I've learned alot from being here but I gotta tell you sometimes find myself totally confused lol. I don't even know what I should or shouldn't be doing. I feel I'm in plan A WH still at home wants to stay here and work on everything both of us going to counseling seperately as WS feels he has many childhood issues to deal with. He just recently told me that he feels he has never in 17 years been committed to this marriage because he didn't know what committment was from his parents and that he didn't learn from them what it was like to be a good father and a good husband he wants to learn that and do it with me but he also doesn't know what he really wants. He's still working with OW and still in love with her although he is reading SAA right now and has read HNHN and says he doesn't interact with her. My problem is that he is gone alot, pilot, and even though he's trying in some areas, calls me several times a day, leaves me his itinerary etc etc. Its only things he's comfortable with. I'm trying to do plan A and have no trouble with not LBing as I've never been one and understand its two that made this mess. All of a sudden he points out all my faults and makes me feel its all my fault. So I get you've been lying to me for years(wait a minute I think he's the one thats been lying)then the next thing is, I know we can make this work it just takes time, I know I will fall back in love with you, then another mean thing. I know he's confused but is this another sign of something and if I'm doing Plan A should I just let him do what he wants. Like this morning he called he wants to take OS 11 to a RC hobby show wants me to watch YS 4 for the weekend. I said I understand how important it is for you to have time with son but you have so little free time that when you give it to one the others feel left out. I said I know I feel totally jealous of my own child that you can take him away for a whole weekend but can't find the time to take me out to dinner alone. He replies I don't want to debate this right now. Last night I wanted to know how he was feeling and he's like I'm in the ariplane, later he called and I brought it up and he said I'm really tired I don't want to get into it. So is this LBing and I'm kidding myself or do I deserve an answer?? pleassssssssse help!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong>He replies I don't want to debate this right now. Last night I wanted to know how he was feeling and he's like I'm in the ariplane, later he called and I brought it up and he said I'm really tired I don't want to get into it. So is this LBing and I'm kidding myself or do I deserve an answer?? pleassssssssse help!!!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most likely EA/PA is flaring again, sorry. You can't force him to do anything that he doesn't want to ... nagging is annoying behavior (LB). Now Plan A is not let H do whatever H wants ..... What his complaint about you ... those are your plan A actions list, how are you doing in that list ?. How is he doing on his plate ?

-rh-

Ahhh!!!! Thankyou Red Hat Now that you say it it makes sense. I think I'm doing well on his EN, Attractive spouse- when this started 1 1/2 yrs ago I lost 40 lbs from stress I've gained 20 back and lost most of it now working on 20 more.
Admiration- I really try to be sincere on my admiration but of course he thinks I'm faking it but I keep it up.
Domestic duties - house is spotless and with two little ones and going to school full time thats probably the hardest one. lol
He hasn't done the questioniers yet and can't tell me what other EN he has these are just those he is most vocal about.
But what do you mean by his plate??????? again pleassseeeee, its hard to post and not get answers so I appreciate you taking the time.

Me 39
WS 44
Married 17 yrs
2 boys 4 and 11
OW was my best friend.

km4,

However those are not exactly plan A ... confused ?, most of complaint that H has about you directly related to his ENs ... yes, you have to fillin his ENs as much as you can but you have to address those complaint specificly and show that you could change. For instance, attractive spouse is his EN but he might complaint about not putting "nicer" dress or make up or weight. If he complaint specificly about your weight then you better get those 20 lbs away.

Unless he is filling ENq & LBq for you, you have to guess top 5 of his ENs. But Plan A action is a dead give away if you listen carefully <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . It is a requirement to fillin ENs and avoid LBs during plan A don't get me wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But what do you mean by his plate??????? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying to see what he has done after A ended, you post that he is changed to be a good father ... what else ? How is he progressing ? is there any slack ?. Any abrupt changes in his behavior is a red flag !!!.

