I posted this same basic question under 'divorcing/divorced' (because my husband says he 'knows' he will want to go through with divorce when our legal separation ends) but I thought it might fit here too.

My husband says his affair has ended for good. We have reason to believe it's true but that the break-up was not really mutual. As far as I can tell he still wants her back but this was the final break-up for her (after several months of feuding and breaking up weekly). This last break-up was almost a month ago and he took it really hard. I don't know if he still has any contact with her (but if he does it's limited because he spends a LOT of time with us now, can be reached at his apartment nights now, and the cell phone calls between him and her during daughters' visitation have stopped). But I suspect he still wants her back - just can't talk her into making up again this time.

I can't really say whether I am doing a Plan A or Plan B. It's a wierd situation. Part of the reason he agreed to sign year-long separation agreement (besides some legal problems) was he was demanding to still have extensive contact with me after divorce. He wanted to be allowed to come over almost daily, to hang out in my home watching videos, sharing holiday celebrations, etc. and to even have me come along all day or evening with daughters' visitation. I said absolutely not once the divorce is final he could pick up and drop off our daughters out front and he'd only see me at daughters' weddings. So year long separation agreement was a compromise allowing him 'visitation' with me and giving me more time to hope we would reconcile and avoid divorce.

So I see him a lot but am trying to not call him, not bring up relationship, not pressure him, and not get sucked into arguments. He sometimes acts very friendly (calling me honey or hugging me using habit or kids as excuse) but then backs way off again putting up a wall and not asking me to come along during visitation with kids. I am learning to not react to this - just keep my cool, be polite and open but not clingy or expecting. Meanwhile I am setting up boundaries all around myself: informing him politely but firmly that because he insists we will never reconcile, decisions regarding my finances, household, time, etc. are not open to discussion. BTW, he sometimes acts jealous and asks our children where I am if I'm not here when he comes over to see them. When I say he won't be allowed to come over and spend time with me like this once the divorce is final, because I will want to date then and maybe remarry, he makes ridiculous comments like I'm too old to date (which I laugh at of course).

So at least partly maybe I am doing something sort of like a Plan B? I don't know. He only started spending time with us again a few months ago so I feel more time is needed for him to bond with us, and more time for him to get over addiction to her and to accept she's not going to take him back, before I try anything like an ultimatum or real Plan B. Besides, we already were separated for 1.5 years with very little contact and (he says) that's what 'caused' him to have affair...

Anyway, my question is:

Assuming he can't manage to get back with his girlfriend, how long do you think it will take for him to get over her? I think he's unwilling to commit to trying to save our marriage until he loses hope she will take him back. Are there any statistics about how long it typically takes someone to lose those feelings that they are 'in love' after the break-up is final?

Meanwhile I really don't know whether I should try to be more loving towards him or give him more space right now? A few times he admitted that it makes him 'nervous' to be around me because it's too tempting. Is it a mistake therefore for me to back off and wait for him to make advances? Or should I wait until he shows signs his addiction to her is over and he's interested in me again?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by shyness:
<strong>.....Anyway, my question is:

Assuming he can't manage to get back with his girlfriend, how long do you think it will take for him to get over her? I think he's unwilling to commit to trying to save our marriage until he loses hope she will take him back. Are there any statistics about how long it typically takes someone to lose those feelings that they are 'in love' after the break-up is final?

Meanwhile I really don't know whether I should try to be more loving towards him or give him more space right now? A few times he admitted that it makes him 'nervous' to be around me because it's too tempting. Is it a mistake therefore for me to back off and wait for him to make advances? Or should I wait until he shows signs his addiction to her is over and he's interested in me again?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The questions you ask have no answers. No one can predict exactly how the WS will react except to say that it will probably irrational. So you need ot realize that you can not control his actions nor teach him anything of value at this time.

What are you to do? Right now you s/b working on bettering yourself. Learn about plan A and B. Understand the reason for each one and don't let it make you into a doormat. You can execute a good plan A then B without belittling yourself. It takes patience and skill but it will have benefits.

In the interim, pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. Your H is too much in the fog and too much in a euphoric state to be thinking of the interests of his family. So right now do not give him your family's trust. He is not safe with that sacred commodity.

