Any advice or guidance from any of you is much appreciated.

WH and I have been back in the same house for 6 weeks now (after 2 months living apart). Things have been pretty good. WH and OW called things off 6 weeks ago also, and H is now going thru w/d, which I told him about, told him I understood what he would be going thru and that I would help him thru it. Needless to say, the last 6 weeks have been an emotional rollercoaster. One weekend, he's all over me, proclaiming his love for me, saying he has NO DESIRE to call OW, and that he really thinks w/ some work, he and I would "make it." Then a few days later, he's withdrawn, and distant again. I've been Plan A'ing to the best of my abilities, purely being the giver, without getting any of my EN's filled in return.

WH went to see his IC last friday, and when he returned, he was distant, and trying to stay busy. He ended up drinking (another issued he's trying to deal with) with some friends that night, and didn't come home at all. Of course, I'm thinking that in a moment of drunken stupidity, he may have called OW and ended up with her, or perhaps some other barfly...

Anyway, he crawled home the next am and told me he knew I was upset, but that he had hit "Rock bottom," the night before, needed some sleep and that we'd talk when he got up. My H has always been fairly dramatic, so when he says "rock bottom," I can only assume it's another excuse for his irresponsible behavior and a ploy for me to offer sympathy to him. Sorry, not gonna happen this time.

When he woke up, he said that he had drank too much again and that he knew he need help. He said he was so messed up and so confused about everything. I asked him if he wanted to be back with OW. He said, "I don't know." I just lost it and told him, "Well, maybe you should just pack up your s*#t and move in with her. Part of me wants you to be with her, so you can realize once and for all that it's all a fantasy, you two will never make it. No matter how much she claims to love you, it's not a fraction of the love I have for you." He just looked at me in silence, like he couldn't believe his ears. He grabbed me, held me and told me that he knows he "shouldn't be with her," he's just so confused about what he really wants.

The next two days were just sad days. I told him I just don't know where I fit in his life anymore, what role do I play? I almost feel like the OW myself, because we no longer do things as a couple out in public. He told me he understood how I feel.

WH's therapist believes he needs to learn how to be by himself. He can't be alone, and even when we tried it, he always ended up calling either me or OW, or ended up being with one of us (usually OW, of course). So, he's proposing that he leave the house. He swears he will not go back to her, that he really needs to work on self-improvement, for his health, and to become the dad he used to be.

H and OW still work at the same place, and periodically, she will say something to him, just to get in his head. She's young and immature, and I've warned WH of her tactics. WH listens to me when I talk to him about OW, and he's told me that when he talks to others about her, they tell him the same things. And most of those people KNOW the OW. Don't get me wrong, I'm not holding my breath about anything. After all, this is their fourth breakup.

My question for you all... Since WH is in withdrawal, would it be best for me to try and convince him to stay in the house, and Plan A my butt off!!!? Or, if he really wants to go, should I give him the conditions of Plan B and tell him that it will not be like before. He will not be able to be the cakeeater that he was before.

BTW, WH has a nine yr old son he shares custody with, and he and I have together a three yr old and six week old. So, the kids are another factor. Plus, WH talks like he'll leave after the holidays. But, I'm so hurt by the reality of his feeling for OW, that I'm almost to the point that I want him to go thru the holidays without his family. (tough love, I guess) I really do not want to gamble with Plan B, but I'm at such a loss.

What do you all think out there?

Thanks, MOP

BS-Me 32
WH-(on the brink of "30" if that means anything)
met Oct 95
married March 99
EA 3/03
Dday May 30, 03
Went PA 8/03
H and OW broke up Oct 28,03

How long did his A last for this time and what were the previous ones?. Are you ready to push him to OW and let OW tries to fullfill all his ENs and take his LB ?. Last ones ... very important ... does he allow you to fillin his ENs at all or distance ?. What were his reactions when you fillin his ENs ?. Cold, indiff, warm, happy, or try to make you happy too ?.

-rh-

redhat,
It's only been one A, and it started EA back in March of this yr, then, went PA in Aug. So, it's been 9 mos. now. Unfortunately, I left the home back in Aug, because I just couldn't handle being around when the OW would call, WH would call OW, or when he would leave to see OW. I was 7 mos. pregnant at the time, and it was killing me to feel like I was allowing my H to have a gf on the side. After I spent 2 mos. away, I realized (I know, I'm a little slow sometimes, denial maybe?)I was just enabling the A, and came back home. At the same time, our baby was born and the A came to an end. I think in a way, my H felt pressured to do the right thing because the baby was on the way.

