Cerri,

You don't know me, but I was reading your rplies to truly_madly under that very busy thread, and they were just so insightful and good, and I was wondering if you might take the time, if you ever have it, to take a look at a thread of mine? I'm a BS and separated from my WW, though still hopeful she might return. She is in her own apartment as of 2 weeks ago (1 month out from D-Day) and the A with OM is active as ever, if not more so.

I have some older threads in my signature, but the more recent stuff is over in Emotional Needs, located here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=013232;p=5#000065

If you'd have any time to read this over and perhaps offer some insight on what I'm doing right or wrong, or even just in general, I'd love that!

Thanks...

ALS

Hey ALS,

Give me a day to read up and get back to you.

And for anyone else looking for me, I've gotten snowed under all of a sudden and don't always see new posts. Feel free to email me with any questions or if you want me to look at a post or thread. info@lifeworks-coaching.net Always happy to contribute some ramblings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Thanks, Cerri, I look forward to it -- But take your time!

ALS

Ok, I took a quick look at EN (NOT my favorite place to play!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

Here are some questions:

How long has the A been going on?

It seems this is a co-worker?

What sorts of things have you done in terms of Plan A?

Does she know how badly she is hurting you? What have you told her? And how?

How long have you been married?

What were the issues before the A? What kinds of things did she complain about?

Do you have children?

Besides this A, to the best of your knowledge is there any other history of infidelity with either of you?

How much work are you willing to do, and are you willing to put a plan to work that goes against what your emotions are telling you?

Is she willing to see you or to spend time together?

Is that enough homework for one night?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Later....

C

Oh, and what on earth is a "modified" Plan A?? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Have you confronted OM?

Have you talked to their boss?

Hey, did anyone see ER last week or the week before where what's his name was confronted by the H of the woman he was sleeping with? That ROCKED!

Ok, I think I'm done.... better get busy before I think up even more questions. Oh, and I see married one year and that it is a co-worker, so you get a freebie on those.

C ..... leaving now, for real.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi Cerri -

All of that info is scatted all over the place, you're right -- So let me bring you up to speed as quickly as possible (if that IS even possible, hehehe...)

The EA started probably close to 2 months ago (maybe more). It was my wife and a co-worker so I'm not sure how long she was flirting with him and interested in him. I knew that the PA started when she was out late one night, VERY unusual for her. I confronted her a week after that (which was around a month ago, towards the end of October) and she admitted kissing OM (lots) on the nights she was out with him that week.

I got upset, did some LBing but even on D-Day, before knowing about MB, offered to take her back if she could leave OM. She could not tell me that so I LBed some more, snooped, read her emails to OM (she was exchanhing them all day from work, AND sending them from our home computer, I had the password) so I continued to get upset and LB. I brought up Dv, I urged her to move out of the house ASAP. After finding MB, I changed my tune. I realized I never WANTED her to leave but her being here and seeing OM so actively was hurting too much. I am sure (again, from reading emails) that A went full blown PA (sexual) the week that she moved out.

She has been out of the house and in her own apartment (signed a 1 year lease and currently furnishing away) for 2 weeks now.

She continues to see OM very actively, A is going strong. So PA has been going on for a month now.

Now, my Plan A has been BAD. Well, first off, I LBed a lot at first. Then before I had the chance to do a good Plan A, she moved out. So I have been doing my best to show her changes when I see her, but that is rare and she is still very cold to me. She only contacts me or comes to the house to get more of her things (she still has a lot here).

We have been married just 1 year, have no children. I am 29, she is 23.

My WW has been depressed a lot of her life, and that I think was the source of where we went wrong. I began to shut her out after her depression got bad, and after a while she stopped talking to me about anything. I was a bad listener. Our relationship was good (known her for over 3 years, lived with her a year before we were married) and just in the past 3 months or so, looking back, I could see the changes. That may be when EA started. She stopped kissing me, wanting to have sex (she admits she did but hated it the last few months), etc. We weren't talking or doing a lot recreationally. I assumed it was just her depression. I NEVER expected an A.

I have asked her indirectly to see a movie or call me if she needs anything. She shows no interest. Since moving out, I believe I am a distant third to her OM and her job. Her coming back also seems even more impossible since she admitted she would have to leave her job to do that, as OM is there and she could not resist.

On D-Day, when she told me about OM kissing her, I got enraged and e-mailed him a very short message. I told him that he knew my wife was married and he kissed her, and he is ruining my M.

What I then realized was that, while he did not shy away, my WW was the aggressor! OM wrote back and told me to take her back. I did just that but of course my interference brought her closer to him, moved her further away from me, the upset BS, and she continued to pursue HIM! I believe at that point, would she have stopped, she may have been able to come back to me. But she made a choice, and that choice was to pursue the OM even harder. That is why I LBed more in the weeks after D-Day.

The reason I call it a modified Plan A is because she is not living with me. I feel like I can barely do anything to Plan A because she shows little interest in seeing me or talking to me. Try as I may, she just doesn't feel that she wants to me M anymore. At least it seems that way. I think part of it is OM, and another is just her youth, and her feeling that she is missing out on things by being married so young.

I am faithful as they come. I am the proverbial nice guy. I have not been in any serious relationships before my W. My WW had long term relationships and a more active sexual past than me. Her relationships NEVER lasted more than 3 years (funny, as we just hit 3 years ourselves).

At this point, I am willing to take her back and work on our M. Even though I am sure the PA has been very active, especially freely out on her own, I can still do that. But she has to want me back, too, and I don't know if she ever will. I do not believe she wants any part of me right now. It would take OM a lot of LBing for that. Years down the line, yes, I do think my WW will miss what we had, but the question is, will she come to terms with that sooner? I do not plan to wait forever.

I did see ER and that was GREAT! I really want to do that though I do believe from my WW's behavior from the email I sent him would do no good. She came to his defense, told me OM is a "good person" and this is HER fault, not his. That I can me mad at her but not at him.

By the way, Cerri, see my sig at the bottom for a summary of all this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway sorry if this reply is all over the place, I am summarizing a lot of feelings and posts from the past month (I'm a wordy sort of guy, but I think it helps get the point across). My WW and I did have some bumps but I always thought our love was strong. Even after all this, when I should still be so angry for what has happened, I still love her and long to hug her and make everything right again.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll have more to say, and if you have any response, I'd love to hear it. My other threads have more detail (linked in my sig and in the first post of this thread) if you want to do some reading, I did get a lot of advice and share a lot of information regarding my Plan A and things that happened.

