Here is the first draft. I know you will all tell me there is allot in there that should not be, but it is who I am. I am hesitant to post it because i feel it is what i want to say, but you will tell me it is no good. I am posting it because I respect you all and am willling to hear your critisisms. Let me have it

I want you to know that I do not blame you nor do I hate you for anything you have done. You may not believe that is possible, but it is. I have put great effort into understanding how and why this happened and believe now I do understand. What has happened in our marriage/relationship has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen with many many other people like us. It is normal. Unfortunately, people don’t learn about any of this until it happens to them. There are so many way this could have been avoided. We simply did not know what to do or even that we needed to do something. Here are some things that I/we have learned:

1. Men and women have different emotional needs.
2. The loss of romantic love in a long-term relationship is inevitable.
3. Lost romantic love can be found again if it is lost.
4. A good marriage is not affair proof.
5. Love grows from friendship, mutual understanding, and communication.
6. Love goes when any one of the above is lost.
7. An emotional bond can create strong physical attraction between two people.
8. The only person who can make you feel whole is yourself.
9. Once someone learns to be whole themselves, they can be whole in any relationship.
10. Having a sense of ones self is key to their feeling complete in the world and in a relationship.
11. There are reasons why we feel the way we feel.
12. Conversely, there are reasons why we stop feeling certain feelings.
13. Anything is possible.
14. Relationships that come from affairs almost always fail.
15. “Marriages that survive affairs are the best marriages.” (Kay Klein)

I understand that you have a very real love for another man. I understand that he is filling some emotional needs that you have and that I was not filling those emotional needs for you. Your comment about you feeling like he needs you to make him feel whole suggests to me that feeling needed is an important emotional need you have. Perhaps you don’t believe that I need you. The truth is that I am a very confident person. I have not required much outward support from you in the past. What may not be so obvious to you is that my confidence has always come from knowing you were behind me/ in my corner. I very much need you in my corner. I regret that did not make that clearer to you sooner.
I also realize that the connection you feel with him has allowed you to become very sexually attracted to him as well. This attraction probably comes from feeling connected to him emotionally. I understand and appreciate that this means allot to you. You have been wanting that feeling for a long time and felt for a long time that something was wrong with you. Now you know there is nothing wrong with you. Now we both know. This knowing is new for us. We wrote it off along time ago as not possible, but now we know it is. If we hadn’t accepted this years ago, and instead found ways to find that lost sex drive, we would have been way ahead of the game and probably not in this situation. Our ignorance and lack of appreciation crippled our chances at filling that need. We are no longer ignorant nor do we lack the appreciation needed to fill that need now.
You and I have learned so much. I believe we both now understand that it is possible for these feelings to be found in our relationship as well. If I can learn to fill those emotional needs for you, love will follow. It would take allot of work, but we have begun to identify your needs and you now have a sense of your self which is vital to creating a life for yourself and with me that you/we are satisfied with.
I know that the thought of giving up a relationship that feels so right, as yours does with him, feels like it would be the hardest/saddest thing you have ever do. I know you do not think you are capable of it and most likely you do not want to. I do not expect you to have any other feelings at this time. You are indeed capable of it however. If you choose to work on our marriage/relationship in the hopes that you could find in me what you have found in him, I want you to know that I would support you while you morn the loss of him. It sounds crazy that I would support your missing another man, but I understand that it would be very difficult for you to give him up. I understand this but still must ask you to do just that. I do not wish to cause you pain by asking this of you, but I know it would be painful for you. Please remember, whichever way you decide to go will be painful. Not only for you, but for him or myself. I am certain however, that the greatest pain would be my own if you do not choose our marriage/relationship. You must understand that I am not being selfish here. If I did not believe that you could find even greater happiness in a relationship with me, I would not ask this of you. I truly want what is best for you.
We are at a crossroads now. We need to make a choice of how we want your lives to go. Both options present challenges and opportunity. There is much more opportunity in our relationship than there has ever been before. I think we have both come to realize that. This experience has showed us how much more we are capable of and how much more we deserve.
If you decide to continue your relationship with him, I must, for my own mental health, remove myself from abuse of our current situation. The affair, neglect, and abuse is so painful for me that I fear it will destroy the love I have for you if I allow myself to be in situation where you are seeing him and I am sitting at home. In order for me to protect those feeling, which I hold so dear, I will have to end all contact with you if you decide to continue the affair. I do not mean a simple separation to give you time to figure things out. I will have to begin working on a new life for myself without you. I hope you understand that separating myself from you will be the hardest thing I have ever done and that is the last thing that I want to happen.
Honestly, I do not know if I could ever forgive you if you decide to continue the affair and give me up. As you know, respect is important to me. You have been disrespecting me very much until now. Something, which I do not deserve. I must respect someone in order to want them in my life as a wife and a friend. Until now, what you have done has been understandable given the circumstances. Not that I agree, but I do understand. If you decide not to take all that we have learned and apply it to our relationship now and give us the chance that we deserve, I will lose all respect for you. This is not meant to be a threat. It is a simple fact and I am only being honest. I hope with all my heart that it does not come to that.
When I dream of building a new life together, one neither of us knew was possible or even that we wanted or needed it so much, sounds like the greatest adventure I could imagine. The journey of our lives together could truly begin now. The thought of it is very exciting to me.
Sara…I have always been there for you as much as I have known how. I realize that I was not there for you in some ways. We were both guilty of that. We know so much more today than we did only a short time ago. We are capable of so much more than we were before. I know that I can be there for you more now than I have ever been before. You can count on me to work with you to find everything needed to build a life together that fulfills both of us completely. I am endlessly devoted to that and you. You know the kind of person I am. I am a good man, I am honest, I am courteous, I am compassionate, I am caring, I am loving, I am forgiving I am honorable, and I am a capable person who wishes to be there for you. If you decide to invest in me and begin to rebuild our love for each other, you will not be taking a chance. You will be taking an opportunity.

