My "snooping" is a major LB for H. He says it makes him feel like a child. If I'm following Plan A, I shouldn't snoop then, right? The problem is that almost every time I've snooped in the past, I've found out that he was lying to me. What should I do? Not snoop and be railroaded or go ahead and snoop and know the truth but make H mad when he finds out?!?

dumplin,

You are correct by saying you are in plan A and not in recovery. To be in recovery, A has to end properly and WH is willing 100% to work on M. Until then you have to be in plan A. Now about snooping, it is needed. Why ? BS needs to know the whole story to save M. Typical WS's reactions ... "you are treating me like a child" !!!. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You have to learn how to talk to the fog ... here what you have to say next time ... "Then stop behaving like one and start telling the truth and act honestly" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . One warning ... never use the snooping result to "fry" or to "confront" WH, the result is only for you to monitor how good your plan A is.

-RH-

Redhat,

Could you maybe explain a little more please? If I snoop and find something, do I keep the information to myself? Or "confront" H with it? When I have snooped in the past, it has been for my own protection and sanity. It has not been to "catch" H like he thinks. I wish I could snoop and not find anything - have had that happen but it's been rare. I don't mean to sound stupid, but I'm a little confused. If Plan A is to focus on myself, then why should I be snooping? I know that's one thing that H will throw up - I need to work on myself and let him work on himself and his "situation" (OC).

The reason I'm asking so many questions is I haven't been snooping but now I can't sleep without having awful dreams about H and (X?)OW. H says there has been no contact and he'll tell me if there is. I honestly don't know if I believe him or if I should. I've also told H that I won't snoop anymore and if I do I'll be breaking my word.

Thanks for the help!

dumplin,

You have to keep the information to yourself first then ask yourself ... what good does it do if I confront H with it ?. 99.9% the answer is do nothing (not to confront). The main purpose of snooping is to protect yourself so you have more fact to make a decision. The secondary objective is to see how good your plan A works or you are just creating a cake eater monster. When you start reducing LB'ed to none and start fillin some ENs that you might have neglected, there has to be an impact to WH !. If there is none then you have to review your plan A and reajust or you know you have a cake eater monster on your hand. When WS is not truthfull you have no choice but to snoop !!!.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>The reason I'm asking so many questions is I haven't been snooping but now I can't sleep without having awful dreams about H and (X?)OW. H says there has been no contact and he'll tell me if there is. I honestly don't know if I believe him or if I should. I've also told H that I won't snoop anymore and if I do I'll be breaking my word.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you read "The language of love ?". Read that book and create a word picture to express what you typed above to WH. You could tag along when H is talking about R then you bring up yours. Learn to bring it up w/o LB'ed ... make it it is about you and let him find the solution. Rebuilding trust ... trust is not given it is earned. Sorry to say this but WH's word don't mean a [censored] (how many times WH does this ?), his action should and if you feel this way ... there is something wrong and most likely there is contact. IMVHO, try too snoop and try to be smarter so you won't get caught. When you find out about the contact, don't use the info to confront WH right away but told WH that "you strongly feel that ... like last time gain, dejavue." Let WH makes promise of ammends if he has contact again ... Take back that info. , regroup and plan up. If you think you will gain something if you confront WH then do it.

-RH-

Boy I missed this two, major fog ...

" I need to work on myself and let him work on himself and his "situation" (OC)."
Then both of you should not M. M is a union of two people !, there is nothing stronger than supporting each other through a tough time as a loving and understanding couple. Check on Q&A section what to do with OC.

"H is supposedly "leading OW on" so she won't take him to court"
Part of defog is facing reality and take the consequences ... H should behave w/ honor and put you first above $$$. You see, this is why you need to snoop, all you know WH is "leading you on" before WH could Dv you.

Have you considering MB's conseling for you or for both of you ?.

-rh-

Thanks redhat! I've considered counseling with MB, but I just plain can't afford it. I gotta go, H is home.

