This is my first visit to the site and I must acclimate myself to all of the abbreviations. Hold on to your hat and have a seat - here's my story....

My H and I have been married for 13 1/2 years and have one 10-year-old daughter I had the opportunity (again) at the beginning of December to listen in on my H's pager messages. He rec'd messages from this one particular female no less than 3 times a day sometimes more. Messages that did not include her name, sweet and sultry messages of her activities for the day, messages or numerical pages too often to be just a platonic friend. I confronted him after she left a message of thanking him for stopping by her house and she wished the visit had been longer. He says to this day that it was a totally platonic friend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Note that I remembered this number from about a year earlier when I had the opportunity to listen to messages, but she only called once or twice - so I thought nothing of it.

Now let me stop here and venture back over the last 13 years. We have had a pretty good/strong marriage along with the problems that marriage bring. We have always worked everything out - even the circumstantial evidence that I have found out during this 13 years, i.e., condoms found on 3 or 4 occasions, phone calls from other females (it only took one!), trusting him on his out of town trips (which he hasn't taken in quite a while). Again, I knew that I had not been perfect either.

Let me also pause here to say that my husband does not run the streets, he is at home or at his moms most of the time, he cleans, he cooks, he waits on me hand and foot, he is a great father and provider. Don't get the idea that I do nothing - we have careers, a house and a child - I play an active part at home - just not as active as some wives would.

It seems as if he knows everyone in out city and has told me on occasion that he couldn't sneak around because too many people know him. He does not, however, show any affection other than when he wants sex, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> or when we are out in public just to make a show - which makes me very angry, He also never plans any activities for just us. If I don't plan anything we don't do anything, but he tells me I am a dictator.

Anyway, because of very little affection/compassion, I have been unfaithful with more than one partner over these 13 years. Never thought about it doing anything until after my child was born. I needed affection and attention from him and ALL of his focus was on the child. This is one of the reasons that I have dismissed my suspicions of his infidelity because I knew what I had been doing. Keep in mind that to this day, he does not know about my infidelity. My last infidelity incident was in August - I did it just to get back at him for the condom incident in May.

We have a big snowball effect here - I don't get any affection because he does not give any, and so on so forth...

However, the Christmas of 2001 and the beginning of 2002 had been the happiest that we had been in a long time - things were going well. I had made the plans for our cruise the week of Memorial day, but a week earlier while packing my daughter's bag to go to her grandmother's, I attempted to empty one of his bags and found condoms yet again. Since I had made a decision about 1 yr earlier to be faithful and everything was going well (he even said so on more than one occasion), finding these condoms hurt me horribly. Needless to say our dream vacation was horrible.

He has lied to me about those condoms telling me 3 different lies and finally yesterday admitted to purchasing them himself - and just holding on to them just in case he met someone he wanted to get with. I told him I could sprout wings and fly too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Hold on - it gets better!!!

I called the other woman to invite her daughter to my daughter's bday party (they are friends), but I told the other woman that she was not to show up. My daughter REALLY wanted her friend to come - but I could not sit easy with her mother there. I have also put an invitation in the mail to her with a letter re-stating that she is NOT welcomed at the party. She did not have "any" response to my saying that.

I saw her number on my caller id when I returned home yesterday and called her back. We had abut a 30 minute conversation with her telling me that she and my husband had been "dating" since around April/May. She said several other things - she did not know that he and I were really together as husband and wife, then she said that he told her that his marriage was not good. I asked had he visited her at her house before, and her answer was "no", but I know for a fact that he has - for that brief visit that she left the message about !!! I asked her bluntly had she and he had sex. I asked her no less than 4 times during the conversation. Complete silence for several seconds, and then she continued to say that I needed to ask him. I told her I had asked him, but I wanted to make sure that both of them were telling the same story. She has not responded. My husband had denied everything that she said - which of course I expected at first. But usually when I continue to ask and pester - the truth comes out. He has not changed his position on this issue though.

My husband knows that I have an appt with my attny on tomorrow, and I told him the only way that I would not go, was that he called this other woman and tell her that we both needed to talk with her and she needed to tell him - in my presence - what she told me on the phone the day before. He called her immediately and called me back. I called her back myself to verify that he did speak with her. She said she did not want to "get involved" with what was going on Again she was too "cool". I told her that since she was woman enough to fool around with a married man and "date" him that she should be woman enough to talk with us both. She said she did not want to have anything to do with this situation. I told her that it was too late because she created the situation...

