First off, some background into my situation. Since it just happened recently I have it fresh in my head. It's long but I hope you'll hang with it. I'll try and get to the point as much as I can.

NOTE: If you want to skip all the "Finding Out" stuff and just go to some of my Plan A issues and questions, you can skip down to the 10/29/02 entry or later.

My W and I met over the internet, and had a long distance relationship for about 2 years, seeing each other in person more and more frequently as time went on. 2 years ago, she moved in with me, leaving her friends and family behind. After we lived together for a year, I asked her to marry me. We'd had our share of arguments over that time, mostly stemming from her sadness over missing home, but the good certainly seemed to outweigh the bad, and we loved each other very much.

She got a job that she really enjoyed and after working there for a year, was finally starting to make friends, which I felt would be a good thing for her, as for her 2 years living her, her only contact has been with me and my friends, she never had any of her own. We spent all of our free time together, and, while it was a change for me having someone around all the time, I quickly took to it and truly loved her company. Most times, when we went out, it was just the two of us, it was rare that we'd do something as a group with my friends.

10/14/02 - W did something very out of character for her. She went to work and didn't come home. Of all the time I knew her, she had NEVER done anything like this so naturally I began to worry. I called people and went looking for her, fearing something may have happened to her. She came home around 4 AM, and I immediately could feel something was different. I was so relieved to see her but she seemed more distant. She said she went out drinking after work with a group of people and passed out on the couch at one of the girl's apartments. She said she just forgot to call me and tell me where she was. First off, she never went out anywhere before without me, but that didn't even bother me, one phone call before she left and I would have been fine. What bothered me was that she didn't even call.

10/19/02 - She called me from work to tell me she was going to a party with friends and wouldn't be home that night. I got upset, and begged her to come home and spend the night talking to me. We'd never resolved what happened earlier in the week. She refused. She went out and came in at 7:00 the next morning. All that day, she was acting very strange, trying to get to the computer without me being around, trying to get me to leave the house. It was then I sure that something was being kept from me. In 2 years knowing her, she'd never gone out without me once, now twice in one week, for almost an entire night.

10/20/02 - I asked her several times about her whereabouts, where she was on those two nights. She got irritated that I even asked, answering my questions with as little information as possible. I point blank finally asked her, "Are you waiting for an e-mail from someone else, a new friend from work?" She answered NO and acted like I was a real jerk for asking.

10/21/02 - My resistance to snoop got the best of me, so I checked her email. Sure enough, email from OM. She had been spending the entire day on Sunday trying to get in touch with him again. I went to work, but couldn't concentrate, so I raced back home and confronted her. I got angry. I got upset. I was floored. I was in shock as I hadn't seen it coming, and I NEVER thought she was capable of doing something like this to anyone, let alone me. She was always such a loving, caring person to me. So I made all the classic moves that a BS does -- I ranted and raved, and I demanded to know everything.

She tearfully told me that she was out with him and other co-workers on both nights that week, and that both nights she got drunk and they kissed. And it wasn't innocent little pecks either. They kissed. And that put me over the edge. At least she was honest and told me, but that was all I could stand -- I asked her to pack up and leave. She tearfully started to pack a bag, and then, 10 minutes later, I told her to go to work, and come home that night, and we'll talk. Of course, the problem was, she was going to work where the OM was, and naturally all that I took from the LB was his gain, and he'd be helping out with her EN even more now. Of course, I hadn't been to MB yet, so I didn't know this!

She came home that night and we both cried some more, and I confronted and asked more questions. I was upset, but during the day, I made the decision, not even knowing about Plan A, that she and I could work through this. I loved her and she made a mistake, and it was in the open now. If she was willing to give us a try, I was going to take her back, and work on our relationship. I was surprised when she said she couldn't tell me what she wanted. She was leaning towards leaving us. I never expected that. I was hoping for a tearful "I'm Sorry" (which I got) followed by an "It'll never happen again" (which never came).

10/23/02 - 10/29/02 - We had a prepaid cruise vacation scheduled and after she almost refused to go, we took it. I didn't expect us to solve anything on it but it would have been such a HUGE waste of money to not go. I thought it might even help a little bit, but she was very reluctant to talk about anything on the vacation, as she felt trapped since she had no one to run to (not the OM). During the trip, she emails the OM once, letting me know she is doing it but not letting me read what is said. We had some fun times on the trip, I practice Plan A the entire time (again, still haven't been to MB yet, just trying my best to show her a good time). She sleeps a lot of the time on the trip and does not want to talk at all about the incident or us. Just ignores it.

10/28/02 - The night before we get home, she tells me it's over, she has no faith in us and that she's "never having sex with me again" after I ask if she remembered to take her pill (we haven't had sex in weeks before this as well). I get angry and accuse her of never giving us a chance, tell her she's had her mind made up from the start and she agrees.

10/29/02 - We get home and I try to continue (with Plan A), though snooping gets the best of me again. We haven't been home an hour, and her flirtatious emails with OM have started right back up. They are getting stronger, even though he was resistant, both due to the fact that she was M and that he wasn't even sure he was interested. She was pursuing HIM now. Even after my offer to work things better between us.

So, again, even after reading this, I lose it again (remember, I still haven't read the MB Plan A yet or even been here). I calmly but sternly told her that since I know she is still having her A, that she must leave. I told her that she was welcome to stay if the A stopped, but it hadn't, so she needed to move out. Either home with her folks, or get her own place. I knew she loved her job too much to leave it, and that she wouldn't want to leave her friends or the OM (at least not now), so her choice would be to get her own place. I tell her to stop wearing her wedding rings, it's an insult to me to have them on as she sees him. She does and I realize that was awful. I told her I was sorry and I wish she would wear them again. I wear mine now. She doesn't. That hurts me. I said that out of anger not thinking ahead to what I really wanted. I will never do that again.

