I didn't find out about the A until after my W moved out. She moved in with her parents, denying there was an A, (even though I suspected it) then 5 days later moved in with the OM.

Is it too late for Plan A? Now that shes gone and restricted our contact to just a few phone calls, can I do a Plan A? Send flowers and cards and gifts to her office? Try and be as sweeet and loving during our phone calls?

Or did I miss the chance for a plan A? It seems like plan B at this point would just help push her out the door (she's still coming back this week to get the rest of her belongings).

I've asked her to go to counseling, to talk with our pastor, or to even just meet me face-2-face to talk about things, but she automatically says no to any of those options. She hasn't mentioned divorce yet, but she seems to be on the road straight to it.

Please help this soul in need.

JohnnyB,
I know this is hard, man. It feels like crap in your gut. It did in mine too.

But Plan-A is NOT sending flowers and gifts and phone calls, etc. Do NOT do any of that. Do not beg or call, or anything like that.

Plan-A is for *YOU* to improve yourself in every aspect of your life. It's intent is to show your WW what you are truly made of. Plan-A is also a way to remind YOU of what kind of great spouse YOU are. It is NOT to win her back. Through Plan-A you also will see more clearly whether or not she is good enough for YOU.

If your WW wants no contact then grant her this. But make it stick. Don't threaten, cajole, cry, or anything like that.

Plan-A advice:
1. Make sure the house is spotlessly clean all the time but especially when she comes to get her stuff. Don't talk about it, just let it be evident.
2. Do not start a conversation about your marriage or start an argument.
2a. You may wish to pack some of her stuff neatly and nicely to get her out faster.
3. If she says anything odd or hurtful (in-person or on the phone if she calls) tell her so. Don't 'question' it, tell her, "I don't want to talk to you like this." If she calls, or starts conversations that are hurtful, cut them short.
4. If she wants to talk honestly and maturely about your marriage, that's okay. But don't start in on her about the marriage, let her bring it up.
5. Be strong, but not mean.
6. Do NOT 'bring things up' to her about the A or the OM. He will fail her eventually, good people do not engage in affairs.
7. Be pure, honest and level-headed.
8. Be mature, as an adult would be.
9. Do NOT be judgemental. If she is fishing for a response, you say "Do what you feel you have to do." And end the conversation there.
10. Do all of this knowing (and never mention this to her) that A's never develop into anything worth while.

Plan-A is for you to feel better by improving yourself.

Plan-B is tough love.

You'll be okay JohnnyB.
Stick to the plan and she won't find a target to hurt.

No it's not too late to start Plan A. Read Surviving An Affair and What Are Plan A and Plan B?

like_iron,
Beg to differ. True, Plan A IS about learning to improve yourself.

Send flowers & gifts as you normally would do. If she asks you to stop, then stop. Don't push issues if she is uncomfortable with them.

Things you do in Plan A are things you are going to do for the rest of your life. If your house is spotless now & she comes back, it is up to YOU to make sure it is ALWAYS spotless. Don't be a slob. Clean up.

Don't pack her stuff unless she asks you to. Don't have it waiting for her.

Don't get into relationship stuff unless she brings it up. Then keep it light. Don't expect to save everything overnight.

If plan A has to show that affection or WW complaint about BS that BS never gives flower and attention ... by all means do it. It is never too late to do plan A. Print out LBQ and ENQ then fill it up as if she would. LBQ is list of no no ... avoid at all cost. ENQ is list of bottomless pits ... you need to fill it up as much as you can and as much as she allows you to. Then make a list of her complaint about you, as long as you could do it, FIX IT. Set yourself a timeframe to try this at your best ... anywhere from 6 months and up.

good luck -rh-

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Print out LBQ and ENQ then fill it up as if she would.
Remember you are doing this from her point of view so you have something to work on. This is not the time to try & give them to her to fill out. She probably doesn't care much about your needs right now. While in Plan A, your needs are on the back burner.

Thank you for all the advice.

I did pick up "Surviving An Affair" last night and have began reading it.

