JGNC

Yes it will be hard. But it really sounds like you both are getting off to a great start.

Notice I said you both. Because you've been here trying to sort things out all along. But it is great that she seems to be coming along.

"Things did not go well yesterday although I think good progress was made."

How do you feel it didn't go well? You are compromising with each other and holding each other to be accountable for progress in your marriage.

In the words of Spongebob, "OOOO it all sounds so good".

Did you manage not to LB while discussing with WW? Even if it didn't come off the way you had hoped, you're getting her to agree with you in some things and she is recommitting to the marriage.

Before I go, I'm happy for you. The road is long but you've made a mile wouldn't you say?

Freetobe,

Yes it was an imporant day. It was also a terribly painful day for the both of us. Getting a commitment to NC is a huge plus and being able to jointly agree to an MC plan is probably even bigger. But it was an emotionally draining day.
At one point I almost thought we were through.

I did not LB but she did. Contemplating the loss of OM was/is very painful to her and she took it out on me. The yelling, crying and insults. I was able to keep an emotional distance through most of it, which I why I did not yell back but it still hurt a lot.

But you are right, some very good things came out of this and I should be thankful for them. The next few weeks will be hard ones. If she holds to NC then she'll be going through withdrawal alone.

As van helsing said, "we must pass through the bitter waters to reach the sweet"

So now the question in my mind is, what does a recovery plan look like?

JGNC
(Quotes by JGNC in italics)
I feel for you about W treating with major love busting. I know that listening to it was hard on you.


"I was able to keep an emotional distance through most of it, which I why I did not yell back but it still hurt a lot."

Here's a pat <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> on the back that you didn't return the yelling. Holding on while your loved one is ranting is a very diffcult thing to do.

But I'd like to ask, without you getting into what was said specifically, how come you felt hurt? Do you feel that she was right in her insult? Or was it a comment that was simply an untrue disresepctful judgement?

As it pertains to Recovery I thought it might be helpful to pass the URL along to you.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Also there is a page on MB site about making a Plan to resolve conflict and restore love to the marriage.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html

Kudos to you. Just a word of comfort, trouble and problems don't last always. It is a cycle. A little good, A litle bad, A little good, A little bad, then sometimes a lot of bad, bad and a little good good-Never is quite in the order you want it in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Oh I like the quote from your post too-

As van helsing said, "we must pass through the bitter waters to reach the sweet"

SO true. SO true. Hey, we must remember to talk of other things too. What else have you been up to? Have you been snow biking again?

Well for me I fell through on the simulated rock climbing. I settled for something much easier. I've started a running program to increase my running speed. I know very easy way out, but it is still exercise.

Have a good one.

Well...so much for my little theory that perhaps less introspective people are the ones to have affairs! Glad to hear your views though...both of you...

jgnc: RECOVERY is tough...really really tough. Take deep breaths, remember all the lessons you've learned. Print out and post your motivational sayings...freetobe has heard all this before from me!

it's tough...please hang in there.

Specifically to your recent postings: One of the best pieces of advice I received was to share and discuss the OP sympathetically with WS. Perhaps you cannot fathom doing this?

First off, let me tell you that the anger I felt towards OW was immense...I'd thought she was a close "friend" of mine. Of course, it turns out she had lied and manipulated both of us for...who knows how long? My H and I wonder now -- how many years had she worked towards this A with him? Who knows what mind games she played with me too, ie. sympathizing about what a jerk he was, etc. (yeah, I know...bad ME for talking about my H with ANYONE else but him...boy we all learn new wonderful relationship skills here at MB, don't we! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Anyhow, I'm telling you this because I feel that if I could discuss OP calmly with my H, anyone can...but only if you choose to do so. It will take a huge amount of restraint on your part. What I did was to separate out HIM from HER. I put HER out of my mind completely. I thought about what she meant to HIM. How she was there for him when I was not (in his mind), how he felt scared and lost without me and turned to someone else (regardless that this was the wrong thing to do), and once I was calmly in the mode of being his friend...then we talked.

By doing this, he learned that I meant what I said. I was THERE for him, I was not going to LB even though the topic was painful, I understood his fears of surveillance forever...in short, I HEARD his feelings...his feelings were validated.

This allowed us to discuss options...calmly and rationally (POJA). For example, he quickly turned around from saying he would need to break it off with her in person (because that's the kind of guy he is...kind to women) to writing a N/C letter. He shared everything with me (eventually) although this took several weeks to really reach 100% -- by this I mean all details of A (extremely painful though they were) as well as volunteering to do verification stuff (like not erasing phone log, checking in regularly, never being alone or having unaccounted-for time).

