I'm so sorry to hear what you have been going through. I absolutely remember the pain of living with a cake-eater. I was surprised that I didn't see more anguish from WS about leaving his daughter, but now I realize he had to rationalize it so that it didn't hurt so much.

I wish there was more to read about the OP. I believe that what the OP does and/or says is important in how/when the A ends. OW in my case did not want to be responsible for breaking up a family, but it sounds like OM is helping your wife feel better about what she is doing.

I was in the same situation. WS wouldn't leave. And if I left, I would definitely have to tell everyone why. Yes, definitely read SAA. Unfortunately, this is the exact situation for Plan A -- when WS can't stop contact with OP. I just could not imagine continuing Plan A for so long, but I took whatever strength I could find anywhere. Even if it meant staying in Plan A for one more day.

I believe Plan B is for saving your sanity as well. What if you did leave? Then that means WS can't be out from 3pm to midnight when she has babies to take care of. Maybe it's time to give her a taste of what it will be like to be a single mom.

Hurting,

I just now read thru your entire post. I am very sorry for the pain you are in.

I am the WS, my husband does not know of the A. Trying to put down all the details would take too long right now, I am actually at work.

I am trying to fight my way out of the fog that having an affair puts you in.

I had a counsoler tell me once that for some marriages, having an affair is the way that one spouse can deal with staying "happilied" married and therefore, not break up the family. I do not see that counsoler anymore. Somewhere in my heart I KNOW that is not the way I want to be.

The bottomline is that after much effort, my husband and I are in a much better place, but i am still not really 100% out of this fog. I figure I must sound extremely selfish, because why should it be so hard for me, i am not the one that was betrayed. I was the one having her cake and eating it too. and yet i guess i was, in the sense that there was a lot of emotional neglect that occured prior to me getting to my breaking point. I choose the wrong path on how to deal with breaking. and then once i took that path, i became extremely addicted to it. I've never had trouble being addicted to alcohol, drugs, cigerettes or even caffenee. I can't believe how hard this has been for me to stop.

Reading your post allows me to so clearly see my husband's perspective on it all and how much pain it would cause him. and that is helping me choose better today. I was so close to crossing that line again. I don't know why keeping my marriage vows has become such a large effort now. The first 15yrs I did not have this problem.

So, I wanted to thank you for sharing so much.

I hope your situation improves. I don't know what more I can say, the advice others have given you has been wonderful. I doubt there is any thing I can say to be of any help.

take care of yourself and your daughters!!

lbc: Good to hear from you again! How is it going? I am going to find your posting and catch up after I finish this. You said:

"I wish there was more to read about the OP. I believe that what the OP does and/or says is important in how/when the A ends. OW in my case did not want to be responsible for breaking up a family, but it sounds like OM is helping your wife feel better about what she is doing."

Well, my wife and I do talk a lot still, which is a good sign I guess, so I know some of what he is telling her. Plus, over the holidays I took her cell phone for a few days (I know, I know, major LB) and listened to 16 voice mails from him(one day's worth, 2 minutes each). So I heard first hand his conniving remarks. He has offered to "give" her $20,000 (out of his family's savings) so that she would have money and could leave me. He is trying to convince her that her daughters would be happier seeing their Mom happy than be in a marriage where she was unhappily missing her "soulmate". He text messages her several times a day and they talk several times a day. That is why by taking her cell phone, I thought I could cause him to flip out and make it harder for them to communicate. Of course she just went to a pay phone and still saw him. He definately speaks with a forked tounge. She, of course, cannot see it. She feels that she is responsible for his happiness, since he has told her that she is is only hope for joy and peace in life, he loves her, blah, blah, blah. You've heard it all yourself I am sure.

I go back and forth, daily sometimes, between 1.)cutting her off financially and asking her to leave, and 2.)telling myself to endure the pain for the sake of my children and the possibility that she will end this and we can one day reconcile. I understand that she must end it of her own free will, but it does not appear that she will ever get there. And she wants to continue to see him, which causes me so much pain and anguish. I cannot see going to plan B by leaving and splitting time with the kids because I cannot fathom not being able to see my 2 lovely daughters every day - plus it might be construed as abandonment in some fashion. I love my daughters so much and they have been a wonderful source of joy though all this pain.

