I have not posted on this site for a long time.
But I think I could use some advice, since I am at the moment when I think about ending my marriage.
My wife moved out few months ago. the reason she stated was that she cannot live with me as a brother, she needed a partner. At the time she moved out we had been "working" on our marriage for about 6 months(counselling, short separation,vacations together etc.)My marriage crisis started with her saying " I love you but I am not in love with you". She said she had been unhappy for about 2 years, because I was taking her for granted, and I was not behaving as myself. I undestood, started counselling, realized my faults, and changed which she acknowledeged. However, she said she cannot get the "feeling " back. So she moved out, having fun with her friends and actively looking for my replacement(found out in ner e-mail, dating web site, cell phone etc. Since she moved out she had SF with two(at least)OM. I asked her few times if it is over or what, she said she is confused she does not know what she is looking for in a man, the security, closeness and comfort I am giving her or the romantic feelings. She mentioned that she misses the conversations we have(apparently no one can talk to her the way I can) and she realizes that we are soul mates, but there is no chemistry. She is moving out to another city, but she wants me to move there too. She said that does not mean that we are going to be together all day long every day, but maybe getting to know the city together, she finding her circle of friends(and boyfriend as I find out) and me finding mine. Then she said maybe it will come back. With the information I am getting from her e-mail(she has no idea about it) and thing she says, I have a feeling that I am being used as a vehicle to get her through this hard time(I am supporting her financially, and technically i.e. fixing car, giving advice etc.) and to help her move in to the city and get established( she said she knows I am very adapting). And then I will become dispossable. What should I do, ask her what her intentions are and confront?

<small>[ March 06, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: MTheart ]</small>

I am sorry to hear of this. I wish I could say or do something to make you feel better. I understand some of what your W is experiencing about marriage/H&W relationship being less fun, less intense. Hey, at least she says you are like her brother (I know my brother is a fun guy) I tell my H he is like a mother.

I am new to all this but from reading your story maybe you should initiate plan A? I think if you stepped out of the picture, played hard to get, went out and had some fun yourself (responsible fun that is) she would begin to see more clearly.

Good luck -

Do you have kids ? what does MC say about her and you ?. Have you going through Basic Concept & read HNHN & SAA ?.

-rh-

Thank you Elli and Redhat for your responses.

I have found this web site about a year ago, and have applied the concepts since. My wife even bought the book His nededs, Her needs herself after I told her about Steve Harley and his excellent advice. She read it, but that was it. A month later she asked me to move out. As if she only found in the book that I had not been filling her needs which in pricipal gave her another excuse to leave me.

My MC thinks she should find herself alone and then maybe down the road our paths will meet again. He is the one that advised her to separate as the best solution. Thanks a lot. There has also been influence by divorced women who became her best buddies, giving her advice. As she puts it, there is no chemistry anymore and she does not want to give it a try at this moment. I asked her once whether she would be willing to consider phone counselling with Steve Harley, she said no, at least not now. She said she does not have energy and will to try to work on our marriage. But she seems to have a lot of energy to meet other men and building new relationships.

As for kids, we do not have any.

As for me MC counsellor says he sees the change and the perspective I have gained over the months of counselling with him and reading books. He feels it is genuine. But he says, the future of our marriage is no longer in my hands.
I just can't believe what is going on, after 10 years of marriage, I am just a guy from the street. My wife said once that those 10 years is history for her, and if we have any chance to be together, we should focus on what is postive and try to build on it. How? When she writes sweet e-mails to other guys, how she respect them, after few dates. How she is willig to give anything to a man she cares about. I think it is time for Plan B. Do you guys agree? I have been in plan A even though she separated from me. Basically I have been in plan A for about 10 months.

MTheart,

One more question, what had you contributed to this mess ?. i.e what was her complaints about you in M ?.

It seems that it is time for you to go to plan B. We have to go to plan B if and only if we are done with plan A and WS still reject our plan A. LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO BE MISERABLE ... I like one signature ... Pain is given but miserey is optional.

-rh-

Once again, I am not an expert on any of this, I am new here myself and my M is having difficulty. That said... I think your wife needs a lot of attention and the attention she gets from OMen makes her feel beautiful, wanted and good about herself. Unfortunately, you cannot provide this for her she needs it from the OM. The problem is this stuff is all external. She needs to learn to love herself (as cliche as that sounds). This is hard work and it sounds as if, because things are exciting for her at this point, she will not do the hard work.