The verification in particular had a few rough spots...I let him know how dreadfully painful it was for ME when he slipped up...but I always spoke of ME, not HIM or HER (although gradually as he realized how manipulative she had been, I could be more honest about how I truly felt about her).

I never blamed him, accused him, etc. I always found a way (take your time, think it through, write it down, consult here first) to remove LBs and ensure I was talking about my feelings.

Because I followed this approach faultlessly, it did not take long before he could tell when something was wrong (ie. a trigger), and he would ask me about it. So I no longer had to even raise the issue with him. In other words, because he was asking, he was interested. Therefore, he was not defensive, he was curious and concerned instead.

All of this stemmed from the excellent advice to "be his friend" through withdrawal. It is NOT an easy path. But if you can do it, talk about her feelings, SHARE her pain and loss and grieving...you will find the paybacks for you are there. You will have re-established your intimate bond.

Another way of thinking of it is that you break apart their secret world, and make a new bond with your S.

I'd be happy to talk about it further...let me know if you think I can help...awed

P.S. Here are some comments about something you said earlier:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... explain how hurtful and disrespectful it was for her to desire to continue to contact him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's fine to explain hurtful ...talk about YOU...it is NOT okay to explain disrespectful ...that's a DJ! And if you are DJ'ing her, you are directly sabotaging your marriage and all your positive efforts to save it!!!

MB principles really are that simple. You must stop those LBs. Period. Not easy to do.

If/when you screw up, apologize. For example, you could explain how when you are hurting, it is hard not to revert to your previous bad behaviour. Explain that you are ashamed of yourself for making judgments about her behaviour. That what she does is always her choice. Only then will you be able to convey your boundaries to her because she will open to actually hearing them.

Give respect if you expect to receive it.

This must be the hardest thing a BS has to do: give respect to someone who has hurt them immensely. But I am more and more convinced (read some of those old-timer posts) that this is the ONLY way to truly recover a marriage.

And I know from personal experience that it is also a path of personal spiritual growth. To truly absorb the principles of unconditional love frees you from so much pain and anguish, anger and resentment.

It's simple...but not easy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The hardest part of the conversation that will ensue will be dealing with her LBs (AO and DJs)....Basically figuring out how to keep from being thrown in to the defensive w/out becoming offensive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to find a way to calmly tell her how you feel. She is not throwing you on the defensive, you are CHOOSING to go on the defensive. Accept all responsibility for your reactions and then you will be able to control them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know all about resentment. There's not much that I can do about the resentment I already feel. The purpose of this letter is to help her take the steps necessary for that resentment to die away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's actually a lot you can do about your resentment. In fact, I'd argue that you are the ONLY one who can do anything about it.

I will be absolutely blunt with you: if she continues seeing OM and eventually marries him, will you feel resentment? Do you want this woman to control your emotions forever? (I suspect not!)

So any and all work YOU do towards taking responsibility for your reactions will:
a) help your marriage
b) help your personal recovery
c) help you cope with further betrayal
d) help you heal if the M does not recover

It is a win-win situation, no matter what happens between the two of you...but learning to do so is not easy.

I am being blunt because I have become convinced over the past few months that unless a BS learns this basic lesson, their M is likely to fail...if not now, then later. How tragic...

You must learn that you are responsible for yourself ONLY, and she is responsible for herself ONLY. Whether or not she learns this, you need to.

What freetobe understood very quickly (from my perspective <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) is that you cannot force the learning process on your S. Your S will either come along with you or not, as they choose. (Ironically, if you can accept this principle, there's a much better chance your S will come along with you!)

I hope you do not find these suggestions too harsh...I am making them only because I want to share some extremely hard-earned perspective from a BS who is undergoing a successful recovery, and is so tired of reading of unsuccessful attempts that are littered with LBs!

One more thing...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She understands why I need to check on her but I think she finds it humiliating.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well&#8230;it is humiliating isn't it? (I also found snooping around and catching my H in the "act" was humiliating. As was entering a crowded room not knowing who knows and who doesn't, which comment has hidden meanings and which doesn't...in fact, almost everything associated with an A is humiliating... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Anyhow, my point is validate her feelings on this one...it IS humiliating. Just simply validate. And inject humour whenever, wherever you can. ie. "hey darlin, it's 007 checking in today..." Or as freetobe suggested, make your life an open book too...make it part of your new marriage...sharing everything with each other, to learn TOGETHER to trust each other again...with everything.