11/1/02 - She left for the weekend to see her folks. She'll be back late Sunday night. I don't snoop at all or doubt her intentions during this weekend. I feel good thinking that she at least said she told him on Thursday night that she was stopping things with him until she could figure things out. This could be the end of the A, I thought.

11/2/02 - I discover MB, and read. And read. And read. And everything that's taken place over the past 2 weeks starts making more sense. I start to understand more, and calm down. I realize I'm not the first person this ever happened to. There are other people out there like me. And that so much of what has happened has been textbook case type stuff. I also realize that my behavior is not helping. Since I've now done a lot of reading at MB, and I realize that she says she is ending the A, I give her the benefit of the doubt. I send an e-mail to her knowing she'll see it from her folks' place. In it, I tell her that she is welcome to stay at the house if she would like to. I asked her if she was sure she really wanted to leave me and leave our home.

I realized that I was already working on Plan A without even knowing it. I wanted her to realize that I loved her and that I could forgive her. I wanted to learn to trust her again. Most of all, I wanted to understand what allowed this rift between us to appear, and how to make things better. I wanted to meet her EN. I wanted to deposit truckloads into her LB. All of this was what I wanted to do. I just wish it wasn't so hard to do while my WW was still in the "fog".

11/3/02 - She comes home late that night. She was at her folks' place for the weekend (no questions there). Truth. At least I hope so. She could have stopped to see him on her way back without telling me, of course, but who knows. I wanted to believe she didn't. Still unsure on that one. I ask her if she got the mail. She said yes, and that her answer was yes, she wanted to stay and did not want to leave. But she says things are "complicated" and she wants to talk tomorrow as it's late. She goes off to the other bedroom (she's been sleeping apart from me since everything started, by the way).

11/4/02 - I leave the situation alone in the morning, even at night, as she comes home from a rough day at work. I attempt to talk to her about it but she is distant. I make her dinner, get her drinks (stuff I used to always do, nothing special), and she asks to watch TV. Finally, after a while, I ask her about the talk she said we could have. She gets upset and doesn't want to talk, but a few things come out. Since I was getting calls from apartments all day, I told her I assumed she was moving out. But I again reaffirmed my commitment to her. I told her that she can stay if she wants to work on us. I told her I wasn't kicking her out of the house. I told her if she leaves, she is leaving ME, I am not forcing her to go. Nor will I try and force her to stay either. All I asked her is that she put her A on hold if she stay at the house, as I felt that was disrespectful to me. She agreed and -- Was that a mistake? Not good Plan A, right? I asked her for no more lies, said there was no reason for us to lie to each other anymore.

5 minutes after that talk, she left the room to return phone calls about apartments. Or so I hoped. She tells me that she is going to look at a place, and is off. I wait and wait. After she's gone for an hour, my snooping gene kicks in again. I check her mail, and yep, she was emailing the OM and went off to meet with him as he left their workplace. He'd walked her to her car that night and she was going back again to spend more time with him. So 5 minutes after I poured my heart out and asked her for no more lies, she emailed him, and lied to me to leave and see him.

Plan A I believe says I should have left it alone. I couldn't. I felt like a fool. A doormat. Everything from her mouth seemed to be a lie. So I left the email up on the screen for her to see when she returned, and went to bed.

She came home an hour later, and came right to me to talk. I know that my snooping was again a major LB withdrawal as was her lies a major LB withdrawal for me. She sits down to talk to me. It starts off angry and I do my best to stay calm.

I told her my thoughts. I felt betrayed. She again ran down the list of hurtful things. Now the time that she says she has felt emotionally distant from me is up to "the last SIX months" (was three before). She says she loves me still and loved me then, but she was always missing something. She hoped I could learn to give her what she needed emotionally but the longer it went without me doing it, the less she had faith in us. She blamed herself for shutting me out, which started about 3 months ago (looking back, I can see it now). She tells me that since it started, she didn't want to have sex with me anymore, and anytime she did was to just get it over with. She still felt physically attracted to me, but that sex is also emotional and without that, it was pointless. She said most of this is her fault for shutting me out. I told her that the deterioration of our relationship is something we are both responsible for. Her A was her decision, but what led up to it was a factor caused by both of us.

Now, here come all the hurtful things she said - As the articles here say, I'm not supposed to let any of this stuff get to me, and I think I've seen all of these come up before:
-- She loves me, she's still physically attracted to me, but she's not EMOTIONALLY attracted to me anymore.
-- She IS attracted to him emotionally
-- She has shut me out and lost faith in me and us for the past 3-6 months
-- I never gave her whatever she's missing, and she is doesn't think I ever will be able to give it to her

I tell her that 3 days ago, she told me she was putting him on hold, and now she's back on with him. In those 4 days, I had done nothing negative to her at all. I gave her my full trust and love and devotion. But it took her 3 days of saying her A was over to decide that it was back on. She had no answer to that fact. She knew she was wrong to tell me her A was over when it never was. I speculate it was just so she could stay at the house for longer, still have her A and a comfy place to live while she apartment hunted.

Now, here's an important point I want to bring up regarding all of Plan A, and something I need to run by the experts here for an opinion on how my Plan A is going and what hope there might be for us. Keep in mind the following has happened several times over the past 2 weeks: She acklowledges the fact that she is going to miss so much of what we have right now. She is scared to be without me. She is scared of the future. She tells me that she is getting her emotional needs from him but she gets so much more from me. SHE REALIZES THIS. She claims that she doesn't think she and OM have a future because of how they started and because he will be the one that drove she and I apart. She and I recall some of the good times we've had and she cries over the thought of losing that. This has happened quite a few times over the past 2 weeks. But the end result is always the same -- She says she is drowning right now, and she is afraid to stay, and has no faith that I can fulfill her EN. I think she's in the fog, but I don't want it to be too late before it lifts.

