Hi free...we were posting at the same time which I saw when my post came up on screen...so I've just popped back in to say...perkier is a word! And you're right...maybe spring is coming??? Nah, it really is all the other stuff I mentioned...

Domestic engineer! I could get you to teach me a thing or two for sure...my domestics are falling apart about now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have many interest so I'm working in the area of assessing my aptitudes that would benefit me best toward a particular field.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you...let us know what you come up with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> .

To clarify starting over, I guess I mean taking the time to actually date again, learning to talk and communicate with each (something that is very minited between us), learning not to lean toward each other selfishly. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How's he feel about it? Most guys don't seem that interested in the R, you know? It's more "our" thing.

But you never know until you try!

Have you read the book I recommended yet? Checked it out? It may help you want to be with your H more than you did. To appreciate what it was that drew you to him initially.

Have a great weekend. I kind of remember those things <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...not this one though...lots of work and popping into here to take a quick writing break...not that I'm not writing right at this moment, but it is not technical writing...I need a breather for my brain every once in a while...awed

Hi awed and J

You guys I just made this long post here and the system wouldn't take it. So I'm starting over.
How are you 2 dong and how was your weekend?

J, how's the map coming along? I've done that forget to pay a bill thing too. Felt like I was in the twilight zone. I know you were having a tough time but it seemed to be getting better. Hope to hear from you.

awed thanks for your post. Yes the "what ifs' had been holding me back. WHile I don't want to focus on them I recognize that my H needs to show me he is a different person.

I can't seem to come at him directly and tell him this so I'm having to go the long way around to get at him. So I'm doing that. I'm not putting my life on hold. I am definitely moving ahead and I hope he realizes this.

You guys I had a bright, sunshine, Southern girl weekend. I love the sun. Speaking of that I felt much better this weekend than I have in some time.

My H, my little guy ( my son) and I had a nice time also. H & I had a few close moments. We've been away from each other for a while so we came back togethr this weekend. I think the seperation was a nice breather. I was getting to where I didn't want to be around him.

The flashbacks were causing me to want vengeance. But some time way helped.

awed you gave a comment that I know you meant no personal harm to me by noting it. But Oh, it rubbed me the wrong way. So I had to deal with why I felt so angry about it. Here it is:

"Most guys don't seem that interested in the R, you know? It's more "our" thing."

I identify with this comment because I feel that my H doesn't seem to need this, or let's say he wants it but is somewhat short at giving it. Which takes points and defintiely love deposits away from him when he comes to me and wants SF but doesn't want intimacy and R. I can't deal with that. I expressed this to him and it was like talking to a 1 year old.

Well the thing is that for me I feel that it is a part of building a healthy R. SF isn't everything in the world. When you don't want it there has to be something in the M that holds the 2 of you together. Otherwise someone else always has to sacrifice. That person usually being me.

I see R as intimacy. Learning to understand each other, feeling for each other, caring. For my H he understands this at its most basic element. But he doesn't understand that it is in the htings that you say and do and how you treat a person. I mean with giving compliments and little kisses and cuddle time and things like that. If he doesn't see the need for these things then there is no difference between me and the common "lady of the evening" except I don't charge for it. Perhaps I should.

I have fears of being taken for granted and giving a man the upper hand over me. So as of now we are at a standstill when it comes to SF. I feel that it has to be at my own terms and I have to control when and how it happens. Sometimes I feel that I have to make myself inacessible so that I'm not taken for granted.

This is why I felt that maybe we should seperate and start over so that I could lay down ground rules for what I expect. Before when I was a part of SF I felt I gave myself willingly and he still overlooked me for the OW. Now he sees it as me rejecting him but he fails to see that he hurt me and used me when he had the chance to show me he loved me but he chose her.

So now I don't know. I feel we definitely need R and intimacy. If I have to face a life of going without it then I think that being single and fancy free is much more appealing than letting someone take you for granted.

But awed maybe I've misunderstanding him and maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment. Please help I'm open to listening/reading.

Have a good day and take care guys.

