Well, I'd say the tide has begun to turn. And it truly has turned. For a quick history for those who don't know my story, H has had numerous affairs starting 8 months into our marriage. In July, I asked for a divorce, H got diagnosed as a sexual addict, and I found MB. Started Plan A'ing. In Dec 02, H confessed to ALL the A's. In Jan 03, H "ended" A's. H continued major LB'ing and lying. After a solid 8 month Plan A, I moved on to Plan B and H moved out last Friday.

I wrote him a Plan B letter telling him how much I loved him and what I needed from him in order to be willing to consider taking him back. Despite this, H continued to come over whenever he was missing me. After a few days of this, I put my foot down yesterday and told him that I did not want him coming over or calling unless it was specifically for our daughter during agreed upon times or in an emergency.

H did not like this and left with tears in his eyes. Despite worrying that I was sending him straight into the arms of any of the OW (plural), I stood my ground and told him that he knows what he needs to do to be welcome here as anything other than our daughter's father. I told him that I loved him but that I deserved better.

When he comes over today to pick up our daughter for a 3 day weekend, he brought me a flower arrangement with all of my favorite flowers in it. He told me that the florist thought he was nuts, but he insisted on picking out each flower himself. It's a very "busy" arrangement, but I thought it was sweet. Check out the note that he attached to it.

"Lorac My Love

I'll do anything it takes to have you back in my life again. Lorac, I love you so much. I have learned my lesson. I will never hurt you again. I mean it. I never knew how much I loved you, but man it's true. All I want is to be Mrs. and Mr. Lorac. I will think of your every need, want, and anything else. I want to come home baby. I need you, want you, and can't stand to live without you. I am so sorry. No more foolishness on my part.

To the love of my life.
Mr. Lorac

PS- I really miss you Lorac and if you are free on Saturday, I would love to go do something with you."

I'm impressed. Talk about trying to get back in my good graces. While I was thanking him for the flowers and the note, he busted past me into the house. My first thought was "oh no, he's going to camp out on the couch and demand to stay." Instead, he frantically switched the radio station that I had playing. A trigger song of mine had come on. He heard it before I did and changed the station.

I thanked him for it, and told him that I still needed him to demonstrate that this new stuff was permanent and not just a put on to get me to take him back. I told him that I had plans for this weekend, but that I might be interested in taking a raincheck if things continued to go well. He asked me if I was planning on getting revenge. I assured him that I wasn't interested in getting revenge, but that I was interested in exploring my passions and rediscovering myself as an individual (not mom or wife). He kept prying, but I continued to be vague. I could tell that his curiousity was getting to him. I gave him a hug and told him that I really liked the flowers and note. I told him that he was heading in the right direction.

lorac,

You are doing well. You should not take him back until you feel safe. It is his reponsibilities to make you feel safe to come back home again. Include IC to control his SA first, he needs professional intervension. For now you could lifted NC and proceed with cautions.

-rh-

Wow lorac - way to go. I agree with Redhat - definitely he needs IC!
Stand your ground and enjoy those flowers!

Thanks Redhat and Alberta. H has been in IC since July for his SA and depressive disorder issues. He's been dragging his feet on NC with OW and continues to work with them. While the A's were hard to deal with, the neglect and insensitivity made our marriage not worth fighting for and it was what led up to me finally wanting a divorce this past July.

He's very skillful at saying whatever he thinks someone wants to hear and he is very good at pulling out the charm whenever there is something in it for him. As soon as he gets what he wants, he pulls it all back and goes right back to the way he wants to be which is nothing short of a jerk. While part of me wants to believe his gesture at face value, the other part of me doesn't buy into it. I want to know that his sincerity is true and not an act.

I suppose I did open the door a crack because I did tell him that I would call him tonight and we would talk about starting to spend some time together. I'm not sure that I feel strong enough to spend time around him just yet. Talking to him on the phone is going to be hard enough. I honestly don't know whether or not I ever want him back. I kind of like having peace around me. Considering how hard I've worked for this marriage, I know that is insane, but it's true.

I suppose it wouldn't hurt to think about spending a little time around him and see how it goes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lorac:
<strong>I suppose it wouldn't hurt to think about spending a little time around him and see how it goes.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Under one condition, did he send NC to OW and end A ?. If no then you should not even talk to him !. You are sending a mix signal. I am sorry to say this but you probably already know it, he is a philanderer. If you go w/o his commitment, you plan A effort & plan B letter is worth a flower arrangement. Sorry ...

