...should I just throw in the towel?

I've been doing Plan A since I suspected the EA. It's only been an average Plan A, though. Sometimes I surprise myself on how well I can fulfill ENs, but then I'm not above an LB here or there. WS has never expressed remorse about A since D-day. Once and awhile he's sorry that he's lied to me, betrayed me, and hurt me, but he rationalizes the A with the fact that our M was crap (it was).

This whole time he's been trying to decide whether he wants to stay in the M, go with OW, or separate from both of us (I don't believe that one for a second).

He only finally agreed to NC last week when OW dumped him. Apparently he's been trying to end the A for a couple of weeks. Well, he just asked OW for a 'break'. She was not thrilled with it and when he brought it up again last week, she blurted out that she was not going to call or text msg him.

Unfortunately, she couldn't leave well enough alone. The next day she text msgs things like, "You lied", "I've finally figured it out", "You're still sleeping in the same bed", "You're still having sex with her", "You still tell her that you love her".

WS was distraught! His words. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> He "had" to see her the next day and said they agreed to NC again.

Well, WS broke it only a week later. He told her he still loves her, etc. Well, I really don't know what the etc is, cuz he tries to slant everything so that he won't hurt me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
They talked again for 20 minutes yesterday.
He says they don't have plans to meet.

Is this actually the time for Plan A or am I just fooling myself? I understand Plan A is for after NC has been agreed to, so am I just at the beginning? BTW, there has been no NC letter. Do I insist on the letter or else go to Plan B?

<small>[ October 24, 2003, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: lbc ]</small>

lbc,
I cannot believe how in the same boat you and I are? Are we married to the same man? My WH has been spending the last 5 months trying to decide between our M, the OW, or neither, also. Of course, he continues to spend more time w/ OW and allowing that R to grow and develop, more than our M. So, in a way, I believe he's made his choice already.

Our M wasn't crap, but H tried to make himself believe that so he could investigate the possiblity of the A. He's at least admitted that much to me, that he made our M seem way worse that it really was.

We also do not have NC. In fact, for the last month, H has been looking for reasons to call it off with OW, and about 3 weeks ago, found out she had lied to him, yet again, about a "one night stand," w/ another man, so he felt that was enough to end it with her. Well, the withdrawal was too strong, and it started to bother him that he wasn't ready to give it up, so he called her back a week later. Now, she believes they're pretty much exclusive.

I feel like you, that Plan A isn't really working, maybe Plan B will be more effective. I'm just wondering if my H would be as quick to call me back as he was OW? I really believe he thinks I will NEVER leave him.

What to do, what to do?

MOP

lbc,

Start draft plan B letter and ready to hand it to him. Why ? at this point you just enabling his A. Don't LB but ask him about the NC, let him make promises for ammend if he break it again. Plan A is not enabeling.

Now you say your M was a crap, does it now ?.

If you throw your WH to OW, does she ready to take him emotionally, physically and financially ?. Is she single or M ?.

-rh-

Mother and LBC: I can really relate to both of you. My H confessed his A on 10/6, actually told the MC that he had broken off contact except for whatever contact he has through work (she works for his client) about 3 weeks back. I didn't really believe it, although I wanted to and I confirmed last night that he is lying about that.

He's also trying to decide whether to stay in the M or leave. He keeps saying that if he leaves he wouldn't be leaving for her, but I think that's a load of crap of he would have left already??? What do you think??? He tells me that he loves her, not me, yada yada yada and that he can F**** me or let me F**** him but that he doesn't feel anything. Have you experienced this with your H???

I'd love to hear your perspectives. You could also email me at besthope42000@yahoo.com.

Thanks,
Hope

Hope4Best,

I pitch in ...

If you throw your WH to OW, does she ready to take him emotionally, physically and financially ?. Is she single or M ?.

Listen to his crap ... he gave you a lot of plan A materials but you have to weed it out which ones are.

I would draft plan B letter and ask your MC his/her professional oppinion.

-rh-

Redhat, she is currently married. Last week at our MC session my H said her and her H were in the process of putting the house up on the market and filing for DV. I've been doing some reconasance (digging for information). I've been to the courthouse and as of a week and a half ago, neither her nor her H had filed. Will be going again this week for an update. Drove by her house, no for sale sign in the yard.