<small>[ March 08, 2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

just realized there was post from Awed I never read.

I hear you about regret. completely.

This weekend..
Got to do some miniature painting, worked on the map/mural, went to church
Met a friends fiancee and had a grueling 30 mile bike ride w/ W and a friend. So yeah, I suppose we had a good weekend. Still some sadness mostly from W, lots of talking, which is good.

Didn't get to do some important stuff at home unfortunately. I need to start making detailed plans for the weekends so that we don't overcomit ourselves.

OH, Dr. put me on lexapro <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Most days I don't think I need it but I can't put work at further risk for pride's sake

Awed,

Sounds like a great degree. Looking at your posts here, I can see how you would excel at it.

I won't be getting a dog yet. Not until we both agree to it. At least for now W would have to deal with it most of the time since she is at home. Plus there's the cat issue.

You are really keeping yourself active. How is Kung-Fu? The only thing I miss about Dallas is the kung-fu school I attended for 6 months.

I read and reread your post about not putting life on hold for someone else and one thing I just could not shake. It seemed to me that you are preparing for the end of your M. I think that may be part of the reason why I cannot seem to put all my effort into what I want for myself, because what I most want is the M. I know I need to be ok on my own and prove to myself that I will be fine with or without her. I don't know, putting all of that effort into myself would not leave much time for her. Meeting her EN's are how I can strenghten her love for me, working on myself and my pursuits is how a keep myself sane. Seems like quite a balancing act.

Freetobe,

I think starting over is a good thing. Infact the thought I think crystallizes some of my W's feelings. I will echo Awed's question, how does he feel about it? I think to many people, men especially (myself included) view marriage as an end rather than a beginning. We feel that we achieved the prize and then as a result we neglect the M. So we feel that we need to start over, when in truth we never should have stopped.

I don't think that witholding meeting an EN to have your own EN's met will work. He will feel rejected because, well, you are rejecting him. First its punishment (LB), second it is a subtle DJ, it sends the message, you are not good enough and I will not share myself with you. I do understand your fears of being taken for granted. The situation as it exists is wrong, I just don't know if this is going to get you what you want.

It seems that you are presenting it as in order for SF to be met he must meet Affection. Can you separate affection from SF in your conversations? What I mean is to say to him "in order to feel loved and cherished by you I need this type of affection. Incidentaly it will improve SF." But not in my clumsy words. Anyway just my clumsy male perspective.

Well you take care as well,

J

I'm feeling pretty good today. As opposed to yesterday evening, ugh. I've been doing some thinking today and started jotting down somethings. Now that the A is over I'm thinking a lot of where I am myself. Tired, depressed, underconfident. Today I'm thinking of what will get me back on my feet. I figured I would share.

The changes that I am making in my life are for myself. As I recover from the affair I have found things about myself that I need to change. This is for me, not for her.

For her, because I love her, I will make all changes necessary to meet her emotional needs.

I will not take on the responsibility for her pain & suffering. Only she can deal with it. I can support her but she has to take responsibility herself.

I will not allow her emotions to control mine. I will be responsive but I will not own them.

I will not allow her to tell me what is best for me.

I will expect my emotional needs to be met. Having them not met will not result in ignoring her needs or LBs, however, this will result is diminished love for her.

I will pratice radical honesty

I will always strive to agree on all decisions, even when it is difficult

I will make good use of our time together.

J.

I hope you are both doing well.

Hi J and awed.

I made a post in here earlier or so I thought. Feeling a little twilight zony that it isn't showing here. Oh well.

(Quotes by J in bold)

"Now that the A is over I'm thinking a lot of where I am myself. Tired, depressed, underconfident. Today I'm thinking of what will get me back on my feet. I figured I would share."

Oh boy do I identify with this one. Felt this way a great deal. I think I felt it while the A was going on but couldn't allow myself to slow down enough until after the A. Now I'm trying to repair myself in the process of dealing with
the M.

"For her, because I love her, I will make all changes necessary to meet her emotional needs."