At some point the reality will set in and she will realize you loved her and wanted to help heal with her. I agree with your MC. Tough love - let her know how you feel but let her go - you can't squeeze blood from a stone. It hurts I am sure because you feel disrespected, dumped and how could she do this?

I know I am trying to save my marriage. I am going to revisit EN. I think I can slip into LBing without realizing it. Have you been conscientious of your words and actions with her? Does she know you are sad, sad, sad?

I like the signature. Therefore I choose no more misery. That misery is caused by a long plan A. I have been supportive and helpful, yet she keeps looking for a guy.

You asked me what I have done to cause this, i have taken my wife for granted, spent less and less time together. But in my opinion it was not as tragic as to get immediately divorced. I was unhappy at my work and in a place where we moved to just few years ago, but I did not want to hurt her saying that, so I held my unhappiness inside hoping it will vanish. It did not, which in the end caused all this. At the time when she said she did not love me anymore, she refused to accept my unhappyness, and causes I presented to her. But about a month ago, after I returned from a long (1 month) trip, she admitted that she could see why I was unhappy where we live and in my work. She also admitted that she missed me but as a friend. It was then she revealed that she would like to move to a bigger city to get a more satisfactory job for her, and better life overall. She said I should move too to be happy again, but there was nothing about us. Since then she has been looking for guys like it was going out of fashion in that city over the internet. I can see her addicted to romantic, unmapped love. She dresses differently, spendsd lot of time in front of mirror, wants to get piercing all that stuff usual 25 year old does. She enjoys being courted by other men.

Elli, I have read your recent posts about your situation, I have nothing but words of admiration for you. You have done something I wish my wife had had. You have come for advice at the place where people value true love and responsibility. Instead, my wife keeps seeing divorced separated people who value nothing but fun, parties and romantic relationships(as many as possible). Probably same kind of people who told you that affairs are exciting. The way I see it is that my wife's decision to leave me gave these people an validation that their failed marriages and miserable lives with no real love are the way to go.

Back to your questions, I think I can honsetly say I was conscientious of my words and actions. with my wife, I do not LB, I have been there for her in any way. Jus an example, she is sick at home with flu, I called her every day how she feels, make sure she has food and pills. Help her with her assignments(she is back to school). I talk to her in a calm voice, even though I know about other men. I give her my support, domestic and financial, those ar the only needs she lets me fill. You asked me if she knows that I am very, very sad. In one of her e-mails to our mutual friend she mentioned that I was totally devastated by our situation and that I still hoped we would be back together. But apparently she does not hope anymore and wants to move on.

MTheart,

No kid & loveless M in the past few years, if you do plan B you know the outcome ... Dv is unavoidable. You have few choices, you could just hang in there and keep going, you could plan B and DV in in the pictures, you could use 'tough love' and DV will be the end of it. You have to make decision that you won't regret 10 years from now. I personally don't like plan B in this situation, you might want to use 'tough love' ... It is your life and it is your call.

Are you a Christian ? You could seek HIS guidance in this matter. I do beleive miracle do happen if you seek it and granted for the glory of HIS NAME.

-rh-

Thank you redhat for your response.
You have basically summed up my situation and fears. I know that S.Harley does not recommend plan B in the marriages without children, since the risk is too big.
As you said I am just hanging in there, waiting and seeing. There is nothing I can do but pray and hope to be led by HIM in the right direction and to the right decision. I actaully started this thread to see if there could be any other solution in the view of the other members, but I guess there is none.

So I decided to hang in there and wait. Even though I had to go to the plan AB, which is being there for her in any way, but trying to avoid her for my own sake. I basically play it by ear. And I think I will stop looking at her e-mail, since it make me so sick every time I open it. I will just let it go.

