awed, congrats.

On apologizing, I will try it when appropriate. As it is W & I apologize too much to each other. I think it is a sign what 2+ yrs of LBs have done to our communication. It is a sloooooowwww process to have enough confidence to not apologize over every little thing and recongnize the important things that really do warrant an apology. The more I look the more I see just how much our M has been suffering. It's hard not to get overwhelmed by it. Trying to fix everything at once... sigh. I'm trying to ignore what I can so that we can focus on the really important stuff.

W has tomorrow off so I'll be taking Good Friday off as well. I could use the time for self reflection and rest. I'm sure W will not be happy about this but I need it. Attending mass usually helps me find a sense of peace so I'm looking forward to it.

Both of you have a good weekend.

J.

Hi there. How are you both (jgnc and awed)? I am doing great.

awed, I hope things are turning out as you would like regarding your graduate interview. I'm hoping all is well for you on the homefront also.

J, how are your many projects coming along? How's the MRS.?

As for me. Oh my goodness I was having some bouts with past memories (flashbacks)and what I've learned from Susan Page. I was feeling almost desolate, as if I was going into relapse without being able to help myself.

Then I saw my H and I don't know what happened but almost magiacally I wanted to start applying the concepts that I've been learning. I've taken this experience as a bit of igniting fuel to help keep me on the right back toward recovery. Gosh, I've been making so many new discoveries that it has been amazing to me. And a lot of them are self edifying. Boy, am I grateful.

I give the credit for this to the struggle it has taken me to get here, the wise help that you guys have given me and also to God.

I want to share one of my enlightenments. Remember, how I was getting hung up about my H not being affectionate toward me? It took some soul searching to get at why this made me so upset.

First of all, I know it isn't strange or an unreasonable request to want affection. However it becomes unreasonable when demanding that things be this way before one can be happy. Because for me it was as if feeling that my H was affectionate gave me a sort of validation from him that I was attrative to him and that he loved me, right? Also I felt after he had done so much that made me feel that he wasn't attracted to me, namely in having the A, I felt he OWED it to me to make me feel now that he wanted me.

After thinking things over and hearing Susan Page in my head, almost subliminally (Oh yeah I'm listening to a tape of her also), Then I decided a few things:

1. I like affection but I don't have to have it to be content. It would be nice if he made me feel he was attractive to him by being affectionate but he doesn't have to show this for me to be happy.

2. I am attractive (whether he says it or not)because I like what I see when I look at myself. I would like for my H to voice it but it is ok if he doesn't either.

More importantly I'm attracttive not only physically, but I have attractive aspects of myself that I like and it isn't totally physical nor is it something that my H or anyone else has to agree with me about. There are some good attractive parts of me that reflect inner beauty not just the outside package.

3. I discovered that trying to force someone else to show me affection or see me as attractive or show me love, causes me to be dependent on them. When it comes down to getting to know people and building strong bonds of friendship, one has to remove themselves fromt he picture first. Otherwise, one may place inappropiate requirements on others to make them feel validated. Who wants to feel that they have to ego stroke someone all the time in order to be a friend, lover, wife or whatever the case to them? I suspect not too many people.

4. I found that I can give affection. I don't have to feel that someone else has to be that way toward me before I am that way toward them. Oh my goodness. Startling discoveries for me of course. Afterall, when I see a precious little baby I don't say that the abay has to notice me before I almost automatically want to reach out in affection toward the little one. Well I guess this is the same attitude that I'd like to take on with the ones I love. They don't have to reach out to me before I can show them love.

Oh my goodness guys I could go on but I don't want to bore you with too many details. I just hope all is going great for you both and hope to hear from you soon.

signed- a woman getting to know peace and finally in real recovery-freetobe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ April 19, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

Very happy to hear things are going so well.

Life is pretty good right now. Last week our MC commented on how much improvement we have made in such a short time. I attribute it to simple willingness to work within the M.

By her actions my W is showing commitment. I take it with a grain of salt because well, her life is going well right now and its easy to show commitment when things are easy.

Still, there is no talk of separating while she goes to school and we frequently discuss our future as something to be pursued together.

More importantly we are both communicating much more. In MC I have been able to bring up issues that strain our M. It is remarkable how they are now being addressed. Our biggest accomplishment is coming to the realization that we can talk about anything to each other. If we can do that then we can negotiate on anything.

W is doing fine, she is happy about starting school and working a temp job right now which keeps her busy.

My many projects are coming together, but one at a time. We finished painting our bedroom this past weekend. I'll be working this weekend to build some night stands w/ a friend. Hopefully the furniture will come in before our anniversary next week but it's no big deal if it doesn't.

The map and the cabinets for the bar are on hold and will remain so for at least a few weeks.

The past 2 weeks I was really burning out by trying to please so much. After some talks I'm now just being myself, pursuing what I want rather than what she thinks is best for me to pursue. I'm enjoying being able to enjoy myself. W has been helpful in this by taking the pressure off so I don't have to fight her to get time for myself off. I'm cycling a lot and enjoying taking a 5 mile detour to work.

I see a change. Even the times which have been bad have not been the catastrophic events they were before.

I really likes your post. Reminds me of something our MC said regarding needs and wants. Realizing that many of the things we consider to be needs are really wants is liberating. When we label something a need we put our happiness in the hands of the one that provides that need. Labeling something a want gives us responsability for our emotions and also takes the pressure of the one that provides it.

With ENs it gets a little fuzzy for me because on one hand they are not needs in the sense of necessary for survival. However they are necessary for the health of the relationship.

Well, I have to ride home and its about to rain so I'll continue my thoughts on this later.

take care,

J.

all I can say in response to your last two posts? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think that this will be a good thread for others in the midst of personal growth, hmmmm? it's full of doubts, fears, setbacks...but then some real enlightenment, progress, optimism...17 pages of watching a few people struggle through the ups and downs of recovery...of realizing the difference between personal and M recovery...of the ins and outs of communication, contact, counselling...of moving in and out of M recovery while always struggling to maintain/regain the momentum of personal recovery...

I wish I could think that this is the "end", that we will only experience the happy ending from now on...of course, that is not life, merely the Hollywood influence that has me yearning for happy endings...

life is conflict, M is conflict, M is good and bad times, happiness is only possible in relation to troubled times...

but specifically?

free you are awesome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ...keep it up...I am so happy to hear this stuff coming from you and think it will last for the rest of your life...I don't think ANYTHING will ever undo these realizations/revelations...

and the same goes for you jgnc...you are experiencing such a transformation of your internal thinking, it is wonderful to see it happen, and not a moment too soon <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...I know there is a long way to go with your W but the counselling and your introspection are leading you down the right path for sure...keep up the wonderful cycling...I am pea green with envy! (country living is not so terrific for bike-riding unless you off-road which I most emphatically do not do)...

as for me, the interview was excellent yesterday...the Director moved from the exclusive use of careful language ("if we should decide in your favour") to flat out telling me she was going to recommend to the committee that I be accepted...I'm guessing that as Director, as the only one to interview me in person, her recommendation will carry weight! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

however, she warned me that even if the committee agrees with her, there are still going to be bureaucratic hurdles (not insignificant either) that she needs to jump through in order to get me admitted by Grad Studies itself...I do not meet the qualifications required so she will need to mount a campaign to justify why they should bend the rules for me...

so keep those fingers crossed for me guys! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I am closer than I was on Monday...but agonizingly far away still at this point in time...

the homefront is so amazing I cannot believe it...so instead I try to merely experience it and treasure it for what it is...let go of the drama (as Penny puts it so well)...let it become a part of the past...I still want to discuss things but I am trying to train myself not to...to have the discussion in my head, vigorously weed out the important from the rest (it's something like a less than 5% ratio!), simply discard the remaining 95%, and then formulate a plan (discussion, action, further contemplation) for the 5%...

let's face it: as BS we were traumatized...it is so hard to let it go...let it rest...discard the questions, the emotions...the basic "how could you..." common to every single BS...

I knew this would be my greatest challenge from the start...to STOP thinking...to simply BE...while this is a challenge for me at the best of times, I also knew from my voracious reading here that it is a major challenge for virtually all BS...that many BS will choke on later recovery because of this inability to let go...

that's it that's all...let go...simple but NEVER easy...

whew...wordy as always huh?

awed

P.S. both of you might want to hear that H now apologises to me at least every other day, sometimes several times in one day...and this is not in relation to anything at all actually...no triggers, certainly not in response to anything I am saying or doing (ie. guilt-based)...

just whatever is going on inside his head...the true remorse finally...his understanding of the value of what he almost lost, his insanity for the past few years, his lack of control vs. my amazing demonstration of love and "control" (ie. of myself, my emotions), my lack of judgement on him/with him...

it's odd and funny actually...sometimes I say, "oh that!" when I realize he's apologizing for something A-related (the apologies truly come out of the blue at me)...imagine! I can casually reference back to something that used to feel like a knife inserted through my chest, sticking out my back, preventing me from breathing, sometimes literally killing me (emotionally, couldn't eat, severe anxiety attacks)...I guess this means I have truly processed the A and its effects on me...have truly detached from the headiness of the emotions...have truly forgiven...I guess it is all good...

it is just so darn weird!...if I hadn't read it in books or through personal experience of others, I wouldn't believe how much you can grow and heal from such a traumatic experience...

babble de babbling...have an excellent day/week you guys!

Sorry to interrupt your thread, but I just wanted to say hi to awed! Isn't she amazing? I couldn't have made it without her and lots of other people here.

I'm very happy to hear you are doing well. Good luck with getting grad school and the M recovery sounds awesome, as well.

I didn't know that "true" remorse was another milestone. We hit it a couple of weeks ago in a very strange way. Maybe I will share the story one day. Anyways, I just wanted to wave hi. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi J and awed.

First I want to thank you both for so much help and encouragement you've given me. It is helping me so much. In times when things are difficult these post come to mind and I think about something that was posted here.

J, I'm so glad to hear about your personal progress and also with MRS. Her showing committment is great. I know this is a big step. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the needs and wants pointer too.

As it pertains to meeting needs, I have found with my H that as I observe him I learn more about his needs. Sometimes it is diffuclt because it isn't quite like just having him rate them on the Needs Questionnaire. But I try hard to watch and get a feel of what he wants. Being that he is the quietest man that I've met in my life, it is no piece of cake.

awed, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hip Hip hooray <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm glad to hear about the interview. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks also for the encouragement to me and J. And the compliment about our progress on this thread. Boy, it has been No walk in the park.
But I feel you have been my sinse (sin-say)(I know this is misspelled) and I the grasshopper at times.

I know you are right that this isn't the end. Oh, shame on Hollywood's misgivings.

I'm happy to hear how things are going on the homefront and wish you and J more happiness with your spouses.

As for me, things are going great. I'm just learning so much more about my H.

Sometimes I feel a little overwhelemed by it all. Also a little afraid that what if something should change. I dismiss my fears though and get past them.

Anyway thank you guys again.

<small>[ April 21, 2004, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: freetobe ]</small>

lbc!!! <<<<lbc>>>>

well howdy you! hope you pop on back in here because I've wanted to say hi for a long while...

it sounds like things are going well for you my friend...I admit to curiosity about your latest postings but your reasons are your own for not sharing specific details! after all, you are not here to satisfy my purient (and endless!) curiosity... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

suffice to say I am SO pleased to hear that your H is coming to deep realizations...yes -- "true" remorse is a recovery milestone...mind you, I thought I'd heard it from my H before <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> but now I see the greater depth of H's remorse, I understand the importance of it for HIS personal recovery...

and that is what it is I guess...I no longer need it for me...he needs to express it for him...

as mentioned, the dynamic is very interesting...I have to remember to thank him each time because it is a gift he is offering to me...just because my personal recovery no longer requires it, it still means a great deal from one S to another...

hope your little sweetheart is doing well and kicking up a storm in your household! (getting the terrible twos yet?)...lusty, breathtaking, life-affirming little beings...never really a dull moment huh?

take care...awed

hey free...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sometimes I feel a little overwhelemed by it all. Also a little afraid that what if something should change. I dismiss my fears though and get past them.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">way to go!!! I think you are figuring out how strong you truly are...it's excellent to watch from my end I'll tell you...

now...when are you inviting me over for some of that delicious lamb? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> cooking up something else perhaps?

have an awesome weekend...awed

P.S. you too J if you drop in...

awed, Does that mean I'm strong, when I'm actually able to handle being overwhelmed and fear and all that stuff. Well, I'm glad to hear it. Sometimes I want to dpwnplay that I feel strong because I don't want to become overcofident. But I guess giving myself a little pat on the back in recognizing my strenth is ok.

Thanks awed you make me feel good about myself.

How was your weekend?
Oh the lamb, the lamb. I'm getting better and better at it. It is such a tasty meat and I love the fatty parts. Just the parts I need to stay away from right. So tell me, when would you like to sample my novice cookery?

I hope your week is just wonderful.

J I hope all is well and you had a great weekend.
Hope to hear from you soon.

Have you guys noticed that we post much less than we did before? I think it is a good thing.

I'm just too busy. But maybe its a sign I'm actually handling life better.

Had a good weekend for the most part except for when W had a bit much to drink and started rehashing ancient history involving OM. Didn't do to well with that but the wonderful thing is that we seem to recover much better. The conflict we experience seems to come from voicing our disagreements which I think can only be a good thing.

Other than that it was a great weekend. Took my first steps into woodworking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Hopefully by then end of this weekend I'll have a set of night stands for the new bedroom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm trying to ignore the negative stuff that always seems to crop up in life. I can't seem to be able to ignore it so I'm giving myself time to be upset and put it behind me.

There's so many small changes I see in her and myself, I'll be exploring some issues from the past in IC now and maybe something will come of it. I wish I could write about it all but like I said no time.

Anyways a belated congrats on the interview to Awed and on the positive steps in both of your homes.

BTW country living is excellent for cycling IMHO. Low traffic, terrific views, of course you do need a bit of pavement or a dual suspension mountain bike, personally I like the off-road so I have the suspension but hopefully will have a road bike soon.

Oh and its Sifu for Kung-fu Sensai for karate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

later friends.

J.

posting my reply to Octobergirl and Awed here since get easily lost in GQII

Well yesterday was W's B-day and we had a great time so I'm feeling better. Plus I think after almost 2 weeks the anti-d's are kicking in again.

well yes I can talk to my W and have to some extent. She knows there is still anger and she understands. In fact before she could not understand how I could not be angry. But that's it. There is a wall in our communication because well... she does not take critisism well. It's hard for her to face up to her actions and take ownership of them.

I am trying to vanish the thoughts because as our MC said, I have to give her the opportunity to change. On the otherhand my IC tells me that it is normal that I do not trust her committment and that the feeling may not fully go away.

I'm thinking of when I started feeling like this. Recently she's found some dissatisfaction w/ grad school and has expressed some regret at being tied to Colorado and being restricted from applying to other schools. This is a big trigger because she blamed the marriage before for killing her career. That dissatisfaction fulled the EA to begin with.

There's a lot of resentment as to how the A finally ended. Yes I did mean A not M.

I'm thinking a lot about these things:
I had to end it for her w/ a threat to OM.
She never has asked for forgiveness, though she has said she is sorry for hurting me.
Her views on marriage and commitment (antiquated cruel institution) in general make it hard for me to believe that she could ever make a real commitment.
She has difficulty w/ empathy.
Sometimes she seems more concerned w/ what her actions say about her than what their effect is on others.
She recognizes some narcissistic qualities in herself.

These are not things I can change. I guess I'm asking myself if these are things I can live with. And of course there are the fears that creep up sometimes, that if I mess up or something beyound my control happens to my work or school does not work out for her, that she will be looking for a way out again.

I'm trying not to get down on this. She is trying. For the first time in over a year, she seems to be letting me figure out what I want for myself rather than dictate it to me. Just trying to focus on the small positives rather than the long way to go.

Awed,

In other news. work is ok. Was having a few bad days there where I was sure I was going to quit but it passed. I'm getting some good possitive feedback so I'm optimistic. The painting is stalled, many home projects are stalled, part of the minor breakdown which made me slow down considerably. I still have some end tables I need to finish constructing and that comes first.

I'm finally buying a road bike, which W is quite enthusiastic about. She really likes that I am seriously persuing an goal.

Take care, and let us know how your grad plans work out.

J.

Hey J...

I wrote a long response to you that went *poof* when my computer froze last Friday...grrr...I still hate that...I try to remember to write in Word so the doc is saved but noooooooo...and problems always seem to happen when I am either posting on a forum or responding to a Yahoo message (also no auto save)...

anyhow...

first on the lighter side, I am relieved about work getting better, and thrilled to hear about the bike! get out there and work it!!!

I've dumped kung fu for now which sucks big time...I know I'll get back to it soon though...nothing like vigorous physical exercise!

grad school is amazing...I am having a wicked time...the program is awesome, the other students are exceptional...it is truly living up to its reputation and my expectations...wow...

okay...

here's that thread I mentioned before...while the thread deals with other mental issues (BPD in particular), it was the comments made by Selene in her post on June 1st, about 4 paragraphs in that made me think of you...

this is one wise lady and I found her comments interesting... **edit**

I'd also written some personal observations to you in the "lost thread" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...the kinds of things I've seen change over time in talking with you, etc.

short version: it's time for you to think long and hard about what you want...if you want to stay M to your W, accepting her problems as yours, then it's time to deal with your anger...it is YOURS J...she is going to be as she is...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But that's it. There is a wall in our communication because well... she does not take critisism well. It's hard for her to face up to her actions and take ownership of them </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">there's tons of meat in there that we could talk about...

anyhow, I'd be happy to discuss it in greater depth with you anytime...just let me know, either by e-mail **edit** or pop by **edit** and start a new thread!

one possibly uplifting thought for you bud...my M is incredible, beyond expectations...but the change really did come from inside me...it has to start and end inside you...

taking ownership of the anger, finding the root of it, addressing it, and freeing yourself from those chains...I want to see everyone I care about experience this freedom...

I cannot say whether or not your W will heal...but I know YOU have the potential to do so...maybe you are getting to that point?

take care...and please keep in touch...in fact, I am going to have to go bug free and find up where she's disappeared to! awed