For some reason the site wouldn't let me reply to the other thread, something about not being logged on (as I'm looking at my logged on name).

Anyway, thank you for your replies and advice. Here are some issues with those.

- If I agreed to the position out near her, I would be stuck there for up to a year. That would put me well past when she would be done. So, if it didn't work out, I couldn't just walk away and would be stuck there with no support group at all until my orders were finished. Also, the idea of staying there all that time while she continues to see the OM is crazy to me. If she's not willing to take that first step for my protection, why would I, should I put myself in that position?
- TMCM; a thought on Plan B; if I plan B, will she not see this as an attack, maybe as proof that whenever she opens up she will get hurt by me? I'm wondering if this is good timing because of it. We have made a lot of progress, it seems. She is now willing to talk a little more, she'll discuss OM now a little, I've learned how to talk better and more respectfully towards her (I've been trying to follow the rules for Plan A), she speaks with more respect as well.
I see FEAR, as the main reason she holds back. That, accompanied by not wanting to shake up her somewhat comfortable world right now. Hmm. Maybe that's an argument for B?

Still not sure which direction might be the best. Regardless of our commo progress, she still hasn't given up very much at all. Without some sign, some show of solid effort, something that goes against her normal behavior in the fog, I don't see how I can bring myself to make big sacrifices like moving 1800 miles away from our home to the land of the enemy to expose my throat to his/her knife (so to speak) with any kind of confidence or much faith. Without faith, this will not go well at all, I'm sure.

There is another factor now. I've been looking to the church and my chaplains for answers as well. If I am listening and paying attention correctly, I feel that I may be being guided in the direction of another purpose, through my career. Of course I can't be sure of this, but it certainly makes me wonder if this marriage wasn't a distraction from my true purpose.
Who knows though, right?

Maybe I'm just tired. After all of this, I wouldn't be surprised if I had a little battle fatigue (with the marriage efforts, not the war <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). The war was cake, its the affair that's the real hell. I'd go through this deployment a dozen more times, rather than lose the love of my wife.

So, here I remain, just as confused and unsure of what to do as she is.
I did send her the contacts of a few WS here that said they would be willing to lend her an ear as someone who can relate, as well as a letter by Sincere1 to all other WS.

Well, I have to run. We Green Ramp tomorrow and fly on Wed. back over the Big Puddle. When I get to Bragg, I'll check on this. Wish me a safe flight. Take care. Oh, if anything should happen; you've been a great bunch of people, it makes me feel better when meeting people like you, that my friends aren't dying for just anybody.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For some reason the site wouldn't let me reply to the other thread, something about not being logged on (as I'm looking at my logged on name).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a very common occurrence and the only way is to log back in by clicking on the refresh or reload icon of your browser and then type your username and password.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I agreed to the position out near her, I would be stuck there for up to a year. That would put me well past when she would be done. So, if it didn't work out, I couldn't just walk away and would be stuck there with no support group at all until my orders were finished. Also, the idea of staying there all that time while she continues to see the OM is crazy to me. If she's not willing to take that first step for my protection, why would I, should I put myself in that position?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then don't do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM; a thought on Plan B; if I plan B, will she not see this as an attack, maybe as proof that whenever she opens up she will get hurt by me? I'm wondering if this is good timing because of it. We have made a lot of progress, it seems. She is now willing to talk a little more, she'll discuss OM now a little, I've learned how to talk better and more respectfully towards her (I've been trying to follow the rules for Plan A), she speaks with more respect as well. I see FEAR, as the main reason she holds back. That, accompanied by not wanting to shake up her somewhat comfortable world right now. Hmm. Maybe that's an argument for B?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DW Plan B is universally despised WS because it takes away their cake.

Plan B is not an ultimatum but a strategy to protect the remaining love the BS has for the WS. The more love a BS has during the start of marital recovery, the more the odds s/he will have the strength to endure that difficult period. As I said before, marital recovery is tough and it often is tougher than an ongoing affair. If you wait until you have very little love left in you love bank, you may not have any desire left to want the marriage anymore and just opt to go straight for divorce. So while you are doing a good job in leaving her with good memories of you, you need to remember that until she ends all contact with the om forever your marriage is still sitting on death row.

<small>[ August 18, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Dear Desert Wolf,

To Recap, you have the option to take an assignment near your home, or 1800 miles away, near your WW. You have 6 years till 20 year Army retirement.

If you select the base near your home, you mentioned something about getting set up better. Could you purchase a house suitable for a family? Could you rent out the house, if you get transferred, until you are able to return? Did you plan to rent a house, if you return to your base near your home? What are the options for your WW for locations for her next base?

What is your ideal situation with a wife, as a career Army man, with some periods of being absent from the home? How does WW fit into your ideals of arrangement for times when you are absent? Are there any compromises that WW is willing to make to get closer to your ideals? What are WW plans for children? When can WW leave the Army? Does she plan to re-up?