That really sounds great. How willing does W seem to allow you to do so?

BTW, you and I are in opposite positions. This is exactly what I'd like my H to do for me. Granted some of my ENs are higher on the ladder than others, I guess I wish that he would be more attentive. Because the OW did this for him, somehow I think he would like for me to pursue him as she did. That seemed to appeal to him. But I would like for both of us to pursue each other. I think this is going to be the hard part.

"I will not take on the responsibility for her pain & suffering. "

It sounds like you are setting boundaries here. Have you actually told her what you've posted here? If so, gosh how courageous and how is she responding?

As for myself, I appreciate your clumsy post from a male's perspective. I weighed your comment about SF. After looking at it I thought that maybe I came off as if I was using my body as leverage to get what I want. That really does sound petty and shallow.

Maybe I came off this way, but my concern is much deeper than holding SF over my mate's head so that I can be satisfied.

At this point I realize that a fundamental block of intimacy, not just affection but a relationship of closeness built on friendship, and caring for one another and feeling for one another is missing between us. Sometimes it is like to me, two strangers being together. We didn't invest in building this in the R in the beginning. While we can't do anything to change the past, I really would like for us to develop intimacy in our future. This is the only way that I feel we can make this R last.

I don't see how people got married and stayed that way for 50 years without having intimacy.
I've talked to older people who've done this amazing feat and the one thing that they seem to tell me in that they got to know each other and love each other unconditionally. They even knew each other like the back their hand. Maybe I read too much into that, but to me it takes intimacy and R to do this.

Anyway so much for that, my H and I are getting along good. For now we are stable, which makes both of us content.

Well take care and have a good one.

Hi guys,

popping in for a bit...wish I could participate more in this thread because it is great to discuss, talk about other stuff, reflect, vent, etc! Dang my life is too busy...why do I have to work anyhow? Where's my winning lottery number??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> jus kidding...don't play lotteries...

J: will come back after I get some more work done but quickly speaking -- I am trying to save you from some of my mistakes through direct suggestions...to give you the chance to see through someone else's eyes that you've gotten to "know" rather than just some anonymous (but excellent) advice from another poster...

do you understand what I'm getting at? I've BEEN there and DONE that! Thought I was following advice while making mistakes that others had warned me about...now I can look back and see these mistakes and pick myself up and try again...

I've mentioned before, we are on similar paths although quite different situations...we truly need to tread carefully...yes, I am preparing for the end of my M and so should you, so should free...NO that does not mean giving up or having a negative attitude or anything else negative...it means you ACCEPT that your M might end, despite your best efforts, despite what you want...it is not in your control...you NEED to move past your fear in order to do what you need to do...detach in love from your W, emotionally detach from the pain and frustration of her problems, without emotionally withdrawing from her!

think about this and if you have a chance to respond, then please do so...I will come back with more specifics if I can today...I do have specifics for you, not just these vague generalities <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...

And by the way, I thought your list was excellent...

free: I have some thoughts for you too...I agree with J...do not use SF as a weapon...please free, get that book or at least read it and see where I am coming from...

J backed up my original posting which seemed to hit a nerve with you...by not "into" it I mean exactly that...what J said...sure it may be "wrong" but we are not here to set right and wrong...just to engage in a loving relationship with another person...it is THEIR choice to engage or not with us...once we accept this enormously difficult concept -- no one HAS to do anything -- then we can move in the direction of how best to I engage with my S?

the book talks about this at length...by "granting" them (and yourself) freedom, they choose to do the stuff with you that is important to you...

this is clumsy, writing in haste without examples for you to see exactly what I am getting at <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ...

look...it is all a matter of perspective...you may feel your H "must" do certain things but I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is absolutely NOTHING he must do...all I am trying to get you to see is reality...this is FACT...accept it, embrace it and let go...then figure out how to get the stuff YOU want, without coercion, threat, "force", manipulation...through honesty, respect, compassion and love...