When she came over last monday to pick up more of her clothes, she saw "His Needs/Her Needs" on the counter and asked about it. I told her I had read it over the weekend and thought it had a lot of really good information, and said she could take it if she wanted to. After picking it up and reading the back cover, she put it in her bag and took it with her. I didn't know it at the time, but that was the day she moved into the OM's house <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

But she does have it, and perhaps she'll open it up and begin to read. I truly hope she does. I also had printouts of the ENQ and LBQ stuck in the back of the book, so she has all the material with her. It's just a matter of if she'll take advantage of it. (She never was fond of reading)

She hasn't specifically asked me not to call her, but she's made it clear that talking to me makes her feel uncomfortable. I think it makes her feel guilty for what she's doing. I also believe that's why she refuses to meet me in person to discuss things.. She doesn't have the courage to look me in the eyes after what she's done.

My WW has told me she cannot try our marriage again right now. I asked her about giving some time, if she could try then, and all she can come up with is "I Don't Know".

There are small things that keep giving me a little bit of hope here and there. Some of her complaints were that I didn't put her 'First' in my life. That I didn't consider her needs seriously enough (especially about having a baby), and she's been miserable for a few months now.

With luck and prayer, I hope she will give our marriage another chance. But for now, while she's living with the OM, my situation feels very bleak. All I can do is let her know I'm still her, that I still love her, and that I'm more than willing to try and rebuild our marriage. She probably doesn't think this change is genuine. I have to admit, right now, I feel and think MUCH differently than I did 4 weeks ago. Every spare moment has been spent reading books, articles, and this forum to try and absorb all the information I can.

I see a lot of places where our marriage went wrong. And with that knowledge and understanding, I feel certain that I'm better equipped to make the marriage work now. She's just too hurt to give me that chance.

Any more Plan A advice, or any advice at all, would be more than appreciated. I thank you one and all for your kindness, patience, and input.

When she came over last monday to pick up more of her clothes, she saw "His Needs/Her Needs" on the counter and asked about it. I told her I had read it over the weekend and thought it had a lot of really good information, and said she could take it if she wanted to.
That is the way to do it. You don't want to try & "educate" them but this way you can get the point across that you are doing something proactive in learning.

My WW has told me she cannot try our marriage again right now.
Of course not. She's "busy." This is a typical statement. Once an affair starts, they seem to think they cannot fall back in love rather than seeing that the affair is clouding their judgement.

It feels like everything changes from one day to the next. Yesterday I felt quite strong in my spirit and faith..

Today, I don't feel nearly as strong. I spent 5 hours last night at a old friends house (he's in the middle of his 3rd divorce) and he was all over me about seeking legal counsel. He's being heavily screwed in the current divorce, and was pretty screwed with the last one.. So he thinks it's a necesity, even if we're still hoping to get back together, to make the separation legal and get all the facts straight with a lawyer.

My wife just called this morning to talk about income tax papers and insurance information that needs taken care of soon. We had a casual conversation about things with no mention of what's going on in the relationship. When she had to go, I made sure to say "I Love You".. and she responded with her now traditional "Don't love me..." so I said "When are you going to figure it out that I'm not going to stop?"

This mornings conversation has knocked my spirit and hope down by a notch or two. She just sounds like she's soo resigned to the fact there's no chance for change.. How can 4½ years of marriage (6½ years total time together) just be thrown away like this?? OVER A CAR SALESMAN!?!?!?!?!

I know I have to keep hope, keep praying, keep strong, and keep my faith that everything will work out. I have to focus on making myself a better person and keeping my health up (i've lost 8 lbs in the past 2 weeks, and STILL can't force myself to eat).. I feel hollow without her..

It just doesn't feel possible.. This goes against everything she's ever believed morally.. We were both raised in christian homes, go to church every sunday (up until January, she was our church's Adult Class Sundayschool Teacher). Now she's living with the OM (which I had no warning there ever WAS a OM until she moved in with him!!!!!!!).

All I can do is hope and pray the fog will lift and her concious will finally get to her. She's always been very morally strict with herself and everyone around her. Once she sees what it is she's doing, I know it will hit her like a ton of bricks.

Either that, or I've been with a complete stranger for 6½ years.

