, the husband still would have had the affair. If you want to learn more, read "The State of Affairs", by Todd Mulliken.

<small>[ October 02, 2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39:
<strong>Unmet EN's do not cause affairs, they cause lousy marriages. Reading SAA, it can be easy to conclude that unmet needs are the reason for affairs. Not so. Affairs are entirely the responsibility of those involved, and the reasons vary. If you read Harley thoroughly and carefully, he does not say unmet EN's cause affairs, either, though it is a so common a misconception among his readers that I would say he should do some re-writing of his material.

Our MC worked w/ Bill Harley for 8 years, and one of his biggest dis-agreements w/ Bill was on this very issue, because according to him, in about 80% of men's affairs unmet EN's had very little to do with it. Yes, there were usually unmet EN's in their marriages, because no marriage is perfect. But, having the wife find out about and meet his most important EN's did not stop the affairs from re-kindling or stop the husband from having another. Harley is aware of this, which is why his plan for recovery is a lot more complicated than: 1.) Take the EN questionaire. 2.) Meet your husbands EN's. Our MC said that in his opinion, for that 80%, if the wife had been meeting the husband's top 5 EN's PERFECTLY, and the husband still would have had the affair. If you want to learn more, read "The State of Affairs", by Todd Mulliken.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Thanks so much for writing. This has become a real problem and sticking point--the EN after the A. Seems like a better idea would be to try to get that love stuff back after you just about kill someone with an A. Why would it help to go through what I did wrong--at this point? Isn't there ever going to be a time for true remorse? It's unfortunate that my H or Dr. H. doesn't see that after the A the only thing this person wants is relief. Particularly if the H is almost brain washed into believing the worst and saying the worst to me. All the things that have been said, done, doesn't that count for his time of complaints? I don't want to talk now about how he doesn't fulfill me either. I just want some more clarity on when the A gets to start hurting less because the person who did it, did it. Like you said. Dr. H. makes my H think it's now my fault and he should think up a list of reasons why he did it--i.e. how I might now have met his needs. Relief, comfort, love, respect, empathy, those are much better ideas for the person who's half dead from being half killed.
I can understand your point. Talk to me more. Tell me more about that book when you get a chance. By the way, we have had the worst marriage counselors in the world and I am never going to go near one again, unless we do something like a phone counselor thing with Dr. H.
Thanks again.

T

<small>[ March 21, 2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: broken heart and arm ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Seems like a better idea would be to try to get that love stuff back after you just about kill someone with an A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course. You can suggest it to him. You can let him know about the MB web site and books, where he can learn how. You can ask him to take the ENQ. But, you can't MAKE him do anything. If he is in love with you he is more likely to be agreeable to doing those kinds of things. If he sees positive changes in your relationship because of the things you learn here, he is more likely to be agreeable to doing those kinds of things.

If you wait for him to fix things, he may wonder why he should bother. Is it fair? No. Is it reality? Yes. The MB approach to affair recovery is to try to draw your spouse into doing the things they need to do to make the relationship work. This can be really hard to stomach for anyone, especially someone who has been doing a pretty darn good job to begin with.

I highly recommend taking the Emotional Needs Questionaire, found in the "Questionaires" section on this site. It was an eye-opener for me. I had no idea that 2 of my wife's top 3 EN's were even in her top 5. I had been spending a lot of time on the fulfilling EN's that were really not all that important to her.

Do I think that me not filling those EN's caused her A? No. Did it contribute to it? Not really, IMO (MB heresy!!!). It contributed greatly to her dis-satisfaction with our marriage. I was even more dis-satisfied than she, especially from the unmet EN standpoint, and I did not have an A.

So, my perspective is that unmet EN's do not cause A's, and lousy marriages do not cause A's. However, I do believe that great marriages, and changes to one's lifestyle, as defined by Harley, can prevent A's. I liken this to getting a cold. A weak immune system does not cause a cold. It does not contribute to a cold. Colds are caused by germs. HOWEVER, a strong immune system can prevent a cold, even when germs are present. Staying away from germs can also prevent colds.

Also, I want to have a great marriage. For me. I have started working on that, whether or not my wife wants to ride along or not. I hope and pray she does, and so far, she has. If not (God forbid!!), I will already be practicing for wife #2. Plus, what I have learned here about my own problems in relationships has already benefitted my relationships with my kids, too.

I recommend working through "Torn Asunder" from cover to cover w/ your spouse. It is very similar to the Harley approach, but I think does a better job at working through the BS's pain.

Lastly, what I've said about asking the WS to do things, but not forcing them is succintly captured in the adage "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." As Gary Smalley points out: "No, but you can salt their oats!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> MB Plan A is salting their oats.

Thanks to everyone! You've no idea how it helps. Even if everyone is wrong and I am completely right and THAT IS JUST A JOKE. (Not a ha ha joke). No, I agree with all you guys are saying. I just don't know if they are as bad in those particular ways you've described. Perhaps? things are a lot better than I've indicated? Maybe because we met at a time when life was full of new life styles, changing roles between men and women and we were in college and not hung up on so many of the male-female stereotypes of what a wife or a husband is supposed to do. It was the late late 60s. We've been together since 1970! Married almost 30 years.

I know I am hurt as he__, particularly because he is the most trustworthy, loyal man I've ever met and he loved me and I just didnt give him much reason to turn away. Now, since he did, I've been doing backwards flips to keep him. He is so unbelievably worth it. He will do the MB or other things; he wanted to go to counselors, which we did. (She told me that the affair was nothing to worry about--he was just depressed because he wasn't working [but he hadn't even been applying for a job!!]. Every week, she had a new excuse for the reason he did what he did and was still acting terribly. Our first MC tried to get me to leave my H for him; our second was just in trying. So he went to her about job stress and she decided to, on her own, call and tell me "I'm working you [two] toward divorce--take it or leave it." I happened to be in the MFS Program at the time and I know what they know. And it's mainly how to get people to adjust to divorce. So this time, I explained that we did not want a divorce. We were trying to get me over a hurtful but potentially minor fling. She took the opposite tack from the first MFC and said, he was in this new country, didn't feel good and he has this mental problem for which he needs his meds. Not having his meds, given his personality type, makes affairs almost inevitable. I can't imagine saying something so stupid. He's had this "problem" his whole life without meds or affairs.

I think he would be thrilled to have something to follow. He does not want to hurt me. But his understanding of what he's supposed to do to mend us is so different from I think MB is all about. It's getting so I'm afraid for him to talk to anybody or follow any advice, as his interpretations are so hurtful and yet he does not mean to hurt me. Am I making myself at all clear? I am trying not to say too much about him to invade his privacy. That's why I am being vague. the other reason is that I'm being vague.

Please everyone, keep writing. and, could you give us suggestions as to what might heal rather than create more conflict--for the moment at least. He's ready to do all the work on any of these programs, but which has the least chance of being misunderstood? BTW, I do try to keep the resentment to a minimum, mainly it's just hurt and fear. I think he has told me what to do to prevent it (EN), but isn't there a list of compensations and forgiveness? What do you guys think of that? I started to read it last night. Even tho' I'm a psychologist I never went into MFC and never had any experience in A.
thanks again to all