back from the holidays. It was a nice visit with her family. I don't think it could have gone any better. There was only one instance when she felt down for a while. In some ways things seem to be better between us. The time we have spent together seems to be more enjoyable. I had hoped that this time away from computers and instant messeges would help NC happen. Unfortunately yesterdays she sent him a message. It's more disappointing than anything else, though currently it is fueling some negative thoughts that I'm working past.

well I really don't want this post to turn into a book so I'll leave it at that

am I wrong to think this way? In the past couple of weeks I've been setting some goals for myself. This has been part of Plan A, making visible changes in myself that are attractive to WW. Something that my IC said on our first meeting has been sticking in my head. IC said, that we would be making sure that I knew I would be ok regardless of how this ordeal turned out. Since then I have been feeling that I am making these changes not just to be attractive to her but for myself, to prove to myself that I can be just fine on my own. I keep on pondering how I would do if it came to implementing plan B, though I do not want to go there. I also wonder how I would live life as a single man again. A lot of the fog talk I get from my wife just makes me think that there is no happy ending for us and things coming to an end just doesn't feel like a bad thing right now.

I am so ****ing through with this marriage

Hi JGNC.

I'm glad to hear that your holiday was great. My holiday was nice as well. Like you i too feel that it copuldn't have ben better. I am grateful.

Sorry to hear about disappointment with Ws having contact again. but i'd like to share something with you. I know you've been trying hard on your m.

You've posted since day one how you are trying to make changes and do all that you can. Sometimes you've slipped up as we all have but you always staed how you wantd to change yourself to save your M. When WS is doing as she pleases and not seeming to reciprocate it seems likeyour efforts are useless.

But I encourage you to hang in there. I also want to mention to you about detaching. You talked about how your IC was saying to think about things as if you want to do what you do regardless of how this ordeal turn out (or close to this). You mentioned thinking about what it would be beng signle again.

While I can understand that thinking in these terms may seem scary because you have to face the fear of doing exactly what you don't want to do.

You don't want to let your WS go. You hope that she will see your improvements and make the better choice of ebing with you. But in actuality the choice is up to her.

What may help you is to detach from the fear of her making the choice to leave you. Or the fear of letting go of making all of your decisions iwth sving the M as your focal point. I'll post more soon.

Cont'd from earlier.
Sorry so long. Forgive my typos.

"Something that my IC said on our first meeting has been sticking in my head. IC said, that we would be making sure that I knew I would be ok regardless of how this ordeal turned out."

I believe that your IC is right. Allow me to digress for a moment. At the point of finding out about an A, many times the BS takes on the campaign of saving the M. Going through all of the efforts, changing behavors, doing this and that, to save it and making decisions with saving the M as being the total focus. So many times what happens is that the BS gets caught up in what they are doing to make it right and become oblivious to everything else that is going on in their lives. They also forget that WS plays a part in this also. Meaning that of course the BS makes the changes they feel they need to but that doesn't mean that WS isn't isn't accountable for anything also.

But why does this happen?
For me it did because I didn't want to lose my WS so I made hasty decisions and did things out of desperation and fear. Fear that I might lose my WS. I totally focused on what I needed to do and it sometimes paralyzed (figuratiely of course) me.

Well detaching enables you to think clearly as you face the obstacles of trying to save your M, make a good clean Plan A (not perfect but as best you can), accepting that you may have to go to Plan B.

Back to your IC. I believe he/she is right that the BS wants to get to a point of accepting that the stuation is what it is and even if WS leaves he/she will survive. The A doesn't become a total focus in life.
Well here are a few sources, I've found helpful.

Links:
Michelle Weiner Davis divorce busting 180 degree list
www.marriabuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic:f=29;t=003910

Helpful post:
www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultmateebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=31:=012269

Michelle Weiner Davis

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000016

Helpful post

From TOOMuchcoffeeman and coach 3530
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=26&t=000016

Or whatever may be helpul.
I was bumping around in here the other day and discovered that you can do a search for certian issues. If you hadn't yet and think it may be helpful you just click on search above and type in what you are looking for. I found some interesting post that provided other info to help me in other areas of my M also.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Have a good one.

Freetobe,

I agree with my IC I just never thought I would get there. While I still don't like the idea of separating it no longer has that dread behind it. I suppose I have finally accepted that the A is not my fault (another thing the IC is driving in). The changes and goals that I am setting are showing me that the quality of my life depends on my choices not hers.