Who else knows about this A & OM ?. -rh-

My Mother
My Father
My Brother
My Brother's Wife

Her Mother
Her Father
2 of her Aunts (I figure they told they're respective husbands as well) Although I'm not sure to what detail they know of things. I believe all they really know is that she moved out and is living with another guy.

And I have 3 close friends who I've discussed it with, as well as our pastor. But it seems this list keeps growing from day to day. People keep calling, trying to find her and track her down. The OM's phone number is unlisted (although I got our cell phone bill last week, so I have the phone number).

She has a female friend at work she's always been close to, and I get the impression my WW has given her bits and pieces of info, but not the whole story.

Last weekend, my WW made the comment to her Mother that no one in the office really suspects anything, and they're trying to keep it that way.

As each new person finds out about it, I know it's going to be tightning the pressure on her. She's always been a moral person, and for people to know what she's doing HAS to be tearing her up inside.

I mailed her a hallmark card yesterday evening to the tune of "I miss you and hope we can be together again soon". Since I agreed I wouldn't call her and would only wait for her to call me, I'm pretty limited on the contact I can have with my WW (and likewise the EN's I can meet). But on a + side, that means my chances for LB's are a lot lower as well.

How do you reach someone so far away? My only hope is that anytime the phone rings, I'll hear her voice on the other side.

I havn't seen her in 11 days now. Since the first day we began dating, we've never gone this long without seeing eachother. I miss her terriably and love her more than I know how to express. Now, I need the matching strength and hope to 'wait it out', or some really good advise on how to meet EN's in this kind of situation.

Good, the A is out in the open. You have to avoid at all cost not to talk to her about R.

The point of plan A in here is to show her that you are capable of change or are changed. So hallmark card is good, send it once a week, trouble relationship card ... not thinking of you or loving you card. You have to respect her boundry not to call but you have to read another book, "Love must be tough".

Show to people around you that you are a changed person. However I also recomend you to change your appearance that you want to do a long time ago but gave it up. I changed my hair to a very short one, I like short hair but had given up a long time ago since my ex like me with a longer hair. I changed back my clothes to dress up from dressing down. I started going out with my friends (male) again. Basically you have to show enjoying your separation too. It will take your mind off your WW plus it will make her start looking into "what if". Your WW needs to realize that her action will have consequence of loosing you ... is she ready for it ?. You don't need to tell her by words but by your actions. I am not telling you to date or living single life but I want you to dug your trenches and change your schedule and activities to accomondate you ....

Your WW is addicted to OM. Her A will end, not now not yet but you have to avoid enabling her action by giving her a blank check on her A. Avoid to beg, avoid to show her that you are miserable and sitting by next to the telephone.
-rh-

I had to call her briefly today.. Came home from work and there was a message on the machine reguarding some medical information the Insurance Company needed from her. So I called her up @ her office and passed along the message. She then made some small talk, mentioned that I sounded good. Said she's been feeling sick (sinus problems) and had a runny nose and such. I mentioned that when she took her jewelry box, she took my cufflinks/tieclip/earrings that were in it also and she said she was really sorry and she'd bring them back with some other paperwork that she needs to bring back to me.

Then she told me she called her grandmother and told her what's going on. (complete shock, she didn't even tell ME!!!! I found out from her mother) Then I told her 2 of her aunts called looking for her, and that they knew. She already knew that herself and is going to one of their houses tomorrow to work on a financial sheet for her. (I'm hoping the 2 of them talk).

She got the card, only mentioning that a lady downstairs opens ALL the office mail, so it was already opened when she got it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . I said I was sorry, I didn't think about that, but she said it was okay.