Other questions may come up for you. These questions are not intended to suggest what should be posted, or left private.

Examples of neutral conversation starter questions I was recommending for you to use with Plan A, would be: What would you like to do? What would make you happy? What would you like to have? What would you like to become? What would you like to change? What would you like to have disappear? What would you hope will remain unchanged? In terms of the E-mail that your WW found objectionable, could you have brought up subjects in a more neutral format, so your wife could giver you her ideas, rather than you letting her know your ideas? I took the name quipper, becaue my wife has short attention span, and a ready temper to reject any Idea I may come up with. So I try to work my suggestions very carefully, and briefly, and with words as neutral as possible, before I ever think of mentioning an idea to my wife. My brother says that he makes it a rule to never make any suggestions to his wife. If you want to go through an example or two, I can show you my precessing. Right now I am asking my wife to read a parenting book to me about teenagers. My wife is a driving force towoard my 26 year old son living at home, and half-heartedly going to college, and half-heartedly working just enought to have spending money, but nothing for car repairs or insurance.

At some time, you will reach a point where things have gone too far for too long.

I will relate a story that comes to mind, but may have no relevance. I saw on TV two families of Eskimos get together for a celebration. The celbration was that one husband was going on a long fishing trip, for several months, and he was leaving his wife in the care of the other family. The TV special showed that when the hunter husband returned, he gave some of the catch to the family that had cared for his wife in his absence, and went to a separate residence with his wife. This was all done with goodwill.

I am not personally able to say that my feelings of jealousy would not be difficult to control under your circumstances. I have been in circumstances in which my feelings of jealousy rose quicky, and were surprising to me, and I acted out in ways that I regret.

One thing I remember you saying that your WW had said that she wanted to wait to talk to you until you completed your Ranger training. Is that arrangement anything that makes any sense to you now?

Those are a few thoughts for now,

Best Wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ August 18, 2003, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Desert Wolf,

Sorry you feel so confused and sorry that you must be in this situation in the first place. It really hurts. I'm still there too with no sign of WH leaving OW.

I yield to the more experienced advise of others here, but being a woman, I know we sometimes see things a little differently....

I think it was good advice to let her Mother know that you are willing to do whatever it takes to save your M and that you understand that will involve you making some changes in yourself, as well as your WW.

I think your WW is still in the fog, and there is no logic reaching them when they are there, but please be really careful in going to Plan B so quickly. I know it works for everyone, but it is not intended to get your WW back. You may not see any signs that she is willing to give anything at first.

I still stand by my own personal experience and wish that I had put my WH first (after God), including going anywhere he was to have a chance to Plan A him, and if he ever gives me that chance, I will have my bags packed so quick and be there, wherever that is. I want to do God's will, not my will.

I wish you the best and stay safe.

cajeanie

DW,

I don't know if you remember me, but I posted to you when you first found out and were dealing with all of the issues of your W's A. It sounds like you have made alot of progress with her, and with yourself... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I know that you are so glad to be coming home!! When you get home to Bragg I hope things go better than you had hoped. As for giving up your dreams of your career, etc...I would really think long and hard about it. I made the decision to leave my H after he told me about his affair from the other side of the world. After a ton of emotional abuse from him by phone and email, I just couldn't take it anymore! He couldn't promise me anything...that he wouldn't cheat again or that he would give up the married OW. It was hell and still is. I could have gone with him to his next duty station, but she was going there too...w/o her H...so my chances were slim to none. I am not telling you to do what I did...I am just giving you my story. By the way, I am 30 minutes from Bragg on the 30th of August...home to see my family...if you need to talk to someone who has been there and is making it...slowly...then I would be glad to share more with you and try to give you all the help I can. I know how damn HARD military life is, especially as a BW. Take care and welcome home!!!

Thanks again for all of your feedback. It certainly gives me food for thought and different perspectives which I badly need.

Here is the current situation:

My last posting was from Kuwait. On the 20th I flew back to the states. We had to outprocess at Ft. Bragg for about a week. When I got there I called my W to see if she wanted to talk. I had told her earlier that when I got stateside there wouldn't be much time left before I had to start making hard decisions before I got home. I had to make a plan, and although I hoped that she would want to be a part of that planning process, I would do what I had to if she didn't take an active part in discussing our future. Well, she didn't have much to say when I called her. It turns out that rather than taking any steps to reserve any time for these important talks, she had a friend fly in AND she was with the OM so no time for us. I said I hoped she would make time that week, but if not I hope she finds happiness and to have a nice life and hung up. I was fuming, but I said it as nice as I possibly could.