You can find a way to turn pretty much every negative into a positive, a way to be closer, something to bring you together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Don't expect much from her in the short term though...keep your goals long term and you'll be on the right track.

In case I am seriously depressing you, just let me tell you again how fantastically my H has come around. If I am upset now because of some of the long-standing M issues we had (ie. prior to A) are rearing their ugly heads again, he goes off and thinks on his own without me asking him to do so. Then he comes back with a solution of what HE can do differently to make amends to me, to resolve the problems, to make our marriage different.

This is the same guy who refused to go to MC, refused to do R work, etc. etc. The turnaround is nothing short of miraculous! Because he wants this new M to work out.

I don't mean to guarantee that the same will come true with your S...I have no idea the depth of problems in your M prior to the A. However, ours were extremely serious. And the MB concepts have done exactly as promised.

But first I had to give and give and give and give and give...

awed18 are you still out here?

Hi freetobe,

Yes...in fact, I wrote to you on your thread at almost the same time you posted here!

And for poor, poor, beleaguered jgnc, who has to scroll down through my long long long posts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...here's a quote I really like from one of my favorite posters (star*fish) here at MB...(edited to add emphasis in bold)...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...during crisis it is often hard to know what will or will not cause hard feelings. I have no doubt that your wife is feeling the strain and isolation imposed by her choices. That's a good thing....and encouraging. Try to remember this chere....it didn't take weeks to get where you are, and it won't take weeks to get out of it. This is a process....the same kind of slow....but steady process that hurt your marriage, and can now help it. It's often like watching grass grow it seems to improve so slowly...but don't look at the mountain you are trying to climb. Try and look at each step that you need to take. It's easy easy to feel overwhelmed and fall into despair....but when that happens...remember how many of us have renewed and rebuilt our marriages in the face of insurmountable odds....and find strength in that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ January 08, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

There is a lot to respond to so I won't even try. I will just thank the both of you for your responses.

Awed, I am taking everything you said to heart, though it has taken me several readings to process it all.

The grief and pain that she feels right now is manifesting some of, if not the worst symptoms of depression that I have ever seen in her. What I see tells me that she needs anti-D's again. She refuses to go back to an IC and after last night I am scared. I can see us going back to the days when I wondered if that day was the day she would do something to hurt herself.

I need so much to believe that with time, friendship and kindness this will all come to pass. If not for that I probably would be leaving.

Freetobe, you asked why it hurt. I don't know if I can answer that without getting into specifics. Yes it is mostly DJs, delivered with rage.

I wish I could talk about other things, right now there is no room in my head for anything.

JGNC,

"What I see tells me that she needs anti-D's again. She refuses to go back to an IC and after last night I am scared."

I do believe in prayer. I will say a special prayer for you and you wife. Hope everything works out. Please give me an update when you can.

I can't think about this too long or I will spend the rest of the day unable to do anything else.

Since NC W has been very depressed and harboring a lot of anger towards me. Most of the time she has been depressed and then she will release her anger on me. I half expected this but not its intensity. All week I felt like an emotional punching bag. It is only when she sees how much pain I am in that she stops. Then we talk and things seem better until the next day.

Since yesteday evening things have been better. She is still sad. However, since our last talk we have been more supportive of each other.

Today, life is better(but it can change at any moment). We have lots keeping us busy and if we can get through it maybe she'll begin to see that she does not need OM as much as she thinks she does.

If I have time I may post some recolections of our conversations as I can use any insights.

J.

HI JGNC

How are you? I hope things have improved since your last post. It sounded as if you were having a hard time. I've been out for a while due to illness. I'm still not doing so well but I wanted to say hello. Hope to hear from you soon.

I'm sorry to hear you have been ill. I hope you get over it soon.

I haven't written any updates because the last 2 weeks have been such a roller coaster. Yesterday and today things have been good but I never know what I will find when I get home.

I'll try and write now.

Work has continued to be an issue and after the explosive events following the letter I wrote it became difficult to focus at work again. During this time if there was any silver lining it was that after she finished venting all of her anger we could talk, I listened to her talk about the OM. I suppose that I was so relieved to be able to talk to her that talking about OM was generally not very painful. I have been getting some strange interaction w/ my boss at work. I talked to my W about it and she was very supportive, for the first time she put her anger aside. However it also stopped most conversation about OM and our M. Her support lasted long enough for me to become cautiously optimistic. The second work issues were getting back on track it all started again.

She continues to suffer from depression, so we are back on the rollercoaster we were on before and during our first year of marriage except this time she is refusing to seek treatment. Her belief is that the only time she was not depressed was during the EA. Because of the letter I wrote her 2 weeks ago she began NC, now she blames me for her pain and depression. I understand why she feels that way but it is getting hard to take. I can talk about the A, OM and M without too many problems. It is another thing to take her rage and temper indefinately and to live fearing that the next thing I bring up may trigger a violent outburst of anger or depression.

That's where things are at right now. Today she is in a good mood, likely because she is busy, but when things are quiet tonight and she has time to think who knows what will be and even if things remain possible today I cannot say what morning will bring.

JGNC

Oh JGNC... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am so sorry to hear this...of course, all recoveries will have ups and downs...it is very common for a WS to feel suicidal...it is very common for a WS to feel anger and resentment during early days of recovery, when coming out of the fog...to blame you for taking away their emotional crutch (OP)...

But this is so intense. What does your counsellor have to say? I did not go back through your entire thread but I did see early on that you've seen a counsellor...are you still?

I worry for you buddy...will you be able to stay strong? Stay the course? Keep your spirits up? Stay motivated to keep trying, despite all the verbal abuse?

Can you get away from her more for the next little while? Do fun/engaging activities with others? Physical activities? Stress-relieving activities?

Are you seeing a counsellor?

I'm thinking of you...please write when you can...awed

what does my counsellor have to say?

Based on what I have talked about my IC says that she needs to be in treatment for various reasons.

I understand about withdrawal causing depression, this is more. Yes OM was a crutch. The thing is, I don't know if the void that OM filled can be filled by our M. It is a long and complicated history and I don't have time to go into it. But what both my IC and our MC (when I went alone) have said is that she may be blaming her individual problems on the M. They may be right. At times my W will echo this. Ofcourse my own shortcomings made it easy for her to blame the M.

I wish I had more time to go into this. I'm still here but staying strong is hard and this is making me question choices I made in the past. Recovery is hard enough without adding this on top of it. I can't really get away right now.

On the other hand since Mon, things have been ok, we'll see where things go. Just going day to day right now.

JGNC

I should have been clearer...absolutely I agree with you...this is WAY beyond a "normal" recovery reaction from a WS...that's why I am so concerned for your well-being.

I am sorry to hear you can't get some emotional space...please try to give yourself whatever positive breaks you can: an hour, a walk around the block, talking with friends about something lighthearted. It does work when trying to cope with a truly helpless situation. A friend used these coping techniques when she was embroiled (ie. over 2 years) with her violent, schizophrenic son. The value of short-term relief cannot be overestimated.

And of course, post/vent if it helps.

I'm very relieved to hear you have professional help with this situation. I'm keeping you in my thoughts...awed

HI JGNC and awed 18.
(Quotes by JGNC in italics)

"She continues to suffer from depression, so we are back on the rollercoaster we were on before and during our first year of marriage except this time she is refusing to seek treatment."

I am glad to read that you are hanging in there though it seems very difficult for you right now. I agree with a lot that awed posted concerning your recovery. I've been concerned about you as far as how are dealing what is going on with W. I have a question for you.
Does a lot of what you wife is feeling transfer to you? I guess I mean, if she has a hard time coping with what is happening between you do you take on the same attitude or disposition that she does?

I guess I'm trying to ask do you find yourself going in the same vein of having a negative reaction or see what you are accomplishing as a failure if she doesn't react as you would like. If she is on the rollercoaster, it doesn't mean that you have to go with her. I may be missing a point or two but I think it goes back to finding a way to detach from how WS reacts, not acting uncaring or indifferent but I mean finding a way seperate from W reactions and attitudes so that you can stay grounded and at peace while you go through this transition.

It seems that a part of your battle is trying to deal with your concerns and hers and you M as well as other aspects of your life. When if you were able to keep a seperation from things that cause you to loose focus then maybe it will help
you make more strides toward your goals. Tell me what you think.

well, what I am trying to accomplish feels hopeless because while I can make the changes I feel I need to, she is not getting the help she needs. Before we can recover she is going to have to recover.

for 2 maybe 3 years everytime her temper flared or she feel into a deep depression episode I learned to detach and to understand that it wasn't about me I was just the only target around. What I needed to do then was be there for her when she came out of it. It helped but it still hurts to see the person you care about the most suffer so much.

Depression not only affects the depressed but also those closest to the depressed person. Eventually one starts to walk on eggshells around the person. Or to just keep quiet about things one is unhappy. Even if the outbursts are infrequent. Where does this leave me, when she was depressed I had to take care of everything in the house because she was either while any my needs went unmet. When she wasn't depressed she was in an EA and I was wondering why she spent so little time with me (again unmet needs). Even then she was still unhappy in the M and openly considering her options for the future (leaving).

The truly sick part in all of this is that those moments when she is not depressed I get suspicious that he has made contact again. Thankfully none of those fears have been justified.

Now I am just venting and things are getting muddled in my head.

I suppose I should be thankful that today she isn't depressed but as my IC said, until there is a period of stability we will not be able to address our M.

Thanks for the support both of you. I do have some escapes, classical music and tolkien give me a respite for now. Friends are being a good support for the both of us though they don't know it.

an update,

I suppose this week has been a good one. We took a trip into the mts over the weekend and since then things have been ok btwn us. I have not seen her go into deep depression but it is still there. I have no angry outbursts and this is good. It is going to take some time before I can trust that there won't be anymore.

She had C w/ OM again last night, the first time in a week. A 30 sec conversation. When she told me... well it hurt. The feeling surprised me. I tried to explain my feelings w/out LB and also thanked her for her honesty. We did not talk much after that. She still misses OM everyday. I don't expect that to change any time soon. She says that if there was some magic way to make those feelings she has go away she would do it. However she won't go into IC.

I'm not sure when it will be safe to talk about M again.

One good thing, we did identify some Domestic Support issues that she thinks would make her feel more comfortable and secure in the home. I will try to get us to work through that and maybe something possitive will come from it.

Good to hear it! A bit of positive for you...and while talking about OM is painful, that is wonderful that she is opening up to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> A very good thing, although it may not feel that way at the time...

JGNC: feel under no obligation to respond to me, I know your time is limited. I am throwing out these thoughts just in case they help...not to badger you, not to be condescending...you have been dealing with these problems for a long time...sometimes a fresh eye can suggest a new angle...okay?

Why won't your W go into IC? Has she done this before? (ie. refused to get help) Is she in denial that anything is wrong with her?

I read an interesting site on intervention today and thought there could well be quite a number of situations here on this board that could benefit (like alcoholics). I hadn't thought of you until I just read your post but now it occurs to me...if you are always the "bad" guy, the one telling her something is wrong, etc. Perhaps broadening the group, others bringing pressure to bear, would help?

I've had a fair bit to do with mental health issues over the last 2 years, a couple of cases of schizophrenia in particular. (In one of the cases, intervention was one of the tactics we considered using until forcable removal to the hospital happened. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) Now I know that is not your W's problem but the thing I've found fascinating is how much denial of sickness goes on when dealing with mental illness. Even when violence erupts and the police/courts are involved, there is still such a level of denial.

And I have known other depressed people who just sink in and will not help themselves. In fact, get quite angry at the thought that there is anything wrong with them AND that anyone can help them (oxymoron).

Is your C helpful? Have they suggested any strategies for getting your W help? Have you tried the local mental health organization? On-line resources?

Hang in there...awed

Here is my W stance on IC and treatment. In August she came to the decision that she could not live her life depending on a medication to make her functional so she quit. At the time, though it cause a some stress, I was supportive. She does not feel like any counselor has ever really helped her in the past so she does not want to go into that again. Also because of the EA she feels that she will just recieve a lot of labels and judgements.

She also sometimes feels that she has been throuh so much counseling to deal with her past and with her temper that this is as good as it gets. She considers herself broken and to some degree unfixable.

In the past to talk to her about counseling was to somehow imply that there was something wrong with her, this would destroy her self esteem. This really isn't the case anymore though.

There is a silver lining to all of this. That is that she thinks that she cannot go back to work without therapy & meds. The stress would be too much for her to deal with. If she goes back to school I will press her to go back as well for the same reason.

I can understand how she feels, it can be hard to separate "I need help" from the self destructive "There is something wrong with me" especially for a depressed person.

I don't know what allies I have that could help her come to see that she needs to go into therapy again. Especially since right now the depression is OM related. Even if she did then there is the problem of her not being completely honest w/ a therapist.

So until she can see that she needs this and realizes that she will need to do work and be honest to make progress I'm just waiting and being as supportive as I can.