TMCM, couldnt agree with you more, still does not alleviate the hurt I have over their denial(in-laws) which enables the A., Like I said before, being a parent of married children myself, I would have shown enough concern to find the FULL story.

Anyhow what a small world it is, her cousin who I am very close friends with just called.

When I retired from the police dept., he attended the party and became friendly with several of the officers there.

He, the cousin ran into one of them at the store and told the cousin ALL ABOUT THE WIFE'S A, seems like her family is going to find out after all, without me having to say a word.

He simply could not believe it, as i have heard from many that knew me and the W, you guys were the happiest couple we knew, you had the perfect marriage.

Hate this, but here we go.

Last week I told her if she ws going to sign the lease I was going to sell the house, too big for myself to live in.

She came by last night, I'm not sure why, but she said to get things planned as to what we were going to do. She again asked me to reinance and keep the house, Said no, wouldnt do that, not to be rude as I explained, but I was not going to be mortgage poor.

I also if she wanted a divorce, again, yes, she did, she could no longer live in this house as she did not feel comfortable.

Weellll, today the listing agent is to arrive at 7Pm., W calls, seems she doesnt want to give up the house after all, asked me to refinance, we will seperate for 6 more months (only been a week so far) and after 6 mos., if she decides the marriage will work, which she said she did not want to give me any false hope, she will work on it at that time.

My reply, OK, I put my life on hold for 6 mos while you try out you relationship with the OP, if it doesnt work with him, then you'll be back, I will not do that.

I told her the only way I would agree to a 6 mos. seperation, if I was GOING to keep the house was to a no contact agreement with the OP, she agrees to this(for about the 6th time). She states she needs some time alone to think things out.

Anyhow for the first time she states that if our marriage is going to work, she is going to have to change jobs,,,,(news flash) and she is unsure if she can do that, but does state that it is unfair to the OP to stay working there as he is getting a divorce because of this A.

What a frigging roller coaster, but at least there seems to be some reality setting in here, not much, but some.

Mean time, we are going to have to pay a rent and a mortgage at the same time, which is going to leave us strapped, but if it saves the marriage,,,,

Sorry rookie but unless she contributes to paying the mortgage on the house while you two are separated, that plan is definitely going to send you to the poorhouse. And on top of this, unless you hire a prive P.I. to watch your WW around the clock, she can still be seeing the OM behind your back. My vote is for you to continue to proceed with your original plan of selling the house.

i think that a reality check is called for at this point.

your ww is still in the throws of her affair but can't stand the thought of YOU selling what i'm sure she considers to be HER house! LOL and so you are actually ready to consider her feelings in this matter?

my friend...at what point does one finally decide that one can't and shouldn't allow themselves to be controlled by the sick machinizations of a cheating spouse. i'm sure that your ww is a nice person but letting her chose the music your dancing to is the same as allowing a junkie to have your atm card.

the junkie will swear not to use the money for dope but you know that he/she will. because he/she can't help him/herself anymore then your wife can help herself. and while the junky empties your account they empty your heart as well...taking everything good that's there till there's nothing left of yourself to love.

my friend i have been down your road and i'm here to tell you that you can't be drawing and then re-drawing lines in the sand that you swear are final! not and have anyone believe you mean what you say.

her last proposal to you is nothing short of negotiation...and she is willing to give you nothing! and guess what? at this stage i'm betting that she wont give you anything ever....even if the OM gets smart and dumps her. sorry but you have read me right. and he should get smart and dump her!

your WW is not a very nice lady at the present time. she has already broken up one marriage (his) and is not only ready to brake up yours but is willing to break YOU as well in the process!

if it were only a matter of money that yopu were gambling with than i would say what the h@ll? but this is not just about money...it's now come down to small things like common decency and it sounds like she is so sick at this point that she resents even offering you that. and you want her! you want this woman as your wife even now so? well if so then you had better be some one other then the man she's come to know and feel no respect for because a "good" man isn't what this lady seems to want right now...if you get my drift.

look i'm not advocating that you run right out to your attorney and begin the divorce...but you simply must establish some boundaries...boundaries that she knows are for real where you're concerned. the woman says that she needs time and she expects the world to stop spinning...my G-D if she were a 3 year old you'd give her a spanking for goodness sake! and now she wants a house?! PA-L-E-A-S!
coach

rookie ... right now WS is negotiating with you to finance her A ... Sell the house to protect yourself and stop enabling her A.

I would also stop using join checking account and so on ...

It is like giving money to an alcoholic beggar. It is futile.

-rh-

Rookie, the bad name calling of your wife by others, in my mind is uncalled for. I know that people automatically call the women a wh*re, sl*t, etc., plus of course our society makes the male out a stud somehow. I have ran into people in our local resturant who have brought up my situation and called my wife names like that, and I have given them a dirty look and told them I don't consider her a wh*re, sl*t, or whatever, but confused. I get the point accross. Amazing how quickly people attach those names to especially women who may be going through an affair, even if its only the first one. It would be different maybe if they really deserved the title, but the quick judgement from some people only makes things worse. My wife is a very good woman whom I believe has been led astray by satan and no matter what, I could never think of her that way.

Currently my wife is making more money than I,since I've retired and now have a set pension, shortly I will be employed again, and my financial situation will greatly improve.

The W WILL be resonsible for her contribution towards the mortgage and her rent.

Name calling of the wife, I really dont have a opinion one way or the other, cause I've sure had several names for the OP, and since my W was a willing participant in the A, the door swings both ways.

She knew she was married and that she had taken vows to honor her marriage, it was her morals and character flaws that let her seek refuge in someone else, she knew the pain it was cause, she knew it had the potential to break up 2 families.

No I do not feel very sympathetic towards her or the OP, I wouold love for them to experience the pain the OP's W, I and the children ivolved have felt.

I'm sure my W is overwhelmed with guilt, I've seen it every time I've spoke with her, but has that stopped her or the OP, NO. She is paranoid about everything now, if I say something to her she tries to read into every word and gives me her interpetation. I've given up on alot of aspects in my marriage.

There is alot of talk about the fullfillment of EN's, throughout this I have attempted to fullfill hers, only to be met with negetive responses from her, I'm very tired about this whole thing. I also have needs that have not been met in a long time, but I have to wait. I am feerful of meeting anyone now who might even show a slightest interest in me and fills even the remotest EN's I have not placed myself in a situation to meet anyone else, or have shown outward interest in anyone else, have I felt interest, ABSOLUTLEY.

Other night at a party, someone did show interest, I left, the sacrifices these WS's put us BS's through because of their selfishness, selfcentered approach to life is unbleivable.

I will do what ever it takes to save my marriage, do I still love my wife?, yes, the person I knew before the A, Do I love her currently as she is?, NO, I have a dislike for liars, cheats, and sneaks.

My wife was alsway a person who was painfully honest, if I asked her a question, no matter what, she would ALWAYS give a complete and honest answer, right now I will not believe a thing from her and that is very hurtful.

So will I keep the house for the next 6 mos., yep, but she is going to help with the payments. It to me is only one more thing that is making me bitter towards her, should she come back, I will make every effort to make the marriage work, if she does not, at that point I can leave with NO love left and no regrets.

I talked to the wife yesterday, kept it very friendly, so much for a plan b, I'm trying, but it is very emotional at times.

She stated that when she is at work, now that all know of her affair and that she has moved out of the house, people are very stand offish of her and she is feeling rejected by many, wonder why. 4 months after I had major surgery for cancer and was in recovery she supported me by starting a A, I retired in June and am under her medical plan, she wants a divorce which would effectivley leave me with no medical insurance ( at this time a must.

I used to work for the same entity as her, still have many friends employed there, the OP's wife also worked there and also has many friends still there, what did she expect people to applaud her and OP for breaking up two marriages??

Just venting, very tired of this all. Seriously thinking of pulling the plug on this myself.

When she moved there was a agreement that if she was not going to have contact with me she would not have contact with him, he is on vacation 400 miles away with his son, I asked her if she has spoken with him, she stated yes, he calls daily, honest bout something for a change.

