Hi Susan

Just dropping in to give you some support. I am in a full blown Plan B since 13th September. Drop by on my thread in General Questions to see my story.

I know EXACTLY what you are going through, every single feeling and thought you wrote are like they came from my heart. Reading your thread made me think that the pain, the sadness, the fears, the loneliness is typical to all mankind, when put into a situation like this.

I have been so scared of doing a full blown Plan B, because I, like you, thought that if there is no contact then it is like telling myself it is over. That I will kill the last shred of hope, get used to being on my own and never let my WH back in again. I do feel like that.

But everyone here is right. It is not up to me anymore. My WH is a narcissist like yours. I can´t do anything more than wait. Maybe he will snap out of it and finally realize what he is doing. Maybe he will, being the narcissist he is, follow his own whims and desires and continue the affair until it dies out, and maybe run home again. Maybe he will work on himself and truly find the answers to why he has done what he has done, regret it and show remorse. Maybe, maybe, maybe...maybe it will NEVER work, or maybe he has truly found the love of his life, or maybe he will never come back...

But I can´t live on a maybe anymore. And some wonderfully wise people, Steve Harley & co. have found a pattern to the behaviours of WS and BS, and have figured out how to make the best out of a very tough and painful situation, giving the highest possibility of success.

Its like, if you have ten dogs that have a behaviour problem, for eg. bites their owner everytime a red car goes by, there is something in common to all those 10 dogs, and one can be succesful in solving the problem for 8 of them with the same solution, whilst on the last two of them the wide spread solution might not work.

I don´t know whether my WH is part of the 80% or the 20% of WS, but I DO KNOW that I am part of the 80% of BS, and to protect ME and to give ME the best outcome of this situation, I HAVE to do a full blown Plan B. I can just hope that my WS is part of the 80%, so it will work and there might be a miniscule little chance to recover, but if not, then in the least I did what I could to keep the last few shreds of my own integrity and self worth somewhat intact. If not for myself, but in the least for my children.

My heart cries with you.

Hugs
Queen

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: Queen of a broken heart ]</small>

Thanks guys. The support I get here is really unsurpassed.
lbc: Yes, I did a plan A. Since this was his second affair, I just couldn't be as patient as I was last time. There was ongoing contact with the OW (though he told her not to call him) for nearly a YEAR. I didn't know about MB then. It was torture.
This affair revived a lot of that hell for me. So when he WOULDN'T stop contact with her (well, he would "try" then backslide) I had to go to Plan B. It was about five weeks I think.
queen: I read your ENTIRE thread. Wow! (I too, live vicareously through you when I imagine you grabbing the OW and throwing water on her!) I can relate COMPLETELY to your story. Your husband sounds JUST LIKE mine. All that waffling, that fog-speak...it is all too familiar.
I do see the case for a FULL Plan B. I can read the peace and clarity you now have compared to your earlier posts. I can also SO RELATE to how you felt the first few days of Plan B. We actually tried it twice. It was my mixed messages, meltdowns, and phone calls that blew it. This time things are better. While we still have contact, it is completely on my terms. I do have some peace.
I don't know if anyone else has experienced this, but I am a little afraid to end all contact because I honestly don't know how I want this to go. I need to REALLY look at this and him with both eyes open. I am so hurt this time that the thought of finding a healthy relationship has an appeal. The thought of not having to recover from yet another affair is an attractive thing to consider too. Can someone knock some sense into me?

Hello Susan,
How are you doing today? I can understand your reluctance to do a full Plan B. It's like you're giving up, but if I need to protect myself emotionally, I will do it.
Oh, I have the same thoughts. Do I want a M that has the pain of an A? The thought of a new relationship is appealing to me, as well. I've actually signed up on a dating service. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> It was during one of my low moments last week.