Here's another interesting point, too -- She didn't tell her parents all weekend what happened. I'd always gone with her to visit them, as they live far away. I asked her what they said when she told her about us, and she said she didn't tell them a thing. Why did she not do this? Guilt? Postponing it? Saving it for a phone call? Or perhaps hoping we may reconcile and they'd never have to know? I'm not sure. I was shocked that she chose not to tell them anything though. Even now, I have already spoken to friends and immediate family about what happened, I needed some people to talk to and to get support, opinions, etc, especially before I found MB.

We are distant but occasionally hug, I am the one who initates the hugs and I don't think she minds. They are not the same hugs as we used to have, but it is something. I just want her to know that despite the lies and deception and her confusion, I still care about her very much and I am not giving up on her. She is giving up on me.

11/5/02 - Her apartment search continues. She claims to have an appointment to look at one tonight, again close to the time he leaves from work. I am doing my best to hold my tongue in accusing her that she is going to see him. I shouldn't do this, right? I guess that she would already think I suspected anyway, without my having to say.

Before she left for work this morning, I told her to think and make sure she makes the right decision. I know she again will be spending time with OM today as she does every day. I told her that I believe one day, maybe in a month, maybe in a year, she will regret leaving me and giving up on us. She said she knows that, and it about made her cry. But I don't think that's enough for her to change her mind. All she says to that is "That's what makes this so hard." She's still stuck in the present. I wish she could look 6 months ahead and think of where her possible choices will take her. What hurts me is that a lot of times I'm not sure why she's sad -- If she's sad for us as a couple, or just for herself because she'll be lonely. Or maybe it's a little of both.

I think her worst fear is staying and having things get worse. In her mind, she's already given me 6 months to make things better between us. In my mind, I've had less than 2 weeks to improve on us, knowing finally what her feelings truly were. I guess for her, the thought of staying is unbearable. For me, it seems like I never had a chance.

Today, I emailed her some links to the EN survey and an article or two here at MB. Now I'm reading that I shouldn't try to educate. I guess I messed up again. The articles were just so good and summarized our situation (as well as how things can be remedied) that I thought her seeing them may give her confidence in us. Bad idea? I also have "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters" on order right now. Expecting them soon. Should I read "Surviving An Affair" too? Maybe she'd like to read them as well. I dunno.

Now that she knows MB, I realize she may read more. That may be good or it may be bad. I'm certainly not trying to keep what I'm doing here a secret, though. I don't feel Plan A or B are anything that need to be forced, these are things I would have done anyway as I truly love her, care about her, and still believe that we can be very happy together, happier than ever with the more we learn about each other. I am learning so much from this process that I feel regardless of whether this relationship can be saved, I'll be a better man for it. And if she gives up on us, the next time I meet someone, I will be SO much wiser when it comes to her needs.

If she comes here and reads this, I'm sure that may even be a LB, so giving her the MB link may have even been a mistake. But, then again, all I am saying is true, and it's totally nonymous. Plus, being here and saying all this really helps me put things into perspective. And I value your opinions, as you all know what I'm going through.

I can only assume right now that she will be leaving and Plan B will be starting soon. I still have faith that their PA has not gone past kissing. That's bad in itself, but the thought of it going further than that takes my LB down to an all time low. I'd love to be able to take her back during Plan B, when I expect she might realize she misses us after being apart, though I'm not sure how far or how long this A is going to go once she's in her own place, and she and he can see each other as much as they please. She may sign a lease any day now. Maybe even today.

SO, THAT'S WHERE IT STANDS. Did I set the record for longest single MB post ever?

SOME OTHER FACTS/CONCERNS I'D LOVE TO HEAR THOUGHTS ON...

She lives 10 minutes from where she works and from where the OM lives, so right now, it's very easy for her to see him, especially since they work so close together at the same place 5 days a week.

I knew that her seeing him every day at her job was not going to allow the A to stop. She of course, claims that she hasn't "cheated" on me or had "an affair" since there hasn't been sex yet. I really want to believe there hasn't been sex, but I must argue that she has both had an affair and cheated on me. Am I not correct in saying that?

One of my biggest concerns right now is the fact that this happened so soon. Is time a factor when it comes to these things? Does it make a difference as to how much faith I should have in my W given the fact that just 6 months after we were M, her feelings for me started to wane? From where I'm sitting, the timeframe doesn't mean much to me, but to others I've talked to, it seems they feel that the fact that it happened so quickly does not bode well for future happiness for us. I don't want to feel that way, but I'd love to hear some thoughts on that aspect from anyone reading this as well. It could really be viewed a few different ways -- Hey, we got it out of the way early, and now we have a lifetime to know each other better than ever, or, is the fact that it happened so fast a sign that she never truly loved me or that this could happen so easily again?

There is nothing I can think about now except convincing her that we are worth the chance -- That I am so confident that there is no one in the world that can make her happier than I can -- That I love her with all of my heart and soul -- That we can both learn from mistakes and we can move on and learn to love each other like never before. I just feel awful for every day that I took her for granted, or us for granted, and hopeful that she might somehow come to the realization that we can be great again.

---

I just want to also say what an amazing site this is. Sorry I had to discover it this way, wish I'd have found it even before I got M, but it truly is a wonderful resource. It's been informative and very reassuring to read the
professional articles, Q&As, and especially first-hand accounts in the forums from others who have been through the same thing as me. It amazes me how much my situation mirrors so many others out there.

