edited this post. ranting and raving.

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

<small>[ February 20, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

Makes a lot of sense. Learning about yourself and dropping judgement makes sense. If it is true that we teach others how to treat us then both you and I can teach our spouses to treat us better.

Have a good weekend as well.

Kinda coming down w/ something here but hopefully it wont ruin the weekend for me.

BTW I have a little more peace today, as a result of a long conversation last night. I don't where it will go but at least I am more calm and understanding today. My W has some serious trust and anger issues that she needs to address again. I just hope she realizes she may need help to do it.

Hi JGNC and Awed

I hope you feel better J.

Yes maybe we both can teach our S to treat us better. I'm really hoping so.

J I have a question.

"BTW I have a little more peace today, as a result of a long conversation last night."

If I may ask what caused you to feel at peace? Not that I'm looking for details. I'm just wondering if it was her reaction to your conversation that made you feel at peace or just that you felt peace because you got your point across (I mean if you did)?

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

well feeling more peace is a different than feeling at peace. :|

The conversation started very angry and disrespectful which unfortunately I reciprocated. I suppose what made me feel more calm was that instead of just tearing into me she began to talk about why she felt so angry, resentful and untrusting towards me, actually everyone. I was able to tell her many things that I have been holding back. It wasn't an easy conversation but it was an honest conversation. Nothing was resolved but I guess it felt right that I was able to get things of off my chest, like how much she LBs and know that she listened to me rather than getting the usual entitlement talk.

I am still stuck on NC and accountability. Although she does not think that he will write her back, she still seems to feel entitled to maintain occasional contact and sees accountability as a violation of her right to privacy. These conversations we have always seem to make me feel like there is progress but I don't see how we can truly make progress w/out NC and accountability. So I'm stuck. Is plan B appropriate if there isn't C but there is also no commitment to NC?

Still confused,
J

(Quotes by J in bold)

"I suppose what made me feel more calm was that instead of just tearing into me she began to talk about why she felt so angry, resentful and untrusting towards me, actually everyone. "I was able to tell her many things that I have been holding back.

Gosh I know it had to feel good being able to get your point across. And especially with W listening and not ripping you up. Do you feel that she lumps her feelings about other people and you in the same category? Or do you think that she sees you seperately? As the one who is different than everyone else, that loves her differently or with a different type of love?

"well feeling more peace is a different than feeling at peace. "

So at the time you felt better but you still feel upset about everything that is going on or just not quite satisfied with everything that is going on?

I'm asking for myself. I'm really trying to understand some things? Ok for me I am finding that I am angry many times about S and am not at peace. I guess I wish that I could find a way to be content regardless of what he does but this just doesn't seem to be happening. So I wonder is it really realistic to expect to not ride the emotional rollercoaster when you are trying to have discussions with S and make negotiations?

As the BS, you are dealing with people that practically do what they want. I'm finding it hard for me to committ to one thing and S to do as he pleases.

"I am still stuck on NC and accountability." "Although she does not think that he will write her back, she still seems to feel entitled to maintain occasional contact and sees accountability as a violation of her right to privacy."

This one maybe a toughy. Dr Harley talks about
WS being so addicted to OP that they won't stop NC.

In my life, now that the A is over I am finding it difficult to reconcile with the past about this one. My H never stopped NC no matter how many times we talked about it and why I thouhgt it was important.

So why did I take him back?

I think I was in a fog and taken over by an alien <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . To be very honest, this goes back to what I posted about how my decision making wasn't so good. I also talked about how I didn't want the OW to have H.

Well it wasn't all about that entirely. I cared about him, but also we have a son together and really I wanted us to raise him TOGETHER. We have history together and so on. This had been at the forefront my thinking that caused me to try to hang in there everytime I thought about leaving.

Though my H's actions warranted my leaving. I didn't. My H would tell me that OW would keep calling and coming around and he couldn't stop her. He would act as if it was up to her to stop NC. He acted as if he was powerless to stop.
I'd tell him if he wants to stop talking to her that we can work on it together. He would make excuses about how he didn't want to hurt her feelings.

