well...you are a gem! And she is very very very lucky to have you as an H...and if you are feeling down, you just come here so we can keep on telling you how well you are doing!

You are a good person JGNC...all my best to you...awed

update,

Saturday was a pretty bad day, I let a lot of negative feelings get the best of me. For the first time though she began to talk to me about ENs. Specifically, financial support. Or rather financial support in the future. I'll try to organize my thoughts on that later. I have other things on my mind, specifically contact.

here we go again it seems. Tonight I just found out she has been in contact again. Expressing how NC is not her idea and that she loves him. Also trying to exchange pictures. Now she is being more deceptive, encouraging him to use an new e.mail account so that the filter will not catch it.

I'm not really sure what to do at this moment. I will have to confront her yet again and start that wretched process all over again.

Hi JGNC and awed18

Please forgive my inconsistent replies.

J, I was excited to read about the strides you and W are making. Oh a trip in the mtns sounds heavenly though cold (I'm a sunny southern girl).

I can see how W's setback in making contact is a downer. The positive of it is that perhaps she has began to understand even if only for a short while that she is able to handle being without him (OM) and appreciate just being with you for a time.

I guess in all of this ultimately she still has to make a choice to go the distance or to relapse. For you though you are doing your best and hanging in there, facing great obstacles, this is hurtful but remember though you put your best foot forward still she has to come to some realizations for herself.

So don't beat yourself up or kick yourself because this is a part of the possibilities of Plan A. How are you handling it? How do you feel or what do you think about the setback? Have the two of you talked about her making ammends for setbacks? I know you talked about agreeing to resume MC if certain conditions weren't met. Is this a possibility for you now?
Also are you considering the possibility of Plan B? As you see it do you have any insight on what might have brought on setback, the depression she been going through ot anything else?

Have a good one.

Mountains were very nice, though I'm fairly certain we will not be living out our lives here, I'm grateful for the time we have here. I was a southern guy too, those summers were insane, Like it here much more even w/ the cold.

The thing is I don't think that she was able to be w/out OM at all. There was NC for all of 2 weeks and 1 day. During that entire time she was depressed and missing him like crazy. I think the only reason she told me about the attempt at contact was that she suspected I had seen something on her computer. She came clean when I said nothing. Now she is trying to cover her tracks. I think the lesson she learned is that she is miserable unless without him. I also think that she implemented NC because of my feelings and because she felt watched not because she thought it was necessary for recovery. I know that she was hoping that I would allow her to keep OM as a friend. She made the choice she felt she had too not the one she wanted to make. I did not force her to stop contact but I did tell her what I needed from her. I suppose out of guilt she did it.

So here we are now. I think this setback happened because she did freely choose NC and did not have the kind of support she needed to deal w/ the depression that came w/ withdrawal. I don't know if I didn't do enough or if because of depression there was not much I could do. I wish she had someone to talk to but she has no friends locally and has let all of her old friendships die off. I think she needs to talk to someone who has been where she is now. There is no one she truly trusts including counselors.

I guess I'm being pessimistic.

My IC asked me what it would take for me to end M. I did not really have an answer but I have thought about it. I have been thinking about Plan B but I don't know if I have done a good enough plan A. Secondly because of depression I dread the idea of Plan B.

For now things are quiet and even upbeat between us. I have not comfronted her on C yet. it seems that as long as I don't bring up our M things are fine. And if we talk about the current political campaign things can be down right cheerful. Sometimes I think thats the one thing we have going for us and keeping us together.

Hiya,

As I was reading through your post, I started posing a question to you...then I read further and find it's the same one posed by your IC!

Well...not exactly...I don't think you should even consider leaving the M at this point...but you should be thinking of Plan B...just THINK about it...think about how you feel, how it could be done, what the logistics would be...tackle this with the thinking part of your brain...

You are sounding extremely worn out... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Cheerful conversation is fine but at some point you need a break from the emotional battering you are taking, whether or not it is openly discussed with your W.

Remember: to be effective, you need to get to Plan B before the love drains out of you to such a point that you decide the end the M...this happens to lots of people...very fast. One day, wake up, decide to end the M...no Plan B, just D.

Give your M one more chance before that happens...consider Plan B. She might still wake up.

I'm going to be very blunt about one other issue: has your IC talked to you about suicide? (Your W's, not yours) Many many many WS feel suicidal...your W is already depressed...she has NO emotional support other than you and OM.

From where I am standing, your W is engaged in a heck of a lot of unhealthy behaviour which she refuses to seek help for. At some point, you need to let her reap the full extent of these choices, regardless of her illness.

Tough love is just that...if it comes down to your survival or your W's, who comes first?

As redhat would say, that's my 2 cents.

All the best...awed

First Freetobe, if you are still sick, get well soon.

now..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Well...not exactly...I don't think you should even consider leaving the M at this point...but you should be thinking of Plan B...just THINK about it...think about how you feel, how it could be done, what the logistics would be...tackle this with the thinking part of your brain...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have started thinking about Plan B. There are two things that gnaw at me. First, I don’t think I have done a good enough Plan A, I never exposed the EA nor have I given myself enough time to really change enough for her to see it. Second, because of the strong likelihood of depression I fear what Plan B may do to her, especially w/ no support or treatment.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
You are sounding extremely worn out... Cheerful conversation is fine but at some point you need a break from the emotional battering you are taking, whether or not it is openly discussed with your W.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Depressed is probably a better description. Depressed and angry. I am hurt by her contact w/ OM, angered by the deception, resentful of having to put all of the effort into domestics and just plain tired of having to keep my emotions in check or avoid certain topics because of her depression while she can LB all she wants.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Remember: to be effective, you need to get to Plan B before the love drains out of you to such a point that you decide the end the M...this happens to lots of people...very fast. One day, wake up, decide to end the M...no Plan B, just D.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I’m heading there. Last night was horrible. I was depressed and did not want to talk to her. Just looking at her made me feel worse and her attempts to console just made me angry. Prayer was the only thing that helped me get to sleep. Today having work in front of me is helping as well as having people to talk to about other things. But I don’t want to see her or talk to her. I'm sure during this time I've been LBing. The only communication we have had was when I told her I would be having lunch by myself today. I keep on trying to remind myself that I love this woman, I don’t hate her, I hate some of the actions and choices she has made but I do not hate her. The only feeling I have is anger. She’s been thinking about leaving for her own selfish reasons anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Give your M one more chance before that happens...consider Plan B. She might still wake up.

I'm going to be very blunt about one other issue: has your IC talked to you about suicide? (Your W's, not yours) Many many many WS feel suicidal...your W is already depressed...she has NO emotional support other than you and OM.

From where I am standing, your W is engaged in a heck of a lot of unhealthy behaviour which she refuses to seek help for. At some point, you need to let her reap the full extent of these choices, regardless of her illness.

Tough love is just that...if it comes down to your survival or your W's, who comes first?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We talked about suicide briefly, I did not consider it a threat then because we had NC and I had no reason to think that at least I would not be there.

When I sober up, I put her survival first. If I went into Plan B I feel I would have to do everything I could first to make sure she had support of friends and family to deal with depression and encourage her to go into treatment and make the right choices. She won’t engage others, maybe I can get others to engage her. First I need to find the strength to stay in Plan A.

I wish I'd heard you say that YOU come first! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You can't solve her problems jgnc...I'm sure your counsellor has told you that. She is refusing reasonable options for help...how is that your fault? Of your making?

If not, then why should you reap all the negative consequences? Loss of personal well-being, years off your life from the stress, etc.

Actually, I think you've been doing a pretty good Plan A but I'm not in your shoes so don't know the details. You've seemed to me to be supportive, trying to meet her needs, honestly communicating your hurt, etc. She refuses to get counselling, insists she needs to depend on OM...

This is a classic Plan B situation.

Can you afford counselling with the Harleys? With Cerri? Professional advice would be helpful I suspect. I know they've dealt with folks in depression before and the point is, they can tailor the approach to suit YOU and your specific situation.

Keep thinking of Plan B...as an oasis...that you deserve...your W is selfish, intent on dragging you down with her...she's not a bad person, just caught in her own web of fantasy...many depressed people have A's, she's not that unusual in that respect...I don't know how many have your W's history with depression though...

Don't beat yourself up...you've done what you can...and remember, the next phase is necessary because the first part has not been enough to separate the WS from the OP...that has nothing to do with YOU...it is the choice made by the WS.

Hang in there...awed

I know my answer wasn't the "right" one. I know I cannot solve her problems. I am also not taking the blame for her actions.

Why should I bear the consequences... I would like to say compassion for someone that has suffered most of her life. Maybe its a bit more selfish, wanting to be sure I did all I could. Regardless there comes a point where compassion just enables her "habits".

It's been hard meeting ENs because I don't think she knows what they are. This is a woman that can always tell you what she doesn't want but never what she does want. I never went with the EN questionaire because it would have gone unanswered (is that a DJ?). I've done my best to not LB and be there to listen to her.

I have a hard time thinking of Plan B as an oasis. Leaving my own home for an unspecified amount of time... fun. Or what sending her to her mothers house, cruel and practically throwing her at OM. Though maybe that's what it needs to be to shatter the dependence/fantasy. I can already hear the accusations of manipulation.

I'm thinking of the following right now:
expose depression to friends and her family and ask for help.
Confront her on contact again and try to survive the tempest that will ensue.
Expose affair to friends I can trust and OMW.
Confront OM.
Stay in Plan A until..

If any more contact after that expose A to all and Plan B.

Please pray she comes out of it before it comes to that. Hopeless as it seems right now.

I know you are compassionate...and you love your W! It just seems from this vantage point that you've done what you can. If she was depressed only...but this lashing out at you and adoration of OM...that is the Plan B part of the equation...

Please don't lose hope! Perhaps that is what I would like to convey to you most...that your hope lies within YOU, not your W or the recovery of your M. You are the strong one...nurture yourself for a change because you need it, your marriage needs it.

I read an analogy yesterday that I thought was a good one: this process is like being in a dark tunnel going around curves...you can't see the light at the end because of those curves...you need to trust that eventually the tunnel will end...

I think you are at a dark curve now...trust in yourself.

I am hoping for the best for both you and your W...awed

freetobe ...if you are lurking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...I too hope you are feeling better! awed

I'm not doing anything until my IC session on 2/3

I did confront her on contact. It was pretty much as expected and for a time made me wonder if not going into Plan B was diminishing our chances for recovery, if anything because of her anger.
She feels forced into NC and believes that to be cruel. She seems to respect.. well no.. understand that I need NC but wants to let it run its course. Wether she makes a choice before Plan B becomes necessary to me is up to her. Right now she is too angry, what she said today makes me think that she is trying to punish me by denying me opportunities to fulfill ENs.

Because she WAS receptive to the EN questionaire I have a bit of hope that Plan A can work. But I am putting a time frame on it. 3/1 at the latest.

I am no longer looking for evidence on C, I will assume it continues until she tells me otherwise and agrees that I can verify until I am satisfied that she is truthful about NC.

I am working on two things now, plan B logistics and a recovery plan as I see it. It sounds strange to be working on 2 completely divergent paths. The recovery plan I think is mainly for me, so that I can see that there is a path leading to reconciling the marriage if we choose to walk it. I suppose Plan B is for me as well to understand that there is a path leading to my own recovery if she does not.

That is where thing are at now. It has been a strange and horribly confused week.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Expose affair to friends I can trust and OMW. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I missed this before...and it alters what I said about doing a good Plan A <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ...I was commenting specifically on the rest of Plan A!

Why haven't you exposed the A? Are there family to expose it to as well as friends? I think you mentioned that your W is distanced (completely removed?) from others...are there any that would still have impact with her?

And I did not realize OM was married...why haven't you exposed the A to his wife?

Let me ask another critical question: your W is lashing out a lot (albeit having pleasant interactions at other times)...could things be worse between you? Would exposure make things significantly worse in reality?

You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...and for a time made me wonder if not going into Plan B was diminishing our chances for recovery, if anything because of her anger.
She feels forced into NC and believes that to be cruel. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree...there is a good chance that remaining in Plan A will not work in your favour precisely because she is choosing to continue contact with OM and make you the bad guy. She needs a dose of reality for her choices (just as you need protection for your love for her). Continued long-term support enables the A, especially without exposure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am no longer looking for evidence on C, I will assume it continues until she tells me otherwise and agrees that I can verify until I am satisfied that she is truthful about NC.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That sounds eminently sensible actually.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am working on two things now, plan B logistics and a recovery plan as I see it. It sounds strange to be working on 2 completely divergent paths. The recovery plan I think is mainly for me, so that I can see that there is a path leading to reconciling the marriage if we choose to walk it. I suppose Plan B is for me as well to understand that there is a path leading to my own recovery if she does not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not strange at all! Very reassuring actually. I am extremely pleased you are seriously considering Plan B. And as Just J points out in your other thread, part of that (an important part) is the letter you write...basically a love letter setting out the conditions of recovery. So you see, the paths are not at all divergent!

And please make sure to post your letter when it is ready...I've seen people do an awesome job of editing, helping take out all LBs, all unnecessary info (that won't get through to a WS anyhow), ensure the conditions for recovery are clear, etc. Again: "disinterested" eyes (ie. neutral, 3rd party eyes) are fabulous...use the resources available here to max benefit!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It has been a strange and horribly confused week. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and I hope I am not adding to that equation. A little bit of tough love here at MB too I guess...people not telling you what you necessarily want to hear but how it looks to someone not emotionally engaged in the situation...

BTW: you may want to clarify to others that your W is dealing with significant depression unrelated to the A. That might help them understand some of your logistical concerns for and about her.

Also, I am sure there are others who have had depressed WS (actually I believe Ice Princess is one of them), and they may be able to give you some significant support for what you are going through...will go through. Seek them out jgnc...

Take care of yourself...I am thinking of you a lot these days...awed

Ok, I'm sure the answer to the exposure thing is somewhere in the thread. I have not exposed the affair to family (hers or mine) because I do not trust them to help. Her family history is not a good one. If they began to tell her what she was doing was wrong etc she is more likely to shut them out completely. I say this not out of speculation. Long before D-day and my being here, we had talked about separation she felt that if she did that, her family only judge her and she would have to shut them out of her life. As far as my family goes, in the past when we dated, my family was fairly destructive to our relationship. She has no real ralationship with any of them. She likes my mom but views everyone else with suspicion. I don't share much personal information with them anyway. Also I do not trust my father much at all. To go to my family would be causing myself unecessary drama.

Exposing the EA to friends will not help much other than to build support for myself. She has no close friends that she shares her thoughts with or that have influence in her life.

Exposing to OW... I think this comes to fearing the short term consequences. I know I have an obligation to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Let me ask another critical question: your W is lashing out a lot (albeit having pleasant interactions at other times)... could things be worse between you? Would exposure make things significantly worse in reality?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the crux of it really. At the time I made the decision to not expose I felt like there was nothing to gain and everything to loose. Now I am questioning all of my early decissions. Intentional or not her behavior towards me has been abusive. Even she knows this and has openly wondered why I stayed with her.

Since then, 2 friends know but they don't get involved and since she has no individual relationship with them there is not much they could do anyway.

As you can probably guess she is a very lonely person and it makes giving up OM that much harder.

She seems to believe that the relationship w/ OM will die off eventually. Even if it did I don't see what she could do at that point to make ammends to me.

When and if I make the decision to go into plan B I will use every resource available here.

Update

Slowly I have been exposing the EA to friends, it turns out I have better friends than I thought. Having their prayers and support is helping me enough that I now feel I can stay in Plan A for a little while longer.

W has been quite depressed for a week and it started to get bad 2 days ago. Keeping busy and a number of social engagements has really helped.
The depression is due to withdrawal, Although I said I would not look anymore I had to and verified this. If she would only make it through withdrawal this time. She won't reach out to anyone though any one of our friends would listen to her w/out judgement.

Last night while we were talking about an acquaintance of ours the concept of therapy came into a conversation. Eventually she volunteered her own position. She knows that therapy for depression will not work if she does not want it to so really any healing will have come from her. Because the desire to change has to come from her she sees no point in seeing a therapist. I told her that even though change has to come from within it can be too hard to go it alone and gave myself as an example. I would not be surviving if it were not for the support I have found.

I hope that the small changes I am seeing are real.

On my end I finally decided that I must talk to OMW. My plan is to print the evidence I have and put it in the mail. I also think I should talk to OM and tell him to not try and contact my W and tell him to confess to his W before the package arrives.

Well that's all. Feeling OK today. I hope it lasts.

J.

Good to hear it! I think that is a positive posting...little baby steps right? And the news about your friends is so terrific...I am sure you've gathered that I have been very concerned for YOUR welfare.

Good plan about the exposure. I agree with you that it is time.

Also, I thought today as I read through Suzet's most recent posting...have you read any of her stuff? She had what I consider to be a mild A...never physical...I don't even think a lot of contact in real life...but she certainly went through withdrawal big time and documented her struggles well...

My thinking was that reading it might help you gain strength in your plan...you know...to weather the inevitable storm...

Again...you sound better, more...steady somehow...all the best to you...awed

Hi JGNC

(Quotes from JGNC in italics)

Thank you for the well wish. I am under some meds now that are helping me feel much better. So I'll be posting more as I can.

How are you? Seems that IC is going well. From what I've read I see there have been some difficult times but it seems that things are looking up some.

I am happy also to hear about exposure.
Gosh, I had thought that you were set against talking to friends, but I am glad that you decided to take this step.

She won't reach out to anyone though any one of our friends would listen to her w/out judgement.

Does she trust or like more one of your friends whom you've confided in that can maybe put themselves out there as an ear to listen to her if she wants to talk?

"I also think I should talk to OM and tell him to not try and contact my W and tell him to confess to his W before the package arrives."

Do you think he will heed your warning? Have you and he communicated before?

I'm wishing you the best on the new steps you are taking. Just wishing you the best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Awed18, thanks for the reference. There are so many resources available here that I wish my W would resource, but that's neither here nor there. She will when she does.

Freetobe, glad to see you are doing better, I hope that you get better this soon.

Things are looking up today. I just need to get my mind settled and focused now.
IC is going well. The sessions help me keep perspective, not to elated when things are good or too down when they are bad. Last 2 weeks have been bad but I am starting to see a small change.

I have not asked any of them to reach out to her, I don't know how she would react. She has real trust issues stemming from early adolesence. I think the most I can do is encourage her to reach out to them.

OM and I have spoken in the past when they worked together, years ago. I don't know if he would heed the warning. I am doing it mostly as a courtesy to OMW. I would have prefered for my WW to confess and want a recovery than me having to find out and negotiating for a recovery.

Update,

So in the past DJs were a big problem of mine, often others would hurt her or critize her and I would more than likely see their side of it than hers or simply imply that she was being overly sensitive. It lead her to feel like I did not have any loyalty to her. With good reason. So I'm no angel, but I have learned.

Today, we were having a discussion about my SIL whom she does not like. This time I validated how she felt and even agreed with her instead of my former behavior. Later in the day I saw her for lunch. A song came on in the restaurant that reminded her about OM and so we started to talk about him. We got to talking about loyalty and she said that one of the things she never liked about him is that he did not show loyalty to her, ie. Not willing to protect her feelings from the disrespect of others, specifically another possible OW of his. Then she tells me that she feels that loyalty from me citing our earlier conversation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We got to talking about the fantasy of the A. It was all very possitive. She sees that I am making changes to address her unhappiness in the M as it was. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe I am reading to much into this but I have noticed she was speaking of him in past tense for the first time.

Later in the day I was looking over my "evidence" file that I will be sending to OMW, specifically the very first thing I discovered. For the first time it did not make me angry to read it. Rather I saw a lonely vulnerable person looking for someone to connect to, to support her and understand her, knowing full well that it was all a fantasy that would not last.

I pray that NC holds. We talked about her depression and some of the progress she has been making dealing with it on her own. I still think a therapist will help. It is still a comfort to know that she is aware of the problem and is trying to help herself.

That's all. It was a good day.

JGNC

PS. Awed if you read this, I say in another thread that you worked in the media before? Out of curiousity what did you do? Media is my W passion so I've developed quite an interest in it as well. She's a former media person, hopefully going into grad school.

(Quotes from JGNC in italics)

"This time I validated how she felt and even agreed with her instead of my former behavior. "

Hats off to you JGNC. Being able to recognize your previous wrong, then show her a new part of you sounds like major progress. While putting the bad guy (OM) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> in the light, you proably gave yourself a point and made a love bank deposit or two. And I'm sure you feel a lot stronger too.

Aside from what you've done for yourself reading your post you've had helped me too. Now that the A is over with my H and we were working toward recovery I have fallen into a setback.

Things were going ok and progressing to some degree but all of the past has come to haunt me, if you will. I have found it diffcult to be empathetic. Your post gives a perfect example of how to be just that. I realize why but I'm not sure how to cope yet though I have been taking time to think it over.

Well so much about my status, I'm just glad to hear your good news. Maybe I'll post more later.

Freetobe,

If you need to, please post more. You are right, it is diffficult to be empathic, this weekend I have been struggling with it. As usual my wife has been feeling very lonely and would not talk to me about it, because she does not want to hurt my feelings w/ details of the A. She said that she wished I could be her friend like we were before we ever dated. Well, I want to be her best friend again so I asked her to take a chance and talk about whatever she had too. What has followed has been very painful for me to hear but also helpful for her to not feel so alone.

It's hard to be empathic when you are trying to understand a situation that caused you so much pain. I don't know if this is right or not but I think I am going to need something major from my W to ever get over this.