-rh-

Again rh thankyou for taking the time to respond, I def want to learn and make sure what I am doing is right! I guess you have to talk black and white with me for a minute. I understand what you mean about specifics and ie my weight I am losing but I can't lose any faster but have taken more care with the me I am right now, and see what you mean about pinpointing the exact thing and working on that.
What do you mean about Plan A action being a dead giveaway??
He is trying to change to be a better father and a better husband, both things OW who knew us well pointed out to him during A, lol. I don't know if I'd call slack occurs although I feel like we have setbacks i.e. for awhile we were communicating so honestly and openly and now I feel like I get surface, he is going through alot emotionally not just with this, but loss of a business, finally coming to grips with the death of both parents both alchoholics etc etc. when I point it out that I liked the openness and honesty thing and I want to be his sounding block he says "SAA even says there will be set backs." I think too, right now he is on a 4 day trip and took the SAA book with him, he is amazed at how much it sounds like him. I think he may be realizing that the fantasy really was fantasy, I'm not sure though but that may be why he doesn't want to talk to me about it or maybe he's fighting it and not wanting to believe what it says. I'm never sure were I stand. A couple of months ago I went to my MC and said give me the bottom line he said "from what you have told me and you both together(of course he can't say what WS says alone) I think WS is not going to want to be married to you" I went home and said its time to end this and he FREAKED. He did not want to end it, he's deathly afraid that I'll "leave him before he gets himself figured out." But it seems like we just go stagnant and fall back into old patterns I want to work on it darn it.
From a "red Flag" do you mean back with OW. I'll ask him tonight. I also really want to know if it was just an EA or also a PA. He admitted a few months ago that he had an PA with another women he worked with 10 years ago but it was def not EA and this one was EA not PA but I wonder if he just says that because it was my best friend or because she is SO Christian and he doesn't want it to get out or because its true. Is that LBing if I ask??

Thanks again for your help.

km4,

When WS rant about BS in M, BS has to listen up. WS actually telling BS how to plan A them ... a dead giveaway w/o any guessing. Now those complaints most likely tie to WS' unfullfill ENs but not all the time. Also it doesn't mean that you have to complete the action ... you just need to convince BS that you could change. So if even you have net total of 10 lbs weight loss but your H saw that you are making the effort and acknowledge your changes you are fine, keep it up ... hmm down ? LOL !.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A couple of months ago I went to my MC and said give me the bottom line he said "from what you have told me and you both together(of course he can't say what WS says alone) I think WS is not going to want to be married to you" I went home and said its time to end this and he FREAKED. He did not want to end it, he's deathly afraid that I'll "leave him before he gets himself figured out." But it seems like we just go stagnant and fall back into old patterns I want to work on it darn it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First even when I start to make sense to you ... get a second oppinion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . That hopeless conclusion was a few months ago. If you go back to that MC, he would have different oppinion. IMHO, leave your H alone for now & avoid talking R ... keep plan A'ng. Keep LB away and keep fillin his ENs ... the only one left is time !.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that LBing if I ask?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LB is a reaction to your question ... put yourself to his shoes, how would he react ?. You have to put it w/o judgement and make sure that he understood that this questioning is for your recovery. IMO you have to stay away from talking R at least for now.

Does H open to MC ?, get MB coaching. Some people could DoItYourSelfMBer some aren't handy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I had SH coaching. Yes, there are setbacks but if it is prolong you have to watch out. Go with your instinct about renew contact but don't LB.

-rh-

rh, first I gotta tell you coming in here as a newbie is sometimes like having to read a foreign language lol. But I think I have translated correctly. I get your idea that I have to show him that I'm working on those issues and that puts alot of pressure off me because I was feeling like I have to be all knowing and fix everything now. Last night he came home and first thing out of mouth was "after reading SAA I realize how many mistakes I(WH) made in our marriage." Basically not meeting any of my EN while I was meeting his(I realize of course that when I stopped meeting his is when the A started, when he wasn't meeting mine I just gained weight lol) and then that he needed to give me a list of his EN and what they are. Of course I said I agree about the list and I'd like to share mine with you too. Silence greeted that request and when this morning I looked through the SAA book and his writing's in the margins, this is the way we communicate what in the book is important to us, he has written he is not sure he has any desire to work on my EN. I was really bummed about that but then I read your post and it allowed me to let go a little in what you said about just working on his EN and not on the relationship Thats what I've been concentrating on, lets make this R better lets fix it. But until I get him to want to work on it there is no point correct? Have I got it?
And yes he does open up totally to the IC so its sometimes nice cuz I go and share my concerns and then WS goes and I think IC slips things in without WS even knowing it. WS is not ready for MC yet we tried it about 6 months ago and WS could not open up with me there. Although whenever one of us comes home from a session we talk through the whole thing and its nice, unfortunetly due to WS job he only make once every three weeks.
And I think he answered my question about PA vs EA without even realizing it because in the SAA WS had highlighted and ** that an EA can be just as dangerous as an PA.
Although what is SH help? And I would love to get MB help and even our counselor is open to it alot of what he says and does usually matches with MB. The difference we have both noticed is MC wants you to find it out yourself while we both feel its so nice to have someone or something say do A then B then C, we obviously never had these skills to begin with so they won't just jump out of thin air.
Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou,
I do not feel as confused and don't feel I have to get everything in the open and fix R NOW!

km4,

The whole promise of MB is if one willing to do 4 gifts of love; care (fillin EN), protect (avoid LB), quality time and radical honesty to SO ... SO will be gurantee to fall in love (romantic love). The SO only requires to let you do it and be honest about ENs & LB lists. Basically one could create romantic love ! and hope the SO would then do the same. So let the focus away on H ... he will come around.