Why did I listen to his BS? I don't know. To be honest I feel I enabled him. He thought I would always be around because Hey, I put up with this much right? And my arriving at this wasn't from what he said but what he did.

But for me, I was all about saving the R. Now I'm not faulting anyone for this decision because it was my decision to make. FOr me, it really hadn't registered that still I needed to allow this A to play out and then if my H wanted to be a man and wanted to prove it to me then I should've taken him back then and only then.

So not that I want to seem pessimistic but I do think that one can become sidetracked (as I was) so much with saving the M or R to the point that they miss not only what they can do for their S but also what they can do for themselves. For you, not that I am encouraging selfishness but when you look back at this you are accepting a lot from W right now. Though she is making some changes, she is to some degree holding on to things that prevent a sure reconciliation.

So for you, what do you want for yourself? I just say from what I am learnng now after the A is over, that you try to make sure in your heart you are doing what is best for you too. I think it is redhat that talks about looking back after 10 years with no regrets in his signature. When you look back what would you like to see?

I guess I'm trying to say that saving the M isn't all about the WS only. It is about saving you too. Doing what is best for you too.

I hope that made sense and wasn't a ramble as sometimes I slip into that.

"Is plan B appropriate if there isn't C but there is also no commitment to NC?"

From what I understand Plan B is no contact with WS because WS is in ongoing abuse of the R or M after you have tried to negotiate NC and haven't been successful. So Plan B is another effort to stop the A. With hopefully WS deciding to discontinue C with WS. So BS leaves letter with WS explaining conditions for return or reconciliation. Agreement for NC would be one of the terms spelled out in the Plan B letter as a condition for return.

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

Second reply. Boy they both are long.

J, I just thought about something else also. You explained that W may see NC and accountability as forms of control. I believe that my S did also. Perhaps it might help her to understand that this isn't about controlling her but are about accepting an agreed upon element of marriage which is committment to vows that make you both secure in the M. So you protect each other's interest in the M. She isn't alone in this because you too agree to certain inconviences in order to uphold committment to the M.

I think my H sees things this way also. Many times he baffles me because I can't see why he can't see this as clearly as I can. Sometimes I think he wants me to be loose and ignore him and cold and treat him meanly as I did before to get my point across. But I don't want to perpetuate foolish behaviors.

Anyway, I think that the next problem with this view is that S just may feel that she really isn't willing to go against what she feels is more important for her preservation than what is for the common good of the M. Which brings you back to the same complication, W's decision.

update:

Over the past few days I've been trying to do more introspection. Weekend a little rocky. Some upset between S and I. I am at the point where I really want to be heard and that is that.

I gave S a letter because talks haven't been so smooth. It is like it was totally ignored. Anyway, we all have choices. This goes back to boundary setting. Things were rocky because of some choices we both are making. I really don't want resentment to take hold but also I don't want to compromise my postition. So do I want to be right or do I want to be married? I guess I want both.

Anywho, I am looking to order book from the net this weekend. I hope to not post so much about just "us" in the future I would like to talk about my life also. But I get tied up in us. Anyhow the weekend climate was really prety. Lots of sunshine. Did a few things not too big. Kind of a moderate weekend. What about you guys? What was your weather like and did you do anything fun?

<small>[ February 24, 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you feel that she lumps her feelings about other people and you in the same category? Or do you think that she sees you seperately? As the one who is different than everyone else, that loves her differently or with a different type of love?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes I'm just another jerk who hurt he, sometimes I'm the only one who has really cared. Depends on her emotional state.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So at the time you felt better but you still feel upset about everything that is going on or just not quite satisfied with everything that is going on?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel better but still feel upset sometimes. The conversation gave me a sense that there is hope. I will not be satisfied until NC. Yesterday she asked me if I will ever feel OK about us. My answer was that while OM was still in the picture.. No.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I wonder is it really realistic to expect to not ride the emotional rollercoaster when you are trying to have discussions with S and make negotiations?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think/hope the book Awed recommended will help. It sounds like it is similar to doing a good Plan A. You set change your perspective your approach and hope that he changes as well. I

Hi guys. Up early today getting a start on my morning. First of all, because I have come to realize that working on my M is a process I will make some post in detail and they may sound a little like journal writing and sometimes a little repetitive. Forgive me if so and bring it to my attention.