You only remove NC in plan B only if you need to see if he is ended his A and is committed to send NC to OW. I didn't see it in his letter nor you mention it from your converstation with him.

-rh-

H still works with the FOW (plural) which is bothersome and that's why I had put in the Plan B letter that we move back to my hometown and he gets another job as a result. He is in NC with them despite this. He had a very public falling out with them in which he told them to leave him alone. One of the FOW was very persistant and continued to make advances towards him. Instead of a NC letter, he filed a sexual harrassment complaint against FOW and spilled his guts to his bosses. He risked getting fired, but instead was put on warning only because he was upfront with them and is being watched. Since then, she has left him alone. So I suppose his written sexual harrassment complaint against her was even better than a NC letter.

Even with this, I still wanted H to find a job elsewhere. He balked saying that he already took care of everything so there was no "need" for him to get another job even though the MB principles are clear about this. It was through this and other things that he was doing (LB's) that I realized that our marriage problems weren't because of his A's. They were because of his selfishness, insensitivity, and thoughtlessness. The fact that he still works with FOW is keeping me in turmoil even though I have spies there.

This is when I decided that I am moving back to my hometown where all of my family is whether it is with or without him. Unfortunately, I am having to wait until the end of the school year so that my son can finish out the school year and I can have a chance to sell my home. His LB's have really got me beat down and I reached the point where I was ready to move into Plan B.

In my Plan B letter, I told him that moving back to my hometown was my choice and he was free to choose whether or not he wanted to be with me there, but that staying here was not an option for me given the painful memories and lack of support that I had here. He also had to read the Love Busters book front to back (no skipping around to learn just enough to get by) and apply it to his life if he wanted to try to work things out.

I did go over there this evening. H had been reading the book. He told me what all he discovered about himself and sees where I would be ready to end our marriage because he had been pulling every love buster listed. He told me that he understood how scared I was to give him another chance and that he would take it slow and practice asking himself how each of his actions would make me feel. He said that he had the advantage of knowing how he won my hand when we were dating and that he made a huge mistake to change after we got married. One of the things he did back then was not ever rush me emotionally or physically. He said he was going back to what worked. He actually seemed sincere and remorseful and he kept apologizing every time I turned around. It was nice.

I did give him a kiss and a hug as I was leaving. I was too scared and nervous to stay too long. I invited him over for dinner tomorrow so we'll see how this goes. So far so good. I did ask him who he was and what he did with my husband. I actually enjoyed myself around him for a change.

lorac,

Good, you terminate plan B if WS ended A and put NC and start ammending you. However you have to be carefull and for starter let WH fillin your ENs and avoid LB .... in other word, terminate plan B and let WH do plan A.

Let him make you feel secure and take your time to take him back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Let him know that working at the same place doesn't make you feel secure. In MB, it is not dead stone that WH has to move job, as long as there is absolutly no contact. OW might move out first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> . -rh-

<small>[ March 30, 2003, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

I would agree about moving jobs, but there are 4 FOW there that he had been involved with there at the end. Three others did leave already and with the rest, the A's died a natural death. He has the reputation haunting him now. He admits that the most difficult part of this is to break other people's poor expectations of him. It also makes me worry since he is in the same environment he was able to carry on so many A's in and people are expecting him to behave like he use to. The same opportunities exist for things to get out of hand again.

I truly do want to move back to my hometown. His A's have been horribly isolating. The only people I know around here are members of H's family. I can't even go to the grocery store without running into at least one FOW while I'm there. I can't go anywhere without seeing a place where H took FOW for a rendevous. This is his hometown and he knows everyone. The "bubba" factor is alive and well where we live. I want to get back around people who know me, love me, and support me.

I guess I have let down my guard a little and I'm now giving him opportunities to show me his Plan A. I've had so many empty promises from him that I'm leary of it all. He is quite a charmer and well practiced in the art of telling a woman whatever he thinks they want to hear. His actions have not lived up to his sweet words in the past. Once he gets what he wants, he drops the ball. I will be taking it very slow and let him know that I'm not settling for half-way. He has a lot of proving to do. I am pleased with what I have seen so far.

lorac,

Good, you know what you want. Yes, you have to be very carefull, no disrespect but WH is a philanderer, you have handle him correctly so far. Please put moving back to your hometown as part of his ammends. Tell him that it is for you and it is not to punish him.