I asked her if she explained what our agreement towards no contact with either of us was about to him, she states she does not want to do this over the phone at work, funny, she never had a problem before saying she wanted a divorce move out or anything else while at work.

I am about totally LB'ed by this woman, the more I am away from her the more I realize how cold hearted she is and selfish, to a extreme, and I am thinking, if even is she did come back would I want someone like that back in my life.

Meantime, I am going on vacation with my son in two weeks, I fully expect she will have the OP here at my house as she is staying to take care of the dogs while I am gone, this is upon agreement we made earlier, but she also told me before that she could never feel comfortable in this house again,,, FOG talk, I want to get back into life, I want someone to be with again.

rookie if you're going to violate your Plan B you might as well head straight for a lawyers office and file for divorce. I'm sorry if I sound harsh but every time you break the no contact clause of Plan B, more of your remaining love for her dies and if you keep this up, you won't have any more love left if and when she gets serious about rebuilding the marriage. Ask yourself if you are not subconciously sabotaging your Plan B on purpose in order to loose all the remaining love you have for her and thus making the decision to divorce her easier for you.

TMCM, You are right.

I did get a call from the OP's wife a couple minutes ago. He is fishing with friends, one his wife is best friends with. Supposedly the W called him and is having 2nd thoughts with th eOP and he, the OP is sulking and in a very foul mood there, so,,,he also told the friend that they have not had a PA yet, and that he is worried she is comming back to me, hope the ahole is in extreme pain. His son he has been ignoring up there due to his depression and the people there are fed up with him.

The wife and I did talk again this morning, it seems her attitude is softening a bit, but not to the point that I would say come home, again not a good plan B, but my plan A was not much better.

She has been initiating the calls, and I'm trying to put the friendly, happy game face on when she does. Sorry, I'm just really confused about now by the mixed messages she is sending and it is making me crazy.

Plan B is also about no more meeting the WS's EN's. A top EN of women is CONVERSATION and if you engage her in talk every time she calls you then you are meeting that important EN. But if you've decide to switch back to Plan A, then read the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a strategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)
--

And (more) recently:

--
Plan A is not about being a nice guy. Plan A is about ending the affair.... being a nice guy is part of that, but only part. That's why confronting and exposing are crucial elements of Plan A... and if you're not doing those things then you can't really say that you're doing Plan A.

--------------------
"Those who say they cannot follow the Policy of Joint Agreement are really saying what they want to do is more important than how you (their spouse) feels."
....Willard F. Harley Jr. PhD.

"When your spouse is trying to decide between you and the lover, it's time for Plan B."
...Willard F. Harley Jr. PhD.

Primary Rules for Infidelity
First rule of what to know when your spouse is having an affair:
Your emotions and your instincts will lead you in the wrong direction 99.9% of the time.

First rule of what to do when your spouse is having an affair:
Ignore almost all of what they say they want from you, how they feel about what you are doing to fix the marriage and any talk about the marriage, "being over, get over it."

You cannot base decisions about what to do on either of those things. Neither is objective and both are destined to fail.
....Penny R.Tupy ~ Volunteer MB Weekend Mentor Coach ~ Lifeworks Coaching/Save Your Marriage Central www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com

"No one understands the disease of infidelity until it's upon you. And then you are transfigured. Of course you have your reasons for what you do, but they are generally misleading."
....Marina in, “The Flaming Corsage” by Wm. Kennedy
"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

rookie,

TMCM hit it right on the money ... you are sabotaging your own plan B. Yes you can have absolutly NC with WW, even with kids.

Go and take your Harley's out from the garage ... take a spin for a few hours then think what you want to do.

Then come back here to post on what you want to do.

-rh-

Here is what is happening, the OP's wife has her best friend with the OP on vacation. The OP is very upset and the W and him have been arguing, he wants a commiment from her and she wont give it to him, they are major LBing if this is going on and it is a first.

Yesterday when I spoke with her she stated that she was drained as it was a very emotional day for her, since that was the first conversation I had with her yesterday, he must have been placing alot of pressure on her, my opinion, the more the better. So armed with the info I have right now, that he is under pressure and putting a emotional arm on her, I am going to be as nice as possible at this moment and give her something to think about without putting ANY pressure on her.