I'm hoping, I guess to note how things are happening in this process as well as share and gain knowledge from the 2 of you and give some also.

Secondly, I have been examining the motive behind some of the choices I made re: my M. I hope to understand what was happening at the time as well as understand what effected my thoughts. My hope is to get a handle on the state of being that maybe caused tunnel vision, which made for an environment conducive to being in a type of fog.

It seemed that while the A was going on I was too busy thinking of it to really see clearly what was going on. Now I guess I'm doing something that perhaps would've helped to do early on. Yet I appreciate what is happening now and the discoveries that are coming to the forefront.

Thirdly, I was holding some upset with S because of little episode over the weekend. I'm seeing that this is totally useless and now trying to let go of anger. Trying to understand S standpoint and mine for that matter. I realize that it would help for me to change my perspective greatly.

Well I'm out of here for now. Hope your day is nice. Have a good one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It seemed that while the A was going on I was too busy thinking of it to really see clearly what was going on. Now I guess I'm doing something that perhaps would've helped to do early on. Yet I appreciate what is happening now and the discoveries that are coming to the forefront.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know exactly what you mean. I think we get so wrapped up in trying to save the R that we ignore what is going on with ourselves. Perhaps not even letting what has hapened sink in. I think its normal, I mean our brains can only handle so much at a time.

So I have an update.

Yesterday W&I spent a looong time talking about NC and accountability. After a couple of hours we were still getting nowhere. She can't commit, can't abide by accountability, not sure if she wants M. We even talked about me contacting OM or OMW. She fears that he may retaliate in some way against her if OMW found out. We finally decided to stop and have a nice dinner together.

During dinner she surprised me by telling me that she could commit to me and working on the M <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I all I could do was thank her. She will make a commitment to me and block his e.mail accounts, the one sticking point is that she asserts her need for privacy. I want to say and feel that this is a good thing but I can't help wonder if I am being decieved again.

Freetobe, Awed,

well, if you read my other posts, you know that I'm dealing with a lot of anger right now and that I contacted OM.

Everything feels like it is falling apart right now. Because I contacted OM C will likely stop but I'm angry that she did not choose to end it herself. Maybe I was hoping for too much.

I find myself questioning everything (including M). I'm angry that I have to look after her feelings and tired of constantly sacrificing my feelings for her. I look at our 9 yrs together and see that I have let myself become less than a whole person to appease her temper and depression. it is going to be a long time before I feel ok about myself or M.

I hope that I am just taking a hard stumble right now and that all will seem better later.

I hope you guys are doing well.
J.

ah buddy...so sorry to hear this...anger is NOT the path my friend...I have wanted to write to you several times in the past couple of weeks but I have been so overburdened myself...

This is what I was worried about several weeks back...I could sense that it really was time for you to go to Plan B...

I saw so many hopefuls though in your most recent posts and wanted to urge you to hang in for a bit longer...truly hopeful stuff!...I started the post the other day and then...of course...didn't finish it...

I am a poopy supporter right now...my apologies to you...(good thing freetobe has been back in spades! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Please please please...you need to calm down and think rationally...wait 3 days before you take any action again...truly...I know you are at the end of your tether...but now is the worst time to throw in the towel...you may well be on the cusp of change...if not, then you can go to Plan B...

Is there anyone you can yell at? I'm perfectly serious...my mom has taken lots of crap from me...not yelling at her, but being angry in front of her (on the phone)...venting with another person there...it helps immensely...

Why am I still suggesting Plan B? because you are angry...which tells me that you still love her -- you are simply truly hurt by her actions...