Thank you Cerri!

ALS

Oh and finally, I guess this is the point I'm at today -- WW is out in her own place, and OM is still in the picture. I assume they spend 4 nights a week together at least (my WW is a fairly needy person when it comes to companionship).

So my question is this -- How can I Plan A, get her to call me, talk to me, or do things with me if she's not interested? How can I test the water of this without seeming pushy? Since D-Day she has not enjoyed her company with me at all, even when I Plan A'ed. She seemed very uncomfortable around me and cold. How do I even get her to give me a chance if she has already decided in her mind that it's over between us?

Thanks.

Morning!!!

Well, I survived a week with H on vacation, and then a weekend with my (divorced for 30 years) parents here, AND sa houseful of guests for T-giving on Sunday. Whew, I need to get back to work just to have a break!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So then, back to what to do with your situation.

I sort of found MB a little late, after finding out about the EA and minor PA (lots of kissing) I confronted my wife, then asked her to stay and work on M. Then she told me she didn’t want to, and EA/PA continued right under my nose (she stayed out late, emailed from our home computers, which I read, etc). Things got more intense. So I LBed even more to the point I urged her to find a new place to live. I couldn’t stand her being here and still having the A.

So what you kind of have going on here is a mixture of Plan A and Plan B. Attempting after finding MB to work on the M, but having told her to get out because it was too painful for you to handle.

Harley once said to a good friend of mine, "A mixture of Plans never really works all that well." (Same thing I'd been telling the same friend for 6 months.... LOL!!)

So, you need to decide which path you're going to take, and then you need to commit to it 110%. If you've read much of my stuff, you know that I'm a big advocate of a short term well defined Plan A, and then a strong move to Plan B. I don't encourage staying in Plan A for more than 6 mmonths for men, and less for women. And I'm never in favor of Plan A as an indefinite lifestyle choice. It wasn't meant as such, and if you read around the boards enough (or work with couples as I do) you'll see that the BS who does that eventually comes to despise the WS and just walks away.

Then I found MB and started Plan A, urged her to stay but it was too late. She couldn’t give up OM. So I have been Plan Aing as much as I can, but with her away and not making any efforts to contact me, it’s very very difficult.

Yeah, unfortunately you found MB after asking her to move out. It would be far easier to do a good Plan A if you and she were in the same house, and she was forced to see you at least once a day.

Still, because she is young and you don't have kids (a BIG issue for keeping women with their husbands) I really think you need to give Plan A a strong shot. Her connection to you in fragile. With kids, it would be more concrete. So you need to show her that you can be the husband she's always wanted. That you are the better choice for her. You need to show her that it's in HER best interests to be married to you.

I’ve seen her in person 2 times in the last 3 weeks since she moved out, talked on the phone twice, and exchanged 3 emails. All contacts have been limited and very short (a few minutes).

Even the most limited contact MUST be pleasant for her. If you can make her smile or laugh it will be an experience she will want to repeat.

So, while I am not ready for Plan B, I do feel like my Plan A, good as I can do when I get the chance to see her, is suffering because she is spending SO much time with OM she has no interest in seeing me or talking to me at all.

Yes, of course it is. And let's be very clear on this. Plan A will NOT restore or repair your marriage. (That's a WH quote for posters who want to argue that point) Plan A is simply a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover.

So, in your Plan A the idea is to show her that you can and will do the things she needs to be happy, and you can and will avoid the things that make her unhappy. You need to pique her interest. Right now in her addiction to OM, she is forgetting that she ever had feelings of love for you, and probably forgetting the good times you had.

It's a common phenomenon that when we are in love we can't imagine not feeling that way about our lover, and when we fall out of love we can't imagine returning to that feeling.... or even that it ever existed.

OM is sleeping at her place many nights a week, and they work together and see each other 5 days a week as well.

Right. And this alone is enough for me to think about Plan B.... except that it's called Plan B because it needs to come after Plan A.... and we haven't done that yet. So you will need to put in a lot of extra effort.



I am willing to put in all the work that’s needed to save my M if my wife is willing as well.

Well, as in all affair instances, she isn't. That's why a good coach will not ask you if you are willing to save your marriage... the obvious answer is, no. But rather simply start in on what needs to be done. Right now, you are going to be the one carrying the entire burden of the work, and probably getting rejected all over the place.

I want to be able to trust her again. I still love her very much. The future scares me, because I know it would be a TON of work, and I do sometimes question if I am willing to do it only out of fear of being alone, not because I want my WW back.

We'll talk about the trust issue when we get to that point. First we need to work on the getting her to spend time with you issue!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Yes, it will be a ton of work, but it's worth it.

But I know I love her and that we could work through this, despite the fact that her A went full-on PA as soon as she moved out (she is a very sexually active person, was with me at the start, so I know the same is going on with OM, verified this through many of her emails when I snooped and read them after she moved out, I’ve since stopped doing that though to save myself the pain). She even offered to have sex with OM without a serious relationship (saw this in one email), she just wanted the sex.

My guess would be that she already had strong feelings for him and that's why she offered to have sex. For the most part women don't just offer to have casual sex unless they think there is something more in it for them. In this case, and possibly with you at the beginning, it is the hope that the relationship will deepen.

Or at least she told him that (though I know her well and she is a very needy person, she needs a man in her life to be happy, she is one of those people who has trouble searching for happiness in herself, instead looking to others to provide it for her.

Hmmmmmm..... well, I would consider that whole thought rather disrespectful. You don't really know what she needs and thinks unless she tells you, and even then it can change without notice.

But more than that, the MB philosophy is based on the concept that as adults we NEED others to be fulfilled. That we all have Emotional Needs that we cannot meet ourselves. So saying that she needs a man in her life to be happy may very well be true, but I can't see why that would be reason to think that she is weak or somehow lacking in something.

The whole idea that we cannot MAKE someone else happy is rather disturbing to me. We would all agree that we can make someone exceptionally UNHAPPY....(as in spouses having A's tends to do to the BS)..... My personal experience, and my thoughts after working with a lot of men and women is that spouses have incredible power to make their partners happy or unhappy.

Also suffers from depression though not diagnosed, I lived with her for 2 years and dealt with it quite a bit).

Harley has said many times that most depression comes from having a lifestyleA that is unfulfilling, painful or offensive. My personal observations bear this out. So, if your W suffers from depression, then it would be a very good idea to examine the things in her life that she finds painful, and the things that she needs to be happy and not getting. Adjust those things and I would be certain the depression would disappear.