On Sunday, my and my wife had a discussion. I know, there should not be any relationship talk but I just could not resist it. It started as she was picking some pictures from our family albums. I asked her if she sent it to her partents, she said no. Then I asked if she sent it to someone other, she said yes. Then I asked, are you sending it to some man(I know she is ), she denied it and became irritated. I asked her to be at least honest with me, she said she was, that she did not see anyone etc. I said that, if there is no one, why is she so secretive, apparently because we are separated and she just needs her privacy. It ended up,, with saying, that she does not know what she wants, but knows she does not want relationship without love. I asked her, whether that meant it was over between us, she said she does not know. She said maybe she would find love again. I said how is that possible since we were separated? She said any other solution is out of question. She does not want to come back, an does not want divorce because she is not sure she wants it. But she does not know that I am aware of her activities, that she is looking for a man, that she slept with at least two basically strangers. To me it appears that whatever I offer her, she is not attracted to it, she looks for love somewhere else. Which means I am out of the picture as a partner. Am I too negative? Could it be that she is looking at other men solely because she wants to see my position in her life and decide what is really important? Or is she just playing with my heart?

Thank again. I have at least this comunity to talk to. It is tough to be alone in town at the other side of the world, away from my family and friends.

MTheart,

I hear you well. One of this day your taker will force you to go to plan B or even running to a lawyer office for Dv. However this is not healty for you self-esteem plus you are enabling her A. Yes, SH doesn't encourage plan B w/o kids but SH doesn't preach saving M at all cost !. He was the one who told me to let the Dv go through w/o a fuss. I thank him for that since I could move on w/ healed scars.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Am I too negative? Could it be that she is looking at other men solely because she wants to see my position in her life and decide what is really important? Or is she just playing with my heart?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope you are not, the outcome is not good. Her taker over take her right now, she want to follow that taker (selfishness), just think of her is intoxicated and you see the worst of her. She doesn't play your heart she doesn't care but herself right now ...

Now does she acknowledge your changes in plan A at all ?. How long had you neglected her before she snaped?

-rh-

Thank you redhat for responding to my posts.

Your remarks regarding her selfishness are right on the money. It is fuelled by her meeting the "well meaning" friends of hers, who encourage her to think of herself and only herself. They are the only ones who think of relationships as chewing gums, once they loose taste they spit it out and take another one. I can see why would my wife suddenly take this stance, we got married at fairly young age(21), and ever since we have been focused on succeding, our inner selves were casted aside to accomodate the "plans for the future". I can see now that balance is everything. We basically forgot to have fun, but to me it seems overly harsh to divorce for that reason. I might have exagerated with " not having fun", but my point is that for about 1 year now my wife has been seeing these divorced/separated/widowed friends who just party, drink and gossip. The years of being forced to be responsible have probably taken the toll on my wife and she realized that life can be something different. She feels young and attractive and wants to live. Well, that would make sense if I was opposed to it. But I agreed that last two years have been pretty bad, and I too long for a more fun in our lives. But I have not been given the chance. As if at the moment we got established in the new country, my role was fulfilled, and now when it is time to have fun and enjoy life, it is going to be with someone else.

And how long have I neglected her? She said she had been unhappy for about 2 years. During that period, I could notice her ever changing behaviour, I felt unloved, but she would not say anything specific, about her sleepless nights. That bothered me, and I became more irritated, and the vicious circle started. We were distancing form each other. Havig said that, I was kionda relieved when she said about all her concerns a year ago. I thought we could now focus what is important and we could be great couple again. I thought years of my own unhappyness were over. Little did I know that she was probably decided what to do then. Separate.

About my plan A, she has acknowledged changes many times, recently it was after I returned from 1 month trip, she waited for me at the airport(even though her friends advised her not to go), she hugged me like never before, we kissed. Then we had a talk at home. She said she missed me, the talks we have, and that she could see how I changed, "but it is not enough". She does not know how she can find love in me. That is what has been there for a year.

MTheart,

This is my 2¢. Search what is "fun" to you, not work but balance in life. Skiing, flying, diving, bowling, go to concert, go to theater play, having a drink or two with male buddies ... try it and seek which one or more are for "new you". You could even start from WW's definition of fun (minus philandering and drinking or getting stoned) and see if you would and could live with it. This activities would be yours for now on. Close your plan A with this and hand her plan B letter after she notice your changes ...