At the moment when I wrote about wanting out I was in the middle of a huge angry outburst, we had a really bad argument in the car on our way home from a restaurant that started with me trying to understand her ENs and culminated in our yelling out just how much we resented each other. Some good did eventually come out of that arguement but not before I wrote those awful words.

Eventually we got to talking about the A and OM. I was able to explain to her that I cannot tolerate contact w/ OM and explain how hurtful and disrespectful it was for her to desire to continue to contact him. I also told her that I was having a very difficult time trusting her and she seems to want help rebuild that trust. We talked about accountability and though she resents the idea of my having open access to her e.mail and chat logs she said that I could have it if it was what I needed. I have not followed up on it yet. I am in the process of writing a couple of letters to her regarding NC, EN's and LB's. I could never get her to fill out an EN's questionaire so instead I will write to her and ask her to think about her own ENs.

180 has become my motto for 2004.

"We talked about accountability and though she resents the idea of my having open access to her e.mail and chat logs she said that I could have it if it was what I needed."

I found dealing with my WS he hated this. He submitted the info to me though. Sometimes he would try to play a little game with me and tell me he had to have my info too. I told him great that is how it is suppose to be.

I want to make a little suggestion, don't let it get away from you getting her email info. Go ahead and get it in a kind, but non conceited fashion. I have found that WS will tell you one thing at one time then switch up. Your attitude will be important. You slipped up, but hey you are human. So try to be calm and unthreatening.

Goodness, I'm glad to hear that you got some things accross about no contact. About trying still to meet her ENs. Remember that you can't control her though. Remind yourself she still has to make the choice to comply.

It seems that you've wanted to take these steps done but you were somewhat timid or maybe waiting for the right time. I think that so much of this (MB steps) is like confrontaional and it is hard to make expectations and say what you want. It is for me.

JGNC you've been doing great. Keep it up. Ask for what you want but in tempered calmness. I think you are going far. Even if you should have to go to Plan B, you will have learned a lot and tried a whole heck of a lot to change.

Wish you the best <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

thanks for your response and ecouragement. I hope you had a good new years eve. We are doing pretty well.

The letter, still in progress basically comes clean as to what I know about contact and talks about dishonesty between us. In it I ask her to make the choice to end R w/ OM and to allow me to verify that she is following through with the choice not as punishment but to help rebuild trust between us.

I may post the text of the letter later.

So how have you been faring recently?

JGNC

(Quotes from JGNC in italics)
"I hope you had a good new years eve. "

Thank You. We had a good News Year Eve and I'm looking forward to a good year for myself
and my family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Wishing you the same.

"In it I ask her to make the choice to end R w/ OM and to allow me to verify that she is following through with the choice not as punishment "

A few times before you seemed to touch the issue of motive ligthly. As far as the imporatance of WS understanding your intent and purpose in doing what you were doing. I think the letter is a good idea. If you explain to her what you would like to happen and why she may be more agreeable.

I wanted to write one several times but didn't. I feared becoming too wordy. WS isn't crazy about discussing MB methods. So I wanted to be brief as possible.

This brings me to a question. Many of the female posters say that WH don't like reading the material. How have you felt about it coming from
a male viewpoint? It seems that you've read a lot.

"So how have you been faring recently?"

We are doing pretty good. Things have really been nice between us. Good conversation, good showing of affection, compromising in some things, and learning to just be around each other without the A being at the forefront of our conversation.

He has ended the A. Didn't send a NC letter (for reasons we both felt were important). I agree with sending it and think it is important.
He has maintained no contact, (verified), accounts for his time and financial affairs, and we are doing other things also. I've learned that some of my expectations haven't been met just the way I expected after reading MB info. So my expectations are somewhat lower as far as how I would like for things to happen.

What makes it difficult is that I can't just give him MB concepts and expect him to study them as I have. This means that I have a bunch of info that he does not. So my approach, which is very diffcult at times is live them before him.

I let him know what concerns me and ask him to agree to work with me (adhere to policy of Joint agreement) without just coming out and saying
what it is. I tell him how I feel honestly and ask him to do the same. Sometimes I just do it and believe that he will come along.

Sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes I do a good job at it and sometimes I mess up. But I've so had it with all of the involvement that the A had in my life. I'm not as preoccupied with it anymore or the insistence that he do exactly what I want him to. I've decided that I want this to work but I can't do it alone. So it is always my desire that he
will come along. But if not then that is that.