SH is Steve Harley, one of MB conselor. He had help me to walk through plan A/B. I owe my sanity to him.

Actually you could buy the 5 steps to romantic love work book by Harley's ... it is pretty much step by step work book. Even with Harley, they will just coach you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . There is no love pill <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

A didn't happen in one day ... it would take time to remove the condition that make A possible. Be patience but be alert.

-rh-

Thankyou rh I appreciate your honesty and advice, I'm off on a mission..... to have WS fall madly in love with me....again. lol
km4

I can't believe my last post on this was only 5 days ago why is this roller coaster continueing, o.k. I know because I let it. I need to vent, sorry.
Is this another stage or really over. I'm so tired of fighting this fight and I thought I was doing well. Last night had a conversation with WS were I needed to know stuff. Usually when I bring something up he's too tired or too busy. I guess I just haven't been getting it. I thought from what he had been telling me that he didn't have feelings for OW anylonger but now I realize he's says he keeps them in check "they" realize how many problems would occur if they were to be together. That he's not like the SAA book in which he needs to have no contact with her that by keeping his feelings in check he limits those feelings and feel they are lessening. But when I ask if he see's my good qualities he says like what. I said "I'm a kind, good and loving person" He said "I wish I could see that" and kinda gave me that "o right look" I told him if you ask any one of my friends or family they would without question list those qualities, and then pushed it more unfortunetly by saying if you asked OW friends or family that they def could not say the same. She is a very me me me oriented person and I speak from someone who knew her well. When people would ask why I was friends with her cuz she can take advantage of a person, I knew she is a selfish person she does everything with her in mind and it reminds me I need to do the same, plus I thought I was the friend that kept her real and that she really cared about me. He keeps insisting it's been bad from day one, it hasn't. He says he needs to find himself first that he's not sure he has it in him to be a good father or husband. That he feels totally disconnected from life. And that when he's found himself then we can work on the marriage.
I tell him maybe he needs to leave to work on him first if he's not willing to work on the marriage, he asks why? what would leaving serve. It would help stop this daily pain. Of course he doesn't have any pain because he doesn't have any feelings. I believe even though he stated def not, that the other side of the fence does look greener and that he sees a reality life with Annette to be blissful. I asked him if he was willing to jump in full force and commit to making this marriage work and he said not yet. Basically he wants his cake and eat it too. I provide all the home life for him etc etc but he doesn't have to do anything for me. He says I expect too much of him.
Usually I get upset at night but by morning I've calmed down. But this morning I still feel hopeless. When he left this morning he said "don't worry it will work out" and
I said "I'm not sure anylonger it will"
He said "thanks for throwing away hope".
I said I've had hope for a long time but I find my hope dying.
He just called from his cell phone and said write down one emotional need I could realistically fill for you this week. I said I no longer know if I want you to fill it if you don't feel it. He says I got it wrong that he is committed to this relationship just not in the same way I am. He said "I need help, I can't do it alone, I don't know what to do"
I said "I'm willing to help, but you got to be willing to do the work, not just when its convenient but all the time. and going to IC is good but again its got to be consistent and SAA states it in black and white the steps you need to take, If what your doing now isn't working and SAA has the proven steps then why not do it."
Its just I feel things are getting better, maybe its just my wishful thinking, and then to hear after 16 months he still has no feelings, and that he needs to do things on his time schedule and not suffer the concequences of me not being there. What does he want from me.
thanks for listening.

km4
me 39
ws 44
2 boys 4 and 11
married 17 years
ow was my best friend

km4,

It is healthy to vent here ... You are doing good ... you are radically honest about your feeling. Remember One spouse could save the other one !.

How is your MC working for both of you ?.

Any plan of short getaway ?

-rh-

rh I thought that by being radically honest I'm lbing.
We are doing IC with the same counselor. We tried together but WS feels too many issues are due to him and not the marriage that once again he needs to find him first. Plus the fact that at the beginning he was not honest with me but can be with IC.

No plans for a getaway, Everything is more important then time with me, work, now finally his boys, same 17 year old story, he did promise dinner thursday night after his IC appt. but I feel I guilted him into it and as our MC says its not the words but the actions that speak the loudest.

km4
me 39
ww 44
2 boys 4 and 11
married 17 years
ow was my best friend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong>rh I thought that by being radically honest I'm lbing.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope ... as long as you talk about your feeling and not judging him or demanding him. Let him see the fruit of his actions.

Why he is honest with IC but not you ? ... find out why. Could it be that the reaction from you that make him afraid ?.

-rh-

rh see thought I understood lbing, but everytime you clarify the picture does get better and better.