This is where I need you all's help. I have never been in this position before - but she sounded much too "cool" in talking with me. She and her husband are not together now and she is unemployed with 2 children. Her husband is also recently unemployed. I am wondering is it jealousy, or could she be making this up as we go along because she wanted something to happen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I know that women can be very vindictive - I should know - I called the other woman - not once - not twice - but 3 times and she actually talked to me and did not hang up on me - and believe me I was stern, brutal and VERY BLUNT with my questions.

It is very hard for me to believe that they were "dating" when my husband is at home or I KNOW exactly where he is most of the time. I know that people can do what they want when they want if they really want to, because I am proof of that, but... ???????????

I told my husband that he would have to leave if there was any chance of us reconciling. My original date to see my atty was after I listened in on the messages in early December. He pleaded with me to not do anything until after the holidays. He went on during the past 3 weeks like nothing had happened - cleaning, cooking, telling me that I am going to be so happy that I decided to stay with him, waiting on me hand and foot - just the norm. We had agreed on him moving out on Jan 1 - and he didn't he moved on Jan 3. I was upset because my daughter went with him, but after I thought about it, she is out of school for the holidays and having a good time with her dad and grandparents. She knows that "something" is going on because she has overheard several conversations, and my husband was stupid enough to tell her originally that her friend couldn't come to the bday party because mommy thought something was going on between her mother and him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Where was his mind?? I told him that that was not appropriate and he agreed and apologized.

My husband and I have talked frequently over the last couple of days, and yesterday and today I told him that mentally and physically I could not take this anymore. I tried to get him to talk about custody with my daughter. Mind you, my daughter and her daddy are VERY CLOSE. Everyone knows that she is daddy's little girl.

Hold on - I am almost finished

After we talked and could not come to an agreement of how we were going to decide how much time she would spend with each of us, he told me he would call me back later on after he thought about it. Our conversation got to a point where I told him that we needed to decide on custody or a judge would.

While he was thinking, I was thinking too. Mind you I had already told him that I called my attny on yesterday(Saturday) and the only reason that I did not file with him was that he was not in the office. The secretary wasn't even sure he wasn't in because he usually is - This had to be God working it out!!!

I had decided that when he called back I was going to tell him about my infidelity, because things could not get any worse than me visiting my attny for a divorce on tomorrow. When he called back, his first words were please don't do this - I don't want to divorce - I want us to try again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Whoa!!!! This took me aback!!! I am just wondering whether he was thinking about saving the marriage only because he knows that if we can't agree on custody - a judge will rule - and most likely in my favor.. Or if he really loves me as he says he does...???

Anyway, I went back to a suggestion that he made when I found out about this other lady - he said that I could write down whatever I wanted from him, we could take it to the lawyer and have the lawyer hold on to it - and if he violated anything on that list - I could have my divorce. I told him attnys don't do that. I put a little twist on it though - he came to the house and I wrote down what I wanted from him and he from me. We both signed and dated. Ironically enough - we had some of the same things on each other's list. I had on my list for him that we must see a marriage counselor for at least 6 months AND that there will be no more overnight trips... And that he must not even acknowledge the presence of this lady - even if he sees her out in public. Other things on both of our lists were more intimacy, affection, conversation. He told me on his list that I am bitter, abrasive and harsh, that I talk at him instead of to him, I am a dictator. I told him that I am this way because you made me this way. And I can be brutal when I am angry and I have been "off the chart" angry over the last few days.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> The snowball effect applies here

I also gave him an article off of this site entitled "Why women leave men" (or something to that affect). He said that it was very deep and he wanted to keep it.

We have decided to remain separated for a week or two to reflect and absorb the lists that we switched.

I wanted to know if anyone out there has used this site as their marriage counselor instead of paying for one ???? It can get expensive... My concern is that everything won't be addressed if we only use this site...

And as for my infidelity - no I haven't told him. I am sure that there are several different opinions (and everyone has one) as to whether I should or shouldn't, and I am open to them, but I have made a decision that since my decision to tell was blocked by him surprising me - then I don't need to tell. I don't ever plan on doing it again anyway...