Freetobe,

I understand about working one sided. My wife prefers to move along with what feels natural. she finds any book or concept that is presented to her forced or unatural or worse, punishment. She either rejects it or submits half-heartedly. Sometimes I think her need for things to move along "naturally" is an excuse to not put out any effort or to excuse her actions. I keep on thinking, what if we just let things move "naturally" and there is another A?

The letter has been a good exercise, my problem is that when we talk I have to many things I want to say and it gets wordy and jumbled so that it is easy for someone else to pick it appart. By writing it down it forced me to organize my thoughts. The other added benefit was that I could edit the letter and remove LBs from it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This brings me to a question. Many of the female posters say that WH don't like reading the material. How have you felt about it coming from a male viewpoint? It seems that you've read a lot.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I first found MB I was just a day or so past d-day. What I found gave me a lot of hope, especially since I saw many of my wife's fears about M addressed here. As a general rule I tend to dislike self-help books so I was not enthusiastic about reading HNHN or SAA. I did not really enjoy the books nor did I like how the material was presented. However, I have found the concepts very useful. The website is a blessing. I suppose being a BS makes one more ready to accept new concepts and methods than before. Part of my wife's rejection of the materials seems to stems from being a WW. She sees it as a reminder of what she has done.

I also wish I could get her to read MB concepts but she won't. It certainly would make things better if we were both enthusiastically pursuing recovery. But that is not the case. In fact she wants to stop our MC sessions soon. She feels it takes us backwards (again punishment). What I have been doing is learning and slowly applying them.

Despite this things are going well. She is putting quite a bit of effort into depositing love units, almost as if she were trying to prove to me she loves me. I have been trying to do the same. The only thing that is getting in the way is that nagging feeling that there is some dishonesty going on. For that reason I need to get that letter to her soon.

It sounds like things are going well over all for you, I hope this is truly the case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've learned that some of my expectations haven't been met just the way I expected after reading MB info. So my expectations are somewhat lower as far as how I would like for things to happen.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That seems to be the way w/ all self-help/dieting/exercise/etc/etc books. If you follow the easy steps things will turn around in no time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> If the methods are sound which I believe they are then change will occur if one is willing to put in the effort. Lurking around the message boards and reading everyones stories reset my expectations and also helped me to feel better when I could feel myself slipping.

"If the methods are sound which I believe they are then change will occur if one is willing to put in the effort."

Yes, I agree when it comes down to self help. I think one has to make a lot of expectation lowering or maybe I should say readjusting. Then if the methods are sound, with a lot of hard work and practice and effort, one can be successful. I must admit MB is the most challenging self help practice I've ever participated in. I believe in the mthods though.

I see that you are branching out past "Plan A and Plan B" and getting into other issues/ topics. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I hope you'll continue to post to others also. I think you'll be a great helper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi jgnc,

Just wanted to pop in and add another word of encouragement. You are doing well...pat yourself on the back!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The changes and goals that I am setting are showing me that the quality of my life depends on my choices not hers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The only thing that is getting in the way is that nagging feeling that there is some dishonesty going on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So how are you doing at getting this across to her in person, without LBing at all? Can you discuss this issue with her calmly? If so, what do you say? Do all your statements begin with "I feel"? And are they really about feeling, NOT thinking? (as in..."I feel you are still having an affair")

This is crucial -- effective communication allows you to set your boundaries with love and affection instead of repressed anger. (You may not think she notices your repressed anger and/or may not think you feel it, but it truly does screw up conversations between a WS and BS and impedes marital recovery.) And I believe having this honest, straightforward communication gives the WS the clear path home if you do end up in Plan B.

Does that make sense to you?

freetobe,

As usual, you are offering great support and advice!

I challenge one statement though and would like to hear your feelings on it...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've learned that some of my expectations haven't been met just the way I expected after reading MB info. So my expectations are somewhat lower as far as how I would like for things to happen </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps an alternative would be to understand your expectations and readjust them in the short term only, just like you've done throughout Plan A. But then let time and patience and lots of love deposits on your part work their magic...perhaps your expectations are not unreasonable at all, just your path to them in the past...in other words, he'll volunteer to meet them directly as a result of HIS choice to "comply" with your expectations, rather than any coercion on your part (which never managed to convince him that they were worth meeting&#8230;right?).

This represents the true partnership I believe results from consistent, fun and wholehearted application of the MB principles.

As per usual, I'd encourage you to read some of the "old-timer" threads right now...people that only apply part of the concepts OR never heal themselves (ie. BS) OR get lazy/stressed, etc....their M recovery is shaky as a result...