I'm not good at knocking sense into people. I pretty much let everyone do what they want (see Plan A), but maybe you still have some hope to hold on to?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not good at knocking sense into people. I pretty much let everyone do what they want (see Plan A), but maybe you still have some hope to hold on to? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do have hope. There are a lot of good things in this man and this marriage, particularly our beautiful daughter.
But as each day goes on I get ANGRIER AND ANGRIER!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> And I'm getting pretty resentful that he is able to have someone he can love, hold, make love to, talk to without any "issues".... I want a "pure" relationship--one without the psychopathology!!!

Good morning, Susan. I really can't understand the pain we are supposed to endure as BS'. Do we get some kind of reward at the end? I don't think anything is worth what we are going through.

Now, the whole idea of Plan B is so that WS can see what it's really like to live with OW. She will have to meet all of his ENs and the theory is that she will not be able to live up to his expectations. Even though you don't see it, they could be having squabbles, they could be having doubts, they could be wondering 'what the heck are we doing?'

But then in another corner of our hearts, we may have to get to a place where we can let them go. I know that is distressing to think about, but when I thought WS was a full-blown narcissist, it gave me such peace to think he would be out of my life.

Susan, what are you doing for youself today? Have you done something you haven't been able to do for a long time? Are you taking care of yourself?

How old is your daughter? How many children are living with you? How are they doing?

I hope you can find a moment of peace today.

Thanks for the kind words, lbc.
Today stinks. I saw him tonight, even though I shouldn't. I realize how much I love him, even though I am trying to create some distance there.

I don't think he's making much progress. Last week he told me he was getting close to coming home. Today I felt none of that. He seemed miles away, even though he was clearly trying not to be. Fact is, since he's been gone (nearly a month) he hasn't gone to counseling. His first counselor was not great. But he's been "shopping" for another this entire time. In other words, he doesn't want anyone to call him on his stuff.
I've been taking care of myself. I had an appointment with a personal trainer today to get started on a new workout. I don't have much of an appetite.
Our daughter is 11. We each have kids from previous marriages. The only other living at home is my S, who is 18. They are ok. Our daughter has some VERY dark times and her attitude has been poor at times. She wants him to come back. Go figure. Neither knows what happened.
I'm really in the dumps today.
Hugs to all,

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Interesting day in counseling. I was talking to my counselor today about what I should be working on during this Plan B and what my needs are for the relationship. We ended up talking about Christopher Reeves and his marriage. To make a long story short, she asked me if I ever thought I would be able to trust WS with my life.
Wow. What a powerful question. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I honestly don't know.
Here is another: What does it say about him if he needs to "go to" the OW in order to deal with his own issues? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Susan,

I need to give you a very strong warning (cyber slap) about contact during Plan B. Each and every time you have contact with this cakeman....you set your chance of recovery back to day ONE. If he does not find out what it means to have you void from his life...and what that feels like....he will not stop contact with this OW. Please think about that. Regroup. The fear you have that he will forget about you is what your instincts say....but they are not to be trusted right now. Everything dr.H says is that for this plan to have any hope of working....ALL contact must cease. Who knows about this affair?

Susan,

Sorry to hear about the bad day. I can understand how hard it would be cut off all contact. That's kinda what we're asking of WS in regards to OW, huh? We are all human, but we can do it if we decide that's what we have to do.

Yeah, not going to IC is a bad sign, but then we can't make them go, huh?

I'm so glad you're working out. I lost a bunch of weight. Unfortunately, my H had to have an A for that to happen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Try to eat well. We need alot of energy for a good Plan B.

Ah, your daughter must be so sad. I think one of the harder parts of this whole thing is that we need to be there for our children while we are falling apart. Do you get to talk to her about what is going on?

Wow, amazing questions from your IC. Have you tried writing on those questions? Sometimes feelings come out of the pen that you didn't know you had.

Stay strong!

Hi Susan, how are you doing?

