Thanks Jen Brown for sharing your letter. I think you've done an awesome job. I need feedback similar to Jen. Wife left the kids and I in Sep 02 after I confronted her about an affair in which she was involved. She moved into her own apt. I filed for divorce and adopted a "tough love" stance and each time she would respond. When I indicated I was still interested in reconciling, I essentially told her the job was still open and she would be back to boyfriend again. In November she broke it off with boyfriend and we began counseling in December. I accidently discovered them in a hotel as he was leaving town the next day, and confronted her about it. I then broke off counseling and issued the following ultimatum in a letter (with counselor's help). Am concerned I was provided bad advice and it may have been too harsh - it was written and sent while I was still hurt and angry. She has indicated she would like to try to reconcile but is not willing to "jump through the hoops" I spelled out in the ultimatum. She has even stalled the divorce process. She is not involved with any other at this time. Please critique (below) and tell me if I overkilled it.

S,
I saw you and Pat at the motel.

I will no longer have any personal contact with you whatsoever and will only communicate with you for reasons pertaining to the children (visitation, etc.) or other divorce-related issues.

The ONLY way I would even consider giving you another chance is if you do the following:
1. Send me a letter saying
a. "I love you"
b. "I'm sorry for betraying you, hurting you and the kids, and for walking out on you and the kids"
c. "I will date [me] only and see him as frequently as he chooses until he says I can move back home with him and the kids
d. "I promise to be completely faithful"
e. Agree to a polygraph (lie detector test) for up to a year to verify no inappropriate contact with any other person
2. Provide polygraph results showing no inappropriate contact with any other person for at leat the four previous weeks (polygraph examiners may be found in the Yellow Pages or by referral through local Police Dept.)
3. "Come clean" about any other affairs since living in [our state - approx 15 years] and provide polygraph results for same
4. Dr. [Counselor] calls me, tells me you've returned to counseling and you're working hard at changing
5. Reconnect your home phone [phone disconnected - can only afford cell] and agree to my calling you to verify you're at home, with no one else. If I find you've lied, we're finished.
6. Send me your wedding ring as a good faith deposit. These items will be returned to you if I decide not to give you another chance or if I decide to break up with you, even though you've passed your polygraph.

If you need clarification or additional details, Dr. [counselor] is aware of the conditions I've set forth and can help you.

D

FYI - We are not counselors in any way. Just people who have gone/are going through the same crap as you.

tell me if I overkilled it.
ugh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Overkill is much too simple a word.

Is the divorce on hold? How long until it is complete?

She has indicated she would like to try to reconcile but is not willing to "jump through the hoops" I spelled out in the ultimatum.
This is a good sign.
Now stop and take a breath before you do any thing else.

When did you give her this letter?
Are you still seeing this counselor? (please, please, please say no?)

it was written and sent while I was still hurt and angry.
One reason to wait for a clear head before you make any (especially a major) decision.

How familiar are you with Marriage Builders and all the concepts? Have you read "Surviving An Affair?"

Here is a good place to start.
Basic Concepts

and

How to Survive Infidelity

I recommend if you have any contact with your wife in the next few days/weeks about what's going on, let her know you are considering the letter you wrote. Don't yet tell her it was too much or you didn't mean it, just you are thinking about it. Be gentle/nice with her and not demanding. Once you understand MB principles a bit more, it gets easier.

Yes, I think your letter was a bit too harsh..

Here is what I have discovered that works very well..

Tell her that you do not blame her for not wanting to jump through hoops to reconcile. Tell her that you were wrong in the way you handled the letter. Then say you are sorry..

That is it.. just tell her you were wrong, you do not blame her for feeling that way, and say you are sorry.. be sincere... then just shut up....

Do not explain to her that you did it in anger,or try to justify all you were going through, because then it will not come across as the right way to apologize... keep it short and simple.. then
move on to just enjoying things as they are..

If people feel pressure to come back, then they waggle back and forth about what they want.. There has to be total absence of pressure. They need to feel like it is out of CHOICE. Then it has a much better chance of working...

Chris & Keepmvn 4wrd,
Thanks folks. Your "counsel" apprears more sound than what I've gotten from a professional.
The divorce is still proceeding. Everything to which she previously agreed in mediation she has now reneged on. Close friends tell me this is her way of trying to stop the divorce. We go to court again on 3/7. Don't know when it will be finalized. I'm considering telling the lawyer to let this ride a while. She has no lawyer, no money, and her job ends in a week. She misses the children BADLY. Gave the ultimatum to her about 7 weeks ago and since then she has made many conciliatory moves (Christmas gifts for me, music CDs, left romantic voice mail messages, etc.) but counselor advised "hold the line." In my spirit I felt I was being punitive. I was still seeing this counselor but won't be going back to him. Have read "Surviving and Affair" - sounds like I need to read it again. Any thoughts on calling the dogs off with the lawyer and letting the divorce stay in a holding pattern for a while? Thanks again.

Dad,

Yup, a bit harsh, but oddly not completely out of line with a firm Plan B as proposed by Harley here. Of course his counsel would be to do a good Plan A before going to Plan B.