I think I realize now that I do love my husband and miss him. Sure I could occupy my time - but for him to be gone only a short period of time - and me miss him instead of enjoying my time alone - has really opened my eyes.

Am I being too harsh on him Maybe. Am I being hypocritical maybe. Do I miss him just because he does a good deal around the house probably. Do I love him just for things that he does maybe Could our marriage be saved even though we are not in blissful love right now YES !!!!!!!!

Now - lastly - I am a Christian - and need some scriptures to stand on - I already have Is 58:9-12 and the usual ones for marriage - but are there any others that I can stand on WITH anyone out there??? I believe in praying for others!!!

Thanks for listening....

Hi there,

I am not a Christian , but I have this thing for quotes, maybe you could lean on these few. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sometimes people don't realise they need a new way of life , untill disaster overtakes them.

Let me weigh my misdeeds on an honest scale and make restitution aswell as I can. But let not the scale be unbalanced by what others have done.

One on one councelling has done wonders for our marriage. I wish you well.

take care.

bumping up to the top

whit:

"And as for my infidelity - no I haven't told him."

Tell him.

"I am sure that there are several different opinions (and everyone has one) as to whether I should or shouldn't, and I am open to them,"

As far as I can tell, there are only two opinions, tell or don't tell. On this forum, the "tells" will far outweigh the "don't tells". Remember, keeping this secret is lying. Pure and simple. Please don't choose to be a liar.

"but I have made a decision that since my decision to tell was blocked by him surprising me - then I don't need to tell."

Now THERE's some rationalized illogic, if I've ever heard it! You very definitely DO need to tell, because if anything can save your marriage (and your self-respect), it's going to start with honesty. Nothing less will do.

"I don't ever plan on doing it again anyway..."

Doesn't matter. Your H doesn't deserve to go through life with you believing that he was the sole transgressor in your M. You're a cheater too. He has just as much right to decide for himself whether to save this M or blow it off as you do. Give him that opportunity to grow from this awful history you've lived together.

T-zero:whit:

Thanks for your reply. Here's mine...

"As far as I can tell, there are only two opinions, tell or don't tell. On this forum, the "tells" will far outweigh the "don't tells". Remember, keeping this secret is lying. Pure and simple. Please don't choose to be a liar."

---You are correct - there are two opinions and with those opinions come justification. You may consider my not telling a lie - but I don't...---

"Now THERE's some rationalized illogic, if I've ever heard it! You very definitely DO need to tell, because if anything can save your marriage (and your self-respect), it's going to start with honesty. Nothing less will do."

---Here we go with the opinions again! My rationalization and yours don't equal and that's ok. I have and always will have self respect. That is not the issue. I feel justified in my decision and can sleep well at night because of the fact that I KNOW that my husband planned to hide all of the things that I found out. And I am sure that, even though he has not admitted it, he has had some part in infidelity also. I don't see the reasoning in telling now when he did not plan to tell me any of the things that I found out. I found out a few things by snooping, but most just fell into my lap.---

---"Doesn't matter. Your H doesn't deserve to go through life with you believing that he was the sole transgressor in your M. You're a cheater too. He has just as much right to decide for himself whether to save this M or blow it off as you do. Give him that opportunity to grow from this awful history you've lived together."---

---Speaking of who deserves what - I didn't "deserve" any of this either. He is no better than I am. And as a last note - don't be so quick to summarize my marriage as an "awful history". We are doing well and I pray that you and your continue to do well.----

whit:

"---You are correct - there are two opinions and with those opinions come justification. You may consider my not telling a lie - but I don't...---"

This also does not matter. I don't mean to be mean, because my WW has said the same thing you're saying as justification for not telling me about her A 12 years ago. I found out about it last year. She didn't tell me. She still believes that not telling me something isn't lying. But, by definition, this is "lying by omission". Look it up. I didn't make it up because I was hurt. Not telling your spouse important information about you that impacts your relationship is LYING by omission. It certainly isn't being truthful.

"---Here we go with the opinions again! My rationalization and yours don't equal and that's ok. I have and always will have self respect. That is not the issue. I feel justified in my decision and can sleep well at night because of the fact that I KNOW that my husband planned to hide all of the things that I found out."