This letter is not meant to convince you of anything. It is an expression of truth and honesty. Take it for what it is worth and make a decision.

Lets not end this marriage/relationship/friendship over something we could mend.

I love you and hope that one day soon you will feel the same for me again.

<small>[ October 12, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Neb ]</small>

Neb

Your wife and mine would really get along together, amazing since I (presume) you're in the US and I'm in New Zealand.

My wife has tried many times to justify her selfish, destructive affair by explaining her need to "get to know him better" so she can make a decision between me & him.

We have done counselling together, and alone. We both know why our marriage ended up at this sad juncture. We have both learnt a lot about each other.

I have been through the wicked cycle of emotions - shock, anger, pain, inward rage, outward (but not violent) rage, depression, deep sadness, regret, denial. But I have arrived at the most important of all - acceptance. I love my W - I have expressed to her many times my desire to rebuild. However the time came to let her go - I could feel my feelings change to bitterness, and that's the danger signal to create your own paths toward whatever the outcome may be.

Last Friday (we are still living together whilst we sort out sep.living arrangements) the OM came back into town. She told me she wanted to see him. I told her to leave.

So she packed her bag, kissed our daughter good bye, and headed off to a rather average 3 star motel with the OM.

She'll be away 4 days - and to tell you the truth I hope she realises what she is doing. She'll be without her daughter, without her house and all the things she feels comfortable with. Above all she'll have the opportunity to see the OM belch, fart, pick his nose, etc. The fantasy will have faded - welcome to the real world.

Be warned though - don't do this without REALLY accepting the fact that she may never come back. Remember the MB Plan A/B process is a framework - use it, as I know it has helped me - but also try to listen to your heart and head, however difficult it may be.

Have I done the right thing? Well, I can't answer that now, but what I do know is that I feel a peace inside for the first time in ages. If you like I'll keep you updated.

My only piece of advice is to look after yourself - try and eat well, get as much sleep as you can and do some exercise - it all helps.

I wish you all the luck in the world and my thoughts are with you.

Ziggy

------------------------------------
Where is the life that I recognize?
Gone away. But I won't cry for yesterday,there's an ordinary world somehow I have to find. And as I try to make my way to the ordinary world I will learn to survive.

Neb,
from my point of view the letter is to way to long and goes into far to much detail.

all you really need to say is that you still love her and want her and the marriage but what's she currently doing is very hurtful, painful and disrespectful to you...and that every day it continues, you lose more and more of that love and respect for her.

then tell her that you are going to agree to her suggestion to seperate...but not just for a month...that you want no further contact with her of any kind....for as long as it takes... until she decides that you and the marraige are what she wants.

then tell her that you're intention is not to be small or petty but is intended to safe gaurd what ever posative feelings for her that you still retain...and that you will be glad to hear from her once she makes a decision, but not before.

then end it by asking her to respect your wishes in this matter and to please understand.

and that's it. and by the way...writing it is the easy part! sticking to it is the hard part...so understand the ramifications of what you are about to do. you are tossing down the gauntlet...this is not a position that you can back of off and still be creditable. once you say NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND UNTILL YOU ARE READY TO GIVE UP THE OM FOR GOOD...and set that as your terms, then you must ignore her phone calls, e-mails, v/m messages and all the other little ways that she will find to get back into your head.

good luck.
coach

Much MUCH too long. If I was to receive this letter, I cannot figure out that you want to reconcile or that you are doing “no contact” or for what reason if I did get that.

Too “educational.” Don‘t point out everything which you feel needs to be done/could have been done.

Follow the example in “Surviving An Affair“. It doesn’t need to be changed much at all from that.