Then I told her I didn't want to keep her from her work and told her to have a good weekend (trying to cut the converation a lil short, hoping to leave her wanting more). I said "Goodbye.. I Love You"... she only responded with "Goodbye" and hung up. Every other conversation we've had since she walked out, I end with "I Love You" and she ended with "Don't love me, it will only hurt you more".. so I think the plain goodbye may be a good sign, no?? (I hope so, anyway)

I went to the gym, and when I got back, my MIL called. She had talked with my WW today also. Aparantly, my WW's office knows about the affair now. The OM's sales manager cornered him and asked him flat out what's going on. Not sure which day this happened.. But since neither is supervising the other, they're not in any official trouble. Although my MIL said that my WW mentioned she's looking for another job in Real Estate.. My MIL asked "Now that they know, do you Have to leave?".. My WW said "Have to?... No....." and didn't say anything else.. Aparantly she's getting a hard time @ work now. (I'm hoping this is a good sign, I realllly am)

My WW seems to be reopening communications with her parents now.. That, I'm also hoping, is a good sign.

Now if she'd just talk to me more often. Being away from her like this is absolutly depressing <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I feel so lonely.. But then I get angry, because I know she's not feeing lonely (she's not alone..).. and it's her fault I'm alone and lonely...

*(&^$^ Emotional rollercoasters... One minute I feel normal.. then I feel really strong and confident.. then I feel lonely and tear up again...

So, does this sound like a good day to you guys?

As long as you are not LB'ed it was a good day. Now you have to refrain yourself from reading too much of WW's words or guessing game. Just watch her actions, she knows what she does is wrong.

Johnny, her A will last, this coaster will last but you have to outlast them all. Go out and go see late night movies ... leave her alone. The day light will start burning her A, just sit back and do nothing more than what it is.

-rh-

I know.. that's the advice I need to follow.

It's just so hard..

I'm getting on a first name basis with the people at the Gym. Going there pretty much every night after work now. I just need to stay strong, and I pray for the strength it will take.

One of my college buddies came by last night with his fiance and got me to go to dinner with them. It felt good to get out of the house and be around friends again. Getting ready for church right now. Will be going to a completly new church, so I can avoid questions from friends/family.

The Ups and Downs of this rollercoaster are enough to drive you crazy. I'm going to start writing a journal today just to keep track of how many feelings I go through in a week, and to help get some of my thoughts straight.

Here's to Plan A'ing the best I can!

I found out where 'they' are living.. Got the info through my MIL.

So last night, I couldn't stop myself from driving by. They're in a very old, run down apartment built overtop of a Pawn Shop. My WW and I have NEVER lived in such nasty conditions. She's always been particular about the apartments we rented through our college years. Quite honestly, I don't see how she can be happy there.

While driving past, I finally saw what he drives and recorded the Licence Plate # from his truck (only 2 cars anywhere near the apartment, parked side by side, and one is definatly my WW's) so I'm pretty certain the truck is his. My FIL has been wanting to find the guy's last name so he could call up his partner's in the state police and do a background check on him.. Maybe he'll make due with the guys licence plate #.

I havn't heard from my WW since Friday when I called to give her info from the insurance company. She's called my Inlaws a couple of times, but it's always to make small talk/chit chat. She doesn't want to talk on the serious matters with anyone <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I miss my wife. I miss my best friend and lover. I miss holding her in my arms, watching TV together, wrestling in the living room floor, walking through the woods... All these good memories keep flooding back and I ask myself "WHY???". We had a absolutly wonderful relationship. Everyone said we were the perfect couple, always happy, always smiling. Why is she living with another man now???

I want my wife, lover and friend back.

I think we just had a good phone conversation.

I caved and finally called her.. I know I told her I wouldn't, but I just wanted to tell her Hi and try and deposit some Love Units if possible.

I called her cell phone, and she was busy (at work) and asked if she could call me back.

5 Minutes later, she called me and we just had nice conversation about work, her being sick (sinus problems) a car accident someone she know's was in. This lasted for about 10 minutes, then she had to go deliver some paychecks, since it was closing time. She said "Goodbye" and I said "I Love you"... there was a pause and she wispered "I know...." Then I said "Goodbye".

I put on my shoes and got in my car, heading to the grocery store, feeling just a little bit better about my day.