I believe WS is more honest with IC then with me not because of my reaction even our IC says I'm way to easy on WS and I need to make him more accountable for his actions but because when we started together he was denying a relationship with my best friend and I believed she was just helping him out that he was unhappy all because of me and my faults. He could tell the IC the truth but not me. Then later found out about another A physical not EA like this one ten years ago from ex H of OW. Before he could admit it he spent time discussing with IC. Now I believe he is honest about everything when he goes to IC he comes home and we talk openly, he was so glad to finally be honest with me about the old A and my reaction was supportive so he feels o.k. with honesty, in fact now he spouts it left and right. Now he believes he needs to fix him first then work on the marriage. After last night I am no longer willing to do that and to tell the truth he's scared, called me three times to make sure I'm all right and still here. But a little part of me dies daily.

km4
me 39
ws 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong>But a little part of me dies daily. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What do you want from him ?

What do you expect from your self ?

-rh-

rh, thats actually harder then I would have thought to answer.

Of course if I was asking for the stars I'd say, total commitment that we would both follow this through until its the best marriage we both could imagine. But there are no guarantee's.

From him I expect to try. Not say he will and then not do it. That he would make me a priority. That he would take my feelings into consideration. When I ask him to tell me everytime he see's OW he would tell me even if it is "just passing in the hall", if going out to lunch with a single female friend of his makes me uncomfortable he wouldn't do it. That he would follow the steps outlined in the SAA. And that he would allow himself to feel something for me, even just a twinge.

What do I expect from me. Much harder. I expect to continue to progress and become the best me possible. That I will continue to work at this marriage, including the SAA steps, until I have lost hope. And by doing all the things he would hopefully ask of me.

For even now I feel like I hit the jackpot when I married him, a jackpot made even better by the flaws it has and not the perfection I use to perceive it to be. The pain lies in his indifference towards me and his betrayal that continues in his feelings for another.

KM4
me 39
WS 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
OW was my best friend.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Give those two answer to your H and discuss it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-rh-

Thanks rh, I tried last night on our after the IC dinner to discuss this but WS says he can't commit to anything yet. He's doing what he feels he can which means what and when he wants, not what I want. IC says he has to take it very very slow that WS is still in the fog but is starting to come out of it.(AHHHHHHH) WS was so excited that IC told him what a change he saw in him in since three weeks ago. That WS is finally starting to feel regret about what he's done to me and OW H. WS still has minimal feelings for me and IC told him have you looked closely at your wife lately, she's not the old one you remember she's a brand new improved model, get to know her. But again its on his terms. If feeling regret and his new found revalations are good why do I feel like I want to bop him. Today I want to take a day of from his EN, just like he takes every day off from mine.
So it realizing the pain you have caused a good thing?
km4- yes witchy and I know it.
me 39
ws 44
married 17 years
two boys 4 and 11
ow was my best friend

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by km4:
<strong>So it realizing the pain you have caused a good thing?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeap, it meant that H had admitted the treason he did in M. The next step it would be turning the the table on him ... "if you are the BS, what would you like to happen ?".

Again A didn't just happen in a day, it would take a while to come out of it.

-rh-

Gosh need to vent again, why does this consume so much of me. Its been a rough day although not one out of the ordinary, kids to school, me to school, homework, housework, soccer, boy scouts, test tomorrow, screaming kids, dinner etc etc. WS calls has basically been gone for a week and even when he's in town he's not home and tells me all about his bad day and the stresses he's under. Wouldn't it be nice if he would just ask "how was your day" and clincher that he would care how my day was. I ask him about this and he agrees the same thing over and over. I just don't have feelings for you, I'm being brutally honest something I've never been. I understand and I want brutally honest but I also can't wait forever to hear that I am specially and that I have someone to lean on when times are tough. I feel he expects me to wait around until he decides wether he can make time for or even ever has feeling for me again. He obviously can't commit to things I feel are important and is happy to tell me what he needs. For 15 years he has let me fill those needs even though I haven't felt he fulfilled some of my most important ones and when I got fed up and said no more he found someone else who would. Now I'm back to filling the ones he'll let me with Plan A but he once again does not have time to fulfill mine. He agrees that he doesn't make me a priority and that his IC and others have told him he needs to "act them out" and that in time feelings will come even if he doesn't have them now. He feels putting out children first is a good step. I disagree, I find myself in the same old trap that I ask he doesn't listen and then I stop asking and swallow my emotions cuz I'm tired of getting hurt. I def feel like the boobyprize. The joy that I felt when he felt the fog being lifted last week is gone. I guess I had hoped that he would be like so many here that still love their spouse even though they had an A with another. That hope is gone.
And rh I don't know what you mean about turning the tables. WS feels more hurt towards what he did to OW h who was his best friend and to his children then what he did to me. I believe he still feels it just happened and was neither of their faults. He still has such feelings for her although he says he realizes its fantasy and that he only see's her in the halls.
km4
me 39
WS 44
married 17 years
2 boys 11 and 4
ow was my best friend