IMHO,
L.

shyness - I can't believe I'm giving advice (since my relationship is such a mess)but I will let you know what worked for me. In my mind I decided that while my goal is to get back together, I will prepare for the possibility that we won't. Forced myself to take care of me - started exercising (lost 25 pounds), got into a women's bible study group (big source of support), started reading and journaling (The Purpose Driven Life), went out with any friends going anywhere - Mexico, jazz festival, casino, even football.I cleaned house like a crazy person, got rid of old clothes, rearranged furniture, working on sunporch now, drywalled and painted the bathroom, etc. Neighbors and friends have volunteered to help. Whenever I think about H, I immediately make my brain focus on making changes in the garden, or what kind of curtains would look better in bathroom. Well my relationship is still all screwed up, but I feel great about house, self and everything else in my life, have found a new purpose, etc. It sure beats obsessing about H. It's hard to start but once you do, you'll love the new you.

Hi Orchid,

Thanks for your response:

"The questions you ask have no answers. No one can predict exactly how the WS will react except to say that it will probably irrational. So you need ot realize that you can not control his actions nor teach him anything of value at this time."

Yes, I guess I will just have to be patient. What I've observed agrees with the WS's reaction being predictable only in that it will be irrational. And he really is nowhere near wanting to learn how to solve any problems. But I'm not sure how I should be acting right now.

Today he told me he purposely tries to 'stay hot about' and 'hate me' for getting a restraining order because he wants to make sure we never reconcile. In the 26 years we had together, that's the reason he comes up with for hating me? That I got a restraining order to protect myself and wouldn't cancel it because he refused to go to anger management counseling? This isn't the first time he's admitted he struggles with making sure he doesn't 'forgive' me or start feeling desire or love for me. So that's why I sometimes wonder if maybe doing something like a Plan B would be a mistake right now? I mean if he has to fight that hard to keep a wall up wouldn't it be really effective if I acted loving towards him right now more like a Plan A? He WANTS me to shut him out and/or argue with him.

"What are you to do? Right now you s/b working on bettering yourself. Learn about plan A and B. Understand the reason for each one and don't let it make you into a doormat. You can execute a good plan A then B without belittling yourself. It takes patience and skill but it will have benefits."

I didn't find this site until recently but think I already did something like a Plan A & Plan B. I think I made a lot of mistakes doing them though and it didn't work. Also, we've decided on a compromise allowing him visitation with me until the divorce is final. It's probably more like a Plan A but I don't think I can put up with it much longer. I'm certain he's trying to hurt or anger me enough to shut him out again. That way he doesn't have to worry about us getting closer and he can blame it on me for 'rejecting' him.

"In the interim, pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. Your H is too much in the fog and too much in a euphoric state to be thinking of the interests of his family."

I don't know if I would call my husband's state euphoric right now but agree he's definitely in a fog. I've never seen him so unhappy. Sometimes he acts smug and is obviously trying to hurt me, but mostly he's a mess and not having much fun himself. I had never seen him cry until recently (but he's mostly upset about his girlfriend dumping him - not about us).

"So right now do not give him your family's trust. He is not safe with that sacred commodity."

This is what I'm torn about. It seems he is very vulnerable right now to developing positive feelings towards me again as he admits he has to fight hard not to. So wouldn't this be a good time for a Plan A? But you're absolutely right about not being able to trust him. At times he admits that he wants to hurt us - to get even for hurting him (he thinks of himself as the sole victim of the separation and the kids and I were being 'meanheads') He's unforgiving and majorly holding a grudge. So does that mean a Plan B would be better?

He invites me along to do things with him and the kids but sometimes totally ignores me then as if I'm not even with them. Then suddenly he decides I can't come along with them anymore, about a week later invites me along again, only to sort of dump me again. He doesn't like it if I make other plans and don't show any expectation or interest in spending time with him - THEN he will ask me to come along again. So it's sort of like we're in extremely short cycles (about a week or two in length) of him spending time with me (enough to keep me hanging on and hoping?) and then rejecting me (to keep distance and to take revenge?) I know I can't/won't continue like this much longer. I don't have to honor the agreement to let him come in my home and for me to go along on visitation - it's not part of the written separation agreement of course.

I think he's being emotionally abusive to us and sometimes think we all should just not have anything to do with him until he knocks that off and/or agrees to go to family counseling with us. But the visitation is up to our daughters - I don't try to force or to prevent them from seeing him. But he can pick them up out front and not see me.

Hi Believer,

Thanks for the advice.

"shyness - I can't believe I'm giving advice (since my relationship is such a mess)but I will let you know what worked for me."

Actually I think it's very good advice and that's exactly what I've been doing for some time now (been separated a little over 1 1/2 years).

"In my mind I decided that while my goal is to get back together, I will prepare for the possibility that we won't."