I was never unwilling to give SF though I was failing to meet other ENs (conversation and admiration mostly) so I guess that is why it happened.

Exactly. So her lifestyle... or the circumstances that she woke up to every day were such that she was unfulfilled. The depression followed.

When OM came along and met those needs the pleasure triggered by that caused her emotions to create the feeling of love. And basically addiction.

Either that or OM was just more her type, as our relationship is 3 years and marriage only 1 year. So perhaps she just found someone she likes better and that’s that.

Well, I personally don't believe in the "type" mythology. Compatibility is built. It's not something you have like say.... green eyes or curly hair. It's built or destroyed with every choice and every decision you make. (BTW Compatibility is the subject of my Dec eNewsletter which you can get by signing up at www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com)


I have already read HN HN, SAA, and LB all the way through! May read them again. I spend about 2 hours at the MB forums each day reading posts, old and new, and have read all the appropriate articles at the MB site from the Harleys. I’ve spent a LOT of time there.

My suggestion is that you plan your strategy from the books and the articles, and that you come here for support and encouragement for implementing it. Not all posters have a good grasp of the concepts, so you need to go to the source for WHAT to do. Coming here for encouragement is wonderful.

Interestingly enough I spoke with her brother on the phone this weekend. He called because he’d gotten an email from her that just stated she wasn’t living here anymore and she and I were “having problems”. She has not told he brother about the A. Her brother lives with her parents, who also do not know about the A. Her brother told me she gets like this sometimes, and acted like this was nothing new. Told me once she ignored him for 6 months for something trivial. But again, he does not know about A. I did not think it proper to tell him and her parents about the A, feel this would be major LB for her.

Alright, back to the books for you buddy boy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Let's define a LBer... it must fall into one of these categories: Demands, Disrespect, Angry Outburst, Annoying Habits (like chewing loudly or playing with your hair, slouching), Independent Behavior (bowling with the guys, affairs, shopping), Dishonesty. And it must be a habit to be a LBer.

Where does telling her family about the A fall into one of those categories? Many, many posters have the mistaken idea that anything your spouse would not like is a LBer. That's just not the case.

Your spouse may not like hearing that you are unhappy with her shopping habits, but to NOT tell her is being dishonest. Your spouse may be unhappy that you don't want to see the latest chick flick, but to go violates the POJA. So you see, there are all kinds of instances in marriage where you need to do things that might make one or the other of you uncomfortable. The concept of a LBer is that it's a habit which is done at the expense of the other person.

So, the one LBering here is your W. She is having an A. In the interest of saving your M you need to do everything you can to end the A (and for those posters who don't agree, tune into the radio show every Mon and Thurs 1pm CT, you can get to it through the link above). Telling is a HUGE part of ending affairs.

See, affairs exist in a fantasy world outside of the stark realities of life. They don't do well when exposed to the light of day. Harley told one poster that he thinks you should print it in the newspaper when your spouse is having an A. So, TELL her brother, her parents, your friends, their boss, your church family. Let them know that you are hurting, that you want your wife back, and that you will do what it takes to repair and restore your marriage. Ask for their help.

Affairs are addictions. If your wife was doing heroin, you would ask for help from those who love her. This is basically the same.

Will she be upset? Duh. Of course. But you have to think of it as doing all you can to put an end to the destructiuon she is wreaking on your marriage and your lives. Once the A is over you can think about rebuilding. The very first step MUST be ending the A.

Anyway her brother wanted her new phone number so I gave him that. He was very understanding and seemed optimistic about her coming around, but again I don’t think he realizes how bad it is.

So tell him.

Okay, on to her ENs. I think these are the most important:

-- Conversation (she likes to talk, and complained I was not a good listener/empathizer. Claimed OM did this SO well and that I NEVER did.)

Yep, conversation is generally at the top of the list for women. And sadly, husbands commonly tune out. It is the number one reason we have affairs; to have someone to connect with on an intimate level. I would guess this is where the EA started.

Did you know that A's are carried out via phone and email far more than in person? What does that tell you about the power of conversation?

Did you see the conversation homework I gave to MTD? I'd like you to do the same thing. Spend the next couple of days watching Oprah. Take notes on what things she does to engage her guests in good conversation. How does she show that she is interested and participating? How does she draw them out on the subjects they are passionate about? What phrases does she use? What body language? Eye contact? Other things that you notice?

Then talk to me about what you observed, and how you would rate your conversational style in comparision. What do you need to add, change, or avoid? Do you know the topics that your wife is passionate about? Can you list them for me?

With that information, we can make a plan for beginning to meet that need.

-- Affection (she likes hand holding, hugs, snuggling, etc. Hard to do in Plan A, she doesn’t like me to touch her at all now.)

Yep, also pretty predictable. But there are ways to meet that need without physical touch. Cards, flowers, gifts. The physical manifestation of Affection is really an outgrowth of an atmosphere of love and care. Affection needs to run in the background, so to speak, before the actions feel right. So, you need to show that you will care for and protect her before she will allow the touching. Part of that is knowing what she likes, and being gracious about doing it for her. An eCard is one simple suggestion for working on affection.

Make me a list of some non-physical things you can do from a distance, and we'll get together a Plan for working on that need as well.

-- SF (as I stated above, very sexually active and open, though SF tapered off over the past few months as things got worse and I didn’t notice. Again no chance of this in Plan A really, she is bigtime into OM and getting SF from him, all she needs I am sure.)

Well, obviously, you are not going to be allowed to meet this for a while. I still wonder though if it's a real need of hers, or a means to an end of getting things she really needs.

So what about Admiration? Domestic support? Financial support? Openess and Honesty? Recreational Companionship?

I would suspect H/O and Adm for sure. Talk to me about those and what you think would be the specifics of meeting them.

I know you hear this a lot but I am truly not a bad guy.

Uh huh. Right... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I think my WW has some issues with self-esteem (very low) and depression that caused this to happen more than anything I could have done. She was depressed and thought OM could make things better.

No, I disagree. I would suspect that if I could talk to her that she would tell me you were not meeting her MIEN's, and that she felt lonely, abandoned, unfulfilled, and possibly bored.

Does that make it ok to have an A? NO!!! Of course not. But unless she has some rare personlity disorder, the reasons for it were in the lifestyle the two of you created. There was something about it that was painful for her.

I believe for now, he IS making this better but this will not be long term. But she may be one of those people that just needs to change guys every couple years.