I've been thinking that perhaps we should all consider ourselves to be M-damaged and prone to slippage in the future (just like an alcoholic). Therefore as a precautionary measure, no matter how we feel our M (or subsequent relationship) is doing in future, we should remember to check in here occasionally to get a refresher course in what NOT to do in a M!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

for both of you:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My wife prefers to move along with what feels natural. she finds any book or concept that is presented to her forced or unatural or worse, punishment. She either rejects it or submits half-heartedly. Sometimes I think her need for things to move along "naturally" is an excuse to not put out any effort or to excuse her actions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H was the same...not interested in reading, rejected the notion that any of these case studies, conclusions, observations, etc. applied to him (even though they almost ALL did! Down to the words as per usual with a WS).

Do you think this is pretty consistent with a WS? Or that they were like this prior to the A as well? (Mine was for sure.)

Perhaps a person who engages in an A -- which is plainly a dreadfully selfish act -- is naturally less-inclined to introspection in the first place? Or as a result of the conditions contributing to the A? (ie. MLC)

What do you think???

Whatever the case: here again, I would counsel patience. Eventually, your S (like mine&#8230;he now ASKS me for stuff!) may well become interested, especially if you SHOW them the way (the truth), with humour and gentle persuasion. If not, well...you'll still be much better off as people...right? You have learned so much that will benefit YOU no matter what happens with your spouse.

For example: to have the depth of patience and love required to give love and understanding even though someone else is not doing what YOU want...what a gift that is. To accept that you are in a relationship because you choose to be, and if it ever becomes necessary, you'll leave calmly and rationally after having given the relationship every opportunity...what a skill that is.

You will be a self-actualized individual! Considered VERY healthy by counsellors...not dependent on another but involved in a supportive, non-judgmental, intimate relationship by conscious choice.

But more importantly, what do you think???

Happy new year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> All the best to you and your loved ones in 2004&#8230;awed

<small>[ January 04, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

(Post from awed18 in italics)

"Do you think this is pretty consistent with a WS? Or that they were like this prior to the A as well? (Mine was for sure.) "

Speaking for myself, I recall that before this happened it was difficult to talk to WS about issues such as R. To me he felt that you should just allow things to happen (flow natuarally). He felt that you should do what you felt like doing as it pertained to R.

For myself, I learned to appreciate self helf material. I have enjoyed studying certain concepts and applying using them. So I learned early on that it was ok to do things that didn't just come to mind or that seemed unnatural. He always felt that that made me seem too technical, idealistic and unnatural. As a result we butt heads about many issues.

"Perhaps a person who engages in an A -- which is plainly a dreadfully selfish act -- is naturally less-inclined to introspection in the first place? Or as a result of the conditions contributing to the A? (ie. MLC)"

I intend to answer your question and not confuse you and myself in the process. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

BTW very interesting ?
Here goes. I think that a WS in an A can be introspective. WS can be by learned behavior or by an innate ability.

For myself, I learned from reading materials to reflect upon my feelings and attitudes. This is something that I feel I was definitely not born with.

However with all I had learned I still chose to participate in an A the first go around. So I was fully aware of what I was doing and what was happening on the inside when I chose to behave this way. I had become heartless and uncaring.

As in the case of my WS however I think that he may have become this way as a condition of the A that he was in. OW presented to him something that he really hadn't had before.

She was something he wanted in a R. Made him feel special. Something he wanted from me but didn't know how to get it or how to verbalize what he felt. I hope this answers the ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So how are you doing at getting this across to her in person, without LBing at all?
Can you discuss this issue with her calmly? If so, what do you say? Do all your statements begin with "I feel"? And are they really about feeling, NOT thinking? (as in..."I feel you are still having an affair")
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It starts w/ a letter. I've put a lot of effort in avoiding DJs and making sure it was clear as possible. The hardest part of the conversation that will ensue will be dealing with her LBs (AO and DJs). Once I became aware of my LBs I've managed to keep a good handle on them. Basically figuring out how to keep from being thrown in to the defensive w/out becoming offensive.

I know all about resentment. There's not much that I can do about the resentment I already feel. The purpose of this letter is to help her take the steps necessary for that resentment to die away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My H was the same...not interested in reading, rejected the notion that any of these case studies, conclusions, observations, etc. applied to him (even though they almost ALL did! Down to the words as per usual with a WS).

Do you think this is pretty consistent with a WS? Or that they were like this prior to the A as well? (Mine was for sure.)