But then, she is ill on top of delusional...

Okay -- to the specifics: of course she is going to want to keep him in the loop!...they pretty much ALL do...that is where the time and patience will do its work...as long as you do NOT give in to anger...do NOT LB...

This is your life bud...don't give in to regret...live it with your head held high...the feelings will go as she makes her choices that you do not want her to make...you will know when it is time for you to end the fight...okay? Take it from me: you're not there yet...if you quit now, there is a good likelihood that decision will eat away at you (regret)...I've actually seen this in action too...it happened with my parents -- I watched my dad never get over the loss of his wife (he was extremely angry) while my mom never looked back (calm and rational decision made over many many years)...

I suggested that book for a very good reason...the exercises help you to see how to stop trying to change her...it will only ever lead to anger...

She must make the choice...this is NOT what you (or freetobe or I) want to hear...but it is simple reality...until you let go of any notion that you can change her, you will keep banging your head against the wall (or regret banging your head against the wall)...

Let the scenario play out...I KNOW it feels like having teeth pulled without anaesthetic...that's why the only way to maintain sanity is to be with other people and give yourself headspace from thinking about the A...get out of the situation both physically and mentally whenever you can...with people who will affirm your self-worth...

You told me before this was not possible...MAKE it possible...

I am being very direct with you...I feel your urgency and cannot spend the time being more suggestive and/or using your words to demonstrate why this analysis of your heart comes across to me so clearly...

I am a long way ahead of you and still know exactly how you feel...does that give you any sense of how long this process takes?

My mom reminded me: this was my choice to try to save the M rather than just walk away...that's why I need to see it out now...don't change your mind because of anger...it is not your real mind, just like the decisions your W are making are not from her real mind...they are decisions made in a fog...

Write back...argue with me...just don't stop now...let's see if we can get you over the hump...

BTW: do you understand how to enforce boundaries? My counsellor (yes...I am back seeing one) just explained it to me this week...it's quite different from the general impression often given here on this site...it does not involve you forcing your W into any action whatsoever...

Hang in there...a big hug to you (sorry if you are not a huggy person...hugs help ease the loneliness though...try it in person, with a "safe" person of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )...awed

<small>[ February 26, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

I'm ok for now. W and I talked today although no real progress was made she tried to help me over the anger.

W is dealing w/ guilt and shame but still no actions. I'm angry but I don't hate her, I still know the difference. I'm not walking out on my marriage but I do wish I could find a cave to crawl into and purge these feelings. I do mean what I said about feeling like less that a full person, those feelings have old roots, rooted back to childhood.

I have a letter, it basically restates the letter I sent before, need NC letter, need accountability. It seems silly because after contacting OM I don't think there is much chance that he or she will try to contact each other. Its a matter of respect now I had to end contact between them (though if they really wanted to they could still try) now I want her to do something that shows she really means it when she says she wants to committ.

I can't say she's delusional or has ever been, just sad, lonely and pretty desparate. I really think that she had been trying to stop contact but has not been strong enough. She even told me that at one point a few months ago she really wanted me to contact OM or OMW. I guess I should have listened to everyone here. I didn't because I did not want to deal w/ her anger again and because of pride. I wanted her to end the EA. In fact one of the things I am angry about now is just that, that I had to end it rather than her by her choice.

tell me about enforcing boundaries, skill I never picked up in life.

<small>[ February 27, 2004, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: jgnc ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm angry but I don't hate her </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no, I don't think you hate her either...but even if YOU thought you did, that is still love and entanglement...when you get beyond it, it will be indifference...that's why anger is such a clear indication that you still care, there is still hope, there is still a reason to keep on trying...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't say she's delusional or has ever been </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yeah well...I was misusing the word...I didn't intend it in the clinical sense...but of course she's "delusional" in the same sense that every other WS is...she is fooling herself...OM's likely fooling himself too...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I really think that she had been trying to stop contact but has not been strong enough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her intent is what you need to focus on...she is trying...acknowledge and celebrate her intent...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess I should have listened to everyone here. I didn't because I did not want to deal w/ her anger again and because of pride . I wanted her to end the EA. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is your issue to deal with, as it is mine. There is no room for pride here...perhaps this is our lesson to learn!