Generally speaking, women only do that when their needs are not being met. They are looking for a partner who will do what it takes to make them happy, and avoid doing the things that make them unhappy. Give her that kind of lifestyle and she has no reason to look elsewhere.

You're right though, she might be feeling good about the R now, but it won't last. It's doubtful that he will be willing to meet her needs long term. It's a R based on deceit and betrayal. Hard for that to be a good foundation for the hard work relationships require.

I don’t know. She was apologetic during the month after D-Day before she moved out, we cried a lot together but she never once said she wanted to stay and work on M. One time she said “I’ll kill myself if I stay here.” So I know there are a lot of underlying issues there.

This would have been the time to pump up the Plan A, and to find out what those issues were that made her so unhappy.

She didn't want to commit to working on the M because as I said, once you lose those feelings of love you can't imagine ever restoring it again. It's like a weird memory glitch!

If you want your M back, then you need to look at it as something you'll be the Lone Ranger on for a while. You need to show her that you can and will be there for her, and that you'll do what it takes to change the conditions that made her so unhappy in the first place.

Is it fair? Nope. But then, life rarely is. It is however, the road restoring your M.

I am a good earner, provider…I did all the house chores, cooked, cleaned, paid all the bills, etc. She worked as well (where she met OM) and was able to use all that money to pay off her student loans, etc. I am a nice, caring guy though I do admit we have some differences (6 years in age) and likes (she is really into music, concerts and I was not, though I tried to take her to shows she never had fun, OM is an amateur musician and shares that bond with her).

There's the RC need. Tell me more about that. What kinds of things would she be thrilled to do, and which of those you would find enjoyable as well.

She left Canada to move here to the US with me, and often was depressed because she missed home, now she had the chance to move back home and she stayed because she said she loved her job. I know if OM was not here she likely would have went home. So she never really was depressed about missing home, I guess it was just me – If she missed home that bad, she’d have left me for Canada, not another guy.

Exactly. She left her home because she loved you. And she loved you because you were meeting her needs. When that stopped, then missing her home became an "acceptable" reason for being depressed. The real issue is her unhappiness with her M. It wasn't what she thought it was going to be.



She also insisted she never “cheated” on me. To her cheating was sex. She didn’t start the sex until the day she moved out, which she would deny if I asked but I have stopped asking. She admitted to the EA and all the kissing the nights she was out late (D-Day) but continued that behavior until she moved out even though I knew about it.

Not much use arguing over the definition of the word. She had a relationship with another man that you found offensive and painful. How you feel is not negotiable, what you call the thing she is doing is. Talk about how you feel in response to her behavior, don't get too caught up in the label. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />



Cerri, you are wonderful. Sorry I am so long-worded, let me know if you want me to be shorter next time.

Yeah, you can see that I never have much to say either!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I just have a lot to catch you up on and I want you to have as much information as you can. I hope your painting went well!

Hey! My living room is now the most amazingly rich shade of deep cherry red. Or maybe black cherry is a better word. What a lot of work that was!! The fireplace surround by itself took a whole day to paint!! When the lights are on at night and you are outside, it glows red. LOL You'd never know what my favorite color is!

Alrighty then.... homework time for you. Email me if you post and I don't see it right away. Watch for the eNewsletter, it will be out this week.

C

<small>[ December 02, 2002, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Hi, Cerri! Well you and I both are fond of the lengthy posts I see. Thank you very much for your very precise response to my message. I will do my best to respond the same way, and address your homework questions and some other things! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


So what you kind of have going on here is a mixture of Plan A and Plan B. Attempting after finding MB to work on the M, but having told her to get out because it was too painful for you to handle.

Harley once said to a good friend of mine, "A mixture of Plans never really works all that well." (Same thing I'd been telling the same friend for 6 months.... LOL!!)

So, you need to decide which path you're going to take, and then you need to commit to it 110%. If you've read much of my stuff, you know that I'm a big advocate of a short term well defined Plan A, and then a strong move to Plan B.


Well, the Plan B really isn't what I ever wanted. All of my talking about her leaving after D-Day was in the hopes that it would bring her back to reality and she would stay. Of course, that didn't work and after finding MB I saw exactly why. I realized I couldn't change anything. I do regret that I let her go so easily, though she also wanted to leave the house after D-Day, I just agreed with her when she said she wanted to leave instead of fighting it. As soon as I found MB I realized I was really attempting to Plan A all along, but the A was so in my face that I kept LBing. When I finally found MB I was able to stop that with some help and suggestions, but it was too late. My WW had already decided to leave. I have already decided to and been in Plan A since before my WW moved out, however after my repeated attempts to contact her or spend time with her have been met with little to no response, I decided I had to stop pursuing and just let her come to me, if she wants to. But of course I'd love any suggestions on how to give myself more opportunites to Plan A without seeming like I'm being pushy. Even e-mails I've sent to her don't seem to be very much appreciated.


So you need to show her that you can be the husband she's always wanted. That you are the better choice for her. You need to show her that it's in HER best interests to be married to you.


I know I can be the husband she's always wanted, I really do. But I just don't know how I can show her this or convince her this when she is willing to give me such little time.


Even the most limited contact MUST be pleasant for her. If you can make her smile or laugh it will be an experience she will want to repeat.


That is great advice. I will remember that for sure!


Right now in her addiction to OM, she is forgetting that she ever had feelings of love for you, and probably forgetting the good times you had. It's a common phenomenon that when we are in love we can't imagine not feeling that way about our lover, and when we fall out of love we can't imagine returning to that feeling.... or even that it ever existed.


I do like to think that's true, that the addiction has her forgetting how much she used to love me, but I sometimes wonder if she just chose me because I was the best option at the time. To have such a short marriage has me second guessing if she ever really meant it when she committed to me. I don't think she ever took the idea of a marriage seriously. Since she was from out of the country, we did elope to get married and maybe jumped the gun, though she never said she had doubts and I never did (still don't). But after D-Day, she told me she never wanted to be married to anyone. That made me wonder if the only reason she got married was because until then, she wasn't able to work in the US. Please don't get me wrong though, I did NOT marry her for any of these reasons, I married my WW becuase I loved her and wanted to spend my life with her.

You're right though, if only there was a way she could believe that feeling could come back. After D-Day, she told me that months before the A, she lost the "spark" for me. She said she was no longer sexually attracted to me. She said she was still phyiscally attracted to me, just not emotionally. She said she still felt a little spark when we held hands or hugged, but that was it. I guess at that point, unbeknownst to me, I was either not meeting enough of her ENs or the OM was starting to show interest in her and his attention was helping her to lose interest in me.