I know there will be setbacks, maybe this is just one of them and I need to be patient some more. I did my first LB since dday (3 weeks ago). I apologized for getting angry, but told him that his statement hurt me. I volunteered to give him some space and left the house for the day so he could spend some time with his children. I guess I'll have to see how things are when I get home.

I'm trying to be patient, but maybe I'm expecting overnight miracles. I'd be interested to know how long others have waited for their H or W to "come out of the fog". Sometimes I think it's lifting, but then he'll do something like this. Recently he made a comment that the house alarm (voice that says if a door is opened) seemed louder. It's actually been louder since 10/8, but yesterday was the first time he noticed. . . . who knows.

I'm not sure I'm ready for Plan B yet, but slowly am getting there. I'm trying to get into the MC this week. . .I'm going to wait to talk to him before doing anything different.

Thanks for the advice -- it's greatly appreciated and helps to calm me down.

Hope

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Hope4Best:
<strong>I'm trying to be patient, but maybe I'm expecting overnight miracles. I'd be interested to know how long others have waited for their H or W to "come out of the fog".</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a withdrawal then there is an enabeling ... knowing the different is the $$$$ questions. Your MC will be able to help you out. Let MC made the demand not you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

How long WS comes out from the fog ? ... depends. Depend on how the A end (properly) !. Every contact will bring withdrawal clock to zero again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . LB from OW at the end of A will help a lot.

Just my 2¢. -rh-

MOP: I hate this! 5 months, ugh. WS keeps saying this is not going to go on forever, but it's already going on 3 months. Yeah, I was getting upset that WS was spending more quality time with OW. At least that has stopped. I have no idea if he has maintained NC. I can check right this second, but I don't want to get myself upset again. I will ask him tomorrow morning, then verify this week. So far, he's been honest whenever I've asked him whether he talked to her or not.

Unfortunately, his OW has been doing alot of stuff right. She says she wants him to be happy, but she is not happy with just a few hours a week, so I guess she is patiently waiting for his answer, too. I really need to find out how they left it. She's not gonna wait around forever.
I really was expecting a worse withdrawal, but if they are still in contact then it's not withdrawal at all.

Yeah, I asked WS if he thought I'd never leave. He was nice enough to say no.

redhat: Thank you for responding. I do have a draft of a Plan B letter. The next two weeks will be hard to carry it out cuz his family is gonna visit. But then again, maybe it's the perfect time? That's a good idea about requesting that he stick to NC and make changes if it's broken. But how long do you go if NC is continually broken?

Our M is not that great. Some days it's better than it was, but I keep thinking he is still telling her that he loves her, etc., and I really don't feel like fulfilling any of his ENs.

OW is NOT ready to take WS. She is single, but still lives at home with her parents. She is thinking about getting her own apartment, but I think she is waiting for WS' decision. I imagine she is ready to take him emotionally, though.

Hope4Best: I'm so sorry you have found yourself in the same place. Well, WS says SF makes him happy physically, but he'd rather not have it from me right now. It just confuses him. That hurt me so much that I really can't do a very good Plan A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lbc:
<strong> But how long do you go if NC is continually broken?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In addiction there are always fallbacks. How ever each fallback it starts the widrawal from zero. Now the key is what H does after broke NC ?. If he is disrepect & ignore your request then it is time to do plan B. Your M might not survive but your sanity would be protected. If your H keeps trying NC but fallback both of you have to disect the issues. Why, how and when, see any pattern that could be avoided ... call you instead of OW if he has an urge, etc. Some people have to change jobs or even change city (moved) to avoid the environment !.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really don't feel like fulfilling any of his ENs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong> You have no choice if you are in plan A, you have to fillin his ENs as much as he allows you to.

Is this A out in the daylight already ?, does his family know ?. You have to let them know about the A but I would not plan B this time. Take a good care of his family, it might be the last time you will stay as "relatives". I would give PBL after the visit.

Is WH willing to see MC ?.

-rh-

I guess I'm doing this all wrong. I didn't ask for NC so much as that's what OW requested until WS makes up his mind. Heaven forbid I ask WS for *anything*. How dare I try to make him do anything? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Hmmm...kinda makes me wonder about the M in the first place.