perhaps all society is taught dysfunctional love...we see screaming, yelling, making demands as normal to M life...we see it everywhere on the tv and in movies...after the romance, as J says, sit back and ignore the M and "abuse" each other rather than carry on a courtship for life...

every M has conflict...your M is defined by how you deal with it...

we're just some normal average flawed people trying to learn some new life skills in the heart of a very painful confusing time...it is always hard to re-learn any habit...

for a short post this is my usual ramble through the old thought processes...but as I say, I am feeling so much better and stronger that I KNOW this stuff will help you guys too...and believe it or not, you are your own worst enemies right now unless you can accept and let go...change the expectations and goals...

hmmmm...I wonder how much this post is going to piss you off or simply confuse you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...hopefully it will spark off some debate or reflection! awed

oh and J, thank you for your very kind words <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ...I've applied my professional skills here but I sure do like working on M issues...I feel quite passionate about it now!

I am keeping my fingers crossed but it's hard you know? To hope and not worry about being crushed if I don't get in...kind of like M efforts right now...don't know if the work and hope will "pay off" or not...but I've done the best I can do...

actually (here comes a bit of boasting because ego strokes are a good thing you know!), one of my referees left me a voice mail message on the weekend...long story but you have to get two academic referee reports and both of mine are hard to contact and far away geographically...

anyhow, the rest of the app was already submitted...I had wanted her input to my app because the program is at her university and I thought she'd have good insight as to whether or not I'd hit the right "note"...

sadly, because of comm problems, I had to submit the app without her input...so in a way, I didn't want to hear and hadn't asked her opinion (chicken!)...I figured if it was negative, it was too late anyhow...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> joy joy joy...without my asking, she called to say it was superb and daringly honest, and she put those quotes right in her referee report!...she said I was a shoe-in because it was such a strong letter (she's a published writer so her impressions mean a great deal)...she doesn't KNOW of course because it is in a different dept but it felt GREAT! I did my best and that is what counts...

this external validation is exactly what I am talking about to you two...putting your eggs in several baskets may FEEL wrong but is the RIGHT thing to do...focus outside, rejoice in accomplishments, successes, beauty, joy...be happy YOURSELF...with yourself...by yourself...awed

Hi J and awed 18

Hey you guys I thought you were like my helpers.

Hast the lady of wisdom and the gentleman of kind words turned an eye of discernment away from your handmaiden? Dost though, with a forward eye of compassion bare bias toward the one who dare not surface in a marriage builders forum or MC or anything else as a gesture of marital resolve?

Horrible Shakesperean, but I wanted to sound funny or say something kind of goofy in an effort to curtail my upset. Also I wanted to ask how come it seems that you guys are seeming to say that how I feel doesn't matter but how my H feels is more important?

I'm sure you guys aren't taking sides, but I just really feel like I'm not being heard. I can't get my point across to my H and I guess I have 2 voters against my plan. Which to me, again isn't about trying to force my H to do anything. At the same time I don't want to be forced to do anything either.

It would be perfect to me if my H and I could just talk this matter over and make some compromises but right now this doesn't seem to be an option. Maybe it seems that I'm trying to reject my H but I'm not. We get along good in other areas of life and for now this is fine for me. So I just accept that this is the case for now. We will both have to come to terms with this M one way or another.

Anyway as I posted to you guys I will be posting more about other areas of my life. Discussing this area just seems more headache than I can deal with. Some good things are happening and I'm happy about them. I will go back and look at both your post because maybe I'm missing something.

Have a good one.

freetobe,

hang in there, I don't have time to post now since work is having to take the highest priority in life but I will later.

Real quick, I did not mean to imply that you were being petty or shallow regarding SF. Your frustration over intimacy is legitimate. My only concern is that that frustration could lead to actions that would only worsen the situation.

I think starting over is a great idea but your H needs to be on board. So have you talked to him about it and what does he think? Look into the book that Awed recommended, if he resists having to make changes then the book may really help since that's what it is for.

Please take care,

J

freetobe,

You do either plan A or plan B ... nothing in between. If you want to pull ENs ... pull it all and NC (aka. Plan B). Otherwise your action will be considered as "not caring" and H will use it as an excuse for his action.

