I'm not feeling good today. Feeling hopeless at all. I'm trying very hard to work on our R but he keeps distance from me. He has very little intention to work things out. I think he is in the stage of 'withdrawal'. I keep close connection to his family that I didn't do in the past. I openly talked with him about feelings and thoughts that I didn't do in the past. Those are from the bottom of my heart, not fake. He knows it but didn't impress him. He told me he has no feeling on me at all but he never ask me to leave. Sometimes, he did something that really hurt me and pissed me off but I have to stay calm and don't do LBers to him. It's very hard to bear. It's not all my fault that contribute to this bad R. Can someone tell me that it's still worth staying if I keep the faith? Am I too emotional? not rational at all?I need some words of wisdom.

Do you believe in miracle? Do you think if love has gone/died, it will be back one day? People tell me to let it go but I still love him. I hope the storm will over and I still hope one day he will return to my arms again but today I feel hopeless.

YWM,

You are the only one who could answer that question, it is very personal. It is hard when OP drop your WS and WS is still in the fog. One thing that is going for you ... there is no more threat from OW. Hope she do NC. I would focus on which ENs that is left by OW and learn to fill it. Find out his top 5 ENs and learn to do them all, find ot about his LB and avoid it at all cost. You know if your WS doesn't reject you to fillin his ENs ... doesn't reject talking straight and spending time together ... give him 3-6 months ... the feeling would be restore. However you have to make sure the OW is really out of the picture.

-rh-

Thanks for your reply redhat. I can't make sure the A is really ended. I can't employ a PI to check him daily but I'm sure he doesn't bring the OW back to home after I returned from the trip. Ending a relationship is more difficult than starting a relationship. I don't think it's easy to do NC for both of them. Now I learn to trust my intuition.

One of the problems I'm facing now is don't know how to break the ice between us. We feel like strangers. Last evening, I asked him out for a dinner in a fancy restaurant and then went home. He was just watching TV and we didn't talk the whole night and then went to bed. I want to hold him and kiss him but he was cold as ice. I'm not sure how long I can stand if he keeps treating me like that.

YWM,

I am on the road, @Fresno,CA for my 2 D competitions. I don't have my notebook. I have a notes from a class by David Carper ??(Thorn Asunder's author). It is a baby step to do list that might help you. I will be bcak on Saturday and will post that steps for you. My Q is "How was your M" from the begining 'till D-day ?. Any significant moment ? ... good or bad ?. You could use that as "Do you remember ... ?". Try to discuss something that is memorable ... kodak moment would be nice. It is not heavy talk but to bring up "memorable moments" in the past and how both of you could look back. Good moment would bring warm feeling ... bad moment would bring up how both of you survived it.

About OW and his A ... if you are not sure, always assume the worst. A is still going.

-rh-

Thanks Redhat. Looking forward to hearing the list from you soon.