Susan,

How are you this week? I was reading part of your post from a few days ago. You said something about your counselor asking if you could trust your husband with your life. I'm not one to give too much advice, but it doesn't seem like your counselor may have your best interest in salvaging your marriage. I may not have worded that correctly. What I'm trying to say is that there are many therapists out there that don't believe that a marriage should be salvaged at all costs, unless there was some sort of abuse going on. If you read the principles of MB, that is one of them. Anyway, what a better question would have been is, would you trust your former husband, the one not in the fog, with your life? I know I'd trust my wife if we were together again... Just something to think about. Also, remember your husband for what he was, not for the one that is buried in layers of fog...

Anyway, I hadn't posted on your thread in awhile. Been posting in GQII. Seems to have more traffic over there. I hope things are going well for you. How's that workout and diet thing going? I'm doing somewhat better. I've lost a bunch of weight and I keep getting compliments so at least I feel better about myself, somewhat...

Busted my plan B the other day. It was over some financial stuff that I should have thought a little harder about before contacting her. Still haven't figured that out, but I should have maintained my no contact and solved this problem on my own. It's just kinda hard, my whole adult life has been with this woman and she somehow always figured out ways to stretch our money out, you know, creative financing... I did some LBing and feel pretty crappy about that. Anyway, it wasn't a good idea to break my no contact. Plan B is definately the way to go. So, stick with your Plan B and continue working on yourself. I hope you are doing well.. Take care.....

Hi Everyone,
It's been a while. I wish I could say "no news is good news," but sometimes I find a new "lowest low" when I can't even log on to the computer.
It has been like that.
I am really having some internal struggles. I have really been looking at whether I should keep plugging away at this. As I write this, WH is gone for the weekend with the OW.
I am getting to the end of my rope with this. I am thinking about bailing out completely.
There are things I just can't seem to understand:

1. If he really did love me, how could he do this to me? No one who REALLY loves a person could. If he can't hold me close enough in his heart not to have the A, or AT LEAST CLOSE ENOUGH TO KNOW HOW THIS IS EXCRUCIATINGLY PAINFUL, how can I have a marriage?

2. Could I ever trust this man again? I mean, what if I ever became disabled and had to depend on him? If he is not satisfied when things are at their best, what would happen in that situation?

3. Can I ever trust this man to share my most intimate feelings with? Can I ever feel close to him knowing he betrayed me so terribly?

4. What ever happened to my self-respect?

5. Aren't I better off becoming single now when I am still younger and attractive?

I just CAN'T keep this up. I just CAN'T. And I don't even know if I want to fight for my marriage any more. I thought about his little trip all weekend. (He doesn't know I know about it; I found out by accident.)

I don't know how you all do this.

Lost, I have been keeping up with my working out. It is keeping me sane. I don't have much of an appetite, so my weight is still good. I haven't really lost any either which is weird. Was there any fall out from falling off from your Plan B? How are things now? This has gotta be awful, knowing that they are living together and still trying to keep your heart open.

Starfish, I deserve that cyberslap! But I do think a part of ME is trying to DECIDE whether I can handle it if he DOES come back. I have to get through that and it is really killing me right now.

I am at wits end. How long have I been saying this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ October 05, 2003, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: SusanBT ]</small>

Susan,

Don't give up. Remember your husband before the affair. Was he a good man then? He can be that same man but better if and when he is ready to be. I keep telling myself that about my WW. I keep remembering about what I've read so often about affairs and how it is like an addiction. I know a few alcoholics and I can see how hard it can be to kick the habit. I wish it could have been a "better" habit for her to kick though!!!

When I broke contact the other day. My W started to say something but then didn't. I don't know what she was going to say. I think she was going to tell me that I needed to start figuring things out on my own and not to count on her. That thought is a little disheartening... Anyway, back to no contact and I feel much better...

You know, I try very hard not to think about her. But every day something triggers me and I cry a little. I feel ok with that though. I know either its gonna work out or I'll move on and I can do either one. Its in my hands. I didn't always feel this way. I know I can go on alone without her but I'd rather have her in my life, so that is why I wait...