Dumplin

I have had exactly the same problems recently, our stories look the same. I am new to this and on plan A. A couple of days ago WS disappeared for the afternoon (off work) without saying a word to me and immediately after talking to me. She turned up 5 hours later at the end of the day and said she had been shopping. She only bought one thing (and that was at lunchtime). She wouldn't return phone calls after work until she was back. She couldn't give a good reason for not answering the phone (after a casual question from me).

I am quite sure that she went to his place because everything fits together that way. I felt that the evidence was so compelling that I confronted her with it. I think that the approach I used was very important. I looked at her phone records and she had cleared them. I asked her why and she couldn't give a real answer. With all this in mind (and the phone records) I then asked her if she went to his place, she said no (surprise, surprise). This is walking a very fine line - bordering on a LB. The A is an enormous LB from her to me anyway and is worth trying strain it.

While a little confrontational, I left the probing at that. Note that there was very little snooping here - just paying attention to the details of what information I had (a little bit of common sense too). I knew the answers and I think she new it too. I just let her save face without openly accusing her of lying, etc. I then used the opportunity to tell her how much the A hurts me and how much more it hurts if she still sees OM.

This way she knows that I am aware, without openly snooping and without starting any arguements. I coulnd't just standby and watch it happen (this wasn't the first time I had good evidence). I wanted to put some strain on the A but not obviously. Later that day she cried a lot for no apparent reason so she is having guilty feelings. It therefore appears to be straining the A.

I agree with Redhat in that most times direct confrontation will not achieve anything. Previously if she caught me snooping too much she tells me I 'treat her like a child' and she 'needs more space'.

I have learned the hard way that the A will continue anyway and they will always find a way to be together. I think that on plan A the more WS has to lie about it the more strain it puts on the A because deep down nobody likes lying. In doing so I generally don't accuse her of ongoing A, but point out inconsistencies in her stories/actions. I don't accuse her of lying either - I just make it so she has to lie and let her lie.

In this way I am not pressuring her and I am not using any LB. She can't really hold anything against me so I think it works in my favour. This is my story and I am new to all this and time will tell how sucessful my approach was.

Dumplin,

I am in your shoes today. I have decided to snoop. ( haven't for months) I hope to heck that i don't get caught. BIG LB, he would probably move out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notgoingtodothis:
<strong>Dumplin,

I am in your shoes today. I have decided to snoop. ( haven't for months) I hope to heck that i don't get caught. BIG LB, he would probably move out.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He probably would move out sooner or later ... don't let this deters you. Don't promise you won't in the future either unless he agreed to open up all email/voice mail/accountable for $ & time. Again don't confront H right away, keep it under wrap until you are sure that bring it up will do good for both of you. Good luck -rh-

Okay, I didn't even have to snoop. Went looking in H's truck for some Hall's that he said were in there and found a condom in the door of his truck!! So that got me started. I went through his pants and found a letter to OW saying that he didn't understand what was going on. He couldn't stand living in limbo, did her and her ex get back together, blah, blah he loves her always have and always will. I don't know if this is something he did and never mailed or if it's a copy of what he sent her.

On the flip side, H has been acting better around here. He's helping out around the house and seems to be putting forth effort to show me affection and be nicer towards me.

Now I'm completely lost and confused. Of course if I confront him about the letter, he'll say it was done to set me up to see if I was snooping so I don't plan on saying anything to him about it. I do plan on showing him the condom I found because I was doing nothing wrong when I found it. Any suggestions on how to go about this conversation. Right now I'm so mad that I feel like throwing it at him and telling him to shove off (or telling him to keep it because he sure ain't getting any from me without using one). I know none of these responses will help so what's everyone's advice?

Hi!

I hate to be the only to disagree with ya'll, but I don't think you should snoop.

I used to snoop ALL the time. Then I had a counseling session with Steve H. and these were some of the questions he asked me.

-After catching the WS initially, how does it help?

-Do you feel better afterwards? Not usually.

-If you find nothing, are you satified that nothing is going on? Nope, just think they are hiding it better.