But through his therapy, he told me he is realizing that the A was probably an addiction. (I knew this back when it first started, my H has been addicted to MANY things, and quit them all). He gets the same gratification by just talking to OW on the phone, as he would have if he had just had a "fix."

As far as ENs go... he does allow me to fulfill them, in fact, tells me when he needs something, etc... (He's never had a problem letting me treat him like a King, lol), and he has made attempts to comfort me and help around the house a little bit. But right now, he still doesn't realize that I'm hurting by his betrayal, just like he's been hurt by OW's betrayal. (She's slept around on WH). I express to him that I know in the past I didn't meet all his needs, and that OW probably meets those I don't. He told me that was true, but that I also meet some needs OW doesn't meet. I haven't gotten into specifics as to who meets which needs, all I concentrate on is giving my all to a pretty NEEDY husband. (As exhausting as it may be with a needy 3 yr old and needy 6 wk old!!!) When I do tend to his ENs, he is very accepting. Affection is high on the list, one thing he complained that our M lacked 9 mos. ago, so I've tried to turn that up a notch, but don't want to be too clingy... It's hard, because I don't want to be annoying, either...

He sees his IC next friday, and he wants to talk to her again about living seperately, which it sounds to me like she is supporting, in order for H to get his head clear.

I'm just so torn as to which way to go. Pump up Plan A, if I can convince him to stay? Or switch gears to a Plan B?

MOP

Well I've been thinking about this for awhile. I really think you should stay in Plan A. Your H is showing signs of being sorry and realizing that he might be making a mistake. I would give it more time, especially in light of what the counselor says about him needing to learn to live alone. My H is exactly the same - he cannot be alone. I was like you and felt if he loves OW so much let her have him - he'll be sorry in the end. So I put him out of the house. He swore he wanted our marriage and would not be with her. A month later she moved in with him. The bad part now is we have no contact while OW is meeting all of his needs. I on the other hand am glad to be off the rollercoaster, and the longer he is gone, the less I care. I don't believe their relationship will last - she is 15 years younger than him and still very close to her husband. Also my H and her are very different. At some point I think she will dump him. But that will not help our marriage. Anyway sorry to go on and on, but I think you need to give H a little longer to come to his senses. I think the counselor may be wrong - in the midst of an affair is not the time to get used to being alone - chances are very good that he will not work on himself, he will go to OW.

MOP, its funny how hindsight is so much clearer than foresight. Your story sounds so much like mine not too long ago. Listen to those who offer advice, redhat, has always made the road clearer and is always right on track.
Regarding your WS leaving and trying to get him to stay, something our IC told my ws and I in times of turmoil, "now is not the time to make any drastic changes" When I was ready to quit or ws was or I was ready to leave or ws was etc etc. He would say wait until things are clearer and you know for sure. When you are in turmoil is not the time to do something that you may regret.
It enabled both of us to basically agree to do nothing for a set amount of time, although he also doesn't believe in stating that time because usually by the time it rolls around your outlook has changed. it that makes sense.
Km4

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mother of Pearl:
<strong>I'm just so torn as to which way to go. Pump up Plan A, if I can convince him to stay? Or switch gears to a Plan B?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is my 2¢. You only separate when there is physical dangers ... in time of trouble you want to be close to the love one and not away. I would suggest you to write PBL. If he decided to move you give the letter to him. Tell him that you need H that step up to the plate if he moves you have no choice but to plan B him, you can't do this alone. Meanwhile fillin his ENs as much as you can and even more. Make it memorable for him so that when he moves he only could lick his finger remembering the taste of the chicken. Have you talk to his IC ? or you just rely on his words about moving out ?

When WH hot and cold ... the minimum he might still have contact with OW. Staying in plan A while he is away would really drained your LB$ and you need to protect it.

-rh-

redhat,
I would truly like to continue Plan A, but WH came home last night and said he would be leaving. We then had a heart to heart discussion, very calm. I did start to cry however, and reminded him that we had tried "separation" before, and it only made he and I more distant, and he and OW closer. I told him I felt if we were to do this then there's no hope for us. He told me that his therapist stresses that in order for him to give himself completely to me again, he has to be over OW. I had told him in a previous conversation, that I needed him 100%, I couldn't have a H sitting in our house, thinking of OW. His therapist believes if he stays in our home, while in love w/ both, our M will not survive. But, he also said that he could not be with OW, because he's certainly not over me, or ready to give me up.