-rh-

J, Hi. I'm hanging in here. I was just feeling some disappointment. I know that maybe I'm not seeing everything as I ought to. So I'm going back to do some looking over things. I really don't want to invite more problems into the situation. I think I need to see an IC also. And I probably need to read the book awed suggested.

Anyway thank you both for your thoughts that have helped. Maybe I'm being a baby about this. I question that sometimes. I don't know.

Anyway what is happening with you? How is W also?

free: hon, I'm right here...let's talk okay? Don't go away...let's talk right now...takes so long to log in and post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ...wish I had faster technology...

reply!!! Are you still here? I want to talk this out with you right now...awed

I'm here awed but I don't know if you are still out here.

<small>[ March 11, 2004, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm sure you guys aren't taking sides, but I just really feel like I'm not being heard. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">don&#8217;t feel like that!!! We care immensely about you which is why we are saying what we are saying.

Do you want to hear that it is not fair? That you are right and your H is wrong? Sure we can feel that way but it does no good.

If that's what you want to hear though, then say so!!! Say I want to hear that this sucks...cause it sure does...MB is tough love because we are trying to help each other in the best way we can...to call each other on mistakes...and mistaken intentions...made in the best possible reason given that we have NO distance from our own emotions...

I see you headed for more heartbreak...that is why I am questionning you...I went for a walk today and was thinking about you...the book I suggested was for good reason...it helps you to change your perspective...and it gives you a good series of exercises that will help you determine if you want to remain in your M after giving it your best shot...

I hear your frustration loud and clear...if I had it in my power to boot your H (or J's W) up the backside, I would! But I don't and neither do you...no one does...you could marshall every person he's ever respected to tell him that you are right and he might still choose to give them the raspberry...

Here's the deal: you are responsible for YOU and your choices...so much of what we do is about perspective...

let me give you an example...someone here was upset...her H left the house and took too long...she freaked...he's calling OW!!! He arrives home with flowers and wine and all kinds of stuff...

perspective is going to drive our actions...this is a given...a fact...if we take charge of our perspective, take control over it, make it work to our advantage, then we will succeed...

doesn't mean we'll get what we want...it means we'll be in control of ourselves, our lives, our happiness...this is true recovery...

I've seen others post about make him/her do this/that...I simply don't believe it myself...sure you might scare them into doing what you want...but that is a short-term solution...resentment can build...secretive behaviour continue etc...

the true secret to recovery is within you...we are our own worst enemies...

redhat, J, myself...we're trying to get you to see that before you set yourself up for another fall...that's all...

having a romantic, intimate M? You bet!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My goal too...but first off, it ain't gonna happen right now...it is simply too soon...secondly, read the book! See some other strategies for figuring out what you want and how to get it...

is this all to esoteric for you? chat back at me here...challenge me all you want...but this is your support network baby...don't go into withdrawal from us now...

we touched a nerve cause you are hurting...let it out here...this is your equivalent of taking a deep breath!

I'm going to run to the store but I'll be back...let me know what's up...I can stick around for another couple of hours...awed

we were cross posting...glad you are still here...

well, before I respond to what you said, how about if you respond to the stuff I said...how's that for selfish of me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Actually, this will let me go to the store and come back and reply again! I've never chatted on-line...this is the closest I've come...something new!

awed

Ok awed thank you so for being willing to chat because I just don't see how you do it between Kung fu and grad applications. but I feel if you are willing inthe midst of your schedule to try to help me, you and J then maybe I'm deafening my ears when they should be open.

One time you posted tp me to try to see things from other perspectives and not to be confined to seeing things one way. Maybe it is actutally time for me to try this. I have tried it some but I guess I still feel that I'm still the one paying.

I've paid for a while now. So my frustration tolerance is rather low. This is tough love that I'm not used to. I'm trying to see it differently. And for the record I'd like to say that My H isn't all bad. He has some good sides.

Thank you again.