This doesn't sound like a very rewarding relationship. Someone has to break this circle in order for things to improve. In my case, I chose to start telling things about me that might impact how my W and I get along, just in case there was something there that might have contributed to the deterioration of our relationship. And some of it has helped. I'm still waiting for my W to volunteer her stories about her R with OM (they're still in private contact), but I'm trying not to be pushy. In the end, though, I'd rather not be M'd to her any longer if we can't both be completely, radically honest about ourselves to one another. And I've been M'd for 27 years.

"And I am sure that, even though he has not admitted it, he has had some part in infidelity also. I don't see the reasoning in telling now when he did not plan to tell me any of the things that I found out."

Same counter argument from me as above. Somebody has to START being honest, or the M won't be worth saving.

"I found out a few things by snooping, but most just fell into my lap.---"

I found out by accident, too.

"---Speaking of who deserves what - I didn't "deserve" any of this either. He is no better than I am."

I apologize about using the word "deserve". I believe that we all must work for the good things we want/need in life. We really don't just "deserve" them.

"And as a last note - don't be so quick to summarize my marriage as an "awful history". We are doing well and I pray that you and your continue to do well.---- "

Fair enough. I would have to say that the past 12 years of my M haven't been entirely "awful" either, but they certainly weren't anywhere near as good as the previous 15 were. And my W would agree with me. But, if we had been completely honest with each other 12 years ago when this all began, we could have either dealt with the A then, or ended our M on equitable terms and BOTH gone onto better relationships by now. I STILL would prefer to save my M, but I won't if we can't get to a point of complete honesty, so that we can work as a team and prevent another A.

T-zero:

Thanks for your response. Even though we don't agree - I can agree to disagree....

You sound as if you are still hurt and your wife is still in the midst of an affair... IF that is the case - I hope things get better for you. I still feel as if you are passing judgement on me, while your 27 years of marriage have not been honest. Two wrongs don't make a right - and wrong is wrong no matter who does it. I was wrong and so was he. We both played roles resulting in our present situation.

But my question is - who is to ever say that anyone is being totally and completely honest in a marriage (or any other type of relationship for that matter) - especially when "things" have happened in the past that were lies/deceptions/omissions or whatever you want to call it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

And I have looked up lying - and I am sorry - I still don't see your point of view - and that's all it is until you can show me EXACTLY what you are saying. Otherwise, as religion and politics, it's all left up to interpretation.

All relationships have thier moments. And if you have been married 27 years - either you have been miserable and decided to remain in the relationship, or your relationship had it's ups and downs, its rewards and disappointments as all marriages do.

You "chose" to tell your spouse whatever you told her, and that is YOUR CHOICE. I can't tell you that that was a right or wrong choice because you have to live with your spouse and with yourself. If doing what you did made you feel better, and you think it makes for a better relationship, then so be it. However, what works for your household/life, etc., may not work for mine or anyone else's, and vice versa...

"I'm still waiting for my W to volunteer her stories about her R with OM (they're still in private contact), but I'm trying not to be pushy. In the end, though, I'd rather not be M'd to her any longer if we can't both be completely, radically honest about ourselves to one another. And I've been M'd for 27 years."

Believe me, I understand about being hurt and wanting honesty. But again, who's to say that your spouse will ever be completely honest about what she has done that you don't know about??? Maybe... Does she feel that you are being completely honest?? Maybe... Think about it...

"Same counter argument from me as above. Somebody has to START being honest, or the M won't be worth saving."

I disagree totally with this statement. My marriage and yours is worth saving because ultimately - one year from now, 5 years from now, on your death bed or at your funeral, will this really matter --- as long as you and your spouse agree to start living again today and doing what it takes to "affair proof" your marriage???

Reliving the past only takes away from the present, and your life passes you by in the meantime. That's one of the reasons that I have let go of a great deal of pain and decided that it's time to go on.... I cannot do or change anything that has happened in the past, but I can impact NOW and the FUTURE.