I like the advice to apologize for the "hoops", but then go look at what a "real" plan B letter looks like. Oddly, while in essence stating the same thing( no contact until OM is out of the picture), it is a LOVE letter.

My question for you Dad, is do you love your W? Would you want her back? If so, then solution is probably NOT a divorce, but a lot of work by both of you on the issues that led to her affair, and by her to show you that she can be trusted. I don't think the polygraph idea is going to fly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, it does have it's merit.

Nevertheless, she will need to rebuild your trust by her actions. You might ask her how she would propose to do this. You might ask her if she were you, how would she confirm what was being said and done was the truth.

Before the divorce, I would talk with her. I would like to strongly recommend that you read two books: His Needs Her Needs and Surviving an Affair both by Harley. They can be read fairly easily. A slower read is required to get some of the nuances out of it. Read some of the articles here and see what you think.

You may decide you don't want to be married to her, she may decide the same about you, but why don't both of you sit down together and decide to try and save it or end it together. It is called the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. It is part of the "radical honesty" approach that is sort of the foundation of this site.

So do some homework, do some thinking, and do some talking. Perhaps things will become clearer to you.

God Bless,

JL

It sounds as if she is having grave doubts about everything. It's typical.

say you are sorry.. be sincere... then just shut up....
Yes. By trying to explain is to try & justify. You may be "justified" (sorry. NOT a reference to a current pop stars album. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) but so what? You want to possibly save this marriage, not make excuses.

I think you situation is very salvageable but it is in a tricky place & I hesitate to recommend any other steps except professional help.

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
IMPORTANT MESSAGE AHEAD!!
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

I HIGHLY recommend AS SOON AS POSSIBLE you make an appt with Steve or Jennifer Harley (Dr Harleys children) at Marriage Builders (1-888-639-1639). They do all the counseling.

Monday is a holiday but I would still give them a call & see if they are in. Also, let the receptionist know you have a court date on Mar 7 so she can try to get you in before with enough time to deal with it.

They are great motivators and will help you develop a plan to deal with this. It is not dozens of sessions (unless you want it) dealing with childhood issues and the position of the stars. MB counseling gives you actions to take, tells you what you can expect and how to act/react to the situation. I counseled with Steve & he was great!

It may be a bit expensive BUT it is far less than a divorce and not much more than a regular marriage counselor.

As Nike says, "Just do it!"

Again, thanks for your feedback.
OK, apologize for the hoops and shut up. I can do that. Do I love her? YES! I would want her back. Since she left I've learned she was unhappy for a very long time, discussed leaving me with friends, and yet TOTALLY FOOLED US ALL by pretending to be happy wife and mom. Also learned she has had other affairs. All forgiveable, and I do forgive her. Reminded her of that last night. She is convinced friends/associates could never forgive her for leaving her children and she couldn't face them. Said she'd love to simply move away and make a fresh start somewhere. I know Harley has counseled couples to do so but I'm not sure if it's workable for us (sell the home, kids out of private school, resign from a very good position, and so forth). I apreciate your advice to have a good honest talk before the next court date. She may be more receptive to talk.
Thanks again guys!

Also learned she has had other affairs. All forgiveable, and I do forgive her. Reminded her of that last night.
Here's some food for thought.
Why did you forgive her? Has she done something Said she'd love to simply move away and make a fresh start somewhere.
Moving does not solve problems. If you don't learn how to deal with them, they (problems) will still be wherever you move.

I know Harley has counseled couples to do so but I'm not sure if it's workable for us (sell the home, kids out of private school, resign from a very good position, and so forth).
No one is telling you to do this. The first thing you need to do is salvage your marriage (if it is do-able.)

Harley only recommends this as a last resort to get the wayward spouse away from the affair partner IF NECESSARY, not "just because." And jobs/houses/schools are much easier to find than trying to work through a marriage where a wayward spouse keeps going back to an affair partner.

I don't mean to be a downer but are you really sure you wish to be with her? Look what you have: A wife who has had multiple affairs and puts your health at great risk, leaves her children and gets caught again with her lover during the divorce proceedings. She is hurting for money and now decides it would be possible to move back with you so she can become financially stable again as long as she does not have to go through hoops? What a great role model for your children. It just sounds to me that you are setting yourself up again for another fall. What mother in her right mind would leave her children?
I am afraid that you are in a fog also. She has a broken moral compass and has not shown you that she has changed her character. I wish you luck but I am afraid that you are in deep deep denial.
Keep a watchful eye on your finances in the future.

This weekend we had the opportunity to sit and discuss things. She asked me what I wanted and I replied by asking her what she wanted. She broke down and apologized, said she wanted me back, the children, my forgiveness, and another opportunity to save our marriage. She acknowledged that rebuilding of trust was a challenge and is agreeable to certain safeguards ala Harley to ensure a level of security needed to rebuild that trust. She was, I believe, truly repentant. She agrees counseling is needed. When we talk again tomorrow I intend to tell her that she can best rebuild trust by her actions and ask how she would do this - that if she were in my shoes how she'd verify the talk with the walk. Ronald Reagan said to "trust, but verify." Is that applicable here? We have counseling appointment (new counselor) set up for Thu 1/20.