Yes, your suggestion is good. I have tried this similar before by playing and watching Pink Floyd CD VCD together that we both like. It brought conversation between us. I don't think the OW likes that kind of music as it is not popular in here and she is quite young; seldom people here know this 38-year-old great band. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yes, I like them too that means I have a lot of gray hair already <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ... btw, how old is OW ?. You know A won't last, you just have to hang long enough in there, you could outlast this A. In MB, we believe "in love feeling" could be recreated by doing 4 rules of recovery. Fillin ENs, Avoid LBs, Quality time and honesty. The only requirement is that BF would not reject you, i.e. willing to receive it. Before long, BF would not know how he gets his feeling back. I would sugest you to print out ENQ & LBQ and fill one out as if he is filling it out for you. Guess his top ENs and learn how to fillin it. Guess his LB triggers and avoid it at all costs. In Quality time, you have to make it safe for him to talk ... even men like to talk, just the subject has to be the right one. In recovery the best subject is "past R". Learn how to "talk" even from watching TV together. I learn to watch SmallVille, Gilmore Girl, Everwood, and other "young teen" programs and turn it into discussion with my 2 D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I learn how my 2 D view the world ... About honesty, you have to be honest about your feeling and learn how to express it w/o triggering LBed. Read HNHN, it a must reading, read the Language of Love to open a harden heart and also men r from mars and women r from venus.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Yes, I like them too that means I have a lot of gray hair already </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">rh, you make me laugh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I like them but I don't have grey hair!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>btw, how old is OW ?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know her age. I guess 28 or 29.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> You know A won't last, you just have to hang long enough in there, you could outlast this A. In MB, we believe "in love feeling" could be recreated by doing 4 rules of recovery. Fillin ENs, Avoid LBs, Quality time and honesty. The only requirement is that BF would not reject you, i.e. willing to receive it. Before long, BF would not know how he gets his feeling back. I would sugest you to print out ENQ & LBQ and fill one out as if he is filling it out for you. Guess his top ENs and learn how to fillin it. Guess his LB triggers and avoid it at all costs. In Quality time, you have to make it safe for him to talk ... even men like to talk, just the subject has to be the right one. In recovery the best subject is "past R". Learn how to "talk" even from watching TV together. I learn to watch SmallVille, Gilmore Girl, Everwood, and other "young teen" programs and turn it into discussion with my 2 D <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I learn how my 2 D view the world ... About honesty, you have to be honest about your feeling and learn how to express it w/o triggering LBed.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">rh,I understand the important of these four rules of recovery but he doesn't know. He doesn't want any outside help. He is not rejecting me but he seems not willing to receive from me. BTW, as I said before, it's not easy to end A. I found out this morning they are together again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I pretent I don't know it but I am so sad. Everything back to day one again.

Sorry I have to go now as I am in a coffee shop and it's time to close. Talk to you later.

YWM,
Again, it is not about the A but it is about fixing what has under your control and hope it is enough to salvage your M. David Carder's exercises are not for both of you, at least his goal is getting beyond marital betrayal. He is still in it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> .

You are very strong woman. Keep this info about his contact with OW hidden for now until you figure out what you want to do.

The key in MB is the person doesn't need to do anything but to let you to do 4 rules to fall in-love. It is very hard for you since you should not expect anything !. Do your best on 4 rules and let it sit for a few months ... when you are ready, hand him plan B. Basically saying I love you and I still beleive in this M but Iuntil you want to work on M I won't have nothing to do with you since I don't want to go nuts.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Again, it is not about the A but it is about fixing what has under your control and hope it is enough to salvage your M. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are right. At this stage, I should focus on myself and the R between me and BF rather than the A as I can do nothing to it.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep this info about his contact with OW hidden for now until you figure out what you want to do.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did let him know I have already known they are back together. I must do that as he brought the OW home again. That's intolerable. He crossed the boundry again. I didn't ask him why but I asked him gently whether he wants me to move to the house and stay seven days a week. He said nothing. No blame, no fight, no angry face and no selfish demand. With great pain in my heart but still hang on my plan. I feel the same as what EdensSecret said she wanted to shake the WS and woke him up.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do your best on 4 rules and let it sit for a few months ... when you are ready, hand him plan B.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just wonder it is suitable to implement plan b in my case as we are not married yet and we have no children. In other words, we don't have responsibilites to each other. If I give him NC letter, I'm afraid he may go to the OW forever.

Yesterday, I had a bad headache and didn't go to work. He called me from the office and asked whether I was OK. He bought me lunch to home. I gave him a hug and kiss before he went back to the office. It's the first time I showed him my appreciation. He called me again at 4:30pm and asked about my headache. I was very pleased he did this to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . He still cares me, but I don't know it's love. (love between lovers or just love between friends).