-rh-

Ever since I discovered she lives a double life(in one saying to me she does not know what she wants, in the other one dating other men, talking over the phone with them for hours, sleeping with some etc.)I am contemplating a strict plan B. For my own sake and self esteem. The last hope of any change is coming up-she is going home for a month, to see her parents(she has not seen them in 3 years), where she'll revisit our past, meet our friends. First time as separated. After that I am planning a serious talk and confront her with all the evidence I have gathered so far. It will be a break or make discussion. I will have my plan B ready. In the meantime I am skiing, playing hockey, tennis, meeting new friends.

Should I wait until then or it does not really matter? It is only 8 weeks away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MTheart:
<strong>Should I wait until then or it does not really matter? It is only 8 weeks away.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would wait. To give more time to let her see that you have your own life if she has not seen yet. 8 weeks is nothing compare to how long you have waited ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Please don't confront her or talk to her about her A ... it is a bad way to close your plan A. Second as a rule of tumb, snooping result are not for "putting" her on the spot. It is use for you later to gauge how honest she is with you if it ever come to that point. You could ask her later.

Yes, strict plan B is in order. I am still in it even after Dv. It was for me and now it is for her !. You will have your feeling disappear after a while. It is a true test last night ... I had a bad feeling and I went to skating rink. This is exW custody week. My hunch was right, my oldest D broke her arm. My exW was breaking down, she is under stress on A. I took charge and bring them to emergency. It was amazing I don't have any feeling at all to her. She tried to talk to me but I only answering logistic about my D. I knew she needed someone to calm her down and put arm around her but I had no desire to do so. I was there for my D not her. I let her on her own. This plan B was for me to make me stronger now I continue to plan B for her to move on with her own new life. She still stuck in the 'coaster that she has created and I don't want any part of it, she has OM to run to. I forgave her already but I will never forget about what she has done. I make a choice to plan B forever.

-rh-

Hi Redhat, I can see myself doing exactly the same things you are after my Dv will have been completed. It is unfortunate to see that people engage in affairs just to see that the real love was what they left behind, as I can see your ex realizes.
As for my feelings, they are disappearing at an alarming rate, especially after I see what rag my wife makes herself of. She is virtually pursuing the men, which would be scary for any thinking male, I mean the ones who think with their brains instead their b**ls. She is going headlong and the outcome of it is almost sure.

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Quote:
She still stuck in the 'coaster that she has created and I don't want any part of it, she has OM to run to.
------------------------------------------------

That basically sums it up for me too, I know she needs me, she admitted it many times. As if she is holding onto me until she has found the replacement, which will signal a "smooth transition". Little does she know I watch her every step.
Today she bought an airline ticket to see OM next week. We were supposed to go on a trip together the folowing day, I wonder what excuse she comes up with to cancel our trip or to postpone it. We planned this almost 2 months ago.

It seemed like a perfect time to conforont her without admitting to snooping( I could claim somebody saw her at the airport). But I guess I will wait till 8 weeks from now, like you wrote, redhat, I can ask her and confront her later. I have been using the snooping only to see her mind in a clearer picture. Before I found out about all this, I trusted her with whatever she said. I could never have imagined her laying to me like this. That is what kills my love leftovers.

MTheart,

I like theLordOfTheRings. I equate the power of theOneRingThatRulesThemAll with A ... no one could resist it if you look at it. The most tragic is Gollumn story, a victim of that ring. I will give you a link to the Gollum's song. I do beleive that this is the song for my exW and yours WW. Word of warning, it is not for the faint of heart and get plenty of tissues and lock your office door while listening. I can't take this song it is still teared my heart apart everytime I hear it.
-rh-

I cannot really lock myself in the office, but I printed out the lyrics of the song. I will keep them with the rest of my "mariage breakdown" files.

My marriage counsellor was actually correct as a far as my wife's intentions were at the time of our separation. He was convincing her to tell me the truth-that she was gonna find love somewhere else.
At my last session (6 months ago), he praised me for the work I had done and the perspective I had gained, i.e. seeing the power of the ring. He said he had wished my wife had done the same-as you said it, everybody is attracted to the ring. They will eventually fall victim to it, and then there will be no return home. What is worst, I think she realizes this partially, but her hormones have gotten better of her. She mentioned many times, that maybe she will one day realize this and will have to fight for me. She knows I am her soul mate and a friend. But does not want to do squat about it. Like someone on this post replied, she realizes that it takes a commitment and hard work on her part, but she is so consumed by her selfishness and all the attention by other men that she does not want to see it.