I really don't know where to start. Before I give the background of what led me to where I am today, once you have read my post, I would greatly appreciate any feedback anyone has on the following questions:
1. Is my situation so different that Plan A and Plan B and marital recovery will not work? (I have read "Surviving an Affair" and a lot of information on the MB site as well as posts from lbc and devestated-dad and can hear Dr. Harley saying that it is possible, but I am in desparate need of objective advice as I don't always see clearly).
2. Has anyone used the telephone counseling from Steve and if so, any feedback on whether he could help me through some of this (since my WS, as you will see, is not ready for marital counseling - and who knows if she will ever be.
3. Given the existance of children, would going to Plan B, do more harm than good?
4. I have heard some in the discusion forum mention that someone in my shoes should let those in her life know of the affair in hopes they would put pressure on her to end it. Should I? (I have protected her in this regard as I thought that it might drive her away, especially since she would no longer have the fear that her Mom & Dad might find out, etc. However, her 2 sisters know, as do several friends she has confided in).
5. I am in Plan A and am doing a good job not doing any Love Busters for the past month. But she continues to call him and I fear that she sees this as a chance to continue what she is doing with no pain. I have tentatively scheduled an end to Plan A as 3/31/04, but given that her counseling sessions and goal to make a decision is not until 5/19/04, should I revise my date?
6. I have no control over what happens given that I am doing everything that I should to show her this is a good alternative to the Affair. However, she is in love with him and it does not seem to matter what I do as she wants her cake & be able to eat it too. Am I being too good to her?
7. Given my wife's issues with love and men, and her inability to see how good she has it now and the ruin that a decision to go with the OM would cause - do we even stand a chance?

Background: We dated for 8 years prior to marriage as I wanted to be sure that she was the one I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. We discussed how we did not want our marriage to end in divorce like so many others out there. We complemented (and still do) each other, enjoyed spending time together, and we were definately in love with each other. After 3 years of marriage we had our first baby girl (now 5 1/2 years old) and given that I worked full time and so did she, plus we each traveled far to work, this left little time for us to keep our love as crisp as it had been. I had just figured that this is what all people with children go through and that as our daugter got older, we would have more time to reconnect. In retrospect, I did not listen to the times my wife asked that we leave our daughter with someone for the night so that we could get away together. No one was good enough to watch my baby girl. Again, in hindsight, I put my daughter first and my wife second, although I had no inkling of any of the feelings my wife had about this or that she was ripe for an affair. You could really say that lack of communication and lack of care for our marriage and each other were key components of our downfall. She never told me what was up and I may not have really listened to the extent that I would have needed to. You should know this about me: I could have had affairs during our marriage had I wanted to, but I was dedicated to my wife and family and would never let myself cross that line. The way I viewed it, I would not even let myself get into a situation even remotely tempting, so that it would never happen. You should also know that despite our lack of attention and attention to our marriage, I did and still do love my wife very much. I generally work 50 or so hours a week, while my wife has gone back to school and then worked 3 days a week, so that she had time to spend with our children. She enjoyed not working full time and we agreed that the trade off of income was well worth it. She has not really made a paycheck since last December, as our 2nd daughter was born in January and she finished up her clinical assignment in the same office that the OM worked and where she also worked. I say all this so that you know that money was not an issue and that I was perfectly fine with it. If you knew me, you would describe me the way my wife does: caring, honest, generally laid back, confident, love being a dad and spending time as a family, intelligent, love to joke around, earn a decent living, and fully committed to my family above all else. I do more around the house (and watch the kids so that she can run and work out) more than 95% of the husbands out there. People would describe me as a good person with a kind heart and the perfect family man.

On August 7, 2003, my WS sat me down at 10:30 pm and told me that she was in love with the physician she worked with. At that time, I was assurred that it was not "sleazy" in her words, she was very confused, still loved me, etc. My reaction was shock at first, but very loving and "We can get through this together". As anyone that has ever been though this knows, there were more lies than you could count. I floundered through discovery after discovery (via spy software on the computer, talking to the OM's wife, following her on one of her runs - where she often met the OM, etc.)

You should also know that the OM is a physician who makes a VERY good living, is married and has 4 kids. He and my WS are very much alike: Type A, have to be in control (they both handle the checkbooks, etc.), they need to be the center of attention, they are both selfish (even before the affair) in that they both do what they want to do with their time, even if it means that others have to give up what they want to do. He and his wife have a terrible marriage, yelling and fighting all the time, although she is trying to change her bad behaviors and trying to save the marriage. The OM has laid out a plan to both his wife and mine, how it would work (money, logistics, etc) if he gets a divorce and he and my WS get together. He is cold and calculating, yet she is drawn to him.