Yup - I think that's an excellent idea! When I have those emotional roller coaster, can't decide what to do days, I try to think of what needs to be done, what would be an improvement to my life, regardless of whether we reconcile or divorce. (sort of like the overlapping part of a Venn diagram)

"Forced myself to take care of me - started exercising (lost 25 pounds), got into a women's bible study group (big source of support), started reading and journaling (The Purpose Driven Life), went out with any friends going anywhere - Mexico, jazz festival, casino, even football.I cleaned house like a crazy person, got rid of old clothes, rearranged furniture, working on sunporch now, drywalled and painted the bathroom, etc. Neighbors and friends have volunteered to help."

I lost 30 pounds (and therefore had to get new clothes LOL), am very active physically and socially (um and should get my house clean and organized - just starting to de-clutter).

"Whenever I think about H, I immediately make my brain focus on making changes in the garden, or what kind of curtains would look better in bathroom. Well my relationship is still all screwed up, but I feel great about house, self and everything else in my life, have found a new purpose, etc. It sure beats obsessing about H. It's hard to start but once you do, you'll love the new you."

I sometimes remember to just think "STOP" if I start feeling depressed, hopeless, or not good enough, especially if I start thinking about the OW and how he thinks so much more highly of her than of me (ugh). I remind myself that he'll be extremely lucky if we stay together and that if we don't it will be his loss and I can walk away knowing I honestly tried my best. I've really made an effort to fix my problems and take responsibility for things I could have done better (without caving to pressure form him to take 100% blame and pretend his choices were my fault too).

I think today maybe I have been obsessing about him somewhat. It started because yesterday he todl me I don't deserve any credit for staying with him through several affairs and for offering reconciliation now because I supposedly 'had to', 'had no choice'?!? He wouldn't explain (I'm assuming because I'm a stay-at-home-Mom he wants to pretend I only stayed so he'd support me?) I pointed out that he had to pay my rent because he's legally required to, I don't have to sleep with him or even smile at him for that. I took the bait and got angry enough to tell him he could just start picking the kids up out front and I wouldn't see him anymore. So this morning he called and invited us ALL to dinner Wednesday night. This is the first thing he's invited me to do in a couple of weeks. I asked him why he was inviting me along again - he wouldn't answer. I told him I thought it was only because I had said I didn't want to see him anymore, that he would invite me along a few times, and then dump me again just to get some sick kick out of rejecting me. I also told him I thought he owed me an apology for what he'd said the day before. He didn't want to talk about that either. And then he told me how he reminds himself to 'stay hot about' the restraining order, makes sure he keeps hating me, to make sure we don't reconcile.
SO WHY would he ask me to go out to dinner with him and the kids then?!? What a jerk.

Right now I mostly feel like I should dump him once and for all - he definitely doesn't deserve or appreciate me. And THAT is probably EXACTLY what he wants me to feel like, right? So he doesn't have to worry about having to fight off postive feelings for me huh?

I told the kids about the invite and left it up to them if they wanted to go. Two said no and one said maybe then changed it to no, so I called him and said nobody wanted to go. He called back and asked what that was all about - I just said the kids and I didn't want to go and didn't say why.

shyness - sounds like you're doing good. Don't take any of this personally, these people are not thinking right. I don't mean because they are not doing what we would like, but half the time I think they don't even know what they are doing. My H is very defensive of OW and does not want to hurt her. He shows no caring about me (actions, not words). Wrote me letter that he loved me and wanted to get with me and called her same night (found out from her H) and left message on answering machine that he loved her and letter was big mistake. I am sticking with Plan B to protect my love for him, because at the rate this thing is going, I'm afraid I would soon lose it. But every day I'm feeling better about things. Hang in here, get advice and take your time deciding what to do. Good luck.

Thanks Believer,

I'm feeling a bit better after posting here (venting LOL) and the advice I've gotten so far seems pretty good.

I agree he seems to have no clue what he wants right now so I guess it's sort of silly for me to take it so personally or try to figure it out what it means.

I had decided a couple of weeks ago to refuse to listen to any more of his praising of the OW. It was one of many subjects I told him I would only discuss with him in the presence of a counselor. But it really got to me yesterday though when he claimed my only reason for staying with him was that I had no choice! Because he had made a big deal about praising her and giving her tons of credit when she took him back after a six day separation - pointing out she didn't have to do that. So I blew it yesterday and told him she probably DID have to take him back because she probably wanted him to pay her rent or car payment. I said he had to support me and our kids without my having to even speak to or smile at him, let alone sleep with him but he was stupid if he didn't realize SHE probbaly took him back some of the times she broke up with him because she needed his money. Love-busting I know...

I will just have to sit back now, not going to call him for at least a week or answer the phone when he calls (kids choose for themselves whether they talk to or see him). And I certainly won't invite him in or go along for visitation.