-So why do it????

He told me to assume the A was still going on until my WH ACTIONS told me differently. He also told me how addictive it is, and he is ABSOLUTELY right!!! I found myself doing it without even realizing it! I was driving my D to school in my WH truck, and on the way home, I found myself looking thru his console. I actually said, "Stop it!" out loud.

It was hard for me to stop snooping. And honestly, I still want to a lot of the time, but I don't. And you know what, since I stopped, I have felt soooooo much stronger than I used to.

Just some food for thought!

HUGS!!!
PQ

Good thing that you vent here first. Read the Language of love and create a word picture that you H could understand. You know what work. When you are ready ... sit H down and have a talk. W/ no LB ... you could bring the condom up and even the letter ... let H explained it. When I say "do not confront" I don't mean "you never ask". The different is the goal. "Confront" means you use the evidence to fry H or to make him admitting he is guilty. That is not good. You bring the evidence to H attention and ask ... with the intention of fixing your M. Tell H how much this hurt you ! and still beleive if H is willing to work on M and get conseling you still could have a better marriage than this.

Read the book and write down how you are going to use "talk" to H. Repost here back.

-RH-

Hi all! Here's how I handled the condom situation. H woke up (had condom in my back pocket) and asked me if I hated him. I guess he could tell I was upset. I told him no I didn't hate him but I was a little irritated. I explained that I went looking for the cough drops in his truck and instead "found this" and handed him the condom. He looked at it like he didn't know what it was and I just walked off (so not to start a fight). He said, "Here you can have it." I told him I didn't want it and he said he didn't either so I took it and threw it in the trash. He didn't offer any explanation and I didn't ask.

Not twenty minutes later, H asked for SF. I laughed and asked him if I should get the condom out of the trash. He said, "I don't know; do I need it?" I just looked at him and said, "Well I don't know if you need it or not." I then added, "What about our two kids that are wide awake in the next room?" H then said that I was just looking for excuses not to give him any. I just laughed and walked off. We finally did it later on.

I haven't mentioned the letter (or the calling card) and don't intend to. I'm in agreement with PQ on this. All it does is cause confusion and frustration which is building resentment in me towards H. Of course with my H, I'll never know if the letter was planted or what. He's actually told me before that the phone company messed up when I asked him about differences in what he said and what the phone bill said and acted completely confused.

Here's my answers to SH's questions for PQ:

-After catching the WS initially, how does it help?

Doesn't help anything because he'll deny even when the evidence is staring him in the face.

-Do you feel better afterwards?

Nope, just more confused and frustrated.

-If you find nothing, are you satified that nothing is going on?

Haven't had this opportunity more than once or twice so I don't know.

-So why do it????

EXACTLY!!!!!!

Thanks for the help; I look forward to hearing your responses.

dumplin,

In the Matrix, you choose the blue pill. IMVHO. You should get tested for STD and you should use the condom.

Good luck.

-RH-

Hey Dumplin!

I just wanted to tell you way to go!!! You are making remarkable improvement!!! I think you handled that situation pretty well. One question: Did you use the condom? I hope so!

I also wanted you to know that I have another appointment with Steve H. on Friday. I am going to ask him if the snooping thing was just for me, because upon relfection, it might not apply to every situation. I could have misunderstood him on that, but I will let you know. And tell you any other good ideas he tells me about!!!

I am glad that you answered those questions. They sounded a lot like mine, so I am guessing that you probably will feel better if you stop.

Good Luck to you and keep us posted!

HUGS!!!
PQ

RH, I don't get the comment about the Matrix and the blue pill.

No I did not use the condom. Haven't used them with H since we were dating (hated them then too) and yes I go every 6 months to get tested. And not to be too disgusting but the condom that I found I don't know anyone that would use that thing - wasn't just a normal condom we'll put it that way.