Something that may be of note during this week, was that there was a waitress that my group saw almost every night. She liked to flirt with me, and I found myself enjoying it. In the past I would have backed away but now I wasn't.

That whole week W didn't call. I took that as a message. It was over. The next time I heard from her I expected it to be about tying up loose ends.

Well, I got back home last THUR. She called on FRI and acted like all was completely normal. I didn't feel like talking nor did I feel I had much to say at this point so I kept everything short. Then she said we should talk soon. I decided that any efforts would have to be hers now, so I told her to decide when that would be. She proposed the next day. I said it was no good and pushed it back a day since I had made plans.
We settled on talking Sun morning and hung up.

At this point I was trying adjust my frame of mind for moving on alone. It wasn't easy to let go. I'd been fighting forever it seemed so now I had to convince myself that it was simply time to quit and that it was ok.
Well, I went out with a relative to a bar to shoot pool. I met someone nice there. I wasn't seeking anyone, but after chatting and shooting pool all night (I didn't drink though, just for clarity's sake) she asked if I would like to go out with her sometime, much to my surprise. I hesitated and then I thought sure, why not. She was very nice, she treated me nice, and she seemed very grounded. I said I'd like that. Numbers exchanged, end of night, I went to my relatives to crash.
Next night, visiting with same relative, went to a street dance. Saw some really old friends. We went to borrow a pen from someone to exchange numbers. The pen-lender stuck around and started chatting. The three of us had a lot in common and chatted a long time. Well, after my old friend took off, this new person asked if I would be interested in having coffee with her sometime. I said I'd like that, number, goodbye.

The next day, I was at home as planned, waiting for W to call. MIL called first to welcome me back from war, hope things go well with conversation, call her later. W calls a little after planned. Says she could have called me much much earlier since she was up really late, til 0500. I said I'll bite, why? She was up all night talking with OM and they decided to break it off. Very long pause. Didn't know what to say. Aparently she was expecting a different reaction and sounded dissapointed. I explained my skepticism with all due respect. In fact OM was "out" at the moment so she could talk to me. She then said that she would be requesting tranfer to separate herself from OM and that whole area/situation. This made me feel a little better. More encouraged. We chatted a bit, and after laughing about some stuff, she popped out with "I love you". I was shocked by this, hadn't heard it in a long time and said as much. A long, tearful, heartfelt apology ensued. Sorry she hurt me, she couldn't say ILU while being so wrong, etc. I apologized for my part.
Then we started to discuss "now what" and ran out of time, she had to check out of hotel and go back to base, riding with OM. Said I'd call her today, so we'll see.

NOW.......While talking to her I felt good about it, albeit skeptical. However, with the shock fading and more time to think, many doubts, a reluctance to let her back, thinking about many things she said about our marriage being an honest mistake, thinking about my hopes for the future of my career. While in Bragg, I talked to more SF guys and was very encouraged to continue in that direction. Also, another active duty option came up that I might be able to be a pilot, my childhood dream. My third choice is the active guard/reserve position I already mentioned.
I know W would be against any AD choice, besides the AGR. Deploying not optional. Even if she had a change of heart to let me serve as I would, can I trust her when I deploy again eventually?

Many, many questions. However, I don't want to dash her hopes if she is serious. I don't want to do anything to scare her in her making herself vulnerable again.

Today I'll ask her how far she is willing to go to end with OM. I'm guessing she still plans on doing the many activities (bowling league, softball, etc) that they are both on, which I would find unacceptable.

Well, I'm out of time and very confused. I think I got the ball rolling on my independance and it's further along than I thought. Part of me feels her efforts now are too little too late. But, part of me feels that I owe her a new chance every time she yo-yos back again. Maybe I should have plan B'd a long time ago because I don't know how much I have left and if this is going to be as hard as you say, I'm not sure there's enough. I'm half considering giving up completely. It may have begun already. In fact I'm still deciding what to do if either of those women I met call. Fortunately neither lives in my area so I don't have to deal with that immediately.

Thoughts PLEASE

DW I'm glad that you are still with us and that you are in good health.

What you are experiencing is known as emotional detachment in which you no longer fear losing your marriage and that your life will be fine in case you become a single man once again. It is actually the best place for a BS to be in because you are no longer riding the emotional rollercoaster and your well though out plans cannot be sabotaged by your negative emotions (anger, hatred, bitterness, etc.) You have regained power over your life and can actually look forward towards the future no matter what happens to your marriage.

But by the same token, I highly suggest that you avoid becoming too involved with either of these two women that you met, for any one of them can become the OW and you the WH. Then your marriage will receive another terrible blow from which it may not recover. So please, for your sake and that of your marriage, don't cross boundaries that will put you on the slippery slope of an affair.