I am the last person to give any advice; however, I have read about Plan A and Plan B on this website. This may be an option for you if your spouse is still in contact with the OM... For me, I don't think that I could "know" what you know (about the "private contact") and still have a relationship with me spouse. But that's me, and again - my advice is only that "advice"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My husband and I are separated right now because he and I really think we need this time apart. We talk several times a day. We have our lists of what we want from each other that would make us happy, and we think that we are intelligent enough to take this matter into our hands, make a commitment to tend to each other's needs. This is basically what a marriage counselor would do anyway. We plan to resume our marriage in 3-4 weeks, and we both will come back fresh and ready to start our life again. This is what is working for us - and may not work for the next couple. I am convinced that we can do this - and you can too!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I wish you well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

whit:

"You sound as if you are still hurt and your wife is still in the midst of an affair... IF that is the case - I hope things get better for you."

It is the case, and yet... They haven't met in person in over a year (he lives in another state). My W clearly doesn't want to lose our M, in spite of her "I never wanted to be M'd" comments, because she hasn't left. OM was probably in town over the holidays (he has family here) and his W is having a revenge A, so he asked my W to come live with him. In spite of all that, she made every effort to be with me and her family the entire time - so much so that I can't think of a single moment when she could have met him, assuming he was in town. So, yes, I consider the contact as an ongoing EA, but I also acknowledge the "effort" she's making to end it, or at least not to break up our family.

"I still feel as if you are passing judgement on me, while your 27 years of marriage have not been honest."

Well, maybe that's too strong a statement. Our M has been honest, or at least most facets of it, with the exception of the nature of the R with OM. I've never had an A, either. I've been attracted to a couple of women during our M, but they never knew it, or if they guessed we never talked about it. But my W is afraid she won't ever be able to trust ME again. By that, she means that she believes she tried to tell me when she felt she was "in trouble" without telling me what the trouble was, and she wasn't satisfied with my reaction. Looking back, I'm not either, and that's what I mean when I say I'm working on telling her "truths" about myself so that she'll feel comfortable in revealing truths about herself to me. That kind of honesty. No judgements as to what the other person could or should hear. Let them decide what's important to THEM.

"Two wrongs don't make a right "

No, but three lefts do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"But my question is - who is to ever say that anyone is being totally and completely honest in a marriage (or any other type of relationship for that matter) - especially when "things" have happened in the past that were lies/deceptions/omissions or whatever you want to call it "

I don't know "who" is to say this... You might be interested in looking up old threads about "measured honesty" and "radical honesty" from several months back. Who determines what level of honesty is required to keep a marriage healthy? Granted, there are a LOT of counselors out there that actually believe that "measured honesty" is the best policy and that a WS should NOT tell the BS about their A if they don't find out on their own (I had one of these). I believe these counselors (and, again, there are a LOT of them), are nothing less than dangerous fools, messing with other peoples' lives. But that's how strongly I feel. You'll find that this website and many of the members of this forum share this view.

"And I have looked up lying - and I am sorry - I still don't see your point of view - and that's all it is until you can show me EXACTLY what you are saying. Otherwise, as religion and politics, it's all left up to interpretation.

Well, there are a lot of websites and publications on the subject. Try http://www.selfcreation.com/happiness/7_honesty.htm, for an example. Also, the MB home page discusses radical honesty at length. But I like what a friend of mine quoted recently on another forum:

Friend: "Speaking of Honesty, here are the "5 Levels of Truth-Telling"

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Start telling the truth now, and never stop. Begin by telling the truth to yourself about yourself. Then tell the truth to yourself about another. Then tell the truth about yourself to another. Then tell the truth about another to that other. Finally, tell the truth to everyone about everything.
This is the Five Levels of Truth-Telling. This is the path to freedom. The truth shall set you free."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Principle of Visibility in part states that

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"This is about simply being open and honest in your dealings with another. This is about simply telling the truth when you speak, and about withholding no truth when you know it should be spoken. This is about never again lying, or shading, or verbally or mentally manipulating, or twisting your truth into the hundred and one other contortions which typify the largest number of human communications."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
and it continues about what would happen if we went this route:

quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"...Half the world's ills would go away tomorrow. Half the world's worries, half the world's conflicts, half the world's anger, half the world's frustration...Perhaps when you lose the fear of having your life become totally visible at the moment of your death, you can get over the fear of having your life become totally visible while you are living it."
------------------------------------------------------------------------"
End friend's quotes.