If that's a mistake, just helps him keep his distance, I guess that's a risk I'll have to take for this week anyway. Because I don't think I can trust myself to keep my cool and not do more love busting right now.

Thanks for the support. It really does help.

I was wondering if I should send him a Plan B letter? Or because my situation is so strange, with us having agreed to him being allowed visitation with me during the year separation (a factor in why he agreed to delay divorce - demanding to see me which I said absolutely would not happen after divorce) should I send him a letter detailing conditions for visitation with me during separation? I don't have a problem with seeing him, allowing him to come in my home to hang out, watch videos, join us for holidays - I agreed to allow that until divorce. I also agreed to go along with him and kids on visitation, if he invited me, until divorce.

BUT I did not agree to put up with verbal abuse, to listen to him praise his girlfriend or put me down, to hearing comments about how he hates me and is going to make sure we will never reconcile (he HAD said he was willing to 'take it one day at a time' and just didn't want to be pressured).

I also did not agree to let him have control over or to even discuss with him: my finances, whether or not I decide to move to another house, where I go when I'm not home, what 'we' will do if he gets laid off. I responded: "WHAT 'we'?" and told him I guess if he loses his job he'd better get another job ASAP and if we hadn't started reconciliation by then it would be none of his business what WE (my daughters and I) did! We might move to another state to be near relatives, might move to a smaller house, I might get a job, or I could marry somebody else who could support me.

But the biggest problem I have with our current agreement is that he apparently expects me to keep it a secret that he sees me! I never agreed to that. So I told him a couple of weeks ago to think it over (for a couple of weeks) and if he still had a problem with people knowing we spend time together then he could just start picking the kids up out front, I wouldn't go anywhere with him, and he could forget about being invited to my home for the holidays or to hang out and watch videos, etc.

Also, in addition to the old lies which he has yet to straighten out he is telling new ones. He admits a big hindrance to our ever being able to reconcile is he would find it hard to explain the lies he told to his fmaily and coworkers to justify his affair. His family still believes I prevented him from seeing the kids during the separation and that he DID complete anger management counseling but I STILL wouldn't let him come home. His family also was never told about the affair and think it's just 'suspicion' on my part and pointed to as an example of what supposedly caused our marital problems in the first place... He told the family therapist on the first visit that I was trying to prevent him from having a relationship with his daughters and denied he comes to my house up to 5 times per week and requested to spend time with me too - not just kids. He also told her I was making him the scapegoat for everything, was trying to control HIM and wouldn't LET him have a girlfriend (um his girlfriend had already dumped him and of course neither of them asked for my permission before starting their adultery - I didn't ENDORSE his adultery but didn't exactly have any control over it either), that our kids have NO friends because of homeschooling (outrageously false - their social calendars are bursting with activity and I wish I was as popular as they are when I was a teen!), and started screaming that he hated me for mentioning his biological father and insisted his stepfather was his real father (yup - right in front of the family therapist). Apparently I was supposed to keep it a secret that after his parents' divorce he never saw his biological father again and they just pretended he never existed. I guess I had naively assumed that with his girlfriend out of the picture, him spending so much time with us, and the divorce delayed for a year, he would gradually start getting better and unraveling the lies instead of telling more of them and making the mess even worse. And I'm guessing he's been telling others that the reason he signed the separation agreement to delay divorce was I somehow forced him to; if he still wants it kept secret that he spends time with me it's not logical to assume he told them about our agreement to delay divorce because I refused to spend time with him after divorce.

So right now I don't feel I should honor the agreement to allow him to spend time with me and in my home. Should I spell out the conditions necessary for that to resume again, maybe insist we discuss it with the assitance of a counselor, and maybe even sign and notarize it?
Sometimes I even feel as if I shouldn't accept any invitations to go somewhere with him unless he posts the invitation on his family's wepbage or maybe invites some coworkers along sometimes? But I don't know, something about that makes me feel uncomfortable? It's hard to explain how it would make me feel to request that - just creepy.

He says he and his girlfriend are broke up for good but I don't believe it was mutual. I'm sure if she'd agree to it he'd go back to her again. So sometimes I think he doesn't invite me along because he's worried she will see us togethher and blow his campaign to talk her into seeing him again. She was VERY jealous and controlling - making him check in and even stalking us and harrassing him by cell phone once when she saw us together. She was even suspicious and envious of the time he spent with our daughters. So I wish I knew who she was and could tell her the truth about why he agreed to delay divorce, about him demanding to spend time with me. But she probably wouldn't believe me anyway, would just enrage him, and hopefully she's won't take him back anyway. I guess after a while he'll accept that and then won't have such a hang-up about being seen with me?