FinallyLearning: I am glad that my posting provided some benefit to you. Your comment on addiction rings true. Unfortunatley my wife is addicted to cigarettes and she is definately addicted to this OM. I am no counselor, but you should consider Steve Harley when he says that not telling your spouse is not only disrespectful, but it likely doesn't help you end the affair. Please stay strong and true to your marriage!

Hurting, I will stay true <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It has been a long 2 1/2 years but I really believe 2004 will be a wonderful one for us.

As for telling my husband, I don't think I will ever do that. I did not give you all the details about my marriage here, but I know he would not be able to deal with it, maybe i am selling him short, maybe not. The counsoler we were going to did know, she did not push for me to tell him either. I see how it can seem disrespectful, but i don't think i should tell him in order for it to be easier on me to make sure i stay true. that seems very cruel to me. of course you are in his shoes so maybe you know better, but i have to wonder myself, if he had an affair and it was over, would i want to know? i sincerly don't think i would. If it was resolved, if he found his way back to me, I personally would rather be left in the dark. again, maybe i am decieving myself, but for now anyway, this is my cross to bear and mine alone.

again i wish you much luck as you continue to try to work out your marriage.

I will tell you this, the thing that kept me going more than anything was thought of breaking up the family. I could not stand the idea of not seeing them everyday and even more so, i could not stand the thought of my husband not seeing them everyday. There must of been some part of me that kept loving him enough to not want to see him in so much pain. I really never thought i could get close to him again, the best i thought i would do is to "deal" with staying married until the kids were grown. this was one of the excuses that allowed me to continue the affair.

Do you think your wife is really prepared to break up the family. you are still talking, that is very encouraging.

about 2 yrs ago, when he finally realized i was serious about leaving, he came down one night after i had fallen asleep on the couch (we were not sleeping together at the time) and he woke me up and in the dark apologized for ignoring our problems for so long and not realizing how bad things were. I could not accept his apology at the time. but i did write about it and about 6 weeks ago, I happened across it and re-read what i wrote. i had captured his intensity when he gave the apology even though i did not let it get into my heart. when i read it that night, i was finally able to let it in. and i literally finally told him that i accepted his apology. he recalled the night i was talking about too. In Retrovaille (which is an organization that holds weekends for troubled marriages along with followup sessions for 6 weeks after the weekend, and a contining support group, let me know if you want to know more about that, the experience helped us), there was a session about forgiveness and the importance of literally accepting an apology outloud. it took me a long time to be able to do it, but it was huge when it happened. there were still some bumps we had to get over, but right now we are doing very well, and that is how i want to keep it.

Have you asked your wife for fogiveness for the hurt you may have caused her in the earlier years of your marriage? I suppose that might sound outragous to ask you to do, afterall, she is the one that cheated on you, but it may still be something worth considering.

it is true, sometimes i start to feel weak and almost consider doing something stupid again, i don't know why that is, but i am going to keep working at it, i will not give up. it feels very good to finally be able to honestly say "I want this marriage to survive and prosper" I hope your wife can find her way back too.

i think i rambled on a bit, hope you don't mind.

FinallyLearning: I tend to ramble a bit too, so not a problem. I find it is a great source of personal therapy to write about all this. The encouragement of others and feedback is just an added bonus. I understand your feelings about not wanting to tell your husband - if you truly have changed and will never go back to the OM. In response to your question about whether or not I have truly apologized for what I did to allow our marriage to get to this stage: absolutely. And I did so again last night as part of a big development, as I will relate below.