As I was pulling into a parking space, she called me again on my Cell Phone!! She apologized for having to get off the phone in such a hurry, and we talked for another 20 minutes. We talked about a job opening at my office that one of her friends may be interested in, talked about a mutual friend and some divorce problems he's going through, even came around to talking about a haloween party we went to together dressed as Pirates! She talked about looking for a Real Estate job now that she has her licence (got it the day she walked out on me) and mentioned she needed to update her resume. I told her that it's still here at the apartment on my computer, and if she wanted to give me the info, I'd update it for her, or put it on a disk for her, or she could come over and do it herself. She paused for a moment like she was shocked at the offer and said "Thank You".

She was driving to the OM's apartment, and her cell phone was about to drop out of signal. I tried not to say it, but it still slipped out. I Said "I Miss You".. She then asked if I was doing anything to stay busy and I told her. "Work, going to the gym, and reading pretty much everything I can find that could help".. She then said "You should get a girlfriend" in a calm, every-day-kinda-thing manner. I was shocked, but replied smoothly and in the same normal tone "Sorry, but I have a wife that I still love very much"... She then said "Maybe you should find someone at the gym to flirt with".. So I responded smoothly again with "There's only one girl I'm interested in. I'm just hoping she'll give me the chance to work it out with her".. There was 2 or 3 second pause, then her phone cut out.

I sooooo wanted to call her when she got to the apartment, but I controlled myself and went into the grocery store.

She's saying I should start looking for someone else, but the whole conversation left me with more hope than I've felt in a while now. I'm hoping the good 30 minutes of conversation we got on Non Relationship topics helped meet some EN's for her. And I helped reenforce the thought in her mind that I truly do still love her, even after all she's doing to me right now.

I'd reallly love to hear some feadback on this. Do you guys think it was a good conversation????

*crosses fingers and hopes OM comes home in a grouchy mood so they have some LB's delivered to eachother while I'm in a good light in her mind*

JohnnyB:

YES! Absolutely, you did a marvelous job.

Try not to worry too much about the "find a GF" stuff. I think they all say that (mine still does from time to time). You handled those perfectly.

Just take it easy, like you're doing. I think it's good that she wanted to talk to you so much. Keep those lines of communication with her open as much as she'll let you.

-ol' Qfwfq

JohnnyB,

You did wonderfully controlling yourself. Now, you have to keep yourself from IL business w/ WW. Don't sugest anything to them, don't influence them in anyway, just take the information ... don't volunteer any infromation unless you are ask for. Reasoning behind this is that blood is thicker than water. When all of this go away, she is still their daughter.

Second, don't use any information from snooping to use it against your WW ... e.g don't call OM apartment !, she never gave you the number. You could snoop but only for gathering information nothing else.

Last, you are doing great in keeping the communication open. Do you always say I love you or I miss you to end any call before the D-day ?. Is this part of your plan A ?. i.e did she complaint about it at one point ?.

-rh-

I've ALWAYS ended every phone conversation with "I Love You" since we began dating.

But since the day I walked out on her, any time I would say it, she would respond "Don't Love Me.. You'll only get hurt more..."

This was the first time since she left that she didn't give that reply! I may be reading entirely too much into it, but I see her saying "I Know" as a good thing.

As far as the inlaw's are concerned, we share info back and forth about all our snooping habbits. They are the ones who told me where the OM's apartment is.. Sheish, they're the ones who told me she MOVED IN with OM. My MIL calls every night around 9:30 to tell me anything she may have heard from my WW, and to see if I've heard from her. We've been eachother's best support in this so far.

She see's that I'm doing my very best to use the time to make myself better, learn everything I can to make the marriage work, and honestly & truly love her Daughter. She knows that if it comes to Divorce, I will handle it decently, and if given another chance, I'll give the marriage everything I have. My MIL is my biggest supporter in trying to save my marriage (other than myself). She absolutly despises OM (so does FIL) And they reallly realllly want to see us get back together. In their mind, they still see me as the absolutly perfect SIL, and want to keep me in the family.

I know blood is thicker than water, but I don't think they're ever going to be faced with the decision between 'her' and 'me'. The issues they have with her are about her moving in with another man while married. They are VERY heavily set against extramarital affairs (both were victims of them in their earlier years of marriage) and for the fact of what she's doing alone, they are upset with her. If they do fix things, the still won't be forced to choose between us. I have every confidence in my MIL.