So I'm assuming that if a WS resists NC, then it's time for Plan B? WS said there has been NC since last week. I will verify tomorrow.

No, I haven't told anyone about the A. His mom is very concerned, but I would hate to be the one to tell her.

We did go to MC about 4x before NC. I'll try asking him about going back. WS just started IC this week.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lbc:
<strong>So I'm assuming that if a WS resists NC, then it's time for Plan B? WS said there has been NC since last week. I will verify tomorrow.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it is not always the case. But in your case he told you and if he broke his promise and even ignores you then you only have 2 choices ... doormat or plan B. However Harley said ... "Some affairs are discovered by the spouse, but even after discovery, the affair often continues unabated until it dies a natural death. If that's the way your affair ends, even if your marriage survives, it will probably not amount to much. "

You have to tell MIL to have her wisdom/advice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . She might already know ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Btw, what bagages did he bring into this M such that he needs to see a shrink ?.

-rh-

redhat: I appreciate your posts. I think I start to see my situation more clearly this way. I found out yesterday that WS asked for the 'time out' from OW. Apparently, OW assumed she would have to step back for awhile until he decided, but she assumed it would have been an ultimatum from me.

My mother-in-law keeps asking me to 'vent' to her. You may be right and she probably has her suspicions. WS is even starting to question his parents' relationship. Now, he is wondering if his dad ever had an A.

Hmmm...his baggage...well, he started going to therapy many years ago because of his drinking. He is 15 years sober. He has anger issues related to his dad. And basically he doesn't feel he thinks like most other people. He thinks alot about the big questions of life and love. What are we doing on this planet? What is true love? About seven years ago, he went to this particular therapist because he could not get over a woman who was supposed to be the love of his life. The therapist helped him close the door on that relationship (for the most part) and we ended up meeting a few months later. Not sure if that helps any.

LBC:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hope4Best: I'm so sorry you have found yourself in the same place. Well, WS says SF makes him happy physically, but he'd rather not have it from me right now. It just confuses him. That hurt me so much that I really can't do a very good Plan A.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have heard this quote before!!! We have also been intimate since then so I question the statement.

Hang in there girl! I know I keep posting here and reading others and it helps tremendously. I'll be seeing MC alone before our next couple session, you may want to consider it. I gain strength from it and hoping he can provide some insight. I'll be happy to share whatever advice he gives!

Hope

lbc,

His action get me thinking of problem in your M is not A, is not OW ... it is him and he has to find the closure. I am not excusing his A it is still his 100% blame to take. Since he has IC and you are aware about his baggage; it is very good situation, many WS lied about their past and many BS failed to notice.

Again since MIL invites you to talk to her ... take a walk in the park and let her know and get her wisdom on the situation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . One of my best emotional support actually is BIL !.

-rh-

Hope 4 Best & LBC:

I know from personal experience, this hurts:

"Hope4Best: I'm so sorry you have found yourself in the same place. Well, WS says SF makes him happy physically, but he'd rather not have it from me right now. It just confuses him. That hurt me so much that I really can't do a very good Plan A."

because my husband admitted he was avoiding physical contact with me and that it made him 'nervous' to even spend time with me looking so good (lost 30 pounds & had to buy some new clothes). But as much as it hurt and deprived me of fulfilling his physical needs, it at least gave me some encouragement that he hat to fight so hard to keep his distance from me. Don't you feel as if it's just not fair? They try to stack the deck in favor of the other woman. Just try to think of it as a really weird (sick & sad I know) compliment. He's afraid to let you close because he KNOWS he wouldn't be able to resist you at all then.