Are you religious? Do you have spiritual beliefs? Even if you don't, you can take a purely intellectual approach to this -- this hell you are going through is an opportunity to learn and achieve significant personal growth. You've seen some of the inspirational quotes about this I am sure...as in one door closing is another one opening...

And here's the rub: if we don't learn, we are doomed to make the same mistakes again! So how about if we learn instead? Want to keep walking the path with me? Take something positive away from all this pain and anguish?

Following is a summary of my conversation with the counsellor about boundaries. My question: I've set the boundary, and I understand fully that it is mine to enforce. So I don't wail about him breaking it (ie. it is not his boundary, it is mine), nor do I punish (ie. withdraw) or threaten (ie. I will leave you if you do this again).

So what's the outcome? I don't understand -- if there are not any consequences for him breaking the boundary, what recourse do I have?

Note: I am not talking about a boundary with a firm consequence -- ie. if he starts the A again, I will leave him, period. I am talking about boundaries that are fuzzier...boundaries that if crossed, are going to reduce my love for him.

And she said...when he crosses the boundary, you tell him. That's it, that's all. Just like during Plan A and all the communication techniques we learned at that point. You tell him what action has concerned you (ie. what boundary was crossed) and how you feel about it.

Lightbulb moment: simple and incredibly scary. So he may well continue to cross the boundary. And I may continue to share with him how this makes me feel. And if he continues to do it, then it will continue to drain my love for him. And eventually...the M will be over. Scary scary stuff.

I think our situations (yours and mine) have a lot in common. My H is going through a MLC. Conversations with him can be really hard. He may shutdown completely...he may go over the top in anger. Or he may quietly and thoughtfully listen to what I say. I just never know which person I'll be conversing with.

In addition, as a complicating measure...he may forget all about our conversation, or warp it into something else later on. So the good that can come out of it may well morph into something negative over a period of time.

Patience, time, love. That is what I can give him. Looking after myself, continuing to detach from his choices, even when they are extremely painful for me. Knowing that his choices are not necessarily the same as mine, and that they are affecting the love I feel for him. All very very painful. Actually witnessing your love for someone diminish while you feel like you are standing back and not doing anything...heartbreaking.

Truthfully, it is harder now than it was during the A. He was so good for a long while in recovery which makes this recent slippage agony. I had my H back and he's lost again. In a snap of the fingers too.

Time, patience, love. And...once again...acceptance that our story may not end the way I had hoped it would, the way it seemed to everyone else that it was going to, the way that -- oddly enough -- even he would like to see it happen.

But he has to make the choice -- it is his life and he will live fully with the consequences.

My advice to you, what I have been living recently after the loss of my incredibly loving, sweet, sexy H into a cold, indifferent, physically removed roomate (who still loves to talk to me though!): celebrate what you can J...celebrate every single moment of clarity...celebrate that she tries to help you with your anger...celebrate that she comes to you instead of writing to OM...celebrate her each and every effort to resist contacting him....consider this: for each battle she fails, she's likely won a whole bunch that you don't know about.

Of course we want our WS to finally realize their mistake and cleave only onto us forever! I thought mine had. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But the guilt they must face inside themselves in order to do this, deep-down...it is immense. It is staggering...it is their crux of personal growth and lots of people will not be brave enough to do it...in the end, will not be brave enough to face their own culpability, brave enough to dig deep enough to make the personal change that must follow such a realization.

Look how hard it is for us to do this...and we are not facing self-disgust...the one thing we do not face in this crazy time of life...

Of course we hope our S will be one of the brave ones...of course we hope that we've given them enough incentive to do it...

We have. It is still their choice.