TMCM- ya, I'm aware that we don't need any more complications. In the spirit of Openness and Honesty, I told W all about meeting these women and the exchange of numbers and also that if they called I would explain that I had a wife, its complicated, sorry for any inconvenience. She agreed to this and even suggested I meet with the one who seemed more hopeful to explain but I said that may be a bad idea given my vulnerable state.
I mentioned the women here to illustrate how I was starting to move on already, the place I was in before W called and wanted to reconcile.

So...we talked last night for over two hours. It was almost like old times, at least some of it seemed that way.
However, I asked how far she was willing to go to protect me and to separate from OM. It turns out as far as she'll go is to "not be with him alone". She's going to continue going to bowling night with him and others, softball, etc, etc, just like before, and as far as I see it, just like it was when this whole thing started. I understand that she is in a remote location, there are only 12 people to hang with and they are almost always together, but I feel that's TOO BAD. Am I wrong to feel that she should break all contact, even if she'll be reduced to curling up with a book for the next couple months? Shouldn't she be taking extreme measures to stay away? I see it as the whole addiction problem, like in the SAA book. If the addiction is still there in front of her....isn't that the wrong answer??

Here's another thing. I told her how close to the edge I feel and that I am giving her the warning she didn't give me, that I was and to a degree am tempted to move on and see other people. Her response was to invite me out to her state for a week. Now, something held me back from agreeing to that right away, not sure what. Later, a friend pointed out that she should be making the efforts here and that she should come here and take vacation. Furthermore, that if I give in and hand her that, and I'm the one "giving" again (he pointed out that I was the only one giving the last six months) and she doesn't ever have to sacrifice or compromise anything, that that may set the standard for our marriage even if we do get back together.
He's right. She hasn't had to really go out of her way at all. She's not really giving up OM, she's still going to see him at daily recreational activities. She's trying to transfer to another state, but that's not approved.

Here's one more thing that left me in a lot of doubt:
When it was discussed about preventing this from happening again, she more or less said if she felt like she did before, depressed, unhappy with the marriage, that she couldn't make any promises.

Another: I talked to the recruiter to see about my next step in my military career. I found that it would take some doing, but that being a pilot (my childhood dream) IS now possible! However, W stated in no uncertain terms that if I went Special Forces that she WOULD NOT be there for me, and it was pretty much the same for any path that led me on a deployment in the future.
I want to protect her happiness, and I'm willing to compromise, but she won't bend AT ALL on this. It's not up for discussion with her. I want to keep her happy, but I want to answer my calling as well. I'm a soldier, if I don't follow my dreams in the one thing that's been a huge part of me since boyhood, how am I going to feel later. Part of me may resent her and myself as well if I don't go. Even if I didn't she may feel guilt for it, knowing that I gave it all up for her.

I'm completely split here guys. Part of me wants to give her every chance and part of me is raising huge warning flags and wants to cut and run. Part of me is touched by her efforts and part of me says she isn't giving enough to show me she really means it.

I told her how fragile this is and how I REALLY need her encouragement to stay in this. She returned with the same.

Confused here, very, very confused.

all for now

out

DW,
i'm about to advocate something here for which i'm sure that i'll be flamed but here goes...

i've followed your story and must say that given the circumstances governing your marriage, (you two being split up for so long so often) you are really in an untenable position. that is, if you two could be together on an on going basis and grow together then maybe things would work out in the end but i don't see that happening anytime soon.

further, she doesn't sound like she's very supportive of your goals and dreams. in fact i would venture to say that she sees those dreams as an impediment to her having a happy marriage. so what are your choices?

you have a path you long to follow and although it's sad, sometimes the person you most love doesn't share those dreams and doesn't want to chose them...and although it's very sad, in the long run i believe that a person must learn to be true to themselves. sooooo, given her marrital track record and the fact that you two have no children (is this a correct assumption?) i would simply move on with my life with out planning on her being part of it.

sorry, but that's my take on it.

coach

DW,

What about her hopes and dreams? Isn't it selfish to pursue only what we want, and not compromise for the other? Maybe she sees your career pursuit as not being really serious about your M.

Perhaps, you aren't really serious anymore and have already moved on?

I want someone who is there for me all the time, not just when it's convenient, isn't that what we all want? I want to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that our M is the most important thing, right after God.

I believe the Harleys tell you that if you want your M, post A, that you may have to be willing to be the giver for some time. It's not fair, but life isn't fair.

What is it you want more than anything else in this world? Ask yourself the tough questions, and then you'll know what is right for your.

Whatever you do, do it with honor and respect for your W, and you won't regret it.

cajeanie

DW I recommend that you read Dr Harley's book 'Love Busters' for there is a chapter there titled 'Resolving conflicts over career choices' that you would do well in reading.

You have to make some hard choices as to what is more important to you, saving your marriage or advancing your career, for in the end it may come to chosing one or the other.