My guess would be that she already had strong feelings for him and that's why she offered to have sex. For the most part women don't just offer to have casual sex unless they think there is something more in it for them. In this case, and possibly with you at the beginning, it is the hope that the relationship will deepen.


I agree with you there for sure. She did tell me openly after D-Day that she was going to pursue casual sex but not a serious relationship when she moved out. However, I snooped and read some of her mail after the fact, and that's when I read what she told him about sex. She was pressuring him a bit, telling him to reassure her that he'd be there for her. She told him she didn't need a relationship, but she obviously wanted just that, or she told him she was going to move back home to her parents. I know my WW pretty well, and I know that she would have not stayed in this area if it were not for OM. I have since stopped reading her email, as it hurt too much, stopped weeks ago, but last I read, the PA was still going strong and they were growing closer and closer as a result of all their new time together.


Hmmmmmm..... well, I would consider that whole thought rather disrespectful. You don't really know what she needs and thinks unless she tells you, and even then it can change without notice.


I am sorry it came off as disrespectful. I only said that my WW is needy is because she as much as admitted this to me throughout our relationship. After D-Day, she told me that she married me because she thought I could make her happy. She said that she wasn't happy, so she was going to look for that happiness elsewhere. She admitted that she needed someone else to make her happy because she couldn't make herself happy. She admitted this to me. Later, she told me that she was going to just try and learn how to take care of herself and make herself happy, however I don't consider starting a full PA and constant contact with a new man working on yourself. I call that moving from one guy right on to the next without missing a beat. And again, to me that looks like she NEEDS someone to make her happy.

When we started dating, I know I made her incredibly happy. There were more happy times than sad times. But as the years went on, sadness took over happiness. She was depressed all the time even though I was doing all I could. I sent her flowers to work, bought her cards, talked to her on the phone twice a day from work, spent every ounce of my free time with her, did every chore at the house so she had nothing to do (not even cook dinner) when she came home, took her on vacations and weekend trips, etc. I thought I was doing all that I could. I realize now there was even more I could have done (more conversation, affection, admiration) though I do wonder if that would have changed anything. There were times in our relationship, even days when everything was going SO well and I was meeting ALL those needs, that she would still suddenly be depressed.

I am sure OM will see this side of her eventually as well. I'm not sure how that will work. I sometimes wonder if my WW is a 2-3 year relationship person. She admitted to me after D-Day her last 2 relationships were long term but she broke them BOTH off after 2 or 3 years. Maybe she just can not commit or just gets bored of someone after that amount of time.


Harley has said many times that most depression comes from having a lifestyle that is unfulfilling, painful or offensive. My personal observations bear this out. So, if your W suffers from depression, then it would be a very good idea to examine the things in her life that she finds painful, and the things that she needs to be happy and not getting. Adjust those things and I would be certain the depression would disappear.


I mentioned a few times when she was just getting depressed all the time what I could do to help. I was not the best listener or empathizer, I was making the mistake of trying to be the problem solver. I have never experienced a person who just suffers from depression before, so I handled it badly. After a while, I stopped trying to help and she shut me out. I asked her a couple of times to see a doctor about her depression or suggested she may want to medicate, and that made her very, very upset. In one of our post D-Day discussions, she told me I may have been right about her depression and she may need medication. I have no idea if she is seeking that out now or not. I doubt it though and I don't want to ask.


Well, I personally don't believe in the "type" mythology. Compatibility is built. It's not something you have like say.... green eyes or curly hair. It's built or destroyed with every choice and every decision you make.


Well I do think that people who share similar interests at least have an easier time getting to know each other and it helps to jump start things and start an addiction. WW and OM share the interest of music and bands, and that is something she never got from me. I tried to listen to music she liked, took her to concerts, but she admitted after D-Day that she never enjoyed doing any of that with me, she just didn't feel that bond with me when it came to that interest. Now, I do realize that a long term relationship has a lot more important things that need to be built aside from mutual interests, and I do believe I can do well in that arena. At 23, however, my WW may just want to spend the next years just living the single life and not worry about any commitments until further down the road. Do I think in 10 years she'll regret not staying with me if she doesn't come back? I think so. I think when she's done with her partying and maturing, and ready to settle down, she will have a hard time finding another "me". I know that sounds selfish, but I truly believe I am a good person, and could make an excellent husband.


See, affairs exist in a fantasy world outside of the stark realities of life. They don't do well when exposed to the light of day. Harley told one poster that he thinks you should print it in the newspaper when your spouse is having an A. So, TELL her brother, her parents, your friends, their boss, your church family. Let them know that you are hurting, that you want your wife back, and that you will do what it takes to repair and restore your marriage. Ask for their help.


Well, this is the tough one -- I actually got some emails from MIL this weekend and I wrestled with that very option. Should I tell MIL about WW's A or not? I started a topic over in EN's, I know you don't like to hang there but you may want to check it out. Here's the link (you can see emails from my MIL there too):

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=013408

In short, I was told to NOT tell the MIL about the A, as it was not my business to tell, it was my WW's. Now, I can see what you are saying about getting it out in the open. HOWEVER, my MIL would not confront my WW about the A, anyway. She could keep it to herself. She does not even want my WW to know she and I are talking. My WW's parents have always given her all the freedom she wants and stayed out of her business. They do not feel that they have any right to tell her what to do. Now, the good news is that in these emails I was at least able to tell the MIL that I wanted my WW back, and that I still loved her. It was a great weight lifted from me to at least tell her MIL that and see that she still wanted us to be together and was praying for that to happen. It doesn't really help my case as she will NOT try to change my WW's mind at all, or even ask her any questions about it (nor will my WW tell them, she will likely NEVER tell them about the A...To them, OM will just be a new boyfriend for her if we get a Dv).

But for some reason, I just feel better. The only people in my WW's life now, aside from me, are OM and her family. OM's friends I guess, as well, as OM is part of her new circle of friends at work, all who do know she is married but did not try and stop her. Now I know she lied to OM and her new friends about me, making me out to be a horrible tyrant in order to justify why she left. I read emails where she lied to OM about my actions to make me sound horrible to get sympathy. But I don't even care about that, I don't know those people or care what they think of me. Her family, however, I know and like very much, and I DID care about what they were told. So I felt SO much better after at least telling them that it was not me that ended our relationship. I wish my WW would tell them about the A, but I don't think she will. And I don't see what good telling them will do me now, as they will refuse to bring it up to my WW.

Also, I think after betraying her that much, by trying to set her family against her, it will be a HUGE LB and she will definitely not want me back.

Okay, let's talk about EN's. Is this long enough yet? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Yep, conversation is generally at the top of the list for women. And sadly, husbands commonly tune out. It is the number one reason we have affairs; to have someone to connect with on an intimate level. I would guess this is where the EA started.


Yep, I failed here. I was not talking to my WW enough. Instead of her trying to talk about that problem with me though, she just started talking to OM. I blame myself for the part I played in letting that happen, but I still blame her for having the A. She and OM exchanged and continue to exchange emails all day long via their PCs at work.

I'll watch Oprah and see what I can learn about conversations. I've already learned so much that I did wrong as far as listening and emapthizing with my WW. I have more to learn but I am going to be a great conversationalist! I will get back to you on the rest of that homework after I watch the Oprah. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Make me a list of some non-physical things you can do from a distance, and we'll get together a Plan for working on that need as well.


Okay, this is from the affection EN. She needs that a lot, yes. This one baffles me, because right up til D-Day, I constantly showed my WW with hugs, back rubs, hand holding, cards, flowers, you name it. I didn't notice, though, but she had stopped kissing me very passionately in the months leading up to D-Day. She then told me it was because she was no longer feeling emotionally close to me so she shut me out.

As for things I can do for her from afar, that's tough -- I need to figure out where to draw the line without coming off as looking needy, like a stalker, or someone who just won't get the message to go away. She's in so many words over and over again told me our marriage is over, she has no hope for us, and she doesn't want to come back. Since she moved out, I have invited her to a movie, invited her to the house (she has only come over to pick up her things, still has a lot of things at the house to pick up), sent her a few emails and an e-card. I plan to buy her a little Christmas ornament as a gift, we used to do that as a tradition every year. I would love to go out with her even just one night a week, whether it's to dinner, a movie, or to talk, anything, but she doesn't want to. I think she feels that she would be cheating on OM to go on dates with me. He is her #1 right now.


So what about Admiration? Domestic support? Financial support? Openess and Honesty? Recreational Companionship?


Admiration -- She needs that I'm sure. All I can think of there is to tell her I am proud of her for doing well on her own, and tell he that she looks nice when I see her. Can't think of much else I can do without again becoming very overbearing with it.

Support -- I have always provided this for her but I guess she needs it. I offered her money recently and she refused, said "I don't want your money". She is having car trouble and I offered repairs. She is even looking into paying her own car insurance now and getting off our joint policy. She refuses and wants nothing from me financially right now.

O&H -- I have always given this to her and hope to continue to do so. I used to have to mask this because I was miserable when she first moved out. I cried a lot. I don't cry anymore. I am working on me and feeling better. I am learning and doing things I enjoy. I am remembering how to live the single life. I still miss her and I would love for her to come home but I don't feel as horrible as I did when this all started. So, I guess as far as honesty and openness goes, I should just convey to her these feelings? That I would still love for her to come home, but I am fine and I can understand that if she is happier without me, she can continue to do what she wants?

Recreational -- This is tough. I am realizing now that I may not have met this one too well. I did my best but every time in our marriage/relationship I asked her what she wanted to do, I got "I don't know." She was one of those people that expected me to come up with each and every plan. She rarely suggested anything at all. But then if I picked something she didn't want to do, she got upset with me. We did this most weekends. Sometimes it worked, sometimes not. But she rarely just told me what she wanted to do. I know she likes concerts but she knows I didn't like them too much. I was still willing to go with her but she didn't like that idea -- Like I said earlier she didn't have fun because she thought I wasn't having fun. Sure, I wasn't having as much fun as her but I enjoyed making her happy. She did things with me that she may not have loved either, but I didn't let that ruin my fun. So, that is a BIG hurdle -- She never told me what she wanted to do as far as recreation goes, and assumed that I didn't want to do anything that she wanted.

Right now, I dunno -- I'd take her anywhere or do anything she wanted. I offered to take her to a movie but I don't even know if she wants to do THAT with me. We used to love going out to dinner. I'd do that for her now too. Again though, she seems to not want to do any of this with me. I can only ask so many times with her not answering me or just acting like I never asked before I just have to give up.


No, I disagree. I would suspect that if I could talk to her that she would tell me you were not meeting her MIEN's, and that she felt lonely, abandoned, unfulfilled, and possibly bored.

Does that make it ok to have an A? NO!!! Of course not. But unless she has some rare personlity disorder, the reasons for it were in the lifestyle the two of you created. There was something about it that was painful for her.


She suffered from emotional breakdowns before we were dating, and in the past had counseling that she said was a horrible experience and never worked. She admitted having issues with depression and emotional problems as long as she has known me. I loved her despite all this. I thought I could make her happy anyway but obviously her issues were too much. So she went looking elsewhere. I realize that marriage can always be worked on to be made better, but our M was not HORRIBLE - Sure, we did watch TV and movies at home during the week, but I always tried to set up weekend activities for us and to keep things from getting boring. Throughout our relationship, we had a lot of nights where she would just stay awake all night and cry, or threaten suicide a few times (never attempted)...And being just a regular guy, not a doctor or someone who can understand what causes these things, I guess I didn't handle all that well enough.


You're right though, she might be feeling good about the R now, but it won't last. It's doubtful that he will be willing to meet her needs long term. It's a R based on deceit and betrayal. Hard for that to be a good foundation for the hard work relationships require.


I am almost positive this will happen as well. At that point, though, I don't know if she'll try and go single, or move on to another new guy, or just move home to her parents. The question is will she even WANT to come back to me, and, even more importantly, by the time this happens, will I WANT her back anymore?


If you want your M back, then you need to look at it as something you'll be the Lone Ranger on for a while. You need to show her that you can and will be there for her, and that you'll do what it takes to change the conditions that made her so unhappy in the first place.


I have accepted this as necessary. I did do my best to talk to my WW after D-Day and try and fix things, or at least see what went wrong, but we just kept going in the same circles and got nowhere. I was looking for an immediate fix. Or, even worse, after we had a GREAT night together, she'd be right back on the computer to email OM or driving out to see OM. No matter how good my Plan A was after D-Day while she was at home, she went right back to OM every time. It was killing my love bank.

Alright, that's long enough for now! Look forward to hearing back from you again, and thank you so much for taking the time to address all of this. You have been incredibly helpful.