It should be basically:
1 - I love you.
2 - I made mistakes in the past. I apologize & I am learning. I want that chance.
3 - Your affair hurts me. I cannot continue contact until you end your affair. When you end you’re affair and all contact with op, then we can discuss our future together.
4 - Any contact will be through (Mr. Friend).
5 - I love you.

O.K. You are right. This is not a Plan B letter. This is a last chance before the Plan B letter. I will right a PBL now and if she is not receptive to this letter, I will give her the PBL. I will post it in the morning hopefully.
I do have a question. After giving her this letter, how much time do you think i ought to give her to repond. I am thinking I will give it to her Tues night and arrange to meet Wed night. She has counseling Wed afternoon, which would give her a chance to discuss it in counseling. I guess I am not quite ready to give her the PBL. I need to give her one more chance to discuss this and convince me that she will not give him up now. I know the answer already, but what can I say I am a clutton for punishment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Neb,

Why addict still addicted .... b/c they can ! Until they face rock bottom they won't quit !.

Even you are not ready to give PBL, draft it !.

-rh-

This is a last chance before the Plan B letter. I will right a PBL now and if she is not receptive to this letter,
I wouldn’t recommend you send this letter at all.
It might be all you are feeling and it helps to write it all down, but this letter is not something you should send.

Chris...Why? How does it weaken my cause?

Neb,

This is a great letter...but not a plan B letter for the reasons already mentioned. One thing that cerri told be about plan B is that most people enter it with the idea of shocking the WS into making a choice or taking action....and truly that is not what it's for. Plan A is about the WS....but plan B is about you. Not what you two have learned together, but about the decision to protect the love you have left. Your letter shouldn't be about teaching, summarizing, dramatizing, sentimentalizing....but rather a clear, simple short statement about the fact that the affair is too painful and that you still want the marriage but need to separate until the lover is gone. By all means, say these things to your wife....but save the formality of a letter for the real Plan B. Make the PBL stand alone in it's form and not diluted by another letter whose intent is for a different purpose. Plan B is about you taking control of your own destiny and being willing to move on if the affair does not end. Talk to your wife some more before doing that....because I don't think you're quite ready. Good luck.

It's full of love busters. It sounds as if you are talking to a little child (and you ARE, in a way, but you do not need to do it with the tone of this letter.) You are trying to educate her, and makes it seem as if she knows nothing. She'll just pull further away.

know that the thought of giving up a relationship that feels so right, as yours does with him, feels like it would be the hardest/saddest thing you have ever do. I know you do not think you are capable of it and most likely you do not want to.
This and many other statements;
You are telling her what SHE is thinking and feeling. Very bad.

I know that the thought of giving up a relationship that feels so right, as yours does with him, feels like it would be the hardest/saddest thing you have ever do.
So why should she do it? If I stick where I am, I don't have to feel all this pain you are kindly pointing out.

Honestly, I do not know if I could ever forgive you if you decide to continue the affair and give me up.
This is an implied threat. Besides, she would probably not expect you to forgive her EVEN if she did return. By saying this, you are simply fulfilling what she already thinks will happen.

I could go on but this letter is full of these types of examples.

I didn't give her the letter. We talked instead and I took all of your advise. It worked!!!

She said she wants to work on things with me and put the other guy "on hold". I know that is not the ideal, but it is a great start.

The only problem is that she wants to see him alone to tell him. They will be 4-5 hours from me and completely capable of doing anything they want. Should I allow this or would I be a fool?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Neb:
<strong>The only problem is that she wants to see him alone to tell him. They will be 4-5 hours from me and completely capable of doing anything they want. Should I allow this or would I be a fool?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not recomnended by MB. Could you clarify "on hold" means ? ... NC or really OnHold ?.

-rh-

I will talk today with her about what she means by "on hold". I didn't want to push it last night. I also know her seeing him is a bad idea, but she is determined to this her way.
Anybody have any suggestions on how an alternative I could suggest to her that she might be receptive to?

Neb,

This is my impression. Again, I will not sugar coat it.

She is manipulating you.

She is essentially saying she would put him "on hold" whereas before she wanted to put you "on hold." She is not making a decision, and as long as she knows he is waiting in the wings, your R is going to be compared to their R (which is a fantasy and unreal). It is completely unfair, and she will not be able to (or motivated to) work on your R in the way that she will need to.

You are again looking for the optimism. Is this what you want ? I don't think so. I think you feel you will have to settle because you don't think you are worth enough for her to do more. Nor do you think she believes you are worth enough. BUT YOU ARE!!!!!!

Neb, SHE's the one who had the A! She's in the wrong for that! YOU need to see that and stand up for yourself.