Enjoy his plan A ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> -rh-

I agree. H is a player. He had a basic pattern with all of his A's. He would tell them just about anything that they wanted to hear so long as there was something in it for him (ego stroking and sex). He would string them back and forth. He would sometimes break things off when they would start pushing for more from him or whenever there was a close call on getting caught just to make sure that they weren't getting too emotionally attached and would still be willing to go away quietly when he really did dump them which he would do anytime he wasn't able to talk his way out of meeting their demands on him such as leaving me for them or giving them time, attention, affection, or whatever. He reasoned that they were in it for the same thing he was in it for or else they wouldn't allow themselves to be disrespected and used that way. Because of this, I truly feel for these FOW that he messed around with. I know how charming he can be and he has the ability to make any woman feel she is special so long as he has hopes that he can get what he wants from her. It's sad because I fell for it too, but I did go into this marriage thinking that I would be the only woman in his life. I hold no ill will towards the FOW that he works with even though they were playing with fire and enabling his philandering. It was him that chose to philander. This is why I am so slow to warm up to him. I did tell him in my letter that moving back to my hometown was for me and explained why. He's totally supportive of it now. I just got off the phone with him and I was shocked to hear him tell me that what he had been doing to me was emotional abuse and that he was very sorry. No justifications. No downplaying. No excuses. Just that he was very sorry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lorac:
<strong>He's totally supportive of it now. I just got off the phone with him and I was shocked to hear him tell me that what he had been doing to me was emotional abuse and that he was very sorry. No justifications. No downplaying. No excuses. Just that he was very sorry.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't let your guard down ... ever. Your H is twin brother of my exW's OM. This is the story that will give you a chill. After about 17 years of M, suddently OMW found out that he is philandering. She was batteling with his addictions like you did. He come home and start conseling with MC that uses MB. He do radical honesty for that moment during the conseling. Guess what ?. 4 years later OMW caught him with my exW. What went wrong ? ... OMW told me that her LB$ was overflowing and she thought his too. (I do believe his too). However OMW got too comfortable and let her guard down ... she ignored a lot of sign and take his explanation of unaccounted time as is.

Sorry to say this ... this SAA that you gave him would make him a excelent H but a very dangreous predator if he ever get loose !. Even SH told me not to compete with OM, since exW shut out all ENs for me and do NC against me ... under OM's directions. I hate to say this but you have the responsibilty not to let him loose by keep monitoring & account on his where about and his money and fillin his ENs to the zilt. Otherwise I feel sorry for the next OW. Never let your guard down with philanderer or ex-philanderer, it is their nature.

I agree totally. H is already one smooth operator. The additional knowledge will make him very dangerous. I go in tomorrow to talk to his doctors and counselors. He has an extraordinary ability to pull one over on them and they use me as the litmus test of his progress. I know his every move. My father was an investigator for over 20 years. Even though he is retired from that life now, he taught me a few things that have come in handy.

What saddens me is that I know that will have to live the rest of my life looking over his shoulder if I remain with him. It's because of this that I want to move to my hometown even if we do get back together. It will be much easier for me to keep tabs on him. On top of that, if we do get back together, my H will be working with my father which should be very interesting.

The belief that I was not meeting his EN's so that he was open to an A is where I differ with the MB principles. I was doing an excellent job of meeting his EN's. He was doing a lousy job of meeting mine. He took advantage of me and took me for granted. I have serious reservations and that is why I am so resistant about buying into his efforts. The past between us has really jaded me. Actually, it has smashed my rose-colored glasses so that I can't see him as anything other than what his actions have portrayed him as: a player.

I do feel sorry for the FOW that got tangled in his web. It was out of a sense of public duty to be so supportive of his counseling efforts. I also wanted him to have his act together enough to serve as some kind of role model for our daugher since he was going to be around her. I know that this is really out there, but another one of the requirements for me to take him back is for him to undergo hypnosis with a professional of my choosing. I don't trust him as far as I can throw him and I want to know his intentions as well as to verify/clarify certain things about the past. I know that it sounds pathetic that I would feel it necessary to take such measures while entertaining the thought of ever getting back together with him.

<small>[ March 31, 2003, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: lorac ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lorac:
<strong>The belief that I was not meeting his EN's so that he was open to an A is where I differ with the MB principles. I was doing an excellent job of meeting his EN's. He was doing a lousy job of meeting mine. He took advantage of me and took me for granted. I have serious reservations and that is why I am so resistant about buying into his efforts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMVHO, MB recognized philanderer. It is catagorized as addiction and it is adviced not even to try plan A. Tough Love should be used. It is make sense, there is nothing to do for plan A at all.