I read somewhere (maybe at this site?) that in their minds if they end up with the other person they think they have nothing to be ashamed of - it's not really adultery - just a new beginning. But if they come back home THEN the affair was something they did wrong. So I guess asking them to stay with us is like asking them to do something really scary that will cause a lot of guilt and problems for them to deal with (especially if they did the whole telling lies to others and rewriting marital history to justify the affair). My husband has admitted to me many times he feels we can't stay married now because he wouldn't know how to explain it to his family and coworkers. BUT he expected me to still see him - secretly! (grrrr)

I will keep you both in my prayers. Plan A was extremely painful for my daughters and I. You should be so proud of yourselves for being willing to suffer so for the chance to maybe save your marriage. I feel for you because it sure isn't easy. I only did it for 3 months. I love my husband and don't want to hurt him but I hope it's paying off by him having some serious withdrawal symptoms right now. In fact sometimes when he really upset us I would remember to not take the bait and just kept smiling, resisted the temptation to LB and instead deposited even more in his love bank, knowing it would hurt him even more when I withdrew into Plan B. OK, it was sort of like revenge but also served the purpose of cooling off my anger. You know the if you act nice to somebody you will start feeling more loving towards them thing?

My daughters and I have each other and wonderful friends to help us through these first weeks of Plan B. But I don't think he has anyone because she doesn't know he spent a lot of time with me during Plan A (not jsut the kids) and I doubt she knows now that his daughters are refusing visitation because he went back to her. Also, in order for her to take him back he had to prove to her that he could limit his visitation with his daughters (he's admitted this to me when I asked why he suddenly went from seeing us 5 days a week for 3 stright weeks to just 3 days a week for next few weeks) So he can't exactly act sad or seek comfort from her about missing us right now because as far as she knows him going back to her hasn't changed his contact with us. So WHAT would he be having withdrawal from? Thank God she is such a suspicious type because she's sure to pick up on even the slightest poutiness or moodiness from his withdrawal. (YAY) SO: just keep doing Plan A, filling his love bank, avoiding love busters, because it will make Plan B so much more effective when you get to that part. Listen to Redhat and the others here who have so much more knowledge and experience than us. You're not alone in this, there is so much love, support and understanding at this site which really helps.

redhat: Hmmm...your idea that the problem may be WS is very interesting. He never seems to be satisfied -- in his relationships, in his work, etc. He is always striving, always moving, always wants more, always wants better. Sometimes I feel I cannot satisfy him.

His relationship pattern is to leave after a few years. I didn't realize that I am his longest relationship in terms of living together until he told me last night. He did have another 5 year relationship, but they were always off and on. When I first found out about OW, I told him that if he chose her, he would eventually leave her, too. I have also told him that if he wants to be in a long-term relationship, he needs to make a stand. And if it's not with me, then he better do it with her or else he will continue to break hearts.

Because WS is a recovering alcoholic, MC thinks he might be a love addict. I have mentioned the addiction model (from MB) and he really gets upset. He feels he has done alot of work on himself since becoming sober and if he is still an addict of some kind, it means he is defective in his mind. I figured it was an LB to stay on the subject, so I have tried to remove it from my mind for now. He has acknowledged that he may have a personality defect of some kind, though. I have wondered if he has narcissistic tendencies and my IC seems to agree.

MIL is coming for a visit next week. Maybe I can just say that WS has a 'friend' that is making him question our M. I'm sure she will understand.

Hope4Best: We are married to the same man! Yeah, after saying that SF with me confuses him, he still asks for it. I figure it is part of fulfilling ENs and he can't deny he is enjoying it. He even thanked me for reminding him about how much fun we used to have. I'm only going to IC and haven't brought up the subject of MC again. I did go alone the last time and it was very insightful! Yes, please let me know what MC says.

icedancer: I would say welcome, but I don't think anyone wants to be part of our group. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The only good thing about this A is that I have lost weight, too. I weigh less than before I got pregnant! And I'm buying new clothes, as well. Shopping is about the only thing that makes me happy nowadays. Well, besides my baby girl.

I suppose the whole purpose of Plan A *is* to confuse WS, so I guess we're doing it right. My WS is very much afraid of coming back to the M and having to live with the knowledge of what he has done. He has tried very hard to justify his A, so your comments make sense.

Is the A exposed? I haven't exposed it yet, so to family and friends it will just look like we decided to work on our M.

I am only starting to learn to not take the bait and just listen to his tirades. It took me 3 months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh my, OW is just LB'ing left and right, huh? Better for you. I can't believe she is limiting contact with your children. I'm guessing she doesn't have any kids.

Thank you for your encouragement. I wouldn't be able to do this without the great people here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />