I haven't read the whole book, just looked through it in the bookstore. Today I was looking at Dr. Harley's Q&A Column and saw advice he was giving a woman about Plan B. He said that if the H does choose the lover over the wife, it will be harder on him than on the wife in the end. Is he saying that the divorce process is harder on the H or that the H will regret it? I have not seen any of his views on how the betrayers are affected by all this. Can anyone clear this up for me?<P>Thanks<BR>AD

I'd like to know the answer to that very question....considering my H did choose his OW over me.

While I'm the one left behind with all the responsibilities, I do concur with Harley's opinion that it is harder on the betrayer. Here's why.<P>The betrayer is publicly humiliated by the affair. Once people know of it, they lose respect forever.<P>Initially, the inlove feelings carry them over the guilt. But when the obsessional love fades, the guilt is overwhelming. And knowing how they hurt others, including children, gets to eat at them forever. We betrayed don't have to live with guilt. Those of us who have given it our full effort, get to leave with a totally clear conscience.<P>Betrayers generally lose the joint friends and much of the family. To this day, I continue to have great relationships with my husband's biological family, better than he does. When they visit, they often stay with me and don't see him. He has NO RELATIONSHIP now with any of my family members or any formerly joint friends, all of which are now my exclusive friends. He won't talk to any of them honestly, so all the relationships are very superficial. Being an exposed betrayer is very isolating.<P>When the children find out that they've been left for an OP, they don't generally look on it kindly. There WILL BE a high price to pay in these relationships, forever.<P>So, when the inlove compulsion fades, there is no obscuring the damage. They get to live with it FOREVER. Without the offsetting obsession, it's a horrible life. I really believe this is mostly the case.<P>In my own life, I know of two cases where infidels busted up their own families and married each other. These relationships are surrounded by destruction. One of them is a cousin of mine. Out of six kids between the two infidels, one committed suicide and three will have nothing to do with either infidel. The one grandchild has nothing to do with them either. This is after 25 wacky years of marriage. They're constantly at each other's throats. They alienate so many people that they need to keep moving every 2 - 3 years. Most people in the family avoid them.<P>The other case involves people at my office. After about six years of infidelity, they finally got married. Since they live on opposite coasts from the previous spouses, the wife had to give up custody of her son. I don't consider it lucky to see your kid only at long school holidays and during the summer. Everyone knows about it too and looks at them with scorn. Who would want to live their life that way? I think their spouses are better off.<P>I completely agree with Harley on this point. I view my husband as the much bigger loser in our fiasco. He has no relationship with our daughter at all and very limited with our son. He's lost virtually all friends and family. When his parents look at him, he sees and feels their disappointment and disgust, so he stays away. He lives in an awful one bedroom apartment while I live in the dream house. He's gained about 50 pounds and looks miserable, even though he says he's happier now. He hasn't taken a day of vacation in a year and a half. I have everyone's support, love and respect and tons of friends to do things with.<P>And I'm the one who was left. Who would you rather be?

I don't agree, atleast not in our situation. His affair is a big secret and he is determined to keep it that way. He insinuates that I am just incapable of loving and forgiving anyone. <P>If the marriage fails he has made it clear that I will the blame.<P>He doesn't feel remorse or shame, or atleast he doesn't show it. He speaks of the pain of divorce only in the context of the expense and unfairness of childsupport since he doesn't want the marraige to end and I am heartless enought to want it to end.<P>If this had been in anyway hard for him (except for having to give up his "attractive" woman) maybe it wouldn't be so hard on me.

<B>Devastated</B>...<P>You stole my thunder... excellent.<P>Otherwise... again...<P>A bottom line response is that... <B>it doesn't even matter</B> about the wayward. What is important is by <B>building yourself during Plan B</B>... in the end... you will have the better chance with <B>any</B> relationship you have in the future (marital, social, or whatever)! Most likely you will have built-up your own self-esteem and a much closer relationship with God.<P>This can best happen with a good support group (not alone)... and guess where <B>I</B> recommend people go (or as the answer follows... <B>come</B>)... <P><B>Essyboo</B>...<BR>Don't take the blame... It is not your fault!<BR>Build yourself!!! If you don't take the time to change in all of Plan A, and Plan B, and recovery... then... yes take on the blame...<BR><B>But</B>... we are here for recommendations and the moral support that "lost" wayward will <B>never... ever</B> have!!! The hardness of what he does wrong will take time to hit him... fantasies can last a while... but in time they will crash...<BR>It is hard to wait for this... some of us can't... and we let (or are forced to have) the divorce happen... the crash will still occur!<P>Jim<p>[This message has been edited by NSR (edited December 30, 1999).]

Distressed,<P>Thank you for your reply. I know in my head that I am better off than he is. Right now its just hard to see it, since I am the one with all the responsibility and he gets to play. My ex has also gained a lot of weight and I don't think he is happy. I can't imagine living with the guilt. In his case, I don't think it has fully hit, he is still involved with the OW. What I don't understand is why don't they try to fix things while they still can. One counselor told me, concerning the guilt, that people learn to live with it. <P>AD

In my H's case, public humiliation is not an issue - he has just kept his affair a secret. He can just lie and say that he left because we "didn't get along" and claim that he started dating her after he left. Yes, he has given up his few mutual friends, but I don't think he cares. Some of my friends have been supportive - others act like infidelity is contagious. The kids and I have the house - such as it is. He lives in her condo - a much nicer place, complete with amenities he has always wanted like central air conditioning. His father accepts him and the OW, as far as I know without criticism. The state guidelines for child support leave him better off financially than before, and his kids and me far worse off. Yes, he has lost the love of his two oldest - but he is apparently oblivious to the older one's anger, because she still talks to him. He gets to see the youngest four whenever he wants, but only when it is convenient for him. He recently got back from a vacation to somewhere we had talked about taking the kids for years. Does he have to worry about his conscience bothering him? - only if and when he develops one.

Nellie,<P>I think most people will see, since you are not divorced yet, that he was involved with the OW and that caused all the problems. When I hear of anyone leaving their family now, I assume their is a 3rd party, and so far I've always been right. As for conscience, even if he is unhappy, he would die before he let you know it. However, unless he is a robot, he HAS to have guilt. I have seen you post about his withdrawal at the OW's, I think he just doesn't want to deal with it. Since he has been a good parent until now, I can't believe with 6 kids he doesn't feel guilt. He just will not let you see it. My ex-inlaws have completely supported my H, also, but he still doesn't tell them much and they have yet to meet the OW. I know deep down he is ashamed of this, but I think they have to hit rock bottom before we will ever know it.<P>AD

I also know that my H feels guilt about his decision to leave and move in with another woman. He hasn't told his mother yet. I told her. And when he leaves our house, the kids hug him and he cries. My oldest son wouldn't hug him the first day he was here to visit. That made my H cry and the next day my son did hug him and that made him cry. Even if he doesn't feel bad about hurting me (I don't know if he does)At least he feels bad about hurting the kids. I know he has a heart and that's what I'm counting on.

I would like to believe that the betrayed will come out ahead in the long run.Here's why:the betrayer bailed out of the marriage just to jump into another relationship that probably won't last.They're on a self-esteem high,and what goes up must come down.The relationship was based on lies and deception.Plus they have all the guilt that they will have to live with.They know what they did was just plain wrong.The betrayed,on the other hand,after hitting rock-bottom,has nowhere to go but up.They probably aren't going to jump into another relationship for a long,long time(if there's a divorce).And when they do get into another relationship,it's going to be a slow,cautious,perhaps painful process.Hopefully it won't be based on infatuation and lust.It'll be a real relationship that can probably last.Anyway,that is what I'd like to believe.<BR> Nellie,the one smart thing I did after my W told me of her affair(I couldn't think straight at the time)was to threaten her.She wasn't going to tell her family about it,but probably just blame me for splitting up.I told her she had to tell them,or I would.I guess she decided it was better if she told them,perhaps downplaying it a little.Of course,this was only after trashing me for a couple days first.But irregardless,they know about it,and that is something she can't lie about later.I also have proof that she was calling OM on our phone.Don't you have anything to prove your H was having an affair when he was with you?Of course,they told all the relatives that we"grew apart".How many marriages have you seen break up because they"grew apart"?I can't think of any.Hang in there,Nel. --Murph

Yeah, Distressed hopped on it first.<P>I am the betrayed in this round. What goes around comes around. I was the problem and not the solution.<P>I was the betrayer in my first marriage and I will never ever live that down. I will take that to my grave. The pain and suffering that I imposed on my then W and children will haunt me forever. I have no excuse. I could give you many reasons for my actions, but, it's not worth the computer screen that you are reading this on.<P>Sorry, I'm babbling like a brook.<P>Losing what little mind I have left.<BR> <P>------------------<BR>"It's not over till we say it's over! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? H*ll no!" Blutto...Animal House 1984<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic<P>

Maybe mine is the "rare" betrayal....While it is true that my H and I utimately decided together that a divorce was the best for us, I do not see him "suffering" or going to hit rock bottom any time soon. His OW, Mia, broke off with him, left him to deal with his "feelings" towards his marriage, stopped all contact and, only when we finally split did she resurface. He actively pursued her, not the other way around. My children do not hate her, rather they see their dad "happy" (he was always miserable while living with me) They do not live together. He appears to be "courting" her. <P>I contributed towards that "environment" that Harley speaks about, allowing an affair to happen. I don't take complete responsibility for our marriage failing or for my H's actions.<P>I wonder how many other betrayers end up with their OPs living a better or happier life? I have read the statistics, but my H seems to be out of the norm.