PQ, I don't know how well I'm doing but thanks anyway. I just can't stand it anymore. I can't stand the wondering, but I can't stand knowing either. I liked your comment about assuming the A is ongoing until H's actions show different. Also, the one about snooping being addictive - I think I suffer from that addiction as well as you. I have literally had to go find something to keep myself busy to resist the urge to snoop while H is sleeping or not home. Like you said though, what good does it really do? I would appreciate you asking SH though. I can't afford to do counseling through him but I do have an appointment with a counselor (through work) next week.

Thanks everyone for your advice and for just plain listening. It feels so good just to have someone to open up to - even if our opinions differ at times.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dumplin:
<strong>RH, I don't get the comment about the Matrix and the blue pill.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have to see the movie, The Matrix to understand. Basically, John is given a choice to see the truth or go back to denial's life. Red pill will bring him out from the Matrix and blue pill will bring him back to his old life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>No I did not use the condom. Haven't used them with H since we were dating (hated them then too) and yes I go every 6 months to get tested. And not to be too disgusting but the condom that I found I don't know anyone that would use that thing - wasn't just a normal condom we'll put it that way.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Non lubricated one is used by prostitute to do oral. If there is not brand or not the brand that you find in the local store ... it is a "free" condom that are distributed by local health official to combat AIDS. I am glad that I didn't have sex with my WW when PA is hot ... OM has herpes and I truely beleive that she has it now. Please talk to the fog and don't get suck in in the name of saving M. At what cost are you willing to safe M ?. AIDS ? Herpes ? STD ? all of your financial safety ?. IMVHO, get tested and start using condom. If H asks tell him that you love him but you have to protect yourself since you found a condom, you don't want to get AIDS.

About snooping, you have posted that you need to know if H still has A. You have too. But now you have the info., you stop doing it. You might have todo it again in the future. Once you know the answer, you bring back the info. Think about what you are going to do with the info. You don't snoop to find the answer that you already know !, you might confirm it but you should not keep snooping for the same questions.

IMVHO, you are enabling andyou should read Z's post on GQII about Plan A, doormat ...

Good luck. -RH-

RH,

I think she was talking about a - Uh - Ahem "tickler" ?

Sorry just to clarify - as simple as I could say it.

I see both sides here - and yes snooping can be addicting. But I find myself doing it less and feeling better.

Most of my avenues are blown now anyway after confrontations. To assume until actions show otherwise seems to be sound advice.

Good luck Dumplin - keep in touch.

God Bless

I have done a lot of snooping in the past and have found strong evidence about half of the time. I don't believe there is anything wrong with doing it - no moral issues - simply defending yourself.

Having said that I generally feel worse while/after snooping because it feels degrading. This is because I am spending time, finding evidence and I can't use it anyway. I feel that "my life has reduced to having to do this while WS has fun".

I feel better resigning to the fact that A is still happening. I actually feel a bit more empowered knowing this and that I don't have to snoop. It is WS problem, not mine - I will focus on a better plan A. Occasionally in future I will monitor how things are going.

While on plan A there are some observations with WS that will indicate that A is still on. I have some proven signs that I can look for that have been correct in the past. This way WS can't catch me snooping so no LB and I feel better not having to go out of my way and waste time and energy.

DeepBlue,

I think you definitely have it correct with the "waste of my time and energy"!!! I can't believe how enpowering it feels to be able to say to myself, "I don't have to snoop to know what my WH is up to. I now see the signs and won't let his actions effect my Plan A."

If you are Plan Aing, you want to make yourself a better person for everyone, including your WS. Finding these things that hurt you is self-defeating. It lowers your opinion of what you are doing is the right thing. And since I want to make my M work, I am not listening to people, including family, that tell me what I am doing is wrong, stupid and crazy. Reading e-mails written in the FOG do not help this either. So I will not allow myself to defeat ME! That's why I control what I do. It also does help me not to LB. Even if you do not confront your WS with the information you find, I think it influences your actions with them. I can only speak from my experience, but I am not as angry as I used to be at WH. It could be time healing my wounds, or it could be I'm not putting salt in them anymore.

Just a thought...

HUGS!!!
PQ