Thanks to everyone, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts, opinions, and suggestions. I plan to keep coming back to this thread periodically to post about my progress, if not only for feedback but for my own sense of sanity, even if you don't read this. But if you do, let me know, it'd be even nice to know if there was an audience!

Thank you all!

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

WOW! The similarities between our WW's are uncanny. (and I've heard that before too.)

My WW has said the same things, done the same things, gone out with coworker and not come home until late (how it all started for me.)

My general advice to you is to assume the worst with your WW. BUT!!! don't let that affect your actions. Keep on with Plan A. #1 do not LB!!!
her words and actions will vascillate. She is confused. There will be many bad days but don't let that stop your Plan A and cause you to fall off the path and LB.

Instead stay the course and even try to meet all her needs asap. Think about what things you could have been doing better all along. How have you lost sight of what your role as H should have been? Answer that question for yourself and change right away. Show your WW your changes (but don't tell her...let her see them.)

Be strong, you will make it through this WHATEVER happens AND you will be a better person.

Feel free to read/skim my thread for some good advice I've received over the last few months as well as learn from my mistakes etc...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=30;t=001238;p=1

aaanst,

Hi, nice to meet you. I have already read almost your entire thread (before you even replied here). I said the same thing while reading it, and yes, I've learned a lot from what you've read.

Having your Plan A go on for so long and still seeing that she may be leaving anyway really says something to me, though. You have done amazingly well with it, and I can see that you have improved yourself incredibly. I hope to do the same. You are a stronger person than I with all you have accepted from her.

I'm only 3 weeks out from D-Day, though with the A getting only worse, not better, I am now assuming that more is starting to go on, and doing my best not to LB any longer. However, her lack of interest in us at all is making major withdrawals from my love bank, which I can't help but think will make a reconciliation even harder for me, if that ever came about. I'm quite impressed that after all she has put you though, you're still being true to your Plan. Bravo.

I've got an update on the latest coming up in the next post.

Thanks for your reply, and I hope to hear from some others as well regarding what I've done right and wrong with Plan A so far. I cleaned up my first post so it should be much easier to read now.

ALS

11/5/02 -- Last night, she had scheduled an appointment to look at an apartment after work around 7 PM. Instead of coming home for a couple hours after work, she sent me a short email telling me she was working late. I assume I'll get a lot of these from now on. She ended up coming home after 1 AM. I was already asleep of course, I won't wait up for her or confront her anymore during her late night outings. It won't do me any good.

After she is gone for a while, I forget and feel better. But hearing her come home still hurts. It makes me wish she would just leave completely. The continuation of the A right under my nose is too much to handle for me.

I really don't believe anything she says right now. I tried to believe for so long but I have given up on that, at least until I feel she is trying to be honest with me. So, I have decided to assume the worst when she's out all of these nights. Obviously she and the OM are talking a lot to meet her EN, but I can't help but think that during these long, late hours that things are getting more physical, sexual, whatever the case may be.

I have now realized that asking her about it will do no good. Nor will accusing. No matter what she says, I won't believe her right now. So even if she claimed she was out talking until 1 in the morning, I'll assume worse.

I think she knows that, too. I decided not to confront her at all about it. We both know how late she was out.

This morning, I said hello when I saw her, asked her about her apartment appointment -- She said she waited and the person never showed, and the apartment was awful looking from outside anyway. Then she left for work. I'm sure the fact she was out so late was on both of our minds. But I resisted saying anything about it at all. Good Plan A practice?

My biggest problem with Plan A is that I have no chance to practice it, really. She doesn't want to talk or be around me very much. In these 3 weeks since D-Day, she's become even more distant. I hate to say it, but I hope she finds a place and moves out very soon. It's too much torture for me to basically be keeping up a home where she just comes to sleep and shower. I am feeling like a major doormat right now, and don't think it's fair.

This weekend we both have off from work. And I dread it. I know that either she will stay here and try to avoid me, or just spend the greater part of it with the OM. She claims we are all talked out about this situation and what more do we have to say. I considered asking her to a movie or something normal but I can't help but think she'd rather be with him, or worse, say yes to me but out of pity and hate every minute of it.

Truthfully, I was hoping that she'd have an apartment by the weekend. I highly doubt that will happen now. I don't think it's because she is questioning moving out, though, I think it's more because she enjoys all the cake eating right now. It's easy for her.

She is too busy enjoying the fact she can have the comforts of the house and still do as she pleases with the OM. I really do resent this. I am resisting the urge to ask her to leave again. I know this would be a major LB so I am biting my tongue.

I am still unsure if I will be able to take her back after she moves out, even if Plan B is a success. Her continuation of the A and unwillingness to even talk to me is making major love bank withdrawals from me, and I'm starting to question us as a couple, and think of how much better off I'd be without her in the long run.

So far, in our talks, the only thing she has opened up to me about has been that I just can't meet her emotional needs. That I was never a good listener and eventually she just shut me out. Other than that, supposedly, I was a great husband to her. Now, there may be more that she didn't tell me, or perhaps her just saying that she is fickle and got bored with me or wants to experiment due to being so young is something that's too hurtful.

I almost think there has to be more. With her finally opening up to me about the listening and emotional needs, I am determined to change that. Whether she stays or not I'll be better at that, no question. But my saying that never even made her think twice about giving us another chance. So I'm thinking there must be more.

Like most WS's, she claims that the OM is not the reason for leaving. She had been unhappy for months and the A just started. My discovering the A just gives her an easy way to discuss all our problems. I would have even respected it more if she just left sooner, whether it's the OM or not driving her away from me, I could have at least felt better about her leaving on her own accord, rather than due to an OM.