BTW, I have read 'Men from Mars and Women from Venus'. I have asked him to spend some time on it but he's indifferent. I'm not living in US, it's a bit difficult to purchase books like HNHN and SAA that I'm interested.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YWM:
<strong>I just wonder it is suitable to implement plan b in my case as we are not married yet and we have no children. In other words, we don't have responsibilites to each other. If I give him NC letter, I'm afraid he may go to the OW forever.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It works the same but you are right about pushing him. Specially if he is a conflict avoidant type. He wants you to end it for him. You might have to let him chase you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>He still cares me, but I don't know it's love. (love between lovers or just love between friends).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In MB in-love could be restore as long as he allows you to fillin his need and you avoid LB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I'm not living in US, it's a bit difficult to purchase books like HNHN and SAA that I'm interested.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have credit card ? ... order it directly. However Harley's put all the concepts in this site, for free <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Just curious where do you live ?

-rh-

rh, I always appreciate you for offering me advice. Thanks.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just curious where do you live ?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I live in Venus. Ha Ha! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Just kidding. I live in Hong Kong. I know there is a special procedure for international orders, maybe I can email MB for details. Yes, I have read the table of contents of some of the books, they are more or less the same as the concepts and Q&A Columns in this site. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Last night, I went to WBF home. He was not there. Then, he came back with the OW. He once again ignored what I said to him! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> He sent the OW back to her home and after he was back. We had a long talk till 1:00am. He again told me the same things how he feels about the OW and me. He can't let her go because he really loves her. He believes they can stay happily together though he said they have their own problems. He never ask me to leave because he can't do that as I have done nothing wrong. He doesn't think we can work things out as I hurt and ignored him too long in the past. He has no confidence in our future. He thinks he's not the man can make me happy. Despite knowing my love to him is much more deeper than the OW, he can't make decision.

Suddenly, all my faith gone. I feel that three of us are all stuck in this situation because of me. If I leave, case will be closed. All of us will start a new life no matter happy or not. Today, I feel bad again. I puked this morning. I can't eat and concentrate on work. I want to cry but have to hold my tears back. I want to control my emotions but I'm just a woman. I'm not so strong as what you said redhat. Every morning, I don't want to wake up as I have to go through the day and feel the pain again. Thanks for this site that I can vent, makes me feel a bit better.

After the talk, we went to bed. He showed his care like asked me whether the air-con temperature was OK to me; told me to brow the hair dry thoroughly before bed. He held me, kissed me and we made love. Though I have the desire he do that to me for long(He hasn't touched me for almost a month), I was confused and lost. Why he did this to me? Is he giving me false hope? I'm going crazy!

Disclaimer ... I will tell it like it is. This is just my personal opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by YWM:
<strong>Why he did this to me?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because he can and you let him.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[b]Is he giving me false hope?[/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, he is just a cake eater
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I'm going crazy!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure. You need to seek your doctor and get anti depressant medication ASAP.

Now you have to decide ... you know there is 5 ways to go in a cross road ?. Staying put is not an option. Listen, you are still young and still could build a family. I watch "Joy Luck Club" and one advice that the mom gave to the BW ... "you know your value and don't let anyone tell you otherwise". I am chinese decendant, wh@t the h3ck r u doing to your life ? ... having BF for 17 years w/o comitment ?. You don't even do that in USA. You were just 18 back then ... but now you are adult enough to make tough decision.

You are wrong about not strong enough ... It is easier to make a split decision and be done .... it takes a lot stonger to endure 17 years <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . I can't take it more than 1 year ... I counter filed and get my status changed to Dv and I have no regret about it. I don't know all the detail about your background and his background. My sugestion to you is stand up and do "tough love" or plan B. If you are in US I sugest you to get MB conseling to get guidance to decide and walk into plan B. If there is any hope of fullfilling R or M in your future with him it has to be now.

-rh-

Thanks redhat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I will consider seeking help from my doctor. I haven't decided what's the next step yet. Continuing plan A, implement plan B or go straightly to plan C (goodbye forever). He withdrew a lot of love units from my bank. Fine! I'll let him withdraw until deficit.

I have enrolled in a evening course of Chinese Calligraphy. I'm planning to join Caritas for volunteer service. I should focus on myself, keep myself busy and take this opportunity to meet more people.

Good luck to myself and all the posters. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />