I was wondering about the part where you say that you will need something major from your wife. Would you like to share more about that or what you mean?

I do hear you when it comes down to listening to things that are hurtful especially when you are the one that has been hurt. For me I've been trying to get my H to open up more. But I realize that in order for me to do this I need to be a friend more.

However I am finding it diffcult to be a friend and lover and W and all the other things at the same time. I ran this by awed and I'll share it with you also.

My H and I never had the chance to have the typical "fall in love situation". We tried a relationship at first and I messed up the first time. Then we decided to try again. He messed up this time and even with greater inconsideration than I had before.

As a result we stayed with this relationship that has been having problems since its beginning. We advanced to engagement and marriage without having cultivated a relationship. You, see the A has been on for as long as the R has been on (though it ended 11/03).

So times when he treatd me shabby and disrespectfully I tolerated it without truly knowing about the A until I came to MB later this year. I wanted to preserve this R for all the wrong reasons. When I should've let my H go because he wasn't worth dating at the tiem I hung in there with him.

I wanted us to be happy together but I never made boundaries and I never required him to do what he needed to to show me that he wanted this. So consequentially I am dealing with stubborn ways of him not wanting to change. Though he is great in some things he is withholding in others. I have tried to talk it over with him but talk is like in one ear and out the other or he becomes really agitated.

So now that the A is over, which happened in 11/03 I have been faced with trying to help him understand important concepts which I feel are difficult for him to understand because he is not motivated to and I am not motivated to tolerate his lack of cooperation.

Hindsight is 20/20. But hey I brought this on myself. Now is figuring out where to take this from here. Well this is my story for the time. If you have na opinion you'd like to share please don't hesitate.

Deleted post, completely unproductive rant.

<small>[ February 11, 2004, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: jgnc ]</small>

I suppose I'm just frustrated. I wish I could see a sign of real commitment but that's just rushing things and there is nothing I can do about it. baby steps.

I read your post and your post to starfish. The question I would ask you now is are your feelings based on reality? You sound very frustrated. To go through Plan A and into recovery you had to give a lot and it can be really frustrating when you don't see the return you would like. I'm living that right now like you wouldn't believe.
Remember the thread about a BS also going through a kind of fog.

When you are not discussing M or MB principles how is your relationship? Are there good moments from the past that you can build on? If with time he came around do you think that you could be happy living the rest of your life w/ your H?
Hey may not be receptive to making changes but does he love you and treat you like he loves you?
Does he know how drained you feel or helped you deal w/ the aftermath of the A?

Eventually he will have to come around or he will loose you one way or another. That's my opinion. But that's his part to decide. On your side, do you really believe the reason you married him was to pull him away from OW?

I would never encourage someone to stay in a bad and hopeless situation, I guess I'm just saying, be sure. I don't know if you have gone through IC or not but you may want to consider. If you made a decision in while your mind was clouded w/ the A then you do have options.

Pls take care, I know I posed a lot of questions, don't feel obligated to answer them.

Hi JGNC.
(quotes by JGNC in italics)

I'm good. I know it is frustrating trying to be sure that W is sincere in recovery. I hope with you as well that she is trying this time.

I read your post last night. I wrote a rough draft post but wanted to think it through more so I delayed my post back.

Hi awed also, miss hearing from you.

Well your questions are good ones, thought provoking.

"The question I would ask you now is are your feelings based on reality?"

I'm not quite sure that I understant this question. I do feel that my feelings are based in reality. Having a desire for my S to make changes that can actually build a R in this M is to me very realistic.

Is it realistic to want to go back to the beginning and make a "head over heels, fall in love" experience may be questionable as far as being realistic. I mean we are alredy in the M so how can we go back to the beginning?

I don't expect that we can and that isn't exactly what I'm looking for. My H promised me before I took him back after the final episode that he would work as hard at this R as I had. That tells me that he understood that I was having a difficult time hanging in there with him and his OW and his foolishness and that I must've loved him if I did.

That being said, to me that meant that he now needs to hang in there with me and change his way of being. I realize that we have 2 different meanings when it comes down to what actutally means working hard at a R. Perhaps it would've benefited me to expain this and allow him to show me bfore I took him back.

Well now I'm in it with him and I feel that "working hard at it" only means as he would like. It means making only the changes that he has decided that he would like to make. He is very stubborn when it comes to this type of thing. I don't know if it has to do with him comprehending what I mean or if he is just content to do want he wants to. Well since he is quiet and doens't ask questions how do I know he is listning or just blowing me off? (In the past this was also a problem between us.)

When I speak to him about making changes in a way that I feel will help to strengthen our relations he seems to disregard what I say. I think it stays with him for that moment then it is lost. So as I've tried to perservere with him I feel that it is in vain. To me, it is like trying to communicate with an unwilling party.

Outside of discussing MB we get along well as, like friends, but the romance isn't there. In this way we don't put any requirements on each other. That is just fine with me. But that has its drawbacks. That means to me that you don't necessarily get all of the priviledges or niceties of a person who is intimate and romantic (catch my drift). Otherwise it is difficult (for me) to be romantic and intimate with someone who I can't make any requirements of or get any expectations from that doens't listen to or value what I say. and to take it a step further people don't normally stay friends with people that they feel don't show friendship by taking them seriously.

Remember what you said about how you mentioned when your W was offended by something someone else said and how you would take the side of her opponent. But the other day you listened to her, you showed her you took how she felt seriously.

Well I feel that in this regard my S doesn't take me seriously. When I tell him how I feel and he continues in the same vein as if I hadn't said a word it makes me wonder what I mean to him. This makes me feel that he doesn't love me or he doesn't enough to sacrifice making change.

So that is why I feel that perhaps we both need to learn about being in love with a person moreso than "falling in love". Harley says that love is the motivation to stay in a M right? If there is already a love deficit there has to be a deposit come in there somewhere.

So JGNC I guess we are now at the point where I feel that we both need to understand what the other wants and make negotiations or somehting like this. But how can you when I talk to him and he doesn't interact but is quiet? Especially when he's told me that he has found in life it is better to be quiet and play in the middle to keep people off your back. Middle means mediocre to me. It means one isn't willing to try harder and that doens't work well for me.

Maybe I need to change my approach. I'm still thinking the matter over. Well sorry to drown you in so much detail. Some of it is venting and I really don't mind if you don't read it all. I think it helps me to think at the same time.

Freetobe,

I did not mean to question if your expectations were realistic. When I read your post it sounded to me that you were very down and questioning your M. So I guess it was a step back and get the big picture kinda recommendation. Feel free to ignore it if that's not the case.

I am coming to see that ending the A is the easy part.

I do not think that your expectations are unrealistic. That's why we are here, because we believe it can be better. One of the things MB strives to achieve is sustained romantic love.
You don't want to be just your spouses friend. You want to be much more than that and it is realistic to want that.

Boundaries and expectations are not bad things. You say that you are ok w/ not having requirements of each other. but it has its drawbacks. One of those drawbacks will inevitably be resentment. Setting boundaries is a hard thing to do. Somehow it implies setting an ultimatum. Thats not what it is. What I'm beginning to see is that it means that when a boundary is crossed it will be addressed, it will be addressed respectfully and lovingly but it will be addressed.

Some of what you say about your H reminds me of complaints my W has had about me. It seems like he is comfortable w/ the status quo and is the type of person that likes to avoid conflict whenever possible. His needs are being met so his personality tells him that everything is just fine.

That kind of personality is hard to deal with. I know my W suffered a lot because of it. Sometimes we get the mistaken impression that when we go married we achieved the prize and we don't have to try anymore. Which is a bloody laugh. Marriage is work and requires upkeep. That doesn't mean it is should be a chore, rather something you enjoy working on.

How are your LBs when you talk to him about what you need? I'm asking because my W's LBs made it very difficult to empathize w/ how she felt.

There's a lot of comments floating around in my head that don't seem to want to make to the keyboard so I'll stop.

Don't worry about dumping too much detail here.
Anyways I really recommend seeing a MC. If he won't go, do it by yourself first. It's good to get support here and lots of folks give great advice (awed) but theres a different dynamic when you can actually talk to someone.

Take care,

JGNC

maybe later I'll post an update.

Gosh JGNC you said a lot in that post that actually hit my feelings on the nail.

I'm glad that you clarified what you meant about my feelings being based in reality. Because actually I did need to do an assessment, to step back and see that my M at the current point isn't the most horrible thing in the world. I think sometimes I tend to feel that way. Sometimes I feel like a mute who's talking but noone is lsitening. Sounds a little weird? I mean my mouth is moving and I hear the words coming out, but it is taken like a mumble or just noise.

My S may feel that it is ok for him not to speak up but for me it makes me feel that what I'm saying is not being validated. Oh but let someone say something that either offends him
(about him)or he make a point that I listen to but not reply to and he sits there forever going back over his point seeking approval from me. Like a big baby.

But when it is serious conversation, I might as well be talking to the wind. "Hello O' great wind of the North, South, East and West!" is what I might as well say when I'm talking to him.

I have considered going to a free MC that I've heard about. Maybe it will help me. But I want to go to one that supports concepts addressed here.

You made a valid point here:
"Setting boundaries is a hard thing to do. Somehow it implies setting an ultimatum. Thats not what it is. What I'm beginning to see is that it means that when a boundary is crossed it will be addressed, it will be addressed respectfully and lovingly but it will be addressed. "

I will admit I have a problem setting boundaries and then allowing my S to decided if he will follow or not. Most of the time I feel that he has to or that is it. I guess I do because to me that boundaries are important and also I have to abide by them as well.

It is difficult to do it lovingly when I already know that I'm not being heard. And also when my S will not at least acknowledge what I say. And I do ask him to tell me if he disagrees then also tell me if he understands or if he has something different to share.

Awed18 mentioned to me to try to do this in fun, right? That is the hard part. Especially when exactly as you picked up, I know he is trying to avoid conflict. So that makes me apprehensive about addressing anything.

And yes he does feel as long as his needs are met everything is ok. So I figure that I will not meet them so that perhaps my actions will say "red" flag, "everything isn't ok. We're going under here. Need some attention from ya." Then the only thing he sees to try next at getting around the the red flag without having to do anything else.

My Lb's were ok at first. I started talking things over with him but it seemed to only be that I could do it when something happened surrounding the A. Like if an issue about NC came up. Trying to discuss it outside of that was difficult. I could tell that he was shutting down when I tried to talk with him about it in just conversation. I think that is because at that time he was upset still about me exposing it to OW H and also he still had tender feelings about it.

Now, because I feel that I can't make any expectations of him to discuss the matter my feelings are as you already said starting to turn into resentment. And also when I see him act in ways that remind me of how he behaved when he was in the A. I guess it has been fermenting for some time. But what does one do? What did it take for you to turn around? What caused you to change your mind? I know the A might be a part of it but what really got through to you?

Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate it.

Update:

My H and I had a little talk last night. I think he is becoming somewhat interested in what is going on with me and my concerns. I am putting out my first letter since we've been M to address what I feel and some of my concerns to H. I am trying to spoon feed him.

I don't know why I hadn't thought to write before. Anywho, as usual I am left to appeasing the voice of redo in my head that requires me to repeatedly rewrite this letter making sure it contains no more and no less than I think is best to get accross my point, interest him and be as brief as possible all at the same time. Well wish me luck.

hi guys...just wanted to pop in here real fast and say HI!!!

I wrote you both a long post on Friday that vanished into the ether just before I posted it...I&#8217;d written a long post because I have a book to recommend to you...and I quoted from it -- typed out various passages to give you some idea of why I was so excited about it, and the relevance I think people here can get from it, etc.

Anyhow...have no time now so very very short post instead...

freetobe: book is called How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together by Susan Page. Definitely check it out! I think you will find an absolute wealth of info there, including step by step diagnostic of relationship...

I can't wait to hear what you think actually...see if you have the kind of epiphany that I did...

jgnc: don&#8217;t know if you'll find it as relevant...it's more for the BS during recovery (after all, you already have Plans A & B to follow!) but I thought you might be interested in having a read nonetheless. Maybe browse in a bookstore...

This book goes hand-in-glove with MB concepts but I think takes it further...very practical, uses exercises, gives tools/techniques, etc.

One specific tool is the Emergency Resentment Abatement Procedure (ERAP) to deal with problems/fights/bad feelings. Very very good...would be good for all MBers to follow actually, no matter what plan they're in.

Anyhow...keeping it short!

It's an awesome book...let me know if you want to hear more...I'll check back in later this week and really read through your posts...so far I&#8217;ve just skimmed but am thrilled that you are having such good discussions! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

And also that you have find a tiny bit of hope freetobe&#8230;please don&#8217;t give up&#8230;try this book and her suggestions&#8230;awed

Whoa! Re-read my message and realize I left something VERY unclear...

jgnc: the book is NOT A-related at all! (She never mentions adultery) What I meant by my comment to you is that a BS in recovery has so much of their own resentment to deal with...and often (usually?) a discouraged, guilty, resentful, withdrawn or otherwise resistant partner to boot.

It is really hard to get through the recovery doldrums...in fact, I saw your comment on "getting over the A is the easy part" and you are quite correct.

The MB plans are very specific...but they sort of end at recovery! You have all the good tools but let's say you have my problem: your S doesn't believe in all that "BS" and so you can't even get to the point of POJA (except on your own, which is what I've been doing).

THIS is who this book is written for...to give you the patience and altered perspective that will help you ride out a long recovery.

Shucks! Now I've jumped the gun and spilled the plot-line to you after all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...yes, it involves a change in perspective. But I think that is a good thing.

And all the struggles I've seen on the recovery boards for the past 2 months in particular...they are all addressed here. A change in perspective...simple but not easy! (of course...)

That's why I said: perhaps you don't think you need something else right now. But I still think you may want to look at it for the future...think of it as an investment...I sure wish I'd had this advice starting out on my M recovery because I KNOW things would have gone a lot better if I had.

I'm sick of the school of hard-knocks which is why I keep on posting for others...please don't re-invent the wheel!!! It hurt enough the first time... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

freetobe: you may want to seriously consider looking at this book before you write the letter...time is on your side now, you know...no rush...

...and letter-writing is a VERY good way to go <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ...slows down the communication and helps you actually clarify what it is you want to say...awed

<small>[ February 16, 2004, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Freetobe,

What finally got through to me.... The short version. I finally understood that my actions were hurting the woman I loved.

Longer version.
As far as communication (W talking at me rather than with me) this was a big big problem for me up until a year ago. She felt like I did not take her seriously or was trying to hurt her by keeping silent rather than at least acknowledging her feelings. About 1 year ago we had a huge argument about just that, she got so angry that she took off even though I needed the car to get to work. I got so angry that I got on my bike and rode to work (10 degree weather). That evening she called me at work and offered an olive branch. This had to be one of the few times that she controlled her temper, put her feelings aside and simply reached out to me. I was very moved by that. The next day I made an IC appointment. When she did that, I finally realized that wether or not I thought I had a problem that I needed to work out, the bottom line is the greatest person I had ever known was suffering because of my behavior and I did not want to live like that any longer. Something just snapped.

With the EA it was something similar. She had complained for a long time that my lack of ambition and tendency to get comfortable dragged her down. It was hard for me to take seriously. One, because this critizism was always usually accompanied by an LB and 2, because the message seemed to change every 2 weeks from that to "its not you its me." The EA and finding MB made me realize that I needed to figure out what she needed. I am trying now though I can't say that we see eye to eye on this yet.

I am glad to see that he may be beginning to understand. If I can suggest something. Talk to him about boundaries. I'm saying this because as part of a conversation tonight (more on this later) I've had to talk to my WW about boundaries and how A) I never learned to set them and B) she has learened (I taught her) that an AO gets her way every time. This is not at all resolved but it is starting a dialog about what a healthy relationship should be like.


Awed,
Thanks for the recommendation. I'll look into it.


So my update, its a confusing one.

Things have been encouraging. There have been some good things occurring. First WW is finally acknowledging my feelings and her actions. In particular the betrayal. There had not been any C in a few weeks (more on this later). We are making progress in a few projects at home and she seems encouraged by my progress at work and at home. Anyways, she has shown me that she does want to end contact. At one point she was on her computer and he came online. At that moment she came down stairs to spend time with me because she did not want to make contact. So there is some encouragement.

At this point she still cannot express true commitment to me or the M. This hurts but I realize that it may be a long time before she can express commitment and mean it. She does say she does want the M to work.

The not so good things is that verification and trust are points of contention. She figured that I had installed keylogger software on her machine and demanded that I remove it. She felt disrespected by it. After a couple of huge AOs I agreed to it. If she could not offer me a way to verify that I can trust her then I was not going to force it on her. It is so strange that she can acknowledge that she betrayed me and say that my anger and suspicion is understandable but that she would not give me the one thing that could help. All because of her pride and inalienable right to privacy.

So skip forward to today, (few hours ago). She's been sad for a few days. All because of old old things (5yrs ago) w/ OM. At one point I went into her office because she had wanted to show me something earlier. She asked me to come back later. I was very suspicious. After a few moments I asked her if she was talking to OM. She was. sigh. I got very angry and left, slammed the door to my office. She sat outside my office and refused to leave. She felt her place was there. She knows that she is hurting me and she does not want to but she's like a moth to flame. At some point she said that she would go if I asked her because she did not want to hurt me. In a sense she was proposing that I go into plan B. She wants some time to sort this out without causing me more pain. She also seems to want time to get herself together, relearn to take care of herself again and then come back to the M. She knows there is no future w/ OM and that the road for her is in our M. However right now she cannot say that there will ever be NC. Her indepenedent side refuses to be told what to do.

I really don't know what to do. Exposure to OMW never happened at the request of my IC. IC thought that it may not be wise to toss the inevitable turmoil that would cause when WW seemed to be coming around. I don't know what's right anymore.

thats all.

Awed,

Again thanks for the book recommendation. For a brief moment there it seemed like we were moving into recovery, after tonight I have no idea. But for that moment, although I was glad there was no contact I was really really angry. For the first time in a while I was not worrying about plan A. I think that for the past 5 mo. I have mostly tried to not LB stay possitive and worry about her needs and making all the right changes. Doormat. For the first time I think I actually really began to think about my feelings and what she had done. The feelings that came out of that were incredible. At one point I seemed hell bent on destroying any chances at recovery I was so angry.

Now after todays events. I don't know what I feel, just another punch I need to roll with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have mostly tried to not LB stay possitive and worry about her needs and making all the right changes. Doormat. For the first time I think I actually really began to think about my feelings and what she had done. The feelings that came out of that were incredible. At one point I seemed hell bent on destroying any chances at recovery I was so angry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DANGEROUS. First off...you are NOT a doormat. Second...those feelings are simply going to keep on getting stronger. So...can you get the book? Can you get to a bookstore and just read it? Use the ERAP...you'll need it more and more.

You have done an amazing job my friend. Okay? Do you hear that loud and clear? You have done SO well.

1. Don't lose sight of Plan B. Things cannot continue on much longer or your love will be gone. (Does your counsellor understand this?) It is the BIGGEST danger to your M right now...not OM, not your W, not turmoil. YOU.

You are the only one holding the M together. You have to have the resources to continue doing so.

2. Check out the book's ideas. Are there any there that speak to you?

Here's what I'm thinking.

Maybe there are areas that you need to change all by yourself. Maybe you need to let go of your W. Maybe she doesn't need to live somewhere else for you to do this.

As long as you are still getting angry, you haven't accepted that it is completely up to her whether or not she changes.

I thought I had accepted this notion, and then reading the book showed me very clearly exactly where I had not. I NEED to let go completely. I need to accept that he will not change. But our relationship can, because it is a dance with two people, so when one changes the moves, the other one does perforce.

So maybe, just maybe, there is something in there that will help you over the next little bit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She's been sad for a few days. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...so let her be sad. Don't be bothered. She has the right to feel this way and it is no reflection on you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> relearn to take care of herself again </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...so let her learn. Let go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At this point she still cannot express true commitment to me or the M. This hurts but I realize that it may be a long time before she can express commitment and mean it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...stop asking. Let it be. This is honest anyhow. That's a start.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At that moment she came down stairs to spend time with me because she did not want to make contact. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's incredible! Celebrate!! Enthusiasm!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She had complained for a long time that my lack of ambition and tendency to get comfortable dragged her down. It was hard for me to take seriously. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...good because that's her problem and not yours. However, look at how you can support her with love. Empathize that it must be hard for her to feel this way, especially when she suffers from depression. POJA what level of ambition you both can live with.

There's lots of stuff you can do without accepting that SHE feels how she feels because of you. WRONG! That is her choice to do so. It is not your fault.

I can tell you as a (former) nagging/critical/sad wife myself...this is her problem to deal with.

That said, there are lots and lots of ways you can choose to handle this. Unfortunately, most of your instinctive choices are only going to widen the gulf between you!

To give you one specific thing in the book...she talks about how little things go a long way with women. And the examples she gives sure ring true for me. They may for your W as well.

In other words, the gulf between what is and what would make us happy...is not that wide. Effort on your part to meet needs, be honest, work together to find a solution...those are all excellent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've had to talk to my WW about boundaries and how A) I never learned to set them and B) she has learened (I taught her) that an AO gets her way every time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and this is where I think that book can really help you. The difference between what you want, what you need, how you communicate, and what kind of interaction you have...it's all there.

I can't say enough about it because it is speaking to me so loudly in recovery. It didn't when the A was going on (that's when I bought it and then forgot all about it).

But it certainly speaks to me now -- I've just finished reading it a second time. Because recovery is all about building a healthy M, thoroughly rooting out and eliminating all the bad habits you've grown into. ESPECIALLY when your resentment starts creeping in. Especially when you have your first major disagreement. The bad habits will sneak up on you before you know it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She felt like I did not take her seriously or was trying to hurt her by keeping silent rather than at least acknowledging her feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...like this one. You can do a better job. I agree with her on this one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the bottom line is the greatest person I had ever known was suffering because of my behavior and I did not want to live like that any longer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...NO! Sorry to be so blunt -- she's suffering because that is her choice. I fell in this trap...lots of women do. And many of us have H that have A. And many of us have A ourselves.

However...this also tells me that you love her deeply and want to work on making your M a supportive one for you BOTH.

Recognize the suffering jgnc...just don't accept ownership of it. Recognize your part in your M problems and work on changing you.

Hope this helps a bit. Overall you sound stronger although a tiny bit down now with the latest events. Think of it as a marathon...you are still in early training. The hard work is ahead. Let me save you some skinned knees and de-hydration. Look deeper in yourself now and start to change the focus onto you in a healthy way.

Hang in there...awed

weird...never had THAT happen before! Posted part of my message seemingly all by itself...these boards are strange...

<small>[ February 17, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

freetobe:

I don't want to take over jgnc's thread, nor the terrific discussion you two are having. I am so happy to see that you are taking that all-important step back into trying to save your M.

That said, I am going to write the reply to you here rather than privately because I think it does relate to jgnc too...it is all part of the same fabric of building a healthy M...starts during Plan A, ending the A, and then continues on in recovery, with all its ups and downs.

I empathize with you: I too am guilty of expecting too much too soon. All good things come to those who wait! That's why anything that helps with patience is so very helpful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I will admit I have a problem setting boundaries and then allowing my S to decided if he will follow or not. Most of the time I feel that he has to or that is it. I guess I do because to me that boundaries are important and also I have to abide by them as well.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and you know better now right? Boundaries are YOURS. You are the only who enforces them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is difficult to do it lovingly when I already know that I'm not being heard. And also when my S will not at least acknowledge what I say. And I do ask him to tell me if he disagrees then also tell me if he understands or if he has something different to share.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...the answer is in the book. It is more than simply communication though. Look at some of my replies to jgnc. Men need to step up to the plate and tell us honestly how they are feeling. But we need to let go of a lot of what we're doing. It is directly harming the M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Having a desire for my S to make changes that can actually build a R in this M is to me very realistic. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...nothing wrong with your feelings. But it is not realistic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Take a look at the response to jgnc. You can change yourself. You can change your perceptions. You can set and enforce YOUR boundaries. You can change the dance and hence the interaction between the two of you.

But you cannot change him. Only he can do so. And as long as you have this desire (see jgnc's W, see my comments about myself...look at most women posters on this board), there will be negative impact on your M.

It is controlling behaviour, albeit quite different than the controlling behaviour men often inflict on women.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I mean we are alredy in the M so how can we go back to the beginning?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Create a new one!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That tells me that he understood that I was having a difficult time hanging in there with him and his OW and his foolishness and that I must've loved him if I did. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay...here's my attempt to save YOU the skinned knee! Accept that. He loves you and you love him. He wants to work on the M. Accept those concepts and believe in them. Start from that point and go on.

Do NOT focus on the negative. That is your choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> to me that meant that he now needs to hang in there with me and change his way of being. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I sense a great drought coming! That's what I thought too and I was wrong. Let it go...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I realize that we have 2 different meanings when it comes down to what actutally means working hard at a R. Perhaps it would've benefited me to expain this and allow him to show me bfore I took him back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...likely. And possibly.

But see if you can try a somewhat different approach, working on the only one you can change...you. See if it makes you happier.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It means making only the changes that he has decided that he would like to make. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and that is the absolute, factual truth. Right?

Go ahead you guys, argue with me! Who makes the decision about whether or not someone else changes???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know if it has to do with him comprehending what I mean or if he is just content to do want he wants to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and this is where the exploration begins. You are going to try and figure out if you can make this M work, despite a reluctant partner.

In the end, if you have given it everything you can, and you are still not happy/content...well then, you will be able to make the decision to end the M with no regrets! This may seem like a raw deal right now but it's not. That is how I find the book empowering...because the shift in focus really does help us to do what we need to do for OURSELVES.

Read Daisy's thread to Pep...do you see what I mean when you look at someone else's example? We are making ourselves the prisoners of our bad thoughts/feelings/emotions. We are getting a very hard life lesson...are we going to use this pain and suffering to our benefit? To learn how to take charge of ourselves?

If so, regardless of the M, we will be better off! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> If not, even if you get want you think you want in the short term (ie. a compliant H who says the right things you want to hear), I suspect that there will be pitfalls on the horizon that will hurt you in the long run (like another A).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To me, it is like trying to communicate with an unwilling party. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and that is why I am convinced this book will help you too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It is written expressly for this purpose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Outside of discussing MB we get along well as, like friends, but the romance isn't there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...this one is a lot harder. And I know the details of some of your struggles with H...I know they are real and hope you do not think I am downplaying them at all. I am not. For some things, I think you will need to set and enforce firm boundaries.

I am however suggesting a different approach overall. The one you've been using isn't working anyway, right? So try something different. Perhaps following this approach will rekindle sexual feelings.

If I haven't told you this before, I didn't really have SF with my H for about 3 years. We used to be passionate with each other. Now I have great desire for him once again. My anger got in the way, plain and simple.

Well...overcoming your negative feelings will take time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I tell him how I feel and he continues in the same vein as if I hadn't said a word it makes me wonder what I mean to him. This makes me feel that he doesn't love me or he doesn't enough to sacrifice making change.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...I know I sound like a broken record...this is the reason I am recommending the book. Change your perspective. We women tend to do this all the time...make these assumptions, assign blame, etc. It's not going to work to make H change. Or if it did, it would be false.

We want real change...right? Not just lip service.

And one more thing: it's hard to talk to someone like jgnc because he cares so much about his W. It's hard not to compare, why can't my H feel the same way about me?

JGNC is here of his own choice. Your H and my H are not. We don't know what they will or will not choose to do in the future. Generally speaking, it is the W who does the R work. Perhaps we simply need to accept that about our H's.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Especially when he's told me that he has found in life it is better to be quiet and play in the middle to keep people off your back. Middle means mediocre to me. It means one isn't willing to try harder and that doens't work well for me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...change your perspective. He's telling you what works for him. Listen and learn. See if you can figure out a way that makes working on your M an advantage to him...good for him. Not just good for you (ie. being "obedient" or "controlled").

Page calls it "loving leadership"...absolutely in tune with everything else we've learned here at MB. Exactly what we were providing during Plan A. Leadership, boundaries, love.

Now our goal is to bring these concepts to the nitty-gritty of everyday life rather than during a crisis. It is hard to do. It is much easier to hold back on everything while in crisis. Much harder each and every day.

So to work... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If you decide to do the work in the book, and you need a partner, let me know. I am willing to help, to struggle along with you actually! I don't know you personally of course but feel I do know you in a lot of ways. Perhaps you have someone you can trust to do it with you, someone close to hand. If not, consider my offer...awed

P.S. And please, both of you...feel free to disagree with anything I've said. If you think it's all hogwash...tell me! I am most interested in learning and we learn most through failure... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

HI JGNC and awed18

First of all thank you both for your post.

JGNC I am sorry to hear about W's setback. So what do you think about where to take things from this point on? I know it has to be hard making steps up then steps back. But you have fought a long and good fight. Now it seems that a lot is being uncovered and discovered between you two. Yet W doesn't seem to want to let go.

As for me and H, your post is enligthening. Yes, S and I need to have the boundaries talk. Thing is that I'm so mad right now (Gosh I felt weird like I wasn't suppose to say that), that I've got to get the anger out first.

Which brings me to your post awed thanks for the book recommend. It sounds like a "must have". I am looking into buying it now. I know there is more in my control and that I'm only responsible for me. I guess it is just a matter of understanding and settng boundaries then allwoing him to just decide.

I guess it just seems a hard obstacle to get over right now. A lot of my anger does stem from thngs that he does that are inconsiderate right now. But a great deal of it stems from the past. A sister of mine that dealt with this before told me that I would have problems with this later on and even when I least expected it. Now is just a matter of dealing with it.

Update:
Next plan
Holidng off on letter
Seeking book
Rereading the post from you guys, as they are very helpful to me
Trying to take this one day at a time.

Have a wonderful day, and as usual I'm wishing you both the best.

Awed,

So I both agree and disagree with your comments. Is that possible? Maybe I something is not getting through. Probably I just need to read the book and make up my own mind. More on this later.

Freetobe,

My W's slip 2 days ago and the conversations about NC and verification have left me very very confused and I am not doing a very good job of finding my way right now. On the one hand there are some very possitive things. She acknowledges the betrayal. She believes the path before her is in the M not w/ OM, she left her computer to avoid OM, she has been more engaged w/ me and is separating her own sadness from me (i think). On the other hand there was C since then, she says she will not lie to me about it anymore but does not say it will stop. She asserts her right to privacy, at the cost of hurting me. She cannot express commitment. I don't know if this is a stumble that I should expect and try to move past or something greater that will not change w/out plan B if at all. For now I'm hanging in there because some things are different.

Some commentary,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
As for me and H, your post is enligthening. Yes, S and I need to have the boundaries talk. Thing is that I'm so mad right now (Gosh I felt weird like I wasn't suppose to say that), that I've got to get the anger out first.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is nothing wrong with being angry. LBs are wrong, emotions are not. If you were not angry then you would not feel the need to have the boundaries talk. I guess this is where I begin to have a problem w/ the concepts awed has offered. It seems to me that it does not seem to acknowledge that at some point we will be angry. What is not OK is to LB back, this includes annoying behaviors like shouting or nagging. In this I agree it will not have the desired effect and if it does it will be 1) short term and 2) resented by both.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

"Having a desire for my S to make changes that can actually build a R in this M is to me very realistic."

...nothing wrong with your feelings. But it is not realistic. Take a look at the response to jgnc. You can change yourself. You can change your perceptions. You can set and enforce YOUR boundaries. You can change the dance and hence the interaction between the two of you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will also partially agree here. In regards to our communication, nagging shouting and other LBs never motivated me to make a real change so any change was to placate the LBing and hence not very permanent. When she changed her approach, and instead of LBing and finding a hotel room for the night she treated me w/ love and respect. It completely changed my perspective.

Is your desire realistic for your S to change realistic? I don't know. I cannot say that it isn't. If one sets a boundary and it is repeatedly crossed then change is necessary. Change may not occur, one can't control that, I agree. How one approachs their spouse can influence that but in the end it is up to ones spouse to do so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

"the bottom line is the greatest person I had ever known was suffering because of my behavior and I did not want to live like that any longer. "

...NO! Sorry to be so blunt -- she's suffering because that is her choice. I fell in this trap...lots of women do. And many of us have H that have A. And many of us have A ourselves.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this is where I disagree. In the context of what this was said in I was repeatedly crossing that boundary she had set. It was upsetting her and it needed to change. Her LBing wasn't motivating a change,true, but I had to change or face the consequences. The consequences then were A) living w/ the knowledge that I was hurting my spouse and B) possibly loosing her. I won't take responsibility for her LB but I will take responsibility for the effect of my actions on my W.

Maybe I'm seeing from a different perspective. I am a strong believer that people can change when they want to. I don't like approaches that put all of the responsibility on one person. Maybe I'm missing something. I hope I am. Perhaps it has its place when another won't change but even then I think that in the long term both spouses need to take ownership of how their actions affect the marriage and each other.

JGNC

Hi JGNC and awed

(From JGNC)

"On the other hand there was C since then, she says she will not lie to me about it anymore but does not say it will stop. She asserts her right to privacy, at the cost of hurting me. She cannot express commitment. I don't know if this is a stumble that I should expect and try to move past or something greater that will not change w/out plan B if at all. For now I'm hanging in there because some things are different."

Yes I know that strides are being made with you both. However W still seems maybe a little afraid or apprensive to let go. I guess I had a concern about how Dr Harley puts a time frame on how long to stay in Plan A.

I guess I've used to believe that all of the terms have to be done to the tee. But actually the concepts are indeed a guide and you have to decide what is best. It seems that now W is really beginning to make the changes that you had hoped for but they are mixed with setbacks. However nothing comes out a "perfect cake" in this world and indeed it takes time to work at things and deal with them. So I'm hoping for you that will work out and that your M will be completely restored.

You guys, I must confess that boundary setting has me in a tizzy. I guess I'm tabling the issue of boundary setting for the time. Instead I'm trying to focus on what is bothering me now. My H just feels that everything is just fine. He feels that if I had issues before this, why did we get M. I agree now that hindsight is 20/20.

However who thinks that they can do the things he did and that make the M perfect? Who can think that? More importantly how could I think that this would not be a major problem for me as time progressed. The problem I am having now is looking back trying to resolve the anger I feel against myself for accepting him back after all he did. So I guess a lot of my thought now is toward forgiving myself.

Well I'm sorting through this. and again rereading your post.

Whoa...I've just skimmed your message but I've got to post a quick reply immediately -- nowhere, nohow, am I suggesting you don't get mad! The whole point is that you do not, EVER, take your anger out on your spouse. Period.

I specifically mentioned (or thought I had <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) that that was why I was suggesting using the ERAP procedure...you MUST release these emotions before you can truly figure out how you want to respond, in a way the best advances your ultimate goal (ie. fulfilling M). And you definitely need to respond in some way to something that makes you mad -- even if the decision you make is just to let things sit for a while...then your reasoned, rational response is to wait.

Is that any clearer?

I'll read back in my post to see where everything became so muddy because that is not the impression I meant to leave with you!!!

One more point: I am NOT saying that people cannot change. The point is that YOU cannot change THEM. It is their choice, and their choice ONLY.

Taking this absolute truth one step further: As long as your underlying motivation is to change them, actions you take are likely to be unsuccessful.

JGNC: your W must make the choice herself to exit the A. Just like every other WS. However, you are doing Plan A to demonstrate how your M can be different...that you are willing to change...etc. You are not actually changing her but you are influencing her choice. The more you respect her choice, the likelier she is to change in the way you most want her to do so.

This reasoning runs counterintuitive to how most of us would respond (unguided) -- we'd yell or cry or make demands to END IT. Some WS might comply but in the short or long run, they'd likely go back to exactly the same behaviour (or perhaps better hidden).

If you are comfortable with using this approach to end the A, then the concepts Susan Page puts forth are merely an extension of that same approach in the rest of your M -- how the actions you take influence the decisions/choices made by your S. But it is always their option to change, not your role or right to change them.

Furthermore, life is 10% reality and 90% perception -- we are the ones in control of our own happiness.

Look...she wrote a book on it. I cannot do it justice in a few paragraphs...and she even says that she expects some of the stuff you read will piss you off! Precisely because everyone resists changing...

Especially those of us who feel we are right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...well, no problem. We may well be. I certainly think I am. So do I want to be right, or married?

Easy (or relatively so) to implement stuff when you are in crisis, when you have an external "enemy", when what your S is doing is so clearly wrong. To you and most of the rest of the world.

Different matter to change long-standing grievances between you, especially when your S is not willing to do the work, sees that you are critical of their behaviour, is in denial, etc. etc.

This of course is not a short post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But I hope it cleared up those major misunderstandings...I would hate for anyone else to read what I've written and think they shouldn't ever be mad! Or that their spouse cannot change...awed

Just had a very difficult discussion over the phone with her.

Most of it I have heard before, she is very angry at everyone that has ever caused her pain. She sees the M as having ruined her life. Wants me to let her go and help her start an independent life somewhere else. Does not believe she can ever be in a committed relationship and if she had not been depressed 3 years ago she would not have married.
Unless she gets into grad school then she may feel better about making a commitment (which would probably last until another difficulty in life came by). I wonder how she would comment if she read this... Probably she would think I was being horribly unfair to her.

It was very VERY difficult to not LB. I basically told her that these are her choices to make and not mine. It is for her to decide if she wants to stay married or go. I will do what I need to do to help her feel fulfilled in the M or I will help her move if that is what she wants. I love her and want her to be happy.

The only new piece of information is that she would be more receptive about us making a move together if I had not been such an ******* in the past when she first talked about wanting to leave. (her choice of words not mine).

Another bit that is ringing in my head from a conversation 2 days ago, is about what a violation it is for me to look at the contents of her computer.

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH! (wish I could just scream here at work).

Awed, I read and reread your posts and I think my response was based more on my perspective rather than your comments. I think that just a situation existing that requires unilateral action in a M is angering me right now. I went to Amazon and read the reviews of the book to get a different perspective. It sounds like a very interesting and useful book.

IC compared me today to a frog in a boiling pot. The temperature has increased so gradually that I don't see that I am about to boil to death.

Plan B? I don't know. At my ICs advice I did not expose to OMW but now I think I should regardless of what devistation it may cause between us. It may even end the A but it will not address her refusal to implement NC or to allow for verification, At this point it seems moot to even talk about this.

Hi JGNC

I am sorry to hear about how W feels because I know you wanted her to avoid going down this road. From your post you know, that she knows that the M is best for her. But unfortunately she is choosing another route.

I feel to some degree she is making excuses about feeling that she can't be happy in a R with anyone. Maybe she isn't ready to decide that she can with you though it means that she will have to dig in and try harder.

However this would require much more of her. And really until she deals with whatever is holding her back, whether it be the depression, fear, selfishness, anger and upset or whatever else she is probably right that she can't be in a R with anyone.

I am concerned for you. I think you gave her the good response in that you've hung in there long and hard through a lot with her. So I do agree it is perhaps best to help her become more independent outside of the marriage. But how do you feel? Are you ready to allow yourself the much needed rest from this situation that awed talked about if you go to Plan B? Are you ready to allow her to reap the consequences of her actions? Or do you fear that you have to hold on? Are you ready to accept that she may not want to give definite answers about NC and other things because she needs to see for herself that you and your M is what she wants and needs? That she maybe making these choices because she may not want to commit?

Someone told me something when I first found out that my S or boyfriend at the time was cheating on me. If your loved one has made the choice to cheat on you or to go against what is right for you both you have to believe that they believe they are making the best decision for themselves. Though you may know that this isn't true and everything within you protest what they have decided, they believe different. So at that point it is up to you to accept that because ultimately it is their decision.

Are you willing to accept that this is what at this time she feels is best for her? I do believe if I had heeded that word of wisdom I wouldn't be handling my M in the backwards fashion that I am now. My H definitely needed to see the consequences of his actions. Also he needed to learn on his own that our R was best for him. But for me I needed to believe that I was what was best with confidence and hopefully show him this and not in desperation and fear.

Now I am at having to try to show him what he should've learned himself and also what I deserved to allow him to show me (that he had changed). But anywho, such is the case.


JGNC I have seen a post on this site about doing a long term Plan A. Now this goes against what Dr Harley says. And to be honest it may encourage enabling the OP to continue in their behaviors. But I read I long post on this board about it and this lady talked about how she tried everything with her H and it didn't work until she let him go. She let him leave her for the OW and she showed him by changing her behaviors that she was what he wanted. I will seek out this post if your are interested. Let me know.

I know right now may be very difficult for you. Nothing very good and nothing very bad last for very long-- And whatever you decide myself and awed are rooting for you.