Believe me on this one! The OW in my situation is an appalling woman, a sexual predator, fat, ugly, obnoxious and a drunk to boot. Doesn't she sound a treat??? My H has NO support from anyone anywhere for being in that relationship in the first place. He was never in love with her, clearly saw that himself, ended the A immediately on d-day, did everything right with me vis-a-vis recovery.

And yet, he is moving back into fantasy-land. The lure is unbelievable. If it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone (ie. situations where the OP is not a real scumbag, if there were genuine feelings of love, greater attraction/sex/companionship, etc.).

I don't know if that helps or hurts for you to hear my story. I normally will not post a negative. But I feel incredibly compelled to do so with you because sometimes if you hear someone else's story you get a picture into the sameness of it all and that can obscurely comfort you...there is no rushing this process...it will take as long as it takes...

It is NOT fair... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

And that is why I continue to suggest the same old solutions to you...because they really are the ones that work...

Be loving, caring and supportive...praise every good action, ignore the bad (unless they cross clearly established boundaries)...leave her to work things out...discuss her feelings if you can...work out your anger elsewhere...actively, consistently seek affirmation elsewhere...lean on your support network, it is why they are there for you...we are here for you...

And take heart from this cold, bitter thought...if you leave her now, you won't feel any better. Not in the short term. And you very well may regret it bitterly. And truly have something to reproach yourself with.

BTW: one last thought at the end of a very long post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...consider the conditions imposed under Plan B. Look at the differences...if the WS ends the A when the BS is in Plan B, look at the recommendations vis-a-vis boundaries. They are much firmer, there is far less goodwill. The changes must be demonstrated not simply the "potential for" that happens when the A ends under Plan A.

Write back if you feel like it...take good care of yourself, no matter what...awed

P.S.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do mean what I said about feeling like less that a full person, those feelings have old roots , rooted back to childhood.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So do I...get the darn book J <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...or at least have a look at it...it is helping me to readjust my attitude about "entitlement"...change it to "expectation", and sort through which ones I will fight for, and which ones I will simply let go...

J...I have grown immensely as a person through this process. Modesty aside <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , people loved and deeply respected me as a well-rounded, well-balanced person prior to this. Yet people have commented on how much I have changed. I am finding inner peace, that's why. I didn't even know I didn't have it before...but I didn't because I was unhappy in my M and did nothing about it. That is solely my problem not his, and I am doing everything I can to rectify it forevermore.

Early on in Plan A, I determined that I am responsible for my own happiness and he's responsible for his own choices. But I found the book helped me realize I still have work to do...to let my H go completely...to do it with great loving kindness, not revert to anger and implied threats of loss.

I am telling you this because I never had any problem enforcing boundaries in my M before...I am learning a new way to do so now, learning a new and lasting behaviour on my part...this is always tough to do....we all experience slippages you see...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I look at our 9 yrs together and see that I have let myself become less than a whole person to appease her temper and depression. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As part of your self-exploration, you may well decide to end the M...but you can only do this over time, with calm reflection...

Hope all this stuff helps J...

pride... yeah. I can think back to everytime I have been this angry at someone in my life and I can say that almost everytime it has been a case where I feel I have given and given and hoped that the other person would give back or make some change and did not. This anger, its moving from giver mode to taker mode. I finally realize that I do not deserve to be treated that way and I am angry that I ever gave to someone that would treat me that way. Like I said long history, going back well before the M. Maybe what I need to do is stop hoping for change.

But accountability is not one of those fuzzy boundaries. Yes I could live withhout it and an NC letter. Especially since there will likely be no contact and she sounds sincere in her comitment. But I've been hurt so much, I really want her to prove it. I also think that if I let it go it will be yet another invitation to walk all over me again. Again pride or maybe just self-respect.

I am very sorry that your husband is slipping again. I do see many similarities. I will follow your recommendations ( be prepared to hear from me when it seems to hard to do).

I will be praying for my M and for you and freetobe as well.

Take care,

Jorge

Awed,

I would like to tell you how much touching your post to J was. It says exactly what I have been going through in the last several weeks.