Hi awed

Ok I will reply to your post. Which allows you to go to the store. And also allows me to cook lamb I've eaten it but not cooked it before. So I'm looking at a recipe and chatting at the same time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Hope it doesn't taste too bad.

Maybe I should start off with things that maybe I don't understand first. BTW, your other post did help me by syaing I was right and H is wrong. Why did I need you to say that? I don't know. I guess because maybe I'm not so right in the way I want to get from point A to Z. But I've put myself at such a point of resistance that I haven't been listenng or reading maybe as much as I should be. So I guess I want to be validated for taking a route that isn't best for us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see you headed for more heartbreak...that is why I am questionning you </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">awed first off, let me make sure I'm not flying right past what you are saying thereby missing your point entirely.

Your concern is in the way I want to handle getting the M back on track right?

Am I setting myself up for heartbreak because I don't want to do SF? Is the concern that my H will feel that I am rejecting him?

That he may possibly go to go another or feel justified in having another A because I'm not meeting his EN?

If this is the case, isn't it possible for us to work with each other without it? I mean both of us are somewhat limited in meeting each other's ENs. But it seems to be ok. We talk and get along ok. Not like I would like. What if this is just the way it has to be right now? Or am I assuming that this won't come back and haunt me or that because my H isn't saying it that he isn't feeling rejection?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's the deal: you are responsible for YOU and your choices...so much of what we do is about perspective...

I know I'm responsible for me. So I'm trying to set boundaries for what I can control but I'm not right in doing so. So how do I get my point across. How do I help my S to understand me?

What as it pertains to my perspective is wrong if all I want is for us to be closer not for me to hurt him but for us both to grow closer?

I understand what you were saying about the lady and her H. A few times I've had those suspicions as she had. But I try not to act in them because I know they may be more of DJ than anything. On the other hand if my H should be up to something how do I protect myself?

I guess from my perspective I am trying to concentrate at other aspects also. Like how I talk to my H in our everyday interaction. Making sure I am meeting personal obligations that I have with him and other aspects of M.
I try to focus on treating my H better with respect and trying to let go of anger that would have me on any given day throw an object at him. Also I try to better encourage conversation about other things. So that we are communicating. My thought is that maybe I can focus on the other areas that need to be stregthened and in an around about fashion get to more serious or deeper matters. Especially since it seems diffcult to just talk things out.

awed maybe I'm talking in circles. I'm trying get it out where or what I'm misunderstanding.
Thank you again.

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

J are you out here too. If so, you are welcomed to post your opinion too. Which I know you have already. Also if you are concerned about something I'm here to be a reading eye.

lamb sirloin...smells delicious from here!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok awed thank you so for being willing to chat because I just don't see how you do it between Kung fu and grad applications. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">grad app is in and done...except for the waiting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...and kung fu is only 2 nights a week...plus I do situps and pushups to make me big and strong! I can do those anytime...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> maybe I'm deafening my ears when they should be open.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do not do this...if something upsets you, look at why that is...usually a sore point means that you really should do some more exploring...sometimes it doesn't mean anything other than you are feeling touchy!

and hey...this is crap...no doubt about it...we've been handed crap on a plate instead of lamb sirloin! no wonder we're so grouchy hmmmm?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One time you posted tp me to try to see things from other perspectives and not to be confined to seeing things one way. Maybe it is actutally time for me to try this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">gosh...you didn't listen to something I said??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seriously though, yes, try it...it will literally change your life free...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have tried it some but I guess I still feel that I'm still the one paying.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this unfortunately will continue for a long time yet...why are you doing this program? write down your reasons and keep them in mind...

for me? As reparation for the damage I inflicted on someone I love dearly...because someone I love dearly is in trouble and walking away would not feel right to me, would not sit square with my conscience...because I have come to believe with all my heart that I will suffer no matter what I do (staying or leaving)...therefore I choose the path of direct healing AND possible M reconciliation...rather than the "simple" path of walking away and healing in bitterness and anger...

and I am growing and learning immensely during this time...it is my MLC too so perhaps this is only appropriate...I will not be the same...I AM not the same already as the person I was last year...and I know my future shines much much brighter as a result of these changes...it is already happening...