Update for all those interested:
I had a session with my Christian counselor last night and we decided that it was time to implement, Plan B. I am amazed (shouldn't be, but am) that a majority of the MB principals are the same as those put forth by counselors who have never even heard of the site. I have known in my gut for about a month now that Plan B was in order, but was too terrified to pull the trigger. Afraid of what it might mean to my children, afraid of what it might mean to me, afraid of what it might mean to my marriage. On the last fear (marriage), my counselor has been walking me through the fact that I really no longer have a marriage. As she puts it, the four pillars of marriage (Trust, Commitment, Mutual Respect, and Open Communication) no longer exist. My wife has shattered our marriage vows. We are living together but not really married in any sense of what a real marriage is. We do still love each other, but are not in any condition to rebuild at this point. She needs therapy to end the affair and deal with her issues of dishonesty and love. I need therapy to deal with the fact that I will have difficulty ever trusting another woman again.

My counselor and I decided that I needed to tell my wife that I could no longer accept a 3 way relationship (her, me, OM) and that I have decided to move on with my life. That I need to heal and learn how to be a better person so that I can be a better husband to whomever I might meet someday. That I deserve better than this and that I am releasing her so that she can see the OM. But:
- I am asking her to do the honorable thing and to move out by January 18th
- Until she leaves, I no longer want to sleep in the same bed with her, and am asking her to do the honorable thing and sleep in another bed for now
- We need to separate our finances
- We need to discuss how we are going to explain to our 5 year old that Mommy will not be living with us

She can still come over and see the kids anytime she wants so that no one views it as abandonment and so that her kids can see their Mom. That I wanted her to see her kids and spend time with them as much as she wants. But she needs to call first so that we can make sure it fits into our schedule. I indicated that this whole situation we are currently in is not providing for a stable environment for anyone. That if she moved out and I moved on with my life, I could concentrate on providing that stable environment for our children. I told her that I still have love for her and that I want to preserve what I have left in case we could ever reconcile someday. I would like the opportunity someday, but before we can even discuss it:
- She needs to get therapy (she has a huge issue with dishonesty)
- She will need to have ended her relationship with the OM, and show proof
- She and I will need to go to marriage counseling and not come back together until the counselor says it makes sense to do so

She reacted in complete disbelief at first, then shock, then crying. I had prayed before hand for the abilty to stay firm, calm, and have the words to get her to see this for what it is. She said she had always thought I was "her paper tiger" and that she could not believe I was doing this. She said she could not leave her kids, that she never intended it to get this far, that she always thought she would end it with the OM before I got to this point. She tried to ask if I would still ask her to move out if she ended it with him and I said yes, and went over everything again (actually 2 more times) so that she could understand why this next step was necessary. She refused to sleep in another bed last night, but I indicated that I would continue to ask her to do so and would help set up another bed in a separate room. I also told her I would help her get an apartment or find someone she could live with. She said she could not leave and I again asked her to respect my request and do the right thing. She has been telling me for 5 months that she would like the opportunity to "date" this other guy and I told her that this would be the perfect opportunity to do so. She is not currently working, and is fearful of not being able to support herself. (But you need to understand that the OM has indicated that he would support her - so I told her she should take him up on his offer).

Most people, even those that read this thread have no idea as to hoops I have jumped through to try and convince her that I could not hold on forever, that she was withdrawing love units at a fast pace every time she saw him. I tried desperately to negotiate an end to the affair, and besides a few major LBs, did a pretty decent Plan A.

This is in no way a whim, nor is it a bluff. I am making a break from her as it cannot continue as is and she has refused to end things with him - and she has had many, many opportunities. That said, I would love the opportunity to reconcile with her someday. I realize that the risk is that I may have completely moved on by that point - or that as she put it she gets "stuck" in a relationship with the OM. (he is so dependent on her, an easily depressed individual, etc.) My wife met with my counselor last week and had a whole host of issues presented to her about what her life would be like if she leaves and tries to make it with the OM. So she is somewhat aware of the consequences of her actions, but still in that fog.

For those of you that pray, please say a prayer for my wife that she can, of her own free will, do all that needs to be done so that we can eventually have the opportunity to try and reconcile.

hurting: I will pray for the strength that you will need to get through this and for your wife to finally realize what she would be losing.