ALS

<small>[ December 02, 2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: ALostSoul ]</small>

Well Cerri, bit of a depressing morning here, so I am here to vent.

I snooped again -- I know it NEVER makes me feel better, but I was compelled to do so, just to see my WW's state of mind because I hardly talk to her anymore. Now, I only checked her one email account, NOT the one she uses to talk to OM through, that one I'm sure would make me sick so I stay away from it completely. This one she uses for everything else.

Anyway, she spoke with her old childhood friend this weekend, another guy that she has been friends with for a long time. He lives in another country now, but they grew up together. Like OM, she and he share the "music" common interest, bands, concerts and the like. Again, this I think was one of the biggest reasons WW left me, that we lacked this common interest (mine is more movies and home theater to her music/concerts, which OM also loves).

So, he sent her a mail I guess summarizing their phone conversation and it made me pretty upset. In it, I learned that she did indeed tell him about OM, quite enthusiastically I'd say (he replied by telling her he was so happy she was with him and that he was glad that OM was more like him, as he knows that's what she likes). I also learned she referred to me as "corporate boy" and complained I acted like that as well. This is a new one to me. Never once did I get that complaint from her. Yes, I do work for a big company, I'm a professional, I don't wear a suit to work, I just do web design. But I'm not sure what the "corporate" thing means, unless that's more just a generalization for someone who doesn't go out and smoke, drink, and party every weekend. I know that's what OM does, and ironically, I did my share of weekend partying myself, but settled down when I met my wife, because she wanted to spend time with me and not a big group of my friends.

Speaking of the smoking thing, that gets me the most about OM -- He is a regular smoker, and WW grew up around parents who smoked, so always told me how much she hated it, said she NEVER wanted me to smoke. We always sat in non-smoking sections and complained when we got smoke in our faces in public. Yet OM is a smoker!!! Unreal.

Oh, furthermore, I NEVER work long hours (I work a shorter day than her) and I certainly don't think I'm an uptight person or otherwise. No, I don't smoke or use drugs or party that much anymore. I drink occasionally, socially. I've always been a gentleman all my life, opening the car door for her, sending flowers, cards, polite manners, etc. Is it possible that she's in the "bad boy" stage and just wants a different type of guy than me right now? I guess I was boring to her.

Now, the second point I noticed in her friend's email to her was that she complained about one of my hobbies - Home theater. I have always loved movies all my life and I guess that became overwhelming for my WW. I bought a big screen TV and I continue to buy DVDs for my collection. It's a hobby, and I guess my WW really resented it. We did stay home and watch a LOT of movies. She complained about it sometimes but I didn't know what to do about it. It wasn't like I didn't spend money on her as well, I bought her plenty of gifts, flowers, took her out to dinner, etc. But we did also spend a lot of time in front of the TV for lack of other things to do. If she'd have ever asked to go anywhere though, I'd drop everything to take her.

So her friend said something to the effect of "I'm glad you realize that there is more to life that big screen TVs and DVD collections". So that was another complaint she had of me. This one didn't surprise me so much as the "corporate boy" comment, but it hurt as well. I would have given that all up in a second if my WW had asked me to. But we never really had a serious talk about it, at least, I never realized how serious it was until it was too late.

Finally, she told him she "wasted" the last 3 years of her life. WASTED. As if none of it was worth it. That stabs me in the heart. Her friend was consoling her, telling her if it wasn't for her coming here, she never would have met OM. That's just awful. I do lament the fact that my marriage seems to be ending, but I look back on all the happy times my W and I had, and I don't regret that part. I'd never say the last 3 years of my life were a WASTE. I can't believe she'd say that.

So, I guess I'm starting to wonder if what my WW said after D-Day wasn't true. She said that even if it wasn't for OM, she wasn't happy and wanted to leave me anyway. She also told me she never expected a long-term thing with OM, but he made her happy for now. Even if OM and her break up, she doesn't want me back. Perhaps she really meant that. I mean, so far her actions and words to others have definitely indicated that I am just NOT her type. I feel like I was the best thing at the time but she's now realizing that she wants someone who is just different than me as far as personality and interests go. I guess I'm thinking, especially since our relationship and marriage has been so short, that maybe she never took us seriously and was just coasting until something better came along.

What do I do now? I don't know if my WW's issues with me are things that I can really show differently during a plan A. I can't become a completely different person and it seems she complains about everything that makes me, well, ME. I have a certain personality and certain interests in life that, while I can make SOME changes to, I can't change completely. I am wondering now if it wouldn't be better to, like she's doing, just search for someone that shares interests with me, or, at the very least, is willing to compromise and spend equal time doing things we enjoy together.

So, anyway, I'm not sure how much she told her friend about the A, if she gave him the full details about the secrecy at first and all, but it's obvious she told him on Saturday that she was dead-set on OM, and talked me down enough to make me feel like she's certainly planning to go through with an eventual Dv with me, even though we never talk about that. His email to her was very pro-OM, and anti-ME. There is no waffling or fence sitting going on from all I have seen. No indication at all that she wants me back, and she's digging the hole deeper by telling everyone how horrible I am and how great OM is. Except her family, of course, who still knows NOTHING about OM or A.

So, I guess today I'm wondering if I want to even keep trying. I can certainly meet my WW's EN's better than ever, and love her with all of my heart, but that may not be enough. I can't completely change my personality for her. I'm not an all-weekend, every weekend party guy, and yes, I do enjoy watching movies on my home theater. Can we compromise that? Sure. I'd be MORE than willing to give equal time to what she likes and what I like. But I don't get the impression she even wants that. I think she wants FULL time on what she wants right now, and her solution to that was just finding the man that was the closest match to that for her.

So, feeling pretty down today. It hurts to see what she told her best friend about me, because it gives me the indication that she has no intention of coming back to me. It paints a picture of her being very happy with OM, very unhappy with everything about me. Now what?

ALS

By the way, HAPPY BIRTHDAY CERRI!!! I just learned about your special day today over at EN. Hope you have/had a great day!!!

ALS

Cerri,

Please check out this new thread of mine in GQ II if you have time as well. It's a letter I wrote but did not send to my WW. I was just wondering if now would be a good time to send it in your opinion.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=021531#000003

Hey there mister chatty. I don't mean to keep putting you off. My newsletter (which you will be getting shortly) takes a heck of a lot of time and energy.

Here's a few thoughts for now.

Yes, she will be upset if you tell her family etc. However, it still remains that doing so is not a LBer. (Regardless of what you hear at EN, really I suggest you tune into Marriage Talk radio to get it straight from the horses mouth, so to speak)

You don't know for certain how her parents will react. Although it seems that they have done a poor job of instilling responsibility by exacting consequences, this issue may strike a chord you never imagined.

The same is true for her supervisor at work. Many workplaces have fairly strong policies against such things, particularly when it involves adultery.

The other thing you want to consider in this whole idea of telling, is that it may be quite a deterrent to HIM. Having an affair with a married woman is even in this day and age looked on with something less than sympathy.

The idea is that affairs do not do well when the real world intrudes. When they must contend with the opinions and questions from the rest of the world, when all the hassles of daily life start to take over the fantasy world.

It is a painful step, I agree. But I compare it to the pain of confronting a disease, until you do so, there is no way to effect a cure.

Now, what about the fact that she doesn't seem to want to see you? Have you come up with some ideas for meeting some needs at a distance?

Admiration, affection, and conversation are big ones. Also, are you supporting her? Hmmmmmmm.... we should think about that.

As I said earlier every encounter you have with her needs to go on the positive side of the ledger. Make it pleasant, make it wonderful.

It's a long slow and difficult process. I know you can do it.

Absence will indeed make her forget. So you and I will need to devise a plan to keep you in the forefront. And that will need to be in a way that shows her that you care about her.

Along with the other homework I gave you I'd like you to write a Plan A letter. This is a letter that tells her that you love her, you married her for life, you want to stay married to her, and that you recognize these ________ are the things you neglected to do to make her happy, and that these________ are the things you did which hurt her. Tell her that you are willing and capable of doing what it takes to be the husband she always dreamed of.

Email or post that letter for me to look at before you send it.

Ok, sorry this is so short. I know you had a lot more stuff, and I promise I'll get back to you!

Now, I gotta go buy pizzas for my kids, shirt and shoes for the 11yo to wear at his band concert tomorrow, and be ready for a moon ritual in 6 hours!!! Oh, and send out the newsletter. Just call me insane superchick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

C

Double post, what a dweeb! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> see the next page.

<small>[ December 04, 2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Read your letter at GQII, It's really good. There are a few changes I think need to be made.

Can you hang on a day? I can talk about it in the morning.

Hi Cerri!

Cerri, I can't imagine how busy you must be. I appreciate your taking time out to read my incredibly wordy posts and into my situation.

I noticed you mentioned a Plan A letter. I actually gave my WW a letter in person before she left. It made her cry and she hugged me. Now I also realized that it wasn't the best Plan A letter it could be. Hence, the NEW letter that you read. I would LOVE to hear your suggestions on the letter, so if you want to address that tomorrow sometime, that'd be great, as I'd like to send it to my WW tomorrow afternoon, so she'll hopefully get it before she leaves work. I can work fast as far as revisions go. I just want it to be as perfect as possible.

So if you have time, let's just talk about that letter first, then we can come back to my earlier posts and I'll talk to you some more about the issues with telling her parents, boss, and the like.

Catch ya later, insane superchick. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ALS

Sorry to intrude on your thread ALS (HI CERRI <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). I've been lurking on your thread for a while but didn't interrupt. Just wanted to say what great advice your getting (as if you didn't know). I was curiouse, have let the cat out of the bag about the A yet? I know it's a hard thing to do, but Cerri is absolutely correct. The only regret I have about it is not doing it sooner. Also, the same goes for confronting the OM, (OM's in my case). They are not quite as audaciouse when they actually SEE the angry H on the other side. I've found it helps if you froth at the mouth while you scream at him (JK). Good luck. If you and Cerri don't mind I'll keep poking in to see how you're doing. BTW Cerri, I'm sorry I'm late about an update on the cd thing. Still kind of working on it. Not as easy as I thought it was going to be.

Madly,

Hi! No problem at all, welcome to the thread, feel free to chime in ANYTIME!

On D-Day, since I already had the OM's e-mail address, the first thing I did was to e-mail him and very briefly (a sentence or two) tell him I wanted to work on my marriage and to back off. I have never seen him in person. My doing this ENRAGED my WW and she told me it was not HIS fault, it caused him to feel bad, go to her and she consoled him. My conforting OM did not work at ALL. I know he didn't see me, but even the email was enough for her to tell me I had NO RIGHT to do that. She got incredibly upset with me, and told me he was innocent. She was pursuing him, you see, and she said I could be mad at her all I wanted, but not to take it out on him. So in that case, I don't think confronting worked for me.

Now, as for telling, no, I have not told her family yet. I am still questioning what telling her family will do to benefit things. Her parents are very meek, they are nice people but my WW basically told THEM the story all her life, she did what she pleased and didn't care what her family said. So, they have no interest in interfering and don't want to confront her with anything. They talk to me now and say how much they want us to get back together, but they also tell me they're afraid to tell her that. They will talk to her but they won't even suggest she come back to me. Even if they did, she wouldn't listen. She may even rebel against them. So, even if I told them about the A, I know they would refuse to confront her about it. They'd know, but I don't think it would change anything at home. And I am sure that if my WW knew I went behind her back and told her family about what happened, she WOULD be upset with me. I dunno if it would be an LB, but I sure don't think it would make her feel warm and friendly towards me. I feel it would drive us even further apart. She HATES me interfering with her life.

So anyway, looking forward to Cerri's advice. I'm working on my new Plan A letter now, got some great suggestions for edits, and I have a new version I'm planning to send tomorrow. I'm gonna wait and see what Cerri says tomorrow morning though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ALS

ok, 10 seconds while I'm waiting for another page to load (doesn't everyone have 3 browsers going all the time???)

Hi MTD.... and ahem..... just what is the problem with the cd issue? Talk to me about what you're struggling with. We can figure out where to go!

Now, ALS (does anyone else think of Lou Gehrig or am I just waaay old now?) you only know what your wife is telling you about OM's motives, actions, etc. And at this point she is definitely not the most reliably accurate source!

From what you say, it sounds to me as if he was pretty upset hearing from a husband that was interested in keeping his marriage together. That's exactly what you want. Pour on the guilt!! Pour on the you slime of the earth.... ok, well not quite that bad.

The whole goal right now is to end the A. And you are not going to do that by sitting back and waiting.

Tonight while I am happily at my moon ritual how about if you take out SAA and read chapters 4 and 5. Tomorrow let's talk about those issues more.

Ok, outta time, got a kid with b-ball jersey and shoes breathing down my neck!!

Later,

C