"All relationships have thier moments. And if you have been married 27 years - either you have been miserable and decided to remain in the relationship, or your relationship had it's ups and downs, its rewards and disappointments as all marriages do."

I can see elements of both in my marriage. Or maybe you've just said the same thing in two different ways. I simply choose NOW, based on what I know as of last year, to either make it better than it's been (sometimes great, sometimes miserable, but on average mediocre when it could have been better), or replace it with something different.

"You "chose" to tell your spouse whatever you told her, and that is YOUR CHOICE. I can't tell you that that was a right or wrong choice because you have to live with your spouse and with yourself. If doing what you did made you feel better, and you think it makes for a better relationship, then so be it."

It did, and it continues to improve. I can't imagine anything else coming out of it. The truth DOES set you free.

"However, what works for your household/life, etc., may not work for mine or anyone else's, and vice versa..."

I'm not so sure.

"Believe me, I understand about being hurt and wanting honesty. But again, who's to say that your spouse will ever be completely honest about what she has done that you don't know about??? Maybe..."

Maybe what? Maybe I've learned enough about her body language and other nuances of our interaction to be able to tell when she's lying by omission now. Before D-day, there were plenty of these kinds of "signs" that something was very amiss. If I knew then what I know now, it would have been obvious what was going on. Bottom line is that I believe that I will KNOW if she's not being completely honest with me, and if I've accomplished anything by being honest with HER about ME, then she'll know if I'm being dishonest with her from now on.

"Does she feel that you are being completely honest?? Maybe..."

No, she doesn't. At least that's what she said as of a couple of months ago. She may feel differently now, because I'm making an obvious EFFORT to be honest with her about me and what I'm thinking/feeling. To me, this seems like it's harder - because I've not been "dishonest" to the extent she has (I've never had an A) - so I need to find out what she feels I've kept from her that she thinks are important. It's not an easy thing to figure out, but it's a very worthwhile exercise.

"Think about it... "

Indeed.

"Same counter argument from me as above. Somebody has to START being honest, or the M won't be worth saving."
I disagree totally with this statement. My marriage and yours is worth saving because ultimately - one year from now, 5 years from now, on your death bed or at your funeral, will this really matter --- as long as you and your spouse agree to start living again today and doing what it takes to "affair proof" your marriage???
Reliving the past only takes away from the present, and your life passes you by in the meantime. That's one of the reasons that I have let go of a great deal of pain and decided that it's time to go on.... I cannot do or change anything that has happened in the past, but I can impact NOW and the FUTURE."

We clearly have misunderstood each other, as I agree with everything you just said.

"I am the last person to give any advice; however, I have read about Plan A and Plan B on this website. This may be an option for you if your spouse is still in contact with the OM..."

I tried plan B in July. It's not for me. Plan B is designed to "preserve your remaining love for your WS by removing yourself from the situation" (separating). By trying that, I realized that I'm not losing any of my love for my W. If I'm losing anything, it's my respect for her as a W, not my love for her. So, I'm going to plan A until I die. Literally. I'll plan A even if we're not M'd, because plan A is for me, not anybody else.

"For me, I don't think that I could "know" what you know (about the "private contact") and still have a relationship with me spouse. But that's me, and again - my advice is only that "advice"..."

Perhaps my explanation of the situation as it stands now will carify in part why I can still have a relationship with my W.

"My husband and I are separated right now because he and I really think we need this time apart. We talk several times a day. We have our lists of what we want from each other that would make us happy, and we think that we are intelligent enough to take this matter into our hands, make a commitment to tend to each other's needs."

And this is a decent MB-like approach. But be careful. If you take responsibility for your own happiness, rather than expect the other to MAKE you happy, you cannot be disappointed. This is NOT to say don't have boundaries within your M. M is a contract, and boundaries are important.

"This is basically what a marriage counselor would do anyway."

Many would. Many would not. You'd be surprised how many "bad" M counselors there really are out there. I've spoken to 4 of them, myself. Two were very good. One seemed to know what he was talking about, but believed in "measured honesty" and thought I should "shift your paradigm of right and wrong and put up with your philandering spouse" (no $h!+! His words!). The other, we went to through our HMO. They're too busy to have time to effectively deal with crises like infidelity. Ours was "okay" as an individual therapist, but dangerous to our M in the long haul, because she was so ineffective.

"We plan to resume our marriage in 3-4 weeks, and we both will come back fresh and ready to start our life again. This is what is working for us - and may not work for the next couple. I am convinced that we can do this - and you can too!!!"

I am very happy for you! I hope it works out, and look forward to reading your posts in the future.

Take care,

T-zero:

The only thing that I could think about when reading your latest post was that "perception is reality" - and a quote that my 77 year old dad says all the time --- "I have two eyes, and if I didn't see or hear it for myself - I cannot say that it actually happened. I can take another person's word for it, but who is to say that person is not lying. Their mouth is cut "cross-ways" like yours and mine". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> This is very simplistic, yet totally true...

I can't say for sure that my husband has had or has not had an affair, but my perception is reality. I THINK he has, and HAS not being totally honest with me on all ocassions in the past. Who's to say that he would reveal anything if I decided to tell him about mine?? No one. I can only go by what he says and go forward with that. Let me say - that if ever asked about my A, I will not lie.

I do think that he is sincere enough to want to try again because of the things that we have agreed to. I know, and have known, that I cannot depend on him to make me happy and vise versa. However, when you are married, no matter what anyone says, there is a level of expectation from that partner to do some things that keep you emotionally connected. If connection is not kept, we all know what happens - affairs and dishonesty.

We can be aware and have discernment - but will NEVER know for sure anything that we did not see or hear ourselves...

" "However, what works for your household/life, etc., may not work for mine or anyone else's, and vice versa..."

I'm not so sure. "

I can't say what I will or would not do in a situation that I have not been exposed to; however, what I do know is that some things (that I know about) that go on in other people's household would not work in mine. You can disagree for whatever reason, but that is a true statement if anyone ever made one. Just look at our society and who holds what values as priority...

I also hope that things work themselves out for you too!

whit:

"The only thing that I could think about when reading your latest post was that "perception is reality" - and a quote that my 77 year old dad says all the time --- "I have two eyes, and if I didn't see or hear it for myself - I cannot say that it actually happened. I can take another person's word for it, but who is to say that person is not lying. Their mouth is cut "cross-ways" like yours and mine". This is very simplistic, yet totally true...

I like that! ;o) Reminds me of the "If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody's there to see it, does it make a noise?" (or "If a man says something, and no woman is around to hear him, is he still wrong?"). Well, I was once sitting on a ridge crest in the White Pine Mts in Nevada, mapping the rock outcroppings in the valley below, and about a hundred feet away and maybe 50 feet below me, this old snag suddenly creaked and cracked and fell over. It was a beautiful, sunny, calm day, and I'm pretty sure that, even if that tree had been alive, it wouldn't have known I was there. And that thing made a heckuva racket as it crashed through the branches of the surrounding forest on it's way to the ground... ...so, as a scientist, I would have to say that you're right to a point: perception may seem pretty substantial from the point of view of the perceiver, but it may not be reality. ;o) WS's, deep in the fog, spouting all kinds of nonsensical stuff, perceive all kinds of reality. Most make no sense at all to the rest of the planet.

"I can't say for sure that my husband has had or has not had an affair, but my perception is reality. I THINK he has, and HAS not being totally honest with me on all ocassions in the past. Who's to say that he would reveal anything if I decided to tell him about mine?? No one. I can only go by what he says and go forward with that."

Huh? Why not just ask? Don't you believe that you'd be able to determine whether he's telling the truth or not?

"Let me say - that if ever asked about my A, I will not lie."

Okay, I'm asking. Only don't just answer to me. Tell your H, because I'm asking for him because he doesn't know to ask for himself. Okay?

"However, when you are married, no matter what anyone says, there is a level of expectation from that partner to do some things that keep you emotionally connected. If connection is not kept, we all know what happens - affairs and dishonesty."

I disagree. the M contract is just a contract. It obligates the partners to preserve and protect the M and the family. But your emotional connection is still your own responsibility. So is his. I'm not going to "turn off" my love for my W because of some condition I've imposed on her that she isn't meeting. I have no business expecting her to love me, I can only hope she does. I do have a right to expect her to be faithful to me, because she promised me she would (27 years ago), as did I.

"We can be aware and have discernment - but will NEVER know for sure anything that we did not see or hear ourselves..."