She lost her job at the end of August (had been working tentatively only for 2 months) as everyone at her work was talking about them and it was becoming a disruption. Within a few days I learned that they were still having sex (I later found out that oral sex had been taking place on an irregular basis since December of 2001 and that they had been having sex since early to mid June of 2003.) The affair continued and I was definatley focused on the pain of each new thing I learned: sex, she loved me but was "in love" with him, they would meet regularly after work, etc.
The sex finally stopped in mid September, and in late October we thought she was pregnant, and the difficult issue was that it could not have been mine. Thankfully she was not pregnant as it would have definately ended our marriage.
I did find the MB website within 2 weeks of learning of the affair, and it helped me understand why she and he feel that they did not do anything wrong, why she could continue to hurt me so, why she would continue to risk the future of her kids, etc. I really put me inside their heads. I got the Surviving an Affair book and read it and re-read certain chapters.

I guess I would also be remiss if I did not mention that my wife grew up in a family that did not express love at all, especially from her Dad, and her brother spent his teenage years telling my wife she was ugly (but she is so beautiful!). So she did not grow up with a good self image. I guess the psychologists would tell you that her many unhappy and sexual relationships/encounters in high school and college were a direct result of her looking for love. She found me at the end of her freshman year and over the years she discovered someone that loved her and thought that she was beautiful, smart, etc.

I know I have babbled on a good bit, but it does give a good picture, although certainly not complete. Through the help of the MB website and SAF book, I have been able to see that I was concentrating too much on "This is not fair", "This is not supposed to happen to good people", How wrong she was and how could she risk losing a man that through all of this pain and disrespectfullness, I was willing to stand by her - as long as she ended the affair. I was trying to force her to end it by my comments of what damage it would do to the kids, how she and he if given the chance would self destruct once the passion ended and "real life" came crashing back in on them (He would have a lot less money after alimony and child support, he would not help care for her kids when she had them, etc.) In essence, I was spending a lot of time trying to convince her, when I should have been trying to convince myself that she has to end ti. I didn't force her to marry me and I cannot force her to return to us and concentrate on us. But I am there now, with the help of a few good people, MB, SAF, and the MB discussion forum.
She is in counseling (2 sessions completed) where her goal by 5/19/04 is to be in a position to make a decison that will be good for her on whether to stay and work on the marriage or leave and go with the OM.

I have been through more emotional pain over the past few months than I thought I could endure. The only worse thing I could imagine is the death of a child - we are talking about the potential death of our marriage.

We have identified her (and my) Emotional Needs, and I am trying my best to meet the two of the top five that I was not meeting (admiration and affection). I had not been meeting these two, and they are her top two. I meet numbers 3, 4, and 5 (sexual fulfillment, financial support, and domestic support). Interestingly, my top one is the need for honesty, as I do not feel that trust and marriage are possible without it.

I have shared all of what I have learned via MB as I was hoping that she would "see the light" but of course that has not happened. She has not seen him for a month(as far as I know, but I have been lied to so many times, who knows), but continues to talk to him regularly on the telephone.

I have told her that "her future does not hold both he and I in it." And that at some point she must make a decision, with the danger being that I am only so strong and I could make it for her. She is aware of this, yet still feels that:
1. She is afraid of making a decision to leave him behind as she is in love with him and how could she ever fully commit to me/us with the likely possibility that she would someday regret her decision as she does not fully know if they were meant to be together (They have convinced each other they are soulmates and everything in their lives happened just so that they would eventually find each other and be together (how convenient!)
2. He holds the possibility of her being able to work as his nurse practitioner in their own practice someday, which has been a dream of hers.
3. She and he have sworn that even if things eventually did not work out between them, they would always be friends.
4. She is fine somedays with us (even given #s 1-3 above) but other days she is miserable missing him.
5. She sometimes wonders if she deserves me.
6. Sex is infrequent at best, as she feels that it is not fair to her or me given her state of mind (previously he had convinced her to not have sex with me as it hurt him so - yet he was free to do so with his wife).
7. She has told others that she "made bad decisions in her marriage, regrets it, and that she is working on it now. But in reality she is only working on her decision, not our marriage. She has said that she does not feel comfortable working on us until she is sure that that is the route to take. I have told her that I cannot fill that place in her heart as long as she is talking to him, continuing to tell him she loves him, hears it from him, etc.