Unfortunately, it sounds like Plan B is the right thing for you at this time. Your wife never thought you would get to this point? She is efinitely a cake-eater. I would ask WS from time to time if he figured I would never leave. He told me no, but actions speak louder than words, right?

I do think your wife will come to her senses. She has already indicated that life with OM would not be all roses (he's emotionally dependent on her, etc).

As for us, I haven't posted in awhile. WS has been NC for almost 3 weeks. I'm surprised that there hasn't been much withdrawal, but OW didn't make desperate pleas of love and that bothered WS. Besides, I believe we've both realized in the past couple of weeks how full our lives really are and how much we have to look forward to. We don't have a specific plan for recovery, but I'm reading SAA. WS has been making some monumental changes and he says he can see some in me. He has apologized three times already, which I didn't expect. I haven't said the "F" word (forgive), but sometimes I do feel that I have forgiven him. We are still struggling, but at least we're trying.

to be completely fair, there is still some contact that occurs, but not with the intention of getting together. i will never be with the OM again (or any other). he also does not ever want to get together either. he is sincerly happy to hear that the marriage is getting better. I want to be the me i originally planned on being all my life. and that is not someone who cheats on her husband. The OM knows that is the type of person i am capable of being too and he wants me to be that person. he also does not want to be the type of person that sleeps with a married woman, he is better than that as well and i want him to be his best.

i remember telling someone in college when i was engaged... he was a less than positive type of person and made a comment that no marriage could ever last. affairs are inevitable. i remember telling him "I'm going to have an affair WITH my husband!" in my best cocky/fiesty tone.

well, that was 20+ yrs ago, i guess you can never say never. so i don't know if i will never tell him, but i am not going to tell him now. i just want us to heal and get closer.

i am sorry you had to go into plan B, but it does sound like it was manditory. i cannot understand how she could be surprised. how can anyone expect their spouse to put up with an affair for any amount of time. reading thru these posts, i am amazed and quite impressed with the amount of people that are capable of that. i know i am capable of forgiving an affair if my husband would have one, although i don't see him ever doing that. of the two of us, i am the weaker more implusive one. but i don't know how i could hang in there if once discovered, it did not end immediately.

you should be proud of yourself hurting, you will come out of this a better person. and you will help your daughter thru too. i hope things take a turn for the better for you.

incidentally, it was the act of telling the kids we were seperating, which occured about 8 months after i told him i wanted out (8 months after A started), that made me stop my moving ahead with the divorcing. their reaction was so sad to see, i don't know what i expected. i couldn't bear the idea of splitting up the family, at any costs. so i stayed, feeling quite trapped for a while. for a long while, i am can be implusive, but i am also stubborn. "I'll stay, but he can't make me ever love him again" we did start counsoling and participated in Retrovaille. but i was not 100% into it, and i continued with the OM. near the end, we would say goodbye, swear to each other it would never happen again as i got closer and closer to wanting to truely try to be close to my husband, but we sould slip occasionally. for a long time, it continued to be my secret rebelling act and it was so addictive because it was so intense.

so marriage improvement was very slow if any progress was being made at all. i guess progress was being made, internally, i was slowly starting to feel like i could trust and believe that he really wanted a close relationship with me. it just took me a long time to finally be sure enough to take the chance. that is when i FINALLY forgave him for the past and i was able to move forward, that is when i became sure that i would no longer be with the OM.

maybe the reality of this will sink in for her now and she will start on her path back to you. i will keep you in my prayers.

lbc,

good luck in your marriage. it sounds like you guys are on a good path. keep it up!!!!

as for forgiving him... once you are truely able too, you will be amazed at how good it will be for you too. but you can't just say the words, you have to mean it. i know right before my break through which is when i was able to accept his apology, i started praying specifically for the ability to forgive our past, not really just him, our past, i had plenty to do with the breakdown of our marriage too. just know that there is much peace that comes with forgiveness.

ya know, i am not sure i ever gave him an apology for my part of the marriage breakdown. maybe i did, but i think i may just do it again. i know he will be touched by it and i know it will result in both of us feeling good.


i am very lucky to have found this website.

hurtingdad:

I was reading your thread and wanted to say how sorry I am for what you are going thru. It sounds like from what I have been reading that you are doing a great job and I think you are on the right path.

It is time for your wife to start acting like a wife and I think your plan B action is the right thing to do.

I did have a question for you and I hope I don't upset you by what I am going to ask. You have a 11 month old daughter and I thought your thread said that your wife and the OM have been having some sex since 2001. Are you sure you are the father of the baby?

I think you said they were having oral sex in 2001 if that is true then it wouldn't be shock if they were also having other kinds of sex that could create a baby? Again I am not asking to upset you but I was wondering if this thought crossed your mind or not.

I want to wish you the best no matter what happens with your marriage. Make sure you take care of yourself and your children.

DadandHusband:
Fair question about the paternity of my 11 month old. I preface what I am about to say with the fact that I know that I could not believe anything that my WS or the OM says or said. Long story, but I am pretty convinced that the "real" sex did not start until June of 2003, both from talking to the OM's wife and my WS. Also, my daughter looks so much like me, that I cannot believe it. Not sure that I would ever want to know as it may affect how I relate to my daughter, with whom I have bonded. At no point has the OM tried to claim this (and given that he has tried every trick in the book to get my wife to leave, he would have used this as a wedge by now, I believe).

LBC: Thanks for the prayers. God is listening and helping. My wife is just too blind right now to see. Please take care that your WS is not covering up and that you can guarantee the NC. The part I worry about for you and for me (if I ever get there) is that the WS will not be able to follow through with the recovery and NC. For me, Plan B was a must, although since she still has not agreed to move out yet, I am not really fully into Plan B yet. So even though I do see her every day, it is so hard to do this. I am going to see this through, but do not yet fully comprehend what not seeing her will mean. And I worry about my kids. But, my WS will have to shoulder the discomfort as well, as well as the blame if this damages our children psychologically or if they one day really dislike her for having done this to our one-time happy home. Best of luck and I will pray for your continued strength and ability to build a marriage that is happy and will last a lifetime!

FinallyLearning: I don't mean to beat you up about this and I don't want to insult you. But the same lack of internal strength and conviction you had that enabled the affair to happen in the first place could retun if you see the other person. Are you SURE you will not deviate again? All it could take is a moment of weakness, an argument with your spouse, etc. I hope you truly take care of your marriage and build one that is affair proof. You may want to read the book "Building an Affair-Proof Marriage" by Dr. Harley. I am sure the concepts in there will allow you to never stray again. My wife knows I use this site to post and I hope that she goes in to look at what you have had to say as someone that was in the middle of the fog and yet shook it off and decided that her marriage was the most important thing to work on.

Thank you all for the encouragement and support as I begin this next phase. It is tough holding down a full time job with all the pressures there and trying to be everything I can to my kids. I believe that I can do it if I can emotionally remove myself from this. I can then put my energies into my kids and my job. If my wife does the right thing and ends the affair, gets help and wants to reconcile, that will be everything I have been praying for. But if she does not, I need to become a stronger and better person than I have been the past 5 months.

HurtingDad,

Hang in there. I too hope she will find her way back.

i do not feel beat up or insulted, thank you for stating that first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> yes, i seem to have had a lack of internal strength and convinction, i know that. so i can't sit here and gaurentee you or even myself that I now have that internal strength. But I certainly am working on it. I will never see that person again, face to face. at most it would be an email, i am convinced the emails will stop too. I have commited to myself that I will never be the one to initiate an email.

I have commited to never getting online again, which has to include even playing backgammon. This I intend on telling my husband and asking him for help in making sure i stick to that promise. He is aware that I have struggled with internet misuse in the past. I don't do it often anymore, but i have occasionally, even recently, and that is something i HAVE to stay far, far away from. That could be a downfall for me and I want no chance of that happening.

I will look at the book you mentioned.

if i can be of any help, i would be extremely happy too. i hope your wife does make it here. i know the power of the kindness of a stranger. we were helped dramatically by the kindness of the people at Retrovaille.

would you be interested in info on that organization? a weekend retreat might be a good thing for you two. not sure if the timing is exactly right for you or not. you can get info at http://www.retrouvaille.org

FinallyLearning:
Thanks so much for the info on Retrovaille. I have been meaning to ask you for that! You are right, the timing is not right yet, but I hope it is soon.

I will pray that you have the strength to stay away from those items that make it easy to wander dangerously close to contact with the OP. As I have tried to tell my wife, the easier it is for her to contact him or vice versa, the easier it will be for her to slip up and not focus on her marriage (that is, if we ever get to the point that she is willing to give him up). Have you ever thought of counseling to help you overcome your Internet misuse? If it is right there at your fingertips, It will be hard to give up. Perhaps it is a form of addiction, and someone educated in helping people overcome this sort of thing would be a great help to you.

Last night, she calculated the number of days we have been together since we were married (3,011). If you add up the 7 or 8 years we dated prior to marriage, it is much longer. She then said that this marriage is too important to her, that she does not want to break a vow to me again, and that she was planning on going out to see him. Well, I told her that if she left, to not bother coming home as I would have a bag packed for her on the porch and have the doors barred. I am sick and tired of her feeling that she can continue this affair from the safety of our home. I have removed her access to our checking and savings accounts as best I can without actually changing accounts. I also asked for and received all her credit cards that have me on the accounts. After seeing my dedication to follow this through or whatever, she was on her cell phone with him for 2 hours last night (until 1 am) and supposedly ended things. I of course do not believe it, and asked her to do one of two things:
1. If she means it, then she needs to voluntarily give up her cell phone and we need to discuss ways/methods to keep her and him from coming into contact (he is a persistant SOB), she needs to seek better counseling than she is receiving now, we need to get marriage counseling, etc.
2. If she changes her mind, she needs to open up her own checking account and transfer her auto loan to this account so that I do not have to pay for it (it is deducted automatically from the account each month). This way, if/when she leaves, we already have this stuff in place and it is one less thing to worry about.

I am praying that she means it and has the strength to end things with the OM. If not, I am trying to prepare for the worst. Time will tell.

hurting,

thanks for the encouragement. i just now deleted my yahoo id. i was already starting to justify that it is ok to just continue to play backgammon, as long as i don't start chatting. well that is b***s***. it is 100% wrong for me to continue anything like that because that is how i met the OP, in a chat room. and i tended to get into inappropriate chats with various other people as well. i think, for the normal person, playing games, like backgammon, online is perfectly fine. but i am not in that category any more, nor will i ever be. i am an addict to that sort of stuff, and i have to accept that fact. just like an alcoholic cannot have even one small drink, i have to have the fortitude to stay away 100%.

Plain and simply i am scared to death of IC. I am afraid of what might be uncovered. My childhood was not the greatest. I have no memories of the time while my parents were married. They divorced when i was in 2nd grade. my dad had an affair with a nun (also a friend of the family), she left the convent and they were married immediately. I had a superficial and extremely painful relatinship with my dad his entire life. on his death bed, i refued to allow the converstation to go anywhere near the topic of our relationship. He died almost 3yrs ago. It was actually his death that seemed to put this whole thing in motion.

i am the youngest of 4 kids. none of us had a good relationship with my dad. we were all a mess through out the last stage of his cancer and his death. the sister, 13months older than me, states dad sexually abused her. she has been saying that for many years now, even before he died. he denied it all. the rest of us don't know what to make of her acusations. i would rather NOT KNOW!

now that i think about that last stmt, it does not surprise me that i am so strongly against telling H about affair. i know, most people here would say, well i have the right to decide that i don't want to know something. i should give my H that same right to decide for himself. but i'm still going to have to let that issue rest for the moment.

ok, so i have rambled again like crazy. i wish i could be of some help for you. i will keep you in my prayers.

one more thing, Richard F just came back from a retrouvaille weekend (see his post in prayers)

i hope one day, that might be something that could work for you. ironically, it was a person i chatted with that told me about that orginzation.