No, I haven't spoken to WH's C due to confidentiality, but H did divuldge that she can't believe the insight H has. He shared something that he didn't really want to, because he knew I would take it wrong. He said his therapist said that my H has never lived for himself... I stopped him in his tracks, and reminded him that that's all he HAD been doing for the last 9 mos!!! He said that he knew that, and further explained, that his childhood was fairly chaotic. He's the oldest of 4, dad was absent alcoholic, and mom often worked 3 jobs to make ends meet. He's thinking that part of his attraction to OW is her chaotic lifestyle. Our M was often in a rut, as they get, and H thinks he saw that OW needed him to maybe "pull it together," so to speak. Well, if it's chaos he wanted, he certainly got it, cuz his life's a mess all the way around, now. I asked him if he didn't feel needed at home, and even joked that I could create plenty of chaos for him. He laughed and said, "it's not that I don't feel needed. I don't know what it is, that's what I have to figure out."

He said that he'd stop by every day, to see me and kids. I told him I wasn't sure I'd want it to be like that. We tried that before, and it was too hard for me to watch him come and go. He understood. So, I'm in the process of drafting PBL, as much as it kills me.

One last thing... He did tell me he regrets everything, and if he could take back that first day he sat down with OW, he would. He also apologized for keeping me in limbo for so long. Does it sound like the fog is lifting at all?

Sorry so long...
MOP

MOP,

Don't beleive what he said at all. You might find out that OW would be with him the moment he moves out. I would suggest you to finish up your PBL ASAP, you will need it sooner than you think.

Talk to Harley if you could afford it.

-rh-

MOP, Again sounds like my WS. Caretaker of 3 brothers with two alcoholic parents. Totally chaotic life. In fact today in IC he realized how odd it was that his parents shipped him off to relatives from the day school was out to the day it started. He always thought of it as normal. I don't know if your ws would say this but mine has learned he didn't have good role models to be a good husband and a good father. He's learning.
And close to the beginning of IC he said the same thing to me, that he never has lived for himself but for others at first it was hurtful because I like you thought thats what he had been doing but he eventually learned that he was always trying fix other people lives and trying to win approval by doing or giving things to others whether they appreciated it or not. Again he has made great strides and give only to those that he wants and who appreciate it.
Have you asked your WS what he wants, wether to move out or not. I find it odd, although I'm no expert, that his IC would suggest it. Our IC knows nothing of MB but his beliefs are similiar luckily. He believes the only way to regain love is to spend time together and no time with OW. He keeps telling WS to when he thinks about OW to null out those feellings and don't let them grow, but to spend time with me and family. During the past 16 months there have been many times I have wondered why WS stayed and even our IC thought he would leave, several times I asked him to leave when I just couldn't stand the pain any longer and each time he said he didn't want too although he didn't know if he wanted to stay married to me either. Now I ask him why? why did you never leave and he said I knew deep down that I wouldn't have found the answers elsewhere either and that I would have been cutting certain ties that I might never get back if I left.
So ask your ws is this what he wants or what someone else thinks he should do.
Also I understand your WS is seeing and IC but see if she would be willing to work with both of your seperatly. I found our IC first and he wouldn't take on WS at first due to conflict of interest although if we had come in together as for marriage counseling he would have also seen us seperately, anyway, after many failed IC mine finally agreed to take us both on seperately and he does keep it seperate, never discusses the other one, but he gets both sides not in a "I need to get my side across" just different perspectives. When I think WS means one thing IC can help me realize since he knows thats not what WS means.
KM4

km4,
My H is very easily influenced by what others say or think. I can always tell when he and OW are on the "outs,", because that's when he comes around to me and starts talking about our chances. If he talks to someone in the family, for example, and they support us staying together, then he's all over me. But, if he hangs out with a single friend, or talks to a single friend, or is getting along with OW, he's distant towards me. So, as far as the moving out goes, I really couldn't say for sure if it's something he truly wants, or someone put in his head. (OW, single friend, therapist?) But, he continues to talk like he will, although, there's no date set. I've also asked him to leave. In fact, last weekend, I told him to pack his stuff and move in with OW, just to get a taste of reality. He's still here. But, I'm miserable, because I just don't know what he wants from me, or who I am in his life anymore.

Regarding the therapist. I saw her first for myself, and started looking for someone for H, and couldn't find anyone I clicked with, or would take on a patient who is actively abusing any substance (alcohol). So, I asked if she would take on H, and she agreed, but said he would be her patient, and suggested I find another C for myself. Then, if down the road, H and I are ready for MC, then she'd either take us on, or we'd start fresh with someone else. But, we're not even close to that point, yet.

Where are you in your situation? Is the A over, are you in recovery? I'm just feeling so lost right now. I have a feeling H either no longer truly loves me, or is starting to detach himself. He's just not the same.

MOP