I am doing it for me, because of me...

why are you doing it?

If it is your choice to do so, then accept your choice graciously and lean into it passionately...do not expect results from your H because he makes his own choices...you hope for the changes you are looking for...you cannot force them...

the book I rant on and on about does an excellent job of nailing down perspectives...

here's one I read yesterday somewhere else: everytime you say "I can't..." change it to "I won't..."

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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't stop LBing my H because he makes me so mad...
  
  I can't stop thinking obsessively about my H and what he's up to...
  
  I want to stop thinking about the A but I can't...</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

We've heard these kinds of statements over and over here at MB...how different is it when we change perspective?

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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I won't stop LBing my H because he makes me so mad...
  
  I won't stop thinking obsessively about my H and what he's up to...
  
  I want to stop thinking about the A but I won't...</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Who's in the driver's seat? What a simple way to change your perspective. To feel in control...and that WILL make you feel better in the long run...people may resist taking control over their own behaviours and emotions (isn't that what we accuse the WS of doing???), but nevertheless free: you are the ONLY one in control...

How do you want to live your life? Feeling resentful towards your H? Or happy with yourself even though you are doing more of the work on your R?

Perspective...give it some thought...it may truly change your life forever...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've paid for a while now. So my frustration tolerance is rather low. This is tough love that I'm not used to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the hardest thing...no one would choose this...we have to live the life we are given though...and change the things we can...accept the rest...

I'd like to challenge you to imagine worse...can you? I can...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm trying to see it differently. And for the record I'd like to say that My H isn't all bad. He has some good sides. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how many sides does he have? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> syaing I was right and H is wrong. Why did I need you to say that. I don't know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">free: we are not mind-readers either...if you want affirmation...come here and say it...otherwise you are likely to get constructive criticism...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I've put myself at such a point of resistance that I haven't been listenng or reading maybe as much as I should be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">good for you...recognizing that YOU put yourself there...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your concern is in the way I want to handle getting the M back on track right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">correct

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Am I setting myself up for heartbreak because I don't want to do SF? Is the concern that my H will feel that I am rejecting and go to another or feel justified in having another A because I'm not meeting this EN? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yes of course, but also that you are working against your own goals of a happy M...you won't get there through taking...and of course your taker is screaming right about now...what about ME!@!!!!!!

Read the book free...see if it helps...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If this is the case isn't it possible for us to work with each other without it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">somebody has to lead...if it is an important EN for him, then you need to provide it...read the book...this is a very common problem between men and women...she has some good suggestions...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> because my H isn't saying it that he isn't feeling rejection?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">good observation...he may well not say anything...often men don't...but it doesn't mean that they are not feeling it...and feeling it as rejection which then ties into a whole lot of trouble in the psyche...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So I'm trying to set boundaries for what I can control but I'm not right in doing so. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you are right...this is not about right and wrong...it is about getting what you want...isn't that a good thing?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok what as it pertains to my perspective if all I want is for us to be close not for me to hurt him but for us both to grow closer then how is my perspective wrong?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it is not wrong...it is about the best way to go about it...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand what you were saying about the lady and her H. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure you do...what I was trying to demonstrate is that our perspective is what determines how we feel and subsequently how we act...we think we're operating on logic and fact, but it just isn't so...and that is why perspective is key to our emotions and actions...changing our perspective can change our lives...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know this is true so I try to focus on treating my H better with respect and trying to let go of anger that would have me on any given day throw an object at him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this is a good thing too!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SO that we are communicating. I guess trying to meet other ENs because maybe I can go around about to get to what I'm trying to </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that's the ticket exactly...you give to get if you know what I mean...and sure, you may decide to quit later on...but you and I know that that time is not now...so work towards what you truly want...instead of letting your taker sabotage all your good efforts to date...

hope this helps...awed

<small>[ March 11, 2004, 08:11 AM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>