Be a skillfull taker, train & suck as much as you can for H to fillin your ENs but fillin his too.

I am sorry for your situation finding H like this but I am glad at the same time since H will find his match <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I think you know what to do and how to put a leash on his neck. My last opinion is for you to guard yourself from A as much as you put H under control.

Keep us updated -rh-

Thanks Redhat. I had started this out as a move to divorce, but changed it to a Plan B. I must be insane for even considering trying to work things out. Guarding myself against an A has been on the forefront of my mind. So far, seeing all men who would make any kind of an advance on me as a married women as a version of my H has turned my stomach enough to keep me away from that. I don't want to be used or played that way.

I do wish that I would have taken the tough love approach sooner. I don't feel so helpless anymore. I don't regret having done Plan A though. It did help restore my self-esteem and empower me to the point where I was capable of going to Plan B.

H did come over for dinner and it went well. I'm going to see him again today when I talk to the people working with him on his issues. Thanks for being so supportive Redhat.

Moving back over to D/D. I simply can't take anymore and I'm moving on with my life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lorac:
<strong>Moving back over to D/D. I simply can't take anymore and I'm moving on with my life.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a sad day. Actually if H is serious about working on M, all you need to do is make sure he keep doing 4 rules of recovery. You should give him at least time for your plan B to work out, it will be a while 'till you are Dv anyway. However I don't blame you for it. I would not have the stomach either.

Send my regard to not peach in GA ... at D/D.

-rh-

<small>[ April 01, 2003, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

H came over yesterday to complete our tax returns after he got off of work. While he was here, we did get a chance to talk a little bit. It stunned me a little when he apologized and told me that he had made the mistake of treating all of this like a game where he didn't take my concerns seriously and thought that all he had to do was be on his best behavior to smooth things over so that I would allow him to move back home.

He said that it hit him hard when I didn't budge on my expectations and continued to be so emotionally distant. He said that he took a hard look at himself and realized that he hadn't been taking me seriously. He told me that he was going to continue getting counseling, but that he was going to work on himself. I fell back on my standard Plan B response where I told him that I will always love him and that I wanted to be able to reconcile with him, but that I would not participate in an unhealthy relationship where his passive-aggressiveness kept me in a no-win situation.

He asked me how I could still be nice to him and be supportive of him getting help despite how he has cheated on me and been really crappy to me. I told him that it was because I truly loved him and cared for him as a person regardless of whether or not we got back together and would like to see him get on healthier ground just for him and his future happiness.

I suppose I have finally reached that point where I can go comfortably into DV or continue to want to try to reconcile, but in an emotionally detached kind of way until he shows some concrete progress. It will take a while for any DV to go through given that I haven't even filed for a legal separation yet for financial reasons. I hope you guys don't mind if I hang around here a bit longer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lorac:
<strong>I suppose I have finally reached that point where I can go comfortably into DV or continue to want to try to reconcile, but in an emotionally detached kind of way until he shows some concrete progress. It will take a while for any DV to go through given that I haven't even filed for a legal separation yet for financial reasons. I hope you guys don't mind if I hang around here a bit longer.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hang in thee and vent in here. Let the dust settled down. It is easier to do plan A/B or tough love or 180 degree if you have no expectation at all at the outcome.
-rh-

H went back to his psychiatrist the other day and I wrote the doctor a letter to inform him of what was going on. H is going to go to a different counselor now because the doc thinks his all of his issues are part of a bigger problem called passive-aggressive personality disorder. The doc changed his meds.

I have been reading up on passive-aggressive personality disorder and it does fit my H. When I was reading about it, I could have sworn that they were looking at my H when they wrote the articles. It gives me a great deal of insight into how H ticks. It explains the A's. They were H's way of getting back at me for things he perceived as wrongdoings against him. It also explains the smoldering resentment that he seems to be going through life with.

It scares me that his insensitivity was deliberate and that his desire to get even with me led to his desire to want to see me get hurt and upset. My confusion came because I never knew what I had done to bring any of it on. Now I see that anything that I did or did not do regardless of what it was gave him ammunition to use against me. It scares me. He would set me up to disappoint him by telling me that he felt one way on something while actually feeling the exact opposite so that when I used POJA, I would upset him regardless of what I did.

Because of this new information, I am having to re-write my Plan B conditions to include making progress with his passive aggressive issues as determined by myself and his counselor.