Sounds like a plan A switch, but I have to grab this opportunity while I can, it is one of the first times I have had the chance in this situation to look like the ggod guy and I dont want it to slip out of my hands.

She has actually held conversations with me that were on a friendly basis, something that has not happended in a long time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by rookie:
<strong>Sounds like a plan A switch, but I have to grab this opportunity while I can, it is one of the first times I have had the chance in this situation to look like the ggod guy and I dont want it to slip out of my hands. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO you never do plan B properly. Watch our for being taken ... you might grooming cake eating monster. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> -rh-

redhat, I do understand that the threat of her falling into the cake eating mode again is very real.

As I stated before though, she has softened in her conversation a bit. The OP is starting to freak, the more he pursues and places pressure on her the better, she is very emotional at this time and feeling quite guilty about the A.

If I can come across as the only person at this point who is NOT pressuring her, all the better, but I will not stay in this mode for long if her attitude does not get any better.

If I could I'd call the OP and tell him the more pressure he puts on her the better chance he has of changing her mind to commit to him, LOL, would never do that, but I definetley hope he keeps it up, and the freakier the better, might just give the fog a good kick in the pants.

Amazing how an A starts to stink once the whole world knows about it. Sure it was fun while it was a well kept secret and there was the beleif that it could develop into a committed relationship that the whole world would eventually accept and respect, but now that the bat guano has hit the fan there is not much of that happening anymore, is there?

TMCM, the fact that the A is public really has not stopped her from calling him, the friend on the trip with the OP states she has called several times, but, I am sure that it has put a damper on the fun aspect of it, both of them are miserable at this point, I know from talking to her that she is, she is very much stressed, must be the emotional strain, guilt and the embarassment, and I know he is from what I am hearing from the person with him on the trip, far as I am concerned, more the miserable the better.

She was supposed to have a baby shower for one of the girls she works with, 20 were invited, 10 have cancelled and she is of the opinion, rightfully so, that the others do not want to associate with her because of the sitch. And for some reason still, she does not think it will affect her job.

Nobody said that full disclosure of the A was going to stop it, all I said was that the A started to stink after the whole world found out about it, and you just validated this.

TMCM, I ALWAYS respect your opinion and am always glad to get a response from you,

I do agree with the you on your statement that it is harder for them right now.

Last night she did stop by on her way to the parents house, I kept it very civil and friendly even though it eats my heart out.

She did give me a hug last night, but she is still in a complete fog. I did not bring up the A at all.

Bothers me that the inlaws are supporting her in this whole thing, they are buying her furniture for her apt. like you said before TMCM, the are going to feel like total asses once they see that they helped support the A, these are people who always give the impression of the moral high road.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by rookie:
TMCM, I ALWAYS respect your opinion and am always glad to get a response from you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have never doubted your respect for my opinions and even if we disagree, I know that respect will still stand strong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do agree with the you on your statement that it is harder for them right now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And it will be harder as time goes by because the same factors that gave birth to the A will eventually consume it. Not to mention that the OM is love busting her with selfish demands. All the good feelings she has of him, will eventually be replaced with bad feelings for him (the death of her infatuation with him). If I'm not mistaken, this process has already begun.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She did give me a hug last night, but she is still in a complete fog. I did not bring up the A at all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A part of her knows that what she is doing is wrong but she is very much addicted to the OM. And that same part doesn't want to give you up and for you to give up on her.

If and when you decide to go into Plan B please keep in mind that Plan B is NOT a punishing tactic against her. It is just the opposite for the Plan B letter, aside from it's no contact request, is a letter of love and hope.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bothers me that the inlaws are supporting her in this whole thing, they are buying her furniture for her apt. like you said before TMCM, the are going to feel like total asses once they see that they helped support the A, these are people who always give the impression of the moral high road.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that's the tragedy of this because in their beleif that they are being supportive of their daughter, they are actually hurting her future happiness and wellbeing. They are not worthy of your scorn but of your pity.

<small>[ July 24, 2003, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>