Anyway, that's the latest. Wish I had better, more optimistic news, but I don't. I will say that I have been working out and eating right, though sleeping is still tough on the nights she is out. I am feeling confident in that I am going to be a better person regardless of what happens here, and know that whatever does happen will be for the best.

Thanks for listening. Comments always welcome!

ALS

Well, right now I feel like a very weak, uncommitted person. I fell off the Plan A wagon last night, after reading a lot of the books and spending a nice night with my wife.

She actually came home last night and spent the evening with me. We had dinner, talked a little bit (not much), watched some TV together and she even gave me a nice hug before she went to go to bed.

Then, I again let my curiosity get the best of me, and I checked the computer -- Earlier in the night, I asked her if she wanted some time alone, as I could see she was a bit sketchy about my being around. Sure enough, in that time she sent the OM a ton of lurid, sexual emails, the details of which I will not go into here, just basically telling him how she can't wait to be with him outside of the workplace this weekend, etc.

I was actually hoping she might try and spend the weekend with me.

Anyway, all of this was too much for me. After several opportunities I gave her to try and work things out as a couple, it was obvious her A was not lessening. It was getting worse. And I felt like a major doormat for continuing to provide her a place to live, sleep, eat, and continue to go on with this A right under my nose.

So, I told her to be out by tomorrow. I can't take it anymore. I don't feel like I want her back anymore. I used to think we could work through anything, but my LBnk is way beyond negative now. In just one year of marriage, she has completely destoyed all we had, and I have lost all faith in her.

I guess this is what happens to a lot of you, in fact I admire your strengtn and love for your spouses in that you can continue with Plan A knowing of everything that is going on with OP. Though I realize I was not meeting my wife's EN, and admitted this to her, I never had the chance to fix it. I was a great provider and a good husband, and have been a lifelong "nice guy" and I feel I deserve a better woman at my side.

Right now, I am just looking forward to her getting all her things out of the house and being out of my life.

I feel like I have failed in the MB program. But I just don't think I could have taken another day of her living at this house knowing what she has done to us. I did want to save our marriage and prove to her that I was worth it, but she had no faith in me, or us, and frankly, I don't know how I could in good conscience take her back after seeing what she has said and knowing what she has done.

Even if she'd have just left me for being dissatisfied first, before starting with a new guy, I could at least respect that. But having an A and continuing it...

How horrible some human beings can be.

Well, you've all now been witness to an angry outburst, right in front of your very eyes.

It's funny, because it's such an LB, but that's what happens to a lot of us with an A I guess. Sometimes it all gets to be too much to handle and we lash out.

Yesterday, I wrote my wife a Plan B letter. The timing was right as later in the day I found out she'd just found an apartment for herself anyway. So, in a way, she was already leaving, but I just wanted to explain to her on paper how much I wanted to keep our marriage alive, and that I still loved her, despite my anger and despair.

It's only been 17 days since D-day, I feel like things are moving so much faster than they do for the rest of you. But as much as I wanted to Plan A, I don't know if that's the best course of action right now.

Given the fact that our marriage has been so short, and we have no kids, most opinions here seem to think staying in Plan A is better. Perhaps that will actually be easier to do for me with her out of the house.

My biggest problem has been my inability to stop snooping -- When I see the email that she's sent the OM, my anger takes over and I get upset with her. Or, when she leaves the house for just about the entire night and comes home at 1 in the morning, and I know she's been with him, that hurts as well. Both the e-mails and knowing she is out with him so often have been major LBs for me.

Does anyone have any opinions on what the next steps should be? She is not ending the A, on the contrary from what I've seen they are likely days away from having sex, if not today (though I don't believe it's happened yet). Her A is getting worse, not better. She admits that she is confused when she talks to me, and that she is unsure of all her decisions, but the A seems to keep winning out.

Last night, she cried when she read my letter -- I could tell it was very moving for her. It was very tough for me to write as well. We spent a couple hours of the night as we did before the A, talking, having dinner, watching a TV show...But then she told me she needed "to get some air" and left for 2 hours. I hope she doesn't think I'm gullible enough to know that she's not going to see him.

I know and she and the OM have plans together tonight (Friday), and since I told her I can't take her coming home after being with him anymore, I don't want her staying here. So she's putting herself up in a hotel until Monday, when she can come get her stuff and start moving into her new place.

When she came back last night, since it may very well be our last night at the same place together, she got in the bed and slept next to me, for the first night since I found out about the A. She cuddled up to me once or twice last night and this morning, and I held her, and I told her that I wish things didn't have to end. She said that she did, too. But she stopped short of saying she wouldn't see him anymore or move out. I think that was just her trying to make me feel better.

She's off to work today, I took a day off for a sanity break, and she'll be back afterwards to pick up clothes for the weekend. Then, I suppose I'll get her housekey and she'll officially have slept her last night here.

It's funny, after all the things I saw her write to him, and all she's admitted so far about the A, I still love her dearly. I think she knows that. But I also think she's still in the fog. I was hopeful I might be able to convince her to wait to have sex with the OM, at least until she was SURE about us -- Though I think she thinks she IS sure now, so I am worried about what the next step will be tonight, especially now that's she's out on her own.

That's the latest -- Anyone have any thoughts about these developments? What did I do right? What did I do wrong?

I know I can't force her A to end. It's been obvious from D-day that she wasn't going to just up and end it, especially since she works with him all day long. Very tough to do.

For now, I suppose I'll take it one day at a time. I remain open to a future with her, though also continue to prepare for her to be out of my life forever. It's hard to say what I'd do if she promised me the A was over and asked for me to take her back at this point. It was an easy decision at first, but each day that she spends with him, and the closer they get, the harder reconciliation gets for me.

I look forward to your thoughts, as always.

ALS

ALS,

I lurked your post since I reply to you on plan A/B forum. She is out of the fog when she is back last night. Now it is a critical point for her to choose OM or you. It depends if OM is ready to take her or not and it depends if she is willing to let go this M. Since you have not that long doing plan A, actually what you are doing is tough love. This is my 2¢. You have to be honest to her !, if work place is bothering you, you should express it to her and discuss how to mitigate that feeling. This is the time that you have to see what ammends will satify you. Don't go by if she is willing but if she could. This is for your recovery and got nothing to do with her. Of course you should include counseling w/ MB (or local certify MB counseler or pastor). If she has to move job to get you there, discuss it with her.

Just keep your finger cross ... until the cow settle home, this 'coaster is still running.

-rh-

redhat,

I wish I could be as optimistic as you are as far as her being out of the fog. I was thinking she just came to bed with me last night because it was her last night in the house and she felt she had to. I mean, it was her LAST NIGHT here and she had to leave to see him for a couple hours. That I didn't think was a good sign.

I know for a fact that the two plan to spend tonight together, probably all night (assuming the worst) at her hotel -- I wish she would come home tonight and tell me that she's made a mistake, I just don't have a lot of confidence in that right now.

I think if anything, she's going to need to sleep with this guy or even spend more time with him before she knows if she even has something more with him than we had. I wish she didn't need that, I really do, but she's been thinking about him constantly for the past weeks, and it's been getting stronger, not weaker.

I have told her that her seeing him every day bothers me, as does her coming home so late at night when I know she's out with him. Her response is, and has always been that it's over between us, and that I shouldn't care or have a right to know what she does anymore.

While we did share some nice moments last night, I think she's still in the fog because she went to him last night and she'll go again tonight.

You're right though, if she settled on staying here, that would be progress for sure. Right now though, I just think she's sad because her actions have finally caught up with her, and the reality of losing me, and our home, and all we've had over the past years is hitting home. The OM may help dull that for a while, as I'm sure it's euphoric for her to be with him, but I think in the back of her mind, she is still thinking of all she is leaving behind.

I will keep you updated, thanks for your response.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, you've all now been witness to an angry outburst, right in front of your very eyes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well - I've been witness to my own outbursts and they're no more attractive.

You've just done much better than I verbilizing it. Consider this a gift. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have reciently learned to try to communicate more through letters. I can think of what I want to say and communicate it after carefully choosing my words - an option I refuse myself if I lash out.

Stay on top of it - you see many of us have found the strength to try to work on our marriages. That's what makes it so hard. If we could "just hate" our spouses, we could kick them out and be done with it.

Fact is - we love our spouses and choose to work with our marriages. It's truly a life changing situation.

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: strive ]</small>

Alostsoul,

I consider myself a seasoned MBer. I have just recently started counseling with Steve Harley. I am also in an active Plan A. Please let me share some thoughts with you about how you can make doing what is really an exhausting and selfless Plan to restore intimacy to your marriage.

Firstly....set a time limit. To expect it to be successful....somewhere in the neighbor of 3 to 6 months is reasonable. Plan A is not a way of life. The things you learn you can use for the rest of your life, but intentionally ignoring and trying to fill your own needs while using all of your energy to fulfill hers....can be very tiring. So take care of yourself. When you have done as good of a plan A for a reasonable amount of time....and three weeks is a drop in the bucket <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> then....hopefully with some coaching....you move to plan B.

If you have not read anything about "the fog" you should....because that is where your wife is right now. While she is in this "fog" of new love euphoria....she will not respond in reasonable ways or follow reasonable rules. She will operate outside of the rules...because she is not seeing clearly. Many people liken it to talking to a drunk.

I'm going to post this now and then continue so you don't leave yet okay?

It is not unusual at all for marriages to have problems right from the start....that should not affect your ability to build a good marriage. I know for me....the first 4 years of marriage was awful...then we made it through and had about 10 great ones. Now we are back in trouble again. So don't be discouraged that you have had problems right away.

Back to Plan A.....Plan A is NOT about being a doormat. It is NOT about failing to negotiate what you need. It is NOT about being and android designed for her pleasure. It is perfectly okay...even in a Plan A....to tell your wife that you feel confused and sad when she is dishonest to you. Or stays out at night. You are right that interrogation won't help. But calm assertiveness is perfectly acceptable in Plan A. As long as you avoid Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts and the other LBs, you are allowed to express your unhappiness and how you feel. State your concerns in this way......I feel_____ when this happens.

I hate to go...but I must....I will stop back later and share some more.

Think about posting on the EN board...there is so much more traffic there.

Starfish,

Thanks for your reply. It is at least reassuring to hear what you say about the earlier part of marriage. I agree that the time factor is not as important as I once thought it to be. In fact, better now than later as far as I'm concerned. Either we get a chance to have a GREAT marriage for hopefully the rest of our lives, or we can move on with our own lives. So I can at least be thankful for that, I suppose (not to mention, financial stuff is quite simple for us if we do Dv, however that is secondary to just having her in my life and how important that remains to me).

As for staying in Plan A: Unfortunately, my WW seemed to be having equal problems with the guilt of the A, and I was being LB'ed left and right, along with a few outburrts of my own that were LB's for her as well. So my Plan A has been fairly short-lived. I've already given her a Plan B letter and she's scheduled to sign a lease on her new place on Monday. I know that I did not make it easy for her to stay in the house, I snooped a lot and realized the A was continuing and even growing, and had several LBing outburts in which I told her she was no longer welcome here. I regret those, yes, but also realize that I was being LB'ed as well, and the more I read about Plan B, I think it's the safest thing to protect the love I have left for her having her apart from me, as tough as that is.

She's out of the house this weekend at a hotel, likely spending it with OM. I agree she is in the fog, I think SHE even realizes she is in the fog -- She herself told me yesterday that when she is with me, she loves me and asks herself why she's doing this, but as soon as she sees him again (every day at work), she can't control herself -- If that's not the fog, I dunno what is. She acknowledged that the only way to stop A would be her leaving her job but stopped short of saying she was willing to do that for us. I told her that I could not give her that ultimatium, it's a decision she'd need to come to on her own.

All I could do is ask her to THINK before she left yesterday, and make sure she was making the right decision. All of her actions seemed to indicate that she was still going through with leaving the house and moving into her own place though, as well as continuing with the A this weekend, probably full blown PA now that she is moving out. The next time I see her, it will likely be Monday when she comes by to pack her things. Will be a sad day.

It's not what I wanted for us, but I guess Plan B will start. I can't continue Plan A with her out of the house, knowing she is seeing OM even more frequently. Perhaps NC between she and I will help her out of the fog. I know it may go the other way as well. I am fully prepared for that.

I've sort of been jumping threads a lot, did post a few things in the General area due to the higher traffic. Anyone that's reading this thread, there are more updates on my past few days at the following threads. Please feel free to comment here or there. I will try to keep general updates coming as much as I can.

Events of Friday 11/8/02

Followup Question Regarding Separation Dating

ALS

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

ALS,

Your thread was so long, I didn't have time to read all of it. I am so sorry that you felt compelled to do a Plan B, but I can certainly understand it. I have been married for twenty years....I have survived two infidelities...and I do know how much this hurts.

One thing that should give you some hope and encouragement is the Chapter in SAA about how affairs end....seeing him everyday is not necessarily a bad thing now that you are in Plan B. It gives her a chance to see that he is not the prince she imagined him to be. While you do not have the ability to fill ENs, if you are careful NEVER to LB during this time....you can give him enough rope to hange himself. Most affairs end a natural death all by themselves....that's because once they see the "light of day" they lose a lot of their luster. Let this guy mess up while you treat her at all times with respect and kindness. Be smart.

How did you write your Plan B letter? Did you post it and get infor from others? Did you look at samples? Are you strictly adhering to NC at all and only communicating through a mediator?

Be strong and don't give up hope. hugs!

Yes, I looked at some other Plan B letters on this forum for ideas, and added some of my own words as well. I didn't have a lot of time, with her actively apartment hunting already, and I did have some thoughts I wanted to get down on paper for her before she left, so I worked fast. But I do feel that it was a very honest, effective letter, she cried and hugged me after she read it. Not that it seemed to stall her A one bit, though.

I am sorry that I had to move into Plan B as well, though I try to be strong it's just easier on my heart, or at least it will be (she just left yesterday) to not have to look at her almost every day with the A continuing.

I think, except for the few outburts I've had since D-Day, I did get the point across that I still love her and would take her back, and she's seen that I am reading MB books and working so hard on learning what ENs I wasn't meeting of hers. So, I am secure in the knowledge that, while my Plan A wasn't long lasting, that she at least knows how much I care and how dedicated I am to her. It was just hurting me too much to see the A going on right from our home, right under my nose.

As for your statement about not having the ability to fill all her ENs, I realize that I was missing that before, but with the "wake up call" of the A, I truly do believe that if she would just open herself back up to me, I could meet her ENs better than anyone ever before. I would hope that would allow her to meet mine as well. I dream of she and I together again in bed, talking and even taking turns reading the MB books, learning and discussing our relationship. I wish she'd be willing to give us that chance.

Plan B hasn't started officially yet, I expect if she decides to move to new place the last day I will see her will be Monday, though she may be here off and on all next week to pick up things to move. She's not moving far away at all as she is keeping her job and the OM, but it will still take her a few trips, she has a lot of things here. My plan is to just help her to pack her things and not LB at all, does that sound right to you?

Now, here's the other kicker though -- OM is pressuring her to file Dv papers (for his peace of mind I'm sure) -- We would file no-fault (we have no dispute financially, would be a clean break) so I would need to see her to sign and have all that stuff notorized, something we'd have to do together. That would sorta blow NC. I hope she takes her time in filing but I'm not sure. In our state, it takes 90 days for any Dv to become effective, so her filing wouldn't necessarily be the end, though I was hoping she'd wait and just hold onto them for a while. Would it hurt for me to tell her to just take her time filing, and not to rush into it, after she moves out?

Thanks for your continued insight.

ALS

ASL,

Sometimes I get frustrated with this forum, because there is so much good information here, and when it is used the way it is supposed to be...it has the best chance for success.

Forgive me for saying this, but I think you jumped to fast into a Plan B. Plan B is the natural progression....and a reasonable step after a good Plan A. Think of it this way. It took a time for your marriage to reach the stage where it was vulnerable to an affair. It takes almost as long or longer to rebuild what has been lost.

When you asked folks here about moving to Plan B...did they agree that you should? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Steve Harley has asked me to commit to at least three months....and I am not facing the deep problems that you are. You had a fraction of that time to try and build trust and intimacy. Remember, this is advice is free....but the folks here are not professionals. In the future, if you have a really important question....please call for the old timers here. Too often it's the blind leading the blind. For all of that...I would not trade this site for anything. It has been my salvation many times.

You think it is impossible to do a Plan A when you live apart...but it isn't. I have seen it done. And I have seen it done sucessfully. In any case....you have written the letter, and now you will have to change strategy. Also it doesn't sound like you have accomplished a true Plan B anyway. Once you send that letter....all contact should cease....except through a mutual mediator. Your situation doesn't fit this right now. And if you back track....you may not be able to use the Plan B at all and be believed as serious. This is a bit of a challenge.....especially since you love your wife.

If you expect this plan to work...to have a chance to work....leave the house now. Stop contact now. Leave and return when she is gone. I would have much prefered that you had continued Plan A and moved naturally into this....instead of losing your temper and reacting. I completely understand how hard the whole A thing is....but Plan A has a much better success rate than B. B is the last ditch effort. The way to help you stop hurting. Plan A is the foundation for B.

That doesn't mean I think you have lost the chance to save your marriage....but for this plan to work...it must be real. Feel real to the WS. There must be a calm assuredness in your actions that will not yeild until the A ends. Without that....with continued contact and emotions and pain....well it is not Plan B.

I feel so crummy telling you this. But it is important for everyone here to really understand these concepts, especially if they are going to try and help others....or are resting the future of their marriages on them. When in doubt....it's really easy to call Harley or some of the folks who have been here for years.

This is not over ASL....I don't think it's over by a long shot....but it is going to take strength, love and patience to make it through the weeks ahead. God bless you.

I appreciate your honesty, I really do.

In hindsight, I sort of ditched out in my Plan B letter. I never really spelled out that contact was to stop. That was always something I felt that would be implied. Looking back at my letter though I can see I wasn't firm with that. So, if you are saying Plan A should continue, I want you to know that it's not too late for that.

On Friday, I thought of leaving the house and not seeing my W. I stayed though, and worked on my Plan A before she left for the weekend, and was so glad that I did. I don't think it changed the plans for her weekend at all, but at least it made her think a bit, if only for a while.

No one ever told me to move to Plan B, I just sort of took the natural progression. I tried my best to put my best foot forward, but reminders of the A kept creeping in, my W was out multiple nights a week with the OM, and not even talking to me at all when she was home. No chance for me to even Plan A, she has shut me out. She began apartment hunting almost immediately after D-day, despite my multiple pleas for her to stay and work on our marriage (though I did give the condition that the A would need to stop).

So, given what you have said, and since I gave her the letter in person, and have not yet actually shut her out completely or given her that final NC statement, perhaps I will reconsider continuing Plan A. The more I think about it, I gave her a Plan A letter, moreso encouraging her to move out, but not so much saying I would no longer speak with her.

I'm still not sure what my next steps will be now. I appreciate you telling me what you have, don't feel bad saying anything at all, honesty is what I need to hear right now, especially since I'm still not getting it from my WW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I will keep you informed as to what happens next. It's another quiet night here at the house. I imagine it will be a bit easier when I at least don't KNOW which nights my WW is with the OM -- Knowing that she is with him presently hurts a great deal. While I don't expect this to be the outcome, there still remains a small hope in me that she will somehow come to her senses over this weekend with him, and come back to me to talk, maybe even tomorrow. If I don't see her again until Monday, though, I am sure she will be moving out.

I am afraid it's too late for my W to stay here at the house. I wished I could be stronger and have encouraged her to stay while her A continued, but it was too much for me to take. Perhaps, given your advice, I will try Plan A with her at her own place. The hardest part of that is that I will feel I am sharing her with someone else, or, worse, being used to still meet her other ENs while the OM is getting everything back. Then again, that's why they say A is so hard, I guess.

By the next time I see her, I will need to make a decision as to stay on the Plan A or Plan B path. At least I still have that option (glad I kept a copy of the letter!)

Thank you.

ALS

ALS,

Under the circumstances you describe, even though it will be very difficult, I do believe that you should continue to Plan A. I will try to hook you up with a couple of people who have had to do it while separated. I would very much like you to post to Lost & Found on the EN board....he could be a great friend and coach for you and of course I will help as well. Plan B is a drastic move....and it is just way too early for you to go there. Use these concepts the way they are intended.

Please, please....do this one thing for me. Go to the bookstore and get a copy of "Surviving an Affair"...your life is in there! Your pain is in there and where to go from here is in there. Plan A and B are detailed and it is worth the read. It sounds like you can definitely restart an effective Plan A...and I truly believe you should. It is vital that you do this the right way!!!

If you decide to post to Lost&Found....tell him that star asked you to....and that you need a good coach to help you through your Plan A while separated...and believe me....he's the guy to do it.....he's been there. He has great insight.

Keep posting, I'll check up on you....buy the book!!!!! Bless you! hugs

sending you sunshine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you, I will take your advice and do just that then. I will also go over there and post.

It's so hard knowing that a PA is continuing, and painful to see her afterwards for sure, but I can understand why A would be better than B, at least as long as I can stand it. I will do my best. Hopefully Lost&Found can help me handle some of the situations that come up during the separation. I just don't want to get in the trap of being "a friend" as my WW has a few times indicated that she'd so much love to be "just friends" after a Dv. Just not something I could do.

As for SAA, I ordered it last week, I expect it to arrive in my mailbox tomorrow or Tuesday. I've also been reading HNHN and LB too.

Thanks for the support!

ALS

ASL,

I saw you visited the EN board....I was hoping you would post. Would it be okay if I post for you and ask L&F and maybe losteverything to drop in? I won't if you don't want me to. The board for some reason is not letting me open a new post right now...but hopefully that will change soon enough...I know that others are having trouble too and they are working on it.

Star,

Absolutely, if you can get a post up there, please do. I was also unable to open up a new post there, that's the only reason I didn't post yet!

By the way, check out GQ II for updates on my Plan A situation. I have a few threads in there if you're interested in keeping up. There aren't a lot of folks that visit this area, sadly, so I felt GQ II would be a better place to go with all of this. EN would be great too!

So yeah, feel free, I'd love to hear what they have to say! Make sure you check out my latest posts, too, it's been non-stop eventfulness in my life (things are moving quickly, though not in a very positive way at the moment!)

ALS