Again, as a scientist, I don't believe that to be absolutely true. But we're also talking about feelings and emotions here, not just physical objects falling over, so I'll let this one go.

Take care,

"Huh? Why not just ask? Don't you believe that you'd be able to determine whether he's telling the truth or not? "

I have asked -- and he says no. Science is much more definitive than a relationship! I have believed things that he has said in the past and they turned out to be lies. I can detect some things because we have been together for so long, and I am sure that will get better as the years go by, but scientist or not, we as human beings cannot detect 100% of the time whether a person is lying or telling the truth... scientist or not <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

" "Let me say - that if ever asked about my A, I will not lie."

Okay, I'm asking. Only don't just answer to me. Tell your H, because I'm asking for him because he doesn't know to ask for himself. Okay? "

No. Just accept that I disagree with you on this subject.

" I disagree. the M contract is just a contract. It obligates the partners to preserve and protect the M and the family. But your emotional connection is still your own responsibility. So is his. I'm not going to "turn off" my love for my W because of some condition I've imposed on her that she isn't meeting. I have no business expecting her to love me, I can only hope she does. I do have a right to expect her to be faithful to me, because she promised me she would (27 years ago), as did I. "

I would think if she promised to be faithful, she promised to love too - but loving and being faithful does not mean that we won't make mistakes. I don't think of marriage as a "contract" It is a relationship and along with relationships come "feelings" - any type of relationship. When someone does someone to threaten the relationship or "hurt" you, it hurts you emotionally if you love them and expect them to love you - and I do "EXPECT" to be love, not just hope...

I am not saying that the spouse has to meet a "condition", but if there is no emotional connection, why would it matter if the spouse did hurt your feelings, or walked out, or you become "emotional" when sickness or death occurs? I don't understand your reasoning. I am very strong person, but no matter how strong you are, no matter how happy you are, if that person that you are married to continues to do "something" that makes you as a person unhappy, it affects you...EMOTIONALLY. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

" "We can be aware and have discernment - but will NEVER know for sure anything that we did not see or hear ourselves..."

Again, as a scientist, I don't believe that to be absolutely true. But we're also talking about feelings and emotions here, not just physical objects falling over, so I'll let this one go. "

Fair enough - I just want to talk apples to apples here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Bottom line for me is that we are all human and make mistakes. If we are looking for the perfect mate that will not make mistakes - well that person does not exist.

whit:

"No. Just accept that I disagree with you on this subject."

Okay. I accept. But you might want to talk to others on this forum about this issue. I believe it's a MUCH BIGGER DEAL than you're giving it credit for here. Try posting to GQII, which gets more traffic than this forum.

I fear that you'll find, in the long run, that this form of "measured honesty" will not work.

take care,

I honestly believe that some things should be carried to our graves. We would all be better off if we didn't "AIR" ALL of our dirty laundry. I did admit to my ex-husband when he asked me about having affairs when we were married. He had more than you could ever imagine. He was addicted to Pornography among other things. I have two young daughters to protect and I threw him out of the house. I was tired of all the lies and stealing from his family (in more ways than one) I wasn't about to let my children "stumble upon" his garbage, it was hard core garbage. It is horrible than some women (and men) allow themselves to be so exploited! I have never seen such trash before in my life.

I will tell you this, affairs are also addicting. Unless you really pray for God to sanctify your soul and desires, it will always be there tempting you. They say its more fun when you sneak.....it's true, it's human nature. we cannot fight it on our own. We have to have Gods help to get through it and OVER IT!

After I threw my husband out, I went "hog wild" for a couple years myself. I was leaving my daughters with my brother and some of my girlfriends, etc. so that I could paint the town red. It was a long couple of years and lonely. It was very lonely. One night stands aren't all people make them out to be. Trust me, I know. I can't remember the names of all the men that I have been with. I know that is horrible, but God has forgiven me for my sins.

I don't care how long a couple has been together, they have to "work" to keep their marriage/relationship alive and growing. There has to be romantic get-a-ways, etc. You have to think about the other persons needs and wants...otherwise, there is a whore on every corner (men & women) that is ready to giv eyour partner some instant gratification. It may be temporary, but we all have the need for attention and affection and we as humans will get it somehow!