No, she should not get to go see him by herself, IMHO. If she wants to do it in person, you can go with her. Or she can do it over the phone with you there. Or she can send a letter that you read first. Your instincts are right - who knows what could happen. And do you really want to settle for her telling him that she's going to "go through the motions" with you, but she will come back to him? Will she say that - I don't know - but she could if she's alone with him.

Don't settle! If you've read Torn Asunder by Dave Carder (which I highly suggest everyone to read), it stresses the importance of the WS grieving over the loss of OP. If they don't, then odds are they expect to resume with the OP later. Which is exactly what your W is trying to get you to agree to. TRUST YOURSELF more, Neb. If she doesn't grieve OM's loss, then she will not really be trying in recovery, and you guys will have a false recovery. You will have a false recovery! And you risk having this happen all over again!

She needs to decide what she wants. Some people can't do it until backed into the corner. And even then, sometimes they choose the wrong thing (as often happens in Plan B) at first. But then they come to and realize what is good. As long as you keep compromising your needs for her with regards to the A, then you are prolonging this misery.....

There is no POJA-ing in an A! Only POJA in your M. Stand up for yourself. You wanting her to end contact with OM forever is NOT an unreasonable request. She is a cakeeater, and you are letting her be. Stop it now!

OK? Please, stop it now......stand up for yourself. Protect yourself. As a giver, sometimes it's really hard for us to be selfish. But be selfish on this. It's important.

I did it!!! I stood up for myself! I told her my terms and that I was not going to accept anything less. That combined with much wisdom from a friend who met with WS, led her back to the decision to work things out with me. No longer is she saying she will be putting him "on hold". She is going to end it completely...she says. The only problem is that she must do it on her own and face-to-face. I know this is risky, but for her, she must do it her way or not at all. Allot of this is her taking reponsibility. Anyway...we are going to begin (very slowly) to rebuild our marriage/relationship. I am cautiously confident that she is for real this time. We start counseling next week (couples). We will set up the boundaries and goals then. For now, I just want to thank you all once more for all your thoughts/ideas/insights which I have listened to an applied so many times. It has deffinitely helped get me where I am today. I only hope that it is truly for real. I am trying not to get my hopes up, but it is hard not to. Wish me luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Neb! I'm so glad.....I'm a little nervous about her wanting to stop things in person with him, but as long as she commits 100% to you, then that's great!

Kudos to you for standing up for what you believe in. Fill us in more later, OK?

Neb,
sorry good buddy but she should not be meeting him for a fond fairwell! she just should not!

it's like smoking one more pack of cigerettes before giving them up for good...simply because you have them and don't want to throw them away!? please!

well guess what? if you have half a carton left and throw them away what does that say about your comittment to giving up the habit as apposed to smoking that last half carton?

not a great analogy i know but do you get my point?

in my opinion, what you two should be doing is writing a "NO CONTACT" letter together...and it should be short and very specific. it should be of the "i made a huge mistake...and don't ever call me or be in cobntact with me again, PERIOD" variety. AND YOU NEED TO BE THE ONE TO MAIL IT!

coach

I didn't want to push it last night. I also know her seeing him is a bad idea, but she is determined to this her way.
So now is the time for you to start using the POJA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Harely says if the ws had their way, it would be a face-to-face, 2 week cruise to "end" the affair. And it never really ends when this happens.

The no-contact letter does a couple of things:
1 - Emotions do not get in the way of ending it. Seeing the op and thinking about ending it will get the ws all giddy.
2 - It shows the bs that the ws is concerned about their feelings. This helps enormously.
3 - It gives the affair a finality.
4 - It gives the op, the ws AND the bs a finality so they can begin to move on.

I'm new to this and I may be wrong. I certainly don't want to complicate matters.

But on 10 October in the middle of a long post you mentioned that you were considering telling everyone, including his colleagues and friends, what is going on.

According to Dr Harley that should have been your very first step. A's thrive on secrecy and immediately become more difficult when exposed.

Problem is it will make your WW angry so maybe you should now hold off from the disclosure option until you see whether she has really ended the A.

Suggest you try to get her to understand and accept the POJA. If she decides to end the A in person explain again why you think this is unwise but don't get into an argument about it.

Do this without LBing by explaining it in terms of your fear that it will give OM an opportunity to talk her out of it. Which of course is true.

My WH also wanted to tell her "at work", but I suggested the letter, which he jumped at (since he was a little chicken to do it face-to-face). So he emailed her from home, with my "approving" the letter. Of course, she then left a vmail saying she didn't believe he wrote it! He then said, I'll call her...you be on the extension so you can hear everything said". This was horrible to listen to, but at the same time, he put himself on the line for me and she never knew I heard her pleading for him not to end it. It gave me some satisfaction, as he finally "went to bat" for me. You may want to come to a compromise like this. But make sure you don't make comments into the phone!! - It was hard not to tell her what I thought of her, but I'm glad I had self-control and saved my own dignity.