My kids and all my close friends, family, etc. have commented on how I have an inner glow and I seem so confident and complete now. As you I had given everything in me to trying to make my marriage work. In the long run my kids and friendships had suffered. My husband has been very verbally abusive since he left ( and before) and he has definitely drained our love bank completely.

I have started seeing someone, because I married VERY young and have been a very subservient spouse for 18 years I needed to know what I true give and take relationship was like. I have no intentions of making this a relationship but have had alot of fun, being treated like a woman and paid attention to. It has helped me understand what I have missed out on all these years and what i want from my marriage if we ever get it back. My husband is on a road to destructiion and I have decided I have given all of myself and as much as I possibly can to him. It is completely up to him now to come out of the fog and realize that this OW has to go and decide if he wants to be married to me again. If he does it will have to be a new marriage to me. Start from the beginning and use the MB plan because I realize now how badly I was a doormat through the entire marriage and I will never do that again.

Sorry I got on my soap box!

Resaann

Awed freetobe or anyone,

I don't know if I'm giving up or just tired or what. Dealing with the realities of the past week has been hard. On top of everything I've mentioned here about the end of EA a W's attitudes things have gone pretty badly at work and now find myself in a situation where I have to get things turn around quick (like 2mo) or look for other work. Finding other work would be very hard to do. Loosing work right now would have some severe consequences. Take that and top it w/ EA issues and W's usual depression/anger and it is getting to be too much. I can't concentrate enough on one thing to do it well (M or work). I am really regretting not going into plan B when you recommended it. Now w/ the A over, as far as I can tell, I don't know what my options are.

We've been talking about her going down to her fathers for a month to pursue some personal goals. She wants to do this at the earliest in May after our anniversary in April but prefers to go in June. Because of the way I'm feeling I'm really thinking of asking her to go as soon as possible, Mid-March maybe. If I have any concern it is that we won't miss each other. My instincts are to protect myself right now. I don't know if any of this is a good idea or not.

help apprciated,
J.

Hey J,

So sorry to hear this. Are you spending a lot of time thinking about the M? Could you give yourself a break in which to concentrate on work instead? Sometimes a breather will help!

I don't know about being apart though...I wonder if that will just mean contact starts again? She'll be vulnerable.

Have you tried talking to her about this issue? That you really need to concentrate on work for the next while? Is she supportive of your work?

Give it a few days. Don't think about it and then come back and see if you feel differently.

Going to Plan B just when she's ended the A does not feel right to me. I've never seen someone else suggest it.

Hang in there...you are tough...repeat after me: I will make it! awed

thank you for your reply. I know you have your own things to deal with.

I completely blew up tonight. I've spent all day at work unable to concentrate even though I know how much I need to focus. All of the anger just came pouring out tonight. W thinks I'm self destructing and she's right. I feel like I've entered survival mode and even she commented on it. Like I need to focus on just one thing if I'm ever going to save all of this. Losing the job would be very bad. I think I would lose everything then, probably even her. We talked about separating. She says that after what she did, she will leave if I ask her, I don't know if I want her to go or not. I definately don't want to kill the M. It just seems like it may be easier to just deal w/ work right now. Then it would be a safer more supportive environment for her when she returned. I think we are both a little scared of separating, even for a month or 2. She's concerned about me being alone, I'm concerned we won't miss each other. What other recourse do we have?????

No problem J...I've been overwhelmed with deadlines...this is my busy time of year plus I decided to apply for a graduate program and needed to find a big chunk of time (out of thin air???) to complete the applications process (done yesterday).

I'll keep on popping in though to check on you.

Can you see a MC right away? Your W is worried and scared and so are you...separation may entrench things you don't to have entrenched...you are at a fragile state in your M right now...

A MC might be able to give you good guidance...saving yourself is #1 but anger is not a good basis for decision-making...get professional help.

I suggest MC rather than IC because it is important that you both be part of the discussion and that you both be part of the solution.

Make sense? Any thoughts? awed