Perhaps a person who engages in an A -- which is plainly a dreadfully selfish act -- is naturally less-inclined to introspection in the first place? Or as a result of the conditions contributing to the A? (ie. MLC)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is a fairly human response. When we are told we have a problem it is in our nature to reject it. My W hates to be categorized, same as your H. I suppose I do to. No one wants to be labeled. My W has done a great deal of introspection in the past. Learning to live w/ depression demanded it. In fact one of the problems that exisited before the A was that she felt like she was the only one that made an effort to change. I had issues as well that I should have addressed sooner than I have. Even as the EA went on she recongized what was going. She looked for help online and as a result on and tried to provide me w/ the information to help me give her what she needed to find her way back. I did not understand the severity because she never outright confessed nor did I know what she was trying to do. I think that she did not see the results then contributed to the EA and perhaps made her less willing to want to look into herself yet again. Having to go into counseling this time is now another sign to her that she is damaged in some way.

Have to go now, thank you both for the replies and for getting my brain thinking on these things again.

J.

(Post by JGNC in italics)

"It starts w/ a letter."

JGNC
How's the letter coming?

I've decided I have to tweak my plan in Plan A also. Maybe I can shar eit some time.

awed18, I wanted to answer your challenge about lowering my expectations. I thought your comment on that was good. However I guess I hadn't defined exactly how I was lowering my expectations.

Your comment gave me something to think about. As it pertains to WS I have lowered the expectation of how (the method I use) to get MB concepts accross to him. Also the amount of time and progression I would like to see it in.

It would be so ideal if I could just go to WS, tell him what I've learned and like the kiss of Prince Charming on the princess he would magically appear as, well, my "Price Charming".

He is a wonderful man, but he (as well as myself) has a lot of changing to do. How I explain this to him, and what I expect of him is something that has to be handled very carefully and very slowly.

So I guess I am lowering my expectations as far as the methods (how I work with him in recovery) I will have to use to get to my desired result. I am also lowering how fast and progressive I would like for recovery to be.

Hope that made sense. Thank you JGNC and awed18 for great post and sharing.

letter is done I suppose I keep on staring at it but I guess I just have to recongnize that I can't make it perfect.

Regarding expectations. I think that the only way expectations have been lowered in in regards to how long it will take. MB appears as this wonderful elegant solution. But the truth is there is no silver bullet. MB will only help get us there w/ a lot of hard work.

JGNC

(Quotes by JGNC in italics)
"letter is done I suppose I keep on staring at it but I guess I just have to recongnize that I can't make it perfect."

Yes, you are right. Nothing is perfect. But is there something that concerns you in the letter? If you'd like to place it on the post for me to read and give my opinion I would be more than happy to. Also some posters place their lettters and conversation issues on site to get a different perspectives from different posters.

If not, I wish you the best in presenting it to WS.

well the letter was delivered and she is probably reading it right now. I came to realize that what was delaying me was a fear of her response (and possible LBs). I spent a long time not speaking my mind for that reason and I can't do that anymore.

Things did not go well yesterday although I think good progress was made. WW was/is in a lot of pain. I am feeling pretty numb. I don't think I understood how recovery would be a rollercoaster until yesterday. At one point I really thought that she was going to walk way. Despite all of this some possitive things came out.

She does understand why NC is necessary. She understands that she cannot keep R w/ OM just a friendship. Ending the A is very painful, until yesterday I did not fully understand the depth of the feelings she has for him. Despite that she knows that she would not be happy with him. OM has been meeting some needs and I others. When we were done talking she sent him a message telling him it was over.

Unfortunately accountability is another issue. She refuses to live under surveillance. Who does? She understands why I need to check on her but I think she finds it humiliating. I don't want to check on her but I have to. My hope is that after all we talked about yesterday that if she ever contacts him or if he finds a way to contact her she will tell me before I find out.

I noticed that we are dealing with 3 different issues, First how to handle the A and rebuilding trust after the A. Second identifying and meeting each others ENs. Third identifying and acting on what we each need as individuals to be fulfilled. We have a long road ahead.

The one other thing is that we have decided to stop MC. She did not think it was helping us and that the progress we were making came as a result of spending time w/ each other and some long conversations. I did not want to stop MC but we came to a compromise. We are stopping MC with the following conditions, we must develop a recovery plan, we must track our progress, if I feel we are not making progress we will resume MC, I cannot drag my feet to make our individual attempt fail in order to get back into MC.

I will still participate in IC and infact IC and MB will become even bigger tools as we start our work. I am expecting it to be very hard.