My good friend from work stopped by yesterday. We are in the Air Force. He has been stationed down in Virginia and just got transferred up here to Alaska. He got married about 6 months ago. I got to meet his wife. It was really good to see him. They seemed really happy, you know that newlywed type happy. I felt really good about seeing them. They kinda tiptoed around the question about what is going on with my W. For the first time I didn't feel bad about talking about it.

So, this weekend for me was fairly good. It was a little weird yesterday though. I took a shower and for some reason thought about my W. How she did things in the bathroom and I almost felt glad she wasn't here. I almost felt like I had some freedom. It was a strange feeling. I don't know what this means. Maybe I am becoming more independant and its making me feel better. I kinda like it.

I hope you can stop thinking about your husband so much and live life the way "you" want for a change. Do some things you've never done and wanted to do, but either didn't have the time or he didn't want to do it with you. Take time out to be free for awhile. That's what your WH is doing. I'm not saying go do this with another man, but go do it by yourself or with a friend. It'll make you feel better and help you loosen up some. Think of it as therepy!

You've come a long way. A lot of us have and we have a long way to go. But we don't have to always be sad or mad or whatever. We can be happy at times and those times will become more frequent the more we let ourselves enjoy life instead of dwelling on the WS in our lives. I hope you don't give up and I hope you become stronger through this. You have a good support section through all of us here at MB. Keep your head high and enjoy your life....

Hi Susan,

I understand not wanting to get online, but I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about you and I know you will do what is right for you.

How long have you been on Plan B? I just assume Plan B takes about six months. It's a time for WS to get all their needs met by OW. Is he living with her or does he have his own place? I'd probably be in your exact place except OW doesn't have her own place and we don't have enough money for WS to move out.

As lost said, I'd look at this as a time for you to concentrate on you. That's what I'm doing. It's so emotionally draining to feel you have no control and you're waiting for someone else to decide your future. I seem to feel better now that I'm paying attention to myself and wherever the M ends up that's where it ends up.

Did you read the posts elsewhere about WS just not thinking about BS' when they start As? It tries to explain how WS' can love us and still be with someone else. Not much comfort, but I take hope wherever I can get it.

I haven't even approached the question of trust, yet. I have not come near to processing this A and if we are to work on this M, I'm going to have a tough road in front of me.

The Retrouvaille workshop is helping us with trusting the other person with our feelings. We have to do an exercise every night where we express our feelings on a certain topic and the other person just validates it. Nothing more.

Oh, don't even ask me about self-respect. I wonder about that everyday. I'm just trying to do what I feel is right at the moment. I just hope I don't hurt myself too much.

I'm so sorry you had to think about his trip all weekend -- ugh! I haven't had to suffer through an overnight excursion, yet, but it would just kill me when I knew WS was with OW. I'm sure he planned romantic dates with her and I can't even get him to take me out!

Well, try to take care of yourself. Keep in touch!

Hi again,
I probably should be posting more, but I seem to be saying the same thing over and over again.

I am in the supposed Plan B and I am supposed to be having no contact with him. There have been slippages from time to time--some mine and some his.

Regardless, I am getting increasingly INCENSED by the fact that he has left me for her. In fact, my anger increases by the day! My counselor told me that she didn't think that I could go on like this. She said she is seeing signs that I am getting so wounded she doubts I could ever rekindle anything salvageable from my marriage. I agree. Maybe I could be more patient if it was the first time, but after the last time he dragged the A on and ON.... I said the ONLY way I could do it this time was with NC with the OW. No dice, though.
One interesting thing, though. He told me that he is going "away" and will not have any contact with either of us. He wants to spend time with himself, think about the future, how he got to the place where he is, and where he needs to go. It will be interesting if he can keep to his end of that. He sure couldn't before. There was always a reason to call her, and now that he's gone, there is a reason to call me.
Yes, LBC, he has his own place now. It is just a room in a house, but it works for a temporary situation. It's been about six weeks. Six months? No freaking way. I am so depressed and so angry. And all I think about is how this person would EVER be able to love me enough not to do this again, when he KNOWS what he is doing to me and does it anyway. Where is the compassion here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Susan,

I know you say you can't go on like this and you shouldn't. If you decide to divorce your H do you think all the feelings you are going through now are going to disappear? Probably not. So, why not go into a true plan B. Don't talk to, don't think about, don't see your H and work on yourself and your family. It sounds like your H is having troubles in his A and it may not be too long before it ends. Quit thinking about him. Give it time.... NO CONTACT....
If you have no contact at all, you'll be surprised at how much better you'd feel. Also, you really need to do other things to get your mind off of him. Go out to a play, go bowling with friends, learn to scuba dive. Do something, but DON'T think of him. Act as if you are divorced and continue on with your life. You'll see it becomes easier with TIME!

As for me, well still in plan B. I see some things in my W's affair not going so well. My D had a football game yesterday and W went but not OM. I asked D why OM didn't go. W told her that OM wouldn't go to her games unless my D asked him to. Fat chance of that ever happening!!! W and D went to the movies last night. I asked if OM was going. NOPE. He is bowling with his kids. So a whole day of not being together. I know it is a small thread of hope for me, but what else is there. I decided that I will give this 18 months and if nothing has changed, I will D then. I'll have time to think things through by then and have done all I can and I'll walk away a better person for it. Don't give up Susan, just go into a true plan B and live like you would if you were already divorced. I don't mean that you should find someone else, but do all this with your family and friends... Take care and keep posting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know you say you can't go on like this and you shouldn't. If you decide to divorce your H do you think all the feelings you are going through now are going to disappear? Probably not. So, why not go into a true plan B. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lost, you are so right.
You are so right.
You are so right.
You are so right.
You are so right.
You are so right.
You are so right.
You are so right.
You are so right.
I need to figure out what it is inside of me that lacks the courage to do this. I'm dying like this.

Susan,

Just wanted to touch base and tell you a little story. I've been sort of mentoring (with cerri's help)....a friend of mine from mb (and her H). Her H left a year ago to live with the OW. She could never find the strength to do a true Plan B...and he would not honor it either. Three weeks ago....after months of trying to get her to do what is necessary....FINALLY she found the strength to resist contact. He has only been able to talk to her through me. And guess what? Looks like this week....he's finally going to write that no contact letter and begin the process of reconciliation. Until she did a true B....and he had to really live with the OW without his wife meeting any of his needs...and the fear that she COULD possibly live without him....he sat on the fence forever. Think about it chere.

Hi Susan, I can feel the pain in your words. I'm glad you're posting more. Yeah, I know we tend to say the same things over again, but maybe that is just part of the process.

I know it will be very hard for me to do a good Plan B if it comes to it. I definitely agree with the other poster in treating Plan B like a divorce.

Ugh, my WS wants time away, too. I believe he has the best intentions to not contact OW, but, hey, who's kidding whom? I know he will want to talk to her. I'm just hoping they don't meet.

I think I would be in your same shoes if this were the second time. You can only be patient for so long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Susan,

Just a little update on my situation. My D went to the movies Saturday night with my W. I asked D if OM went with them. She said no. She said they were fighting when she went over to W's house. D said W asked her if she knew anybody looking for a roomate. W told D that when she makes a mistake, its a big one and don't ever do what she did. Hmm, things don't look so great for the affair right now. All this has happened because I went into a good plan B and let W discover all the bad things about OM without having me to fall back on. I'm still maintaining my no contact but it is very hard. I know I have to though. So, Susan, if it can work for my situation it can work for yours. Go dark and let him discover life isn't so great with OW. It may take awhile, but time is all we have anyway. Sit tight and let plan B do its job... Take care and keep posting...