So am I crazy? Am I kidding myself? Are these insurrmountable odds given that she is in love with him and not with me? Is reconcilliation possible, what about my questions at the start of this post? Anyone have anything insightfull? I have gone this route as I need something to turn to when things get rough, when I find out that she talked to him that day, when I think about the possibility of what divorce would bring, etc.

It takes all I have every day to keep my sanity and try and concentrate on the positive things (she is still here, I am still meeting some of her needs, etc.) I keep telling myself that I will not be the one to end it, as I will become a better person and will go on if she does not choose me. And here is the biggest issue I have yet: If she leaves me, even if it is "just" to see if they can be compatible, I fear that I will lose it in terms of any hope for us and that I will end the marriage. A person can only handle so much pain and rejection. At times I wish they would move in together or that it would be over so that I could begin healing and moving on. But just imagining the pain it would cause my daughters is sobering. I guess I will stop rambling now. Help!

hurtingdad - You are in a very good position to save your marriage. You have been in Plan A for a month. Can you continue it for a couple more months? You have the advantage of spending time with her and meeting her EN's and also making your marriage an attractive alternative. The OM, being a physician, with a wife and 4 kids is not going to have enough time. Your wife and he are living in a fantasy world. Only you can decide when it is time for Plan B. The timing is critical, doing Plan A long enough, but going to Plan B soon enough to protect your love for her and your desire to save your marriage. The counseling here is great - I did not do it because it seemed expensive. However in the long run it would have been cheap for me. I've lost thousands of dollars since WH and OW have been together. Many people here have done the counseling and benefitted greatly. The best thing about it is that you already know the agenda. If you go to a regular counselor, you are taking your chances, and may take many hours getting to the point. Hang in there and don't give up. When you get low, remember that this is just like an addiction to your wife. And don't be so hard on yourself - marriages and child raising are often boring. Most people realize it and have the commitment to see it through.

I'm glad you decided to post your story. Wow! You have been through alot. I do believe your M can be saved and MB can help. I, too, wonder if my situation fits here, but I have read posts where people have done things a bit differently, but it works out. I have heard cases where NC was not absolute. This also happened with my MIL. FIL stopped seeing OW, but would still call her from time to time. MIL did notice a drop off in the amount of calls after awhile, but she had to decide for herself that she wasn't going to hold on to the hurt and resentment anymore. She wanted him to declare his choice, she wondered if the A was over. Her therapist said that he had made his choice, but MIL was not listening.

I believe your WS has made her choice, but withdrawal is difficult. If my WS decides to stop seeing OW, I know he will keep talking to her, but maybe that action would give me a little bit more strength to go on. It sounds like you do have the willpower, but you are wondering if the plan will work. Alot of people say that we can't always see Plan A working. The WS is watching, but may not give any indication that they like what they see. You won't know it is working for awhile yet.

I have considered doing the phone counseling, but money has been tight for awhile. Perhaps I'll see how the budget looks in a couple of weeks. I've heard great things about it.

It seems Plan B is also for couples with children, though I have heard that it doesn't really work with small children like we have.

Yes, part of Plan A is to tell most everyone about the A. I haven't followed this part, yet, and maybe that is why it is taking forever for WS to choose. Only MIL/FIL know at this point and WS told one of his friends. I'm hesitant to tell my family, because that is one of WS personality quirks. He needs others to think highly of him.

I can't believe the therapist gave her until May to make a decision. What would happen if you separated? Would she take the children? I don't think I could last in Plan A until May. If you feel you can do it, I think it fits perfectly into the MB principles. I have come on here repeatedly asking if I should stay in Plan A and many people said that Plan B should be seen as a last resort. There is more hope for reconciliation if you are in Plan A.

It is very hard to do Plan A. It means we are supposed to be 'nice' to someone who is continually hurting us, but I can see the wisdom in the advice. Are you sure WS does not feel pain? My WS has repeatedly expressed the pain he is in, but I don't want to believe him. It makes it easier for me to stay angry at him.

Have you told WS about your part in creating the atmosphere for her to have an A? I notice my WS keeps going back to the fact that I neglected him and our M for a long time. Apparently, he hasn't *heard* my acknowledgement, yet.

I know what you mean about not getting into As. Sometimes I think people are just wired differently. Even if someone is interested, I'm pretty good at not encouraging it.

I'm glad your WS is in IC. The more I see our situation, the more it looks like the A is a reflection on WS, not on our M.

It's a soulmate A, as well? I tell WS that soulmates are made and not born and he says people who never had a soulmate say that. Ugh! Is there any way you can verify if they are still meeting? If they are, then you will have to decide how long you can stay in Plan A. If they are still talking on the phone only, then you have a good chance for the A to end of its own accord.

You might back off on the SF. Maybe do more of cuddling only. Most women (and my WS) need the emotional intimacy for SF. If your WS is still in love with OM, then her heart won't be in it. I did have SF with WS during the A, but it was more of fulfilling a need for both of us. That is fine with me, but I started to think that he is 'making love' with OW and that was hurting me too much, so I have stopped.

Until there is complete NC and WS has gone through withdrawal, not much is gonna happen in our Ms. At this point, we are just trying to end the As. I tell WS that we are just in limbo at this point.

I totally understand your feelings if she chooses OM at this point. I keep telling WS that even if he chooses OW, we are not talking about divorce. I would still give him 3-6 months to decide to end our M, but I will not be waiting around for him. But when I actually 'put that on' (the idea of him choosing OW), my heart will be crushed. I wouldn't even want to see his face anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I will keep you in my prayers.

As long as your wife is continuing her affair plan A will have no impact.The fog of being "in love with the OM" will prevent her from really appreciating anything you do. IMO you need to focus on making yourself strong physically and psychologically. As long as she sees that she can come back to you she will continue playing this role in her drama. You need to show yourself and her that you can survive and do well with or without her. Unfortunately, your wife may have to go through a divorce in which the family is broken up before she realizes that the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence.

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: yosh ]</small>

believer, lbc and Yosh: Thanks so much for your thoughts. I am so close to my situations that it is often difficult to see some of the critical elements.

I have apologized (and it was truly heartfelt)for the role I played in not focusing on her and us in our marriage, not meeting her needs, etc. She has accepted this apology, but it all still comes back to the fact that she is in love with him and is afraid that she will regret her choice to stay with us in 5, 10, or 15 years if indeed they are "soulmates".

lbc, I think you are right on backing off on the SF and only taking part when she comes to me for it. I believe it is somewhat different for me as a man as it reflects my need to meet her needs, whatever they are, so since she had sex with him, I am probably overcompensating by trying to make sure she is fulfulled sexually so that she does not try and get it met by the OM. I have to get beyond this. We cuddled last night watching television for an hour and it was really good for both of us (we discussed it). Then this morning I gave her a backrub and things progressed to the point that I beleive she had S with me just because she new I was very interested. I think I do need to back off and put my SN on the back burner. It is hard though. But just like every other hard thing in this situation, it is being done for a greater cause.

lbc,I am still not there on your last point though, about not talking about divorce if she chooses the OM. I love my daughters dearly and if she leaves, she will be doing so much mental and emotional damage to our 5 year old (I believe) that I will begin to hate her for it and lose so much love for her that I would be in danger of ending things. Perhaps you can see how much I love my kids and how that got me in trouble by putting them first in our marriage.

In addition, I am fearful that if she believes that I will take her back even after she leaves (causes anguish and pain for our daughters, hurts me even more deeply, etc.) then what reason does she have to end it now? Her way of thinking will be: "OK, he'll take me back, so I am going to leave and do what makes me feel good - I can see the OM, see my kids, get my financial and domestic needs met, etc." Then, and here is how it woould work as she has related to me: she leaves and get her own apartment and go back to work with him at the physician's office. So, we will be back to square one because they will NOT move in together (he doesn't want to leave his wife and kids until she is committed that our marriage ends and he is "safe" to leave his). So, she will not have the realities of life in their relationship (juggling jobs, kids schedules, picking up after him - he is a lazy person, etc.). And without the "realities of life" in their relationship, things still look rosey for them. If she leaves (and I hope it doesn't come to that), I pray that they do move in together as I believe with all of my heart that they will soon see that they are compatable only in an affair, and not in life with all the challenges that each will bring to their relationship.

Sorry for rambling again. I think it is a method of therapy and thought clarification for me.

I am still struggling as to whether or not I should tell more people about the affair for 2 reasons:
1. If I do, some of her worst fears will be realized with her Mom and Dad knowing about it and will she then say "well, can't get much worse, so might as well leave." and
2. She is in therapy and has issues with love and men, some of which I am just finding out about. Will my telling others cause more harm than good if she is indeed trying (and has not seen him for a month).
I think I have decided that I will not tell anyone else yet, unless I find out that they are still seeing each other. At that point, it would be a good tool to have to try and stop the physical contact.

Yosh, you are right. I think that as long as she sees she can come back to me that she will continue this. My challenge is how to show her that I am strong and can continue without her. How to do that while at the same time show her that I still love her and want her to stop the affair and work on our marriage? I think I will seek some telephone counseling on this via MB because I am stretched to the limit on my available time. It is hard to find the time to work on me and learn about how to handle Plan A as it relates to my situation when I have a full time job, spending time with kids, trying to meet her needs, etc.

Thank you both for your insights <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> !

The answer is very simple. Write her a letter in which you tell her that you will always love her but that you are not going to continue fighting for the marriage since she has made it clear by her continued relationship with the OM that she wants to be allowed to behave as a single woman. Therefore you are filing for divorce to release her from the obligation to follow the marriage vows. I would then wish her good health and happiness.

<small>[ November 27, 2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: yosh ]</small>

But wait! If I do that, aren't I giving up and not following Plan A/Plan B and will someday regret it? Is it a bluff? What if she calls my bluff?
A part of her (the part that is conflicted) wishes that I would make her decision for her (essentially by leaving or filing for divorce) so that she does not have to choose.
Or did you tell me that so that I would suck it up and see that the situation I am in is not dire and that I still have a good chance to save my marriage?

hurting: How are you doing? How was your Thanksgiving? I hope you were able to have a good holiday. I think the sticking point with Yosh is that the A needs to end to start rebuilding our Ms. Yosh is on the right track, but I believe Plan B is in order for us, not necessarily divorce. How do you feel about Plan B? Have you made any preparations? Do you know what it would look like? Will you move out? Will she?

Hurting,

The best money and decision you will ever make is to call Steve Harley and make an appointment. He or Jenn if she is available will help you with a plan of action.

Meantime, the answer to your major questions is: YES

Yes, she can love you again. She loved you before, and changed, she can change again. So don't give up yet.

Stick with Plan A until YOUR decision date. If you find you are starting to LB, or just don't care, move to plan B THEN, even if it is before your designated date.

As for your W's date, well it is HER date not yours. It is something she has decided on, and it is something she can change her mind about.

As for the MD be insurmountable, well he had a loving W and 4 children and then stop him from ruining it did it?? He is hardly a man to fear when it comes to this problem. It is your W's issues that must be addressed. She has been cheating on your since 2001 and that is a long time.

If she does go with MD, it is not likely to work. They both want to drive the busbut SHE will have to become subservient to him, which will change her into someone you would not want anyway. If he doesn't care for HIS kids you can imagine what YOUR children will do for him.

Hurting, you have far less to lose than she does and frankly you have a lot to gain. I don't mean to denigrate your marriage, but as she is now, you don't want her. She is going to marry a known cheat, a known control freak, and a man who bearly focuses on other things.

You will either end up with a repent and changed woman, OR you will find a woman that is better suited to you, and perhaps really does understand wedding vows.

I know your preferred resolution of this and that is why I say get into counseling, but Hurting, you are hurting because you are a good and faithful husband who has been betrayed. When you get by this you won't be hurting, she will. You my man will have learned alot, and will very likely find the sort of woman you deserve. I know this is cold comfort right now, but keep your head up.

You are going to win no matter what. Your W has a good liklyhood of losing you through her decisions or yours, and she will lose.

Unfortunately, your children may be the biggest losers if she gets custody of them and she marries this guy. There is nothing you can do, but be as good a dad as you can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So keep to plan A, call the Harley's, stick with your decision date or move it up if you feel yourself slipping, and then trust to time and patience. Her A may or may not end, most do. If you have patience and give it time, you will find that your course will be laid out for you with few major decisions. It may not be what you want,but it may be what you need.

Hang in there, and keep your head up. You are doing well.

God Bless,

JL

lbc: We/I have not made any real preparations, other than to talk about and think about the steps involved and what it would look like. To me, starting down that path is something that I am not emotionally or mentally prepared for. And I fear that starting down that path will lead us inexorably towards separating and divorce. Thanksgiving was pretty good. She and I went away to a bed & breakfast but she still had to get her telephone messages and send him a text message. Hurts, but at least she did not and does not call him in front of me.

Just Learning: You have provided me with a great lift. Thank you for your comments and uplifting thoughts. As anyone that has been through this knows, it is easy to get down and so hard to keep your chin up. I keep saying that I am going to set up the telephone counseling with the Harley's, and then I do not do it. Thank You, Thank You, Thank You. This kind of support is what I had been hoping to find here! You, lbc, etc have been a real blessing.

A wonderful thing happened on Sunday. The mother of one of the kids in my daughter's kindergarten class came over unexpectedly and asked my wife is they could go somewhere and talk - it was really important. So they go and as it turns out, this woman is best friends with the best friend of the other mans's wife. (That is so confusing!) She is a christian that in no uncertain terms told my wife that there is no place for divorce or affairs in a christian marriage and talked to her about being saved, saving her marriage, her kids, that she had knowledge that the other man was deceiving her into thinking he was this changed man who would act so differently than he does in his current marriage, etc. The part you have to understand is that we live over 30 miles from the other man and his wife, and that we life in a small town. What are the chances that a woman that my wife had become friends with was connected to the other man's family in some way? Virtually nil. I believe (and my wife believes so as well, or so she says) that this was a messenger, an intervention from God to tell her to stop this. Now, some of you may be thinking that I am off my rocker, but trust me on this - it was divine intervention! Nonetheless, despite her belief, she is still not making any changes and says it is because she is slow to move. So I have to just hang on.

So after reading that you would think I would see all the positives and be in good spirits. But I LB'd really bad last night (after nothing for over a month) and she almost walked out. (It was a build up because earlier on Sunday, she had called him on her way to the towpath to run (she runs a lot), she called him and "just happened" to mention she was running and of course he showed up. I have been able to handle knowing she talks to him on the telephone, but knowing they see each other hurts and the pain becomes overwhelming. Then to add to it her therapist suggested she move out (we cannot afford 2 residences and if she moves out she is going to go back to work with the other man, which will pretty much kill me and a significant amount of damage will have been done to our kids. And, her therapist suggested that I was an enabler, that she was surprised I had not put my foot down on certain things. So combining the pain from knowing they met and that she can't see the obvious even when visited by a messenger from God, combine that with the fact that I an an enabler, I guess I thought (mistakingly) that I needed to put my foot down and I took her cell phone and would not give it back. And she responded by almost leaving. Both of us were pretty childish I know, but it is not like I was thinking clearly.
But, we talked for 2.5 hours last night after that and besides the damage that had been done, I apoligized and she forgave me for my outburst.
I am going to set that up with Steve/Jenn.

Thanks for your support everyone!

Hurting,

Even a messager from God has a hard time getting through the fog of deceit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Have patience, but stick with your plan A, calling the Harley's, and being who you are.

She may come out of this and she may not. I realize that the thought of divorce frightens you. Go to a lawyer and learn your rights, what you would need to do when, and how to do it. If you two separate, make sure you have a separation agreement in place detailing everything from splitting assets to children's visitation. Propose that you keep the children, as she will be working just like you.

You should NOT act out of fear, that is why I am suggesting that you get this info now. You don't have to threaten her, but you do need to be prepared. I suspect if/when she sense that you are willing to give it up, she may see things clearly.

Meanwhile, if you ever see that woman, thank her. Not many people would get involved even if they knew and she had the guts to stand up and tell your W "how the cow ate the cabbage."

Hang in there and do call the Harley's

God Bless,

JL

hd:

I had 2 chime in here about a 2ple of things:

♣It is far 2 early for you 2 be talking about DV. Yes, the EA has been going on for a long time, but D-day for you was recent. Without disclosure, the WS can fence-sit and eat cake 2 their heart's content, because the fanatasy and the excitement of sneaking around is completely intact. Plan A is 2 negotiate the end of the A, lovingly, once the A has come 2 your attention. You have not had enough time 2 plan A yet, so you're not ready for plan B. When you are, you MUST be prepared for DV before you go 2 plan B, because that is one of the potential outcomes of plan B. Plan B is NOT a bluff. Don't use it as such.

♠Your W's counselor recommended she move out??? I'm sorry, the therapist should be drawn and 2uartered for that, in my not so humble, angry opinion. David Schnarch, author of "Passionate Marriage" gives excellent advice on selecting a marriage counselor. He says something 2 the effect that you should ask them if they ever recommend that their clients divorce. If they do, then find another counselor, because NO counselor can know what's right for a 2ple in trouble 2 do. NO ONE. Separation is often interpreted as a lisence 2 "play the field" by WSs in particular. It's just another state of marriage, however a broken one. What you need is 2 improve your communication while you have the chance, not get misguided advice 2 cut it off prema2rely.

I 2nd JL's advice. Call either Jenn or Steve. Also, Cerri does marriage coaching, and she was trained by Willard Harley. She'd be another option.

-ol' 2long

Just Learning and 2long, thanks for your insights and suggesstions. I should tell you and lbc that I have scheduled a counseling session with Jenn Harley for next Tuesday evening, so I am looking forward to that. But it took a near emotional breakdown on my part to finally schedule it yesterday. My WS, while still living with me and the kids, engaging us on an everyday level, has been slowly emotionally withdrawing from her contact with me. And it is killing me. I need some help desperately (and I don't want drugs in case it could hurt my chances for child custody if it gets that far) so I am hoping that Jenn and I can work through this and that I can maintain the strength to go on with this. No question, I fear the future negative possibilities. As much as I tell myself to be strong, as much as I try, I am getting discouraged that she will ever see the light. How many lives will be ruined in the process?
We are amicable with each other, still tell each other we love each other (the difference is that she is "in love" with him). We talk about this every couple days. She is not allowing me to meet her emotional needs: sexually - she doesn't feel "right" doing that with me, admiration - How can I show her this when she is hurting us all so much & it would sound fake, etc. I call her once or twice a day while I am at work. She is just distancing herself more and more.
I finally told her mom (who told her dad) only to find out that her sister had already pretty much given them the lowdown. I filled in the gaps with her mom and another sister. All of her family that knows is being very supportive of me, can't understand how she can do this to such a wonderful guy, with kids, etc. She knows that if she goes with the OM that she will be closing a door to most of her family, as the OM will never be welcome in their lives. They are old world Italian, and they say what they mean. They still love her, but do not understand or condone what she is doing.
A problem is that I cannot seem to emotionally detach. I still love her, although I do not like her much. I do know, as Just Learning mentioned on December 1st that after I recover, I know that I would be in a better place without her. But saying that and getting to the point of accepting it and making decisions that could cause/allow her to leave - it is unbearable. That is why I am banking on getting some direction from Jenn Harley.
I tell her that I cannot envision us not being together and she says that she sometimes feels the same. But it all comes back to her saying that she is in love with him and that no one knows him like she does - all these people who say that she will regret this someday.
We talked last night and this morning and she told me that she and he are so alike - their emotional needs match up closely. I suggested to her that this fact alone means that their love comes easier because they talk the same emotional need/love language. Her and I, however, have to work a bit harder to talk each other's love language -but this does not make their love right and ours wrong, just because our's takes more effort. This made her think - because she has assumed that she found her soul mate in the OM because everything seemed so right, they were on the same wavelength, etc.
So, another rambling update for anyone interested. I will let you know what happens after my telephone session with Jenn Harley next week.

HD,

Ok, it is time for me to tell you a joke. First, you realize that what we are saying is very simple for you to do, but we realize it is not easy.

Let me relay this joke.

This cowboy is at a rodeo. He is sitting on a big, angry bull, and he is wrapping and rewrapping the rope around his gloved hand. His friend is steadying him and talking to him waiting to "let'er go", and he is telling him.

" Ok, now it really is simple. You have enough points that if you stay on this bull 8 seconds, you win the championship."

The guy looks at his friend and the friend repreats, " it really is simple, just stay on that bull got it?"

The guy nods.

Two old cowboys are sitting on the fence rail near the pin, and one turns to the other and says, " That ole boy is about to learn the difference between simple and easy."

Hurtingdad, you are about to learn the difference between simple and easy, and this is going to feel like you are in a bull ride. So wrap it tight and hang on. You can do this, it really is "simple". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

Just learning:
Thanks so much for the joke with the learning attached. I have been reading and re-reading the "Detachment" information presented by Awed in a reply to someone elsewhere, and it has helped some. Not saying that I am detached yet, but it will help me to understand the "simple" things/process I need to do/follow, and hopefully help get me through what will definately not be easy. I have been able to not get as emotional about this the last few days, and I think it is more a reflection on my attempts to control how I react to her rather than me giving up/getting numb. Time, prayer and continued focus will tell.

What a difference a week can make, especially if you can really get some feedback from counselors. I started my first session with a christian counselor on Monday of this week and had a telephone session with Jennifer Harley last night. The christian counselor will be a every 1 to 2 weeks, and I feel very good about it already. I have a continuing homework assignment to help me get the frustrations/hurt out so that I can "detach" and to allow me to forgive. Please understand that forgiving in this sense is not condoning or accepting past or current behavior as ok, but it is to accept that it happened and to allow me to leave the emotions and mental anguish behind me and focus on the future and becoming a person that has less chances of LBing.

The session with Jennifer Harley was more of a making sure I understand the MB principals, making sure I am focused on plan A, and getting some feedback on the things that I have been doing that I did not consider as LB's, but that in reality were subtle ones. Good session to get me on track, but I will only telephone with her ever 30 to 45 days. Definately worth the $ the first time, but not sure it will be for the rest of Plan A as I did find out that I have a pretty good plan and am doing pretty good. If we get to the point about marital recovery, I think it would be good to have a third party (MB) work to explain some of the concepts and why they are important. Jen did explain the concept of Cognitive Dissonance" to me, which is basically when our minds are in conflict over what we know is not right, but we do it anyway (an affair), how we rationalize in any number of ways (God put the other person there for me - we are soulmates, or that my husband doesn't love me, etc.) to smooth over the conflict inside ourselves. That helped explain why what is rational thought to the rest of the world (regarding why what she is doing is wrong), has no sway over her at all.

Another important thing that I learned was that even though I pick a date for Plan A to be over (and reconginzing that it cannot go on forever), I may get to my Plan B date and can extend it if the situation warrants it. Just being flexible and knowing that that date is not set completely in stone.

The past week I really feel that I have gotten it together mentally and emotionally. I still "snoop" sometimes to try and get information via her cell phone calls, but was told that as long as I can handle what I find, do not focus on it, and do not LB, it is really not a bad thing. Just a way for me to check how things are going with her, how often she talks, etc.

My kids are still my biggest worry - how this will impact them if she does leave or if I am forced to go to Plan B at some point. But I am hopeful that we won't have to get to Plan B. So I am concentrating my energies on staying mentally, emotionally, and physically healthy and doing/saying all the right things according to Plan A.

And I know UNDERSTAND and ACCEPT that I cannot rationalize with her right now and will not be able to convince her of what should be obvious. I had been confused about using Plan A as a chance to "negotiate" the end of the affair. My idea of what negotiation is was really disrespectful judgement as I was trying to convince her to find God and how/why we could find love again. In my case, negotiation at its strongest is to provide a good environment here and to as "I would really love it if you would stop calling him so much" and if she responds negatively or closes up, to just drop the subject for awhile.

So, here I go, fully into plan A. I am going to take advantage of the times we will be together with family and make the most of our time together. Thanks so much to the wonderful people that have given their time and insights and support. You and God have carried me. I will periodically keep you informed!

Why I orginally entitled my post "Does my situation even fit MB" was because it appears so lost. My wife will not give the OM up. I have reached the end of Plan A, and have asked her to leave. She will not. She was (of course) still seeing him and sleeping with him over the past 2 months, all the while telling me that she was trying to concentrate on us and NOT seeing him. All lies of course. She is about to reap the destruction of her course of action. Her kids will suffer mentally and emotionally from the tearing apart of her family, and she can't seem to control her actions. Plan B is going to have to involve an attorney and legal separation I am afraid, as well as a custody battle. I have several perfectly legal courses of action that I will take soon.

This is just an update for anyone out there that has been reading this.

hurtingdad,

Don't dispair. Going to plan B is part of the plan after all and would NOT be necessary if Plan A was all that was needed. So if you have done a good plan A, the plan B is the normal (unfortunately) next step. I would definitely talk some more with Jennifer about this portion of the effort because in many ways it is the most difficult, yet it does seem to bring relief as well.

All is not lost, give this plenty of time and have lots of patience. The old T&P is called for.

God Bless,

JL

In General Questions II, I put up a post called "Can you file a civil Lawsuit against OM?" web page
I don't know if that worked or not, I was trying to input a link to that posting.

Anyway, I am in a desparate struggle with the Taker in me. I can either continue the negative things I have done the past week (see post) or go back to the MB principals. Thanks JustLearning for your continued support. God has definately blessed me in so many ways and he has stayed with me through all of this.

Wife won't leave and I cannot fathom not seeing my kids every day. I am seeing a christian counselor. Told wife yesterday that I did not think we would make it and that I was ready to make the necessary changes to cut her off financially (lawyer told me all that I can do legally). Hope was to get her to move out, have her see how she could not live without kids every day, see the man for what he was- in effect, Plan B. She was out with the other guy from 3 pm to midnight last night. Not sure she was coming home, I was prepared mentally to take the day off work to get my 11 month old into daycare and take my 5 year old to school. My 5 year old knows something is terribly wrong and had nightmares last night calling out for "Mommy". But wife came home at midnight and said they talked, went back and forth, and she said that there are some things one HAS to do, not necessarily WANTS to do. She said that by the time we went to bed today (Monday), it would be over for good. She would stop running in the place that he shows up at, she would go to my Christian counselor for marriage counseling, etc. That she wanted to work on her marriage, that this is where she belonged, etc. So now I have to speed read the sections of the book Surviving an Affair, about the things we need to agree on to try and make this work. Then this morning, she felt so bad, not sure she can do this (never see him again), etc. I gave her all the support I could, but had to go to work (I took a lot of days off over the holidays to be with her and the kids). Frankly, I don't think that she is going to be able to do it, and that in a week or two I will wish I took the measures to cut her off financially to let her